Either you deliberately missed my point, or you aren't as bright as you seem.

There often is no "back to the ground", as you're already there. E.g. traverses, really steep problems, etc. Other times you can jump or reach high to start at a different place and work moves.

Either way you are working moves to practice them, which is the same thing as hangdogging on a route. Considering one unethical is inconsistent and contrived.

Hangdogging is what makes sense logically if you want to learn moves or techniques, so it's not the contrivance. Show me a strong trad climber who follows the old religion, and you'll see that they (e.g. you) did it by "hangdogging" on boulder problems.

But in climbing, for example, the tradition of lowering after a fall is simply bad redpoint tactics---a contrived way of making things harder

And that redpointing (or sport climbing in general [aka aerial bouldering]) came into play in the 5.12 and above zone because clean trad leads simply were no longer possible is one thing and I completely understand that. However (and what a lot of trad folks have a problem with is), the [mass] application of these tactics and "ethics" to lesser climbs - i.e. dogging all over your neighborhood 5.9 that was originally done ground up and clean, but is now bolted so the throngs don't have to entertain any risk - isn't honing, evolution, or progress, but rather a loss of both skill and courage.
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And if you get completely honest, you have to admit at this point 90% of these folks go outside looking to replicate their gym experience (clipping) outside rather than go inside to a gym to psuedo-replicate a real outside climbing experience - and that's the real reason behind the proliferation of bolts and the crowds they attract.

I guess you also missed my point--that too is cheating. Go back to the beginning and start over and see if you can actually do the climb/problem legitimately.

And that redpointing (or sport climbing in general [aka aerial bouldering]) came into play in the 5.12 and above zone because clean trad leads simply were no longer possible is one thing and I completely understand that. However (and what a lot of trad folks have a problem with is), the [mass] application of these tactics and "ethics" to lesser climbs - i.e. dogging all over your neighborhood 5.9 that was originally done ground up and clean, but is now bolted so the throngs don't have to entertain any risk - isn't honing, evolution, or progress, but rather a loss of both skill and courage.

And if you get completely honest, you have to admit at this point 90% of these folks go outside looking to replicate their gym experience (clipping) outside rather than go inside to a gym to psuedo-replicate a real outside climbing experience - and that's the real reason behind the proliferation of bolts and the crowds they attract.

Sorry Fracture but it is accepted fact that the harder you climb the more you are allowed to cheat :twisted:

Dingus actually made sense a few pages back....

Are you people that anal about following rules in your non climbing lives too ??!!

Anyways we had all taken a turn at getting the rope up higher and Mike was back up there, stalled out and frustrated. he informed us that he was going to do a bit of TRADITIONAL climbing, looped a few slings together, stood in them and hammered in a piton :twisted: We never did send the rt. that day but we had fun and none of us felt the least bit guilty for the way we worked the rt. No rock police showed up and arrested us :roll:

You guys can stand on your high horse all you want but I still belive that most of you are lying through your teeth :roll: (selective memory) to say that you are going to go out and climb hard(for you) multi pitch every week and never run into a situation were you had to take a hang or grab gear without lowering back to the ground is un realistic :roll: To say that if you couldn't free a move on the upper pitches of a long trad climb that you would retrete the rt is flat out lie.

Of course, almost all climbers have grabbed pro or rested, at times, on what was supposed to be a free pitch. No, that's not a big deal, it's a quite normal thing to do in many circumstances. But whether you attach importance to your style or not, it's not "free climbing" either -- and not honest to pretend, to ourselves or others, that it is. A 5.11 pitch where I rested three times is not a "5.11" that I climbed; maybe "5.9 A0" would be more truthful.

If I grab pro or rest, I might get to the top, I might be happy and proud -- that's all fine. But I can't honestly claim that I did the route free.

As for whos a liar? If you are trying to tell me that you have never grabbed a piece or taken a hang then you are most likely either a liar or showing eary signs of alzimers :roll:

Yes, I've read every entry in this thread .... :shock:

I'd like to ask every anal retentive, looking backward, trad ethics has got to be done my way or else, person who made an entry on this thread ...

Are you people that anal about following rules in your non climbing lives too ??!! Pretty scary thought !! Or are your non climbing lives so utterly powerless that you need this little bit of control to feel like someone ?? to Curt and others too numeous to mention ....

How about I climb by my rules, and you just deal with it, and get a grip on your own obessive lives ....

Dingus actually made sense a few pages back when he said " if you are a true trad purist , no one will ever know it because you will do your climbing in the unknown and not bother to tell anyone about it". In other words you will leave no trace .... Everyone claiming to be a trad purist in this thread is merely a sad pretender ....

Everybody cheats to one degree or another. Some people are ok with admitting it, some aren't.

Words and concepts are defined by the community that you climb in, for myself, and most of the people that I climb with, trad. ethics are what they are.

You guys can stand on your high horse all you want but I still belive that most of you are lying through your teeth (selective memory) to say that you are going to go out and climb hard(for you) multi pitch every week and never run into a situation were you had to take a hang or grab gear without lowering back to the ground is unrealistic. To say that if you couldn't free a move on the upper pitches of a long trad climb that you would retrete the rt is flat out lie. No self respecting trad climber back then or even now will leave gear behind and you would be a complete idiot if you left 5 rap stations because you were too stuck up to do a move of A0

i just rememberd this little tidbit from 1986. Michal Kennedy, Charly Gray and myself were working one of mikes projects in Independance pass. We were NOT pulling the rope but leaveing it at the high point. This was standard practice back then and we called it pink pointing. the pulling the rope thing maby came later with sport climbing?

An awfull lot of FFAs from back in the day would not be legit by todays standards due to this tactic. Anyways we had all taken a turn at getting the rope up higher and Mike was back up there, stalled out and frustrated. he informed us that he was going to do a bit of traditional climbing, looped a few slings together, stood in them and hammered in a piton We never did send the rt. that day but we had fun and none of us felt the least bit guilty for the way we worked the rt. No rock police showed up and arrested us.