Drake, belive me I am much happier cruiseing up a 5.8 or 5.9 or pushing myself on a 10a or b than I am getting my a$$ handed to me trying to follow my girlfriend up 10d or 11b. as for ethics there is absolutely nothing wrong with me useing my bag of tricks to follow climbs that are over my head. As long as the leader climbs in good style you are talking OUT YOUR A$$ if you are giveing me a hard time for grabbing a few pieces while seconding a pitch. As for big climbs I see you are from down south. Ever heard of cannon NH? there are pleanty of climbs up here were you don't want to waste time. especialy when the weather is fickle. I also road trip out west allmost every year. On Multi pitch climbs I do like to move fast and often as a second I may grab some gear. I also often go back and lead those same pitches clean on a later day. I may have led the pitch clean on a prior acent but if it is cold and blowing with snow or rain threatening and I am 600 ft off the deck with 500 ft to the top out I will not waste any time trying to free a tricky move. A first acent or FFA is a totaly different story and I will go to great pains to do them in good style. As for how I follow a pitch or for that matter how i lead a pitch on a serious cliff you can take your rock police an shove it were the sun don't shine :lol:

Heh. Sorry I guess I was misunderstood. And truthfully being an idiot. I agree completly with ya that to actually "climb" a route it has to be clean.

The only thing is that according to the english language to actually climb it doesn't matter how you do it. But of course saying that is like saying that kicking a ball around in your backyard is playing soccer. Once we put rules down then we change what we do into a sport. Once you give it scores you are making a sport. In the sport of climbing you must follow certain rules (ie don't pull on gear) but in the essence of climbing it doesn't matter.

Sorry, but you're still missing the point -- now you've gone too far in the other direction. It's a point worth communicating, and you're far from the only one confused, so I'll try again.

A while back, I climbed the Salathe Wall. Since then it's gone free at 5.13b. Now I can tell you with pride that "I climbed the Salathe Wall!" But I'm lyin' if I tell you "I climbed that 5.13b!" (And I'm a clown if I tell you "I climbed that 5.13b with just 150 points of aid!") See the difference?

It applies to little routes as well. If I grab pro or rest, I might get to the top, I might be happy and proud -- that's all fine. But I can't honestly claim that I did the route free. And doing the route free is what "I climbed that 5.13b" or "I climbed that 5.7" would imply.

Dingus,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blind to the context of the times we live in - while I don't much care for the proliferation of bolts and bolting (mainly because they have provided access to the masses), I do appreciate that you do haul out your rack and get on a route with it.

Do you ALWAYS go out and climb ground up, your style, seeking out new ground? Or do you more often than not these days repeat something you've already done?

Are you out there on the bleeding edge of the sport, trying to make a name for yourself, or are you on the downslope, like me, not seeking much of anything from the sport except how it can please you on this particular day?

I think Kurt Smith summed up the paradox of hard trad climbing... in the arena of public recognition, your style of ground up trad will lead young men to a pine box. In the ever competitve world of name brand climber awareness, the need to one up the standard, to do something to be noticed, means 'Burning Down the House." Sooner or later, on leads that might as well be free solos, a leader is gonna pitch off and die.

So the progression to safer sport climbing, and the corresponding focus on gymastic difficulty, makes a lot of sense on a lot of fronts, especially the competitive one. I mean, who wants to one up John Bachar or Dean Potter or Peter Croft or Mark Wilford???? ONLY A MADMAN! So how do non-madmen get noticed?

Also, in terms of establishing new routes, a great question to ask is, why create another route, or perhaps more importantly, why tell anyone about it?

If trad FA'ing in the purest style is your game, my guess is you won't tell anyone about your climbs. So if you are out there doing death leads every weekend, and then going about your business, you are made of sterner stuff than I! And I salute you!

But if you're establishing risky and scary trad climbs so that others may enjoy them... you have got to be kidding yourself to a certian extent!

Back to that weekend cragging thing... how many risky leads do we have in us? Is it our game to go out and risk it all every weekend? Or is it OK to just go out and have some exhilerating fun, pretending to cheat death when in reality we're fairly safe?

These days, my FA'ing has two components, the adventure aspect and the community service one. Community service, giving back, means creating routes I and others might want to repeat frequently.

I see nothing wrong with convenience climbing as long as we retain our respect (and back it up with a respect for tradition at all crags where it was and is practiced) for trad climbing.

But, as I said, I'm not blind to the context of the times and such is life now. I'm just happy to be able to get out and do my own thing and am glad to hear you are still able to get out do yours...

As for "respect for tradition", ours is an activity with little respect for its past, which is a shame given none of us have ever accomplished anything except on the shoulders of those that came before us.

Respect is one thing. Blind allegiance to do things the way they've been done, simply because that's the tradition, is another.

Sometimes (probably much of the time) traditions are stupid---this doesn't just go for climbing. But in climbing, for example, the tradition of lowering after a fall is simply bad redpoint tactics---a contrived way of making things harder.

And Drake? what would be the point of yarding on ice gear when you allready are yarding on your ice tools??...Some hot chick wants to go up on cathedral...If you are me you say. "That sounds pretty cool, let me grab the jugs and the camera out of the van and I'le shoot you a belay no problem" 8^)

Respect is one thing. Blind allegiance to do things the way they've been done, simply because that's the tradition, is another.

Sometimes (probably much of the time) traditions are stupid---this doesn't just go for climbing. But in climbing, for example, the tradition of lowering after a fall is simply bad redpoint tactics---a contrived way of making things harder.

I just don't understand why it has to be easy? It just seems like it's all about #'s and instant gratification. Granted I suck and I'm a weenie but if I don't have the stones or the skills to do a climb I'll give it a rest and come back when I do.

It's weird but I think people have more fun chasing #'s and tick list and amassing large amounts of gear than actually climbing.

Traditions bind things together and at times they become antiquated and die or evolve but rarely are they stupid.

And, "redpoint tactics" and other sporttard mutations to climbing are just a contrived way of making things easier.

In other words, you give up. That's nice.

Some of us prefer just to develop the skills and do the climb, instead.


Even if that were the case, what's it to you? Why should you get to dictate how others should climb?


I couldn't disagree more.

Hangdogging is what makes sense logically if you want to learn moves or techniques, so it's not the contrivance. Show me a strong trad climber who follows the old religion, and you'll see that they (e.g. you) did it by "hangdogging" on boulder problems.

8^)

It is impossible to hangdog a boulder problem, moron. You go back to the ground and start over--exactly as you should on a roped climb. Fuh.

Curt

It is impossible to hangdog a boulder problem, moron. You go back to the ground and start over--exactly as you should on a roped climb. Fuh.