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pico23
Sep 13, 2004, 2:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: A second can't generally trad climb but they can free climb in some cases. I recokon the 2nd can climb free in ALL situations if they are good enough! Free vs. aid has nothing to do with the definition of trad. When I say I free climbed something that CERTAINLY DOESN'T imply I tradded it. I could have sport climbed it. I could have bouldered it. When I go tradding, I can aid or free climb, or both. I'm still tradding. See, one of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong! Cheers (I'll try to let it go after this...) DMT So what you're saying is that all cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats? :lol: NO, Dingus is quoting Sesamie Street. And let me see, the second on a trad climb, if he is cleaning gear, how is he not trad climbing? With the exception of a poorly protected route by the leader on say a limited vertical gain traverse. in such a case the second is now free soloing and more commited than the leader was. Moral of the story is protect your second if you think you have the stones to lead. Please post here again correcting yourself--so I don't have to come back and correct you, in an unkind way. Most people don't get a second chance--don't throw it away. :wink: Curt
IMO, the rope to a second (a top rope) is aid...
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karlbaba
Sep 13, 2004, 2:33 AM
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It seems that I climbed for almost 20 years before someone told me I was trad climbing. Seems to me that they meant, basically, not sport climbing or bouldering.
and I'm a clipper, not a taker, particularly if there is a lot of rope out. That way, I am in control and the second doesn't have to futz with me.
karl
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curt
Sep 13, 2004, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: A second can't generally trad climb but they can free climb in some cases. I recokon the 2nd can climb free in ALL situations if they are good enough! Free vs. aid has nothing to do with the definition of trad. When I say I free climbed something that CERTAINLY DOESN'T imply I tradded it. I could have sport climbed it. I could have bouldered it. When I go tradding, I can aid or free climb, or both. I'm still tradding. See, one of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong! Cheers (I'll try to let it go after this...) DMT So what you're saying is that all cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats? :lol: NO, Dingus is quoting Sesamie Street. And let me see, the second on a trad climb, if he is cleaning gear, how is he not trad climbing? With the exception of a poorly protected route by the leader on say a limited vertical gain traverse. in such a case the second is now free soloing and more commited than the leader was. Moral of the story is protect your second if you think you have the stones to lead. Please post here again correcting yourself--so I don't have to come back and correct you, in an unkind way. Most people don't get a second chance--don't throw it away. :wink: Curt IMO, the rope to a second (a top rope) is aid...
Well, at least I did the courtesy of warning you and giving you the opportunity to not look like a total gumby. Unfortunately you chose to not avail yourself of that option--and therefore, here is the bad news.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. First of all, the rope running from the leader of a route to the second is not the same as a top-rope for a number of reasons. Secondly "aid" climbing means that the climber uses artificial aid to ascend the route, such as pulling on, or resting on the rope--or the gear. Your definition of "aid" as used in this thread is therefore an ignorant statement at best. And I am still being kind with that characterization.
Curt
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fracture
Sep 13, 2004, 2:51 AM
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In reply to: IMO, the rope to a second (a top rope) is aid...
And so's chalk, right? :roll:
Toprope isn't aid unless you're getting tension (i.e. getting some artifical aid from the rope). This counts even if you're doing it near the bottom of a route just to keep from decking due to rope-stretch---either lead it, risk decking, or only count it as a partially-free ascent.
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pico23
Sep 13, 2004, 3:02 AM
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In reply to: Edited to cut out this post - a glitch in the system double posted the above (no really - it wasn't me....)
a top rope is aid in one form or another. anytime i can call take (up slack) or "watch me" or tension or other up rope intended command it's aid. and if all else fails and i'm in over my head as a second i can simply pull out the prussiks and ascend the hard sections. the leader doesn't always have this option unless he just fired in a piece and then can rest of the rope. and even when a leader aids a section he/she can't free climb on trad route there is still a commitment required that is absent from the well protected second during the climb.
anyone who disagrees spends too much time on the cozy confines of the dull end of the rope.
next people will be telling me the second is just as commited to every pitch as the leader.
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curt
Sep 13, 2004, 3:09 AM
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In reply to: ....a top rope is aid in one form or another. anytime i can call take (up slack) or "watch me" or tension or other up rope intended command it's aid......
No, its not--unless you actually do take tension from the rope. By the way, you can do that same thing when you are leading trad too, so your point really has no point.
In reply to: anyone who disagrees spends too much time on the cozy confines of the dull end of the rope.
Those who disagree with you would be every knowledgeable climber here.
Curt
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pico23
Sep 13, 2004, 3:10 AM
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In reply to: You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. First of all, the rope running from the leader of a route to the second is not the same as a top-rope for a number of reasons. Secondly "aid" climbing means that the climber uses artificial aid to ascend the route, such as pulling on, or resting on the rope--or the gear. Your definition of "aid" as used in this thread is therefore an ignorant statement at best. And I am still being kind with that characterization. Curt
this (your reply) has actually been debated endlessly on this board and countless others. generally the two groups split down the middle as to whether top roping is aid or not. At the very least it's mental aid. case in point I follow 3-5 grades better than I lead. and since other people have similar lead/follow ratios so I am certainly not alone.
so how do you argue that the top rope is not a form of aid? and can you give me an example of a single second who has never EVER mailed it in and called for tension? well i am sure you will but the fact is majority of climbers have and will. bottom line is the top rope is a form of aid in most cases.
and yes, I am a gumby but i am still more than entitle to my own opinion.
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curt
Sep 13, 2004, 3:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. First of all, the rope running from the leader of a route to the second is not the same as a top-rope for a number of reasons. Secondly "aid" climbing means that the climber uses artificial aid to ascend the route, such as pulling on, or resting on the rope--or the gear. Your definition of "aid" as used in this thread is therefore an ignorant statement at best. And I am still being kind with that characterization. Curt this (your reply) has actually been debated endlessly on this board and countless others. generally the two groups split down the middle as to whether top roping is aid or not. At the very least it's mental aid. case in point I follow 3-5 grades better than I lead. and since other people have similar lead/follow ratios so I am certainly not alone. so how do you argue that the top rope is not a form of aid? and can you give me an example of a single second who has never EVER mailed it in and called for tension? well i am sure you will but the fact is majority of climbers have and will. bottom line is the top rope is a form of aid in most cases. and yes, I am a gumby but i am still more than entitle to my own opinion.
Yes, but here we are not debating politics or some other topic where opinions enter into the dialog. We are discussing the factual definition of "aid" as it applies to climbing and you obviously don't understand what it is.
I have read many of the other threads you seemingly allude to above--and I can't recall even one person saying that toproping or seconding a route constitutes aid climbing. I recall others saying that seconding equals toproping, but never that either of these two things are aid climbing. To say that is simply a stupid statement.
Curt
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happiegrrrl
Sep 13, 2004, 3:33 AM
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Pico -
But....when a second (or even a person on a climb set up to be toproped and not led in the first place) has no intention of calling "take" or "tension" to keep themselves from losing a few feet of altitude, as I believe is the traditional style......
Really - I am just a n00b, but I don't even ask for tension on toprope at the gym. It seems to me - either make the climb or not. Asking for tension is really like knowing you're gonna fall, and not wanting to relinquish (a false sense of) control.
While I do understand that the original topic was "resting on gear," - what I've always understood the appropriate way to rest on a climb is within the natural features the line presents, and not weight the rope, on gear or on the belay, at all. That the climbs are like a musical arrangement, and may/may not contain "rest notes" in the same way some songs do.....
And, your statement about it being "mental aid"....I DO see what you are thinking, but really, then by extension, using a rope and gear at all would be considered aid, wouldn't it? (since *most* people who free solo do so at a few grades lower than their lead level?????).....
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caughtinside
Sep 13, 2004, 3:34 AM
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Top roping is now aid? What a laugh!
And I don't follow harder than I lead. Might be because I don't climb trad with too many folks who are significantly better than me, but I sure as hell don't follow 5 grades harder.
All of my hardest climbs have been on lead, outside. I climb like crap in the gym, because it means nothing. I'm focused on the sharp end.
But back to resting on gear. Meself, never done it. I've pulled on gear, but only when my belayer saw it. :wink: Call it what you will, but don't imply that I did anything remotely 'french' or I will punch you in the nose. I have taken extended siestas on fatty hand jams though.
Top roping:aid. Woot! That's a good one, bro. :lol:
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euroford
Sep 13, 2004, 3:39 AM
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yeah... maybe its aid if you clip your jumars to it and start jugging..... :roll:
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camhead
Sep 13, 2004, 4:48 AM
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HI EVERBIDDY!
Gosh, like, i've learned so much from this thread that I can hardly contain meeself. here is MY OPINION, which is frightfully important:
ahem.
The last time I HANGDOGGED (or maybe "hung dog"?), my piece pulled out and I took a fall. It was pretty long (ask rrradam or clymber about it), but I can't brag about it, seeing as how it was the result of a wussy-ass hangdog. Screw that. I'm badder ass than that, you know? So now I don't hang dog.
This gets me to the topic at hand. I only 'rest' on gear after taking monster-badass-ultra-serious whips, so, like, I guess that entails resting on the rope, and not clipping in. On the other hand, if someone needs to rest on gear, he may very well be a weakmo fatass, and should thus clip in, thus sparing his belayer the job of holding his big old aidclimber's gut.
Either way, if anyone rests on the rope or by clipping in without having taken a monsterbadasswhipper4lyfe, he is simply not that cool, and his opinion null, void. Therefore, my opinion is the only one that matters in this thread, and it would really be in all of our best interests if this thread gets locked right after my definitive post.
p.s.
if you do want to know about clipping into pieces, french freeing, the 'homo method,' or any other bits of rc.c---suckery, you should direct your questions to THIS GUY...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=11637
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hangerlessbolt
Sep 13, 2004, 4:57 AM
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Interesting aid story...since we're (sort of) on the topic:
Climbed Monkey Face at Smith via the West Variation:
P1 5.8
P2 5.9 (sh*t rock)
P3 5.8 traverse
P4 A1 bolt ladder
P5 5.7
P6 solo (bring rope for rap back to cave)
Anywho, my bud's leading the aid pitch...gets to about bolt 7 when *PING*...bolt pops out!!!
Craziest sh*t I've ever seen...luckily enough he had clipped the bolt above prior to the popage (at 6'7" he has those kinds of options)...which is good, because as a favor to me he had only been clipping every 4th bolt so that I'd have less work to do on the jug haul. Which, if you do the math, means he would have fallen somewhere in my vacinity or below...not good
...whoever stated that the second is "aiding" simply because the rope is above him...is lacking in some elementary knowledge of climbing terms
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hangerlessbolt
Sep 13, 2004, 5:03 AM
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Ah, yes...Right V Crack 10a(c)
Nice belayer...should have been sitting in his truck in the parking area for a better view. LoL
Yeah Paul...you dah mahn...even if it's in your own book. So the whipper...still got that bent nut hanging from your rearview mirror?
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ldsclimber
Sep 13, 2004, 5:07 AM
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Last week I placed a crappy blue TCU and rested on it as i was getting pumped. I didn't like it so I placed another piece and took out the old one and sat back. Just when I thought I was good, it popoed and sent me falling backwards. The rope was taught so the fall hurt. So I'd say it's best to clip the piece or just go for it and if you fall well at least you went for it and your fall will be soft.
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jt512
Sep 13, 2004, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: Last week I placed a crappy blue TCU and rested on it as i was getting pumped. I didn't like it so I placed another piece and took out the old one and sat back. Just when I thought I was good, it popoed and sent me falling backwards. The rope was taught so the fall hurt. So I'd say it's best to clip the piece or just go for it and if you fall well at least you went for it and your fall will be soft.
It's best to learn to place gear properly. Sounds like you need more ground school.
-Jay
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dingus
Sep 13, 2004, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: And let me see, the second on a trad climb, if he is cleaning gear, how is he not trad climbing?
He would be trad climbing. But if this guy who is seconding? If he seconds all the time, ie he does no leading, HE is not a trad climber, ie a ground up climber. He always has a top rope, ie always a top down climber.
I am just telling all you wanna-be-trad-noobs out there, trad is DEFINED BY LEADING FROM THE GROUND UP. If you ain't doing no leading, you ain't doing no tradding.
Cheers
DMT
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curt
Sep 13, 2004, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: I am just telling all you wanna-be-trad-noobs out there, trad is DEFINED BY LEADING FROM THE GROUND UP. If you ain't doing no leading, you ain't doing no tradding. Cheers DMT
This was a bad definition when you posted it before--and it is a bad definition now. MANY sport routes have been put up from the ground up--on lead. And these are certainly NOT trad climbs.
Curt
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davidji
Sep 13, 2004, 6:47 PM
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In reply to: While I do understand that the original topic was "resting on gear," - what I've always understood the appropriate way to rest on a climb is within the natural features the line presents, and not weight the rope, on gear or on the belay, at all.
If you're trying to do the climb free, that is true. Somewhat. If the belay is hanging, you have to weight it. Even if you're on a ledge, I think it's OK to weight the belay, if it makes you more comfortable (apparently there are people who will disagree). Anyway, if you *must* rest, but want to call the ascent "free," you could set up a belay. Not sure when the "ethics police" would consider that cheating. Turning 2 pitches into 3 should be OK. How about turning 1 pitch into 5?
Anyway, there may come a time when you're on the sharp end of the rope, and your strength is ebbing, and it seems like the safest thing you can do is quickly slot a piece and hang from it.
In fact it can even happen when you're following. On Saturday, my second felt the need to rest or pull on fixed gear for safety/security (horizontal chimneying, with unpleasant fall potential). It was runout for me, but he saw a fixed pin that I hadn't seen (either I went higher, or was facing the other way), he clipped a cam to it as a handhold, and couldn't remove it. I found out, because he sent me back in to clean it. Going back to remove the cam or even leaving the cam is better than having to rescue an injured partner.
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dingus
Sep 13, 2004, 7:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am just telling all you wanna-be-trad-noobs out there, trad is DEFINED BY LEADING FROM THE GROUND UP. If you ain't doing no leading, you ain't doing no tradding. Cheers DMT This was a bad definition when you posted it before--and it is a bad definition now. MANY sport routes have been put up from the ground up--on lead. And these are certainly NOT trad climbs. Curt
That doesn't imply that trad climbs are not ground up however, because some sport climbs were established the hard way. We aren't defining sport climbing here Curt.
And the *essence* of trad is the ground up ethic. Now you can slice and dice the exceptions till Hell freezes over, the essense of trad remains GROUND UP baby.
DMT
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joshklingbeil
Sep 13, 2004, 7:02 PM
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I think a portaledge would work good for resting on gear.
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flamer
Sep 13, 2004, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Most of the time, it is better to clip in. It tends to make sure that you inspect the piece before you weight it. Not weighting the rope helps ensure that the lower pieces are less likely to walk. It eliminates the problem of rope stretch. If you used runners appropriately the walking concern is a non-issue...no? josh Nope, the rope is going to pull on the gear regardless of how you set the runners. It might not rip them out but it very well might shift them as tension enters the system. Lower off a climb sometime and see how your gear is being pulled.
While lowering off a climb yesterday I payed special attention to the gear...
I placed roughly 12 peice's in 120' exactly 4 of them where being loaded by the rope when i lowered off.....
And toproping/seconding is not aid, never has been. Only time it's aid is if you pull on gear(or the rope) to ascend.
josh
josh
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curt
Sep 13, 2004, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I am just telling all you wanna-be-trad-noobs out there, trad is DEFINED BY LEADING FROM THE GROUND UP. If you ain't doing no leading, you ain't doing no tradding. Cheers DMT This was a bad definition when you posted it before--and it is a bad definition now. MANY sport routes have been put up from the ground up--on lead. And these are certainly NOT trad climbs. Curt That doesn't imply that trad climbs are not ground up however, because some sport climbs were established the hard way. We aren't defining sport climbing here Curt. DMT
I am aware of that. However, a good definition should (I think) differentiate trad from other types of climbing, which "ground up" does not.
Curt
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dingus
Sep 13, 2004, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: I am aware of that. However, a good definition should (I think) differentiate trad from other types of climbing, which "ground up" does not. Curt
I wasn't so much striving for an all-encompassing Webster's take on trad Curt, or even to split hairs in an argument of semantics!
But if Webster's were to define the citrus fruit 'orange' do they have to make it descriptive enough to preclude ALL OTHER citrus fruits? I hope the answer is no, in that we define what a word IS, rather than what it IS NOT.
I DO believe 'ground up' is the bedrock fundamental essence of trad climbing. I've never heard a convincing case to the contrary.
And as I said before, any definition of traditional climbing that excludes John Salathe's Lost Arrow Chimney is ludicrous. That was the first big wall in Yosemite and I believe all of N America and it was done ground up, even though it had already been demonstrated it was much easier to toss a rope from the rim and climb it top down.
If a definition of trad doesn't include John Salathe, then tradition itself becomes meaningless.
DMT
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curt
Sep 13, 2004, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am aware of that. However, a good definition should (I think) differentiate trad from other types of climbing, which "ground up" does not. Curt But if Webster's were to define the citrus fruit 'orange' do they have to make it descriptive enough to preclude ALL OTHER citrus fruits? I hope the answer is no, in that we define what a word IS, rather than what it IS NOT.
I guess we are now merely talking apples and oranges here Dingus.
Curt
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