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climbingjoshuatree
Jul 1, 2002, 12:59 AM
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Should a new bolt be put on a traditional climb. I recently saw a new bolt on a climb I had to struggle through and go up and down many times before I finished it. The climb was a 5.10c. The bolt was placed at a crux and it would keep you from swinging away when you fall. What do you all think?
[ This Message was edited by: climbingjoshuatree on 2002-06-30 18:00 ]
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bshaftoe
Jul 1, 2002, 1:48 AM
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I wouldn't expect that bolt to stick around very long, especially in Josh.
Personally I feel that retro-bolting the crux on a existing trad line is an cowardly act. (Not that I haven't wished for a big fat bolt at a crux section before.)
Since many first ascents (especially trad lines) involved ground up, bold exploration of virgin rock with little assurance of success, the route should not be brought down to the level of the sackless cowards who placed the bolt.
Climbingjoshuatree are you sure you don't live under a bridge? If so, I guess you hooked me eh?
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stevematthys
Jul 1, 2002, 5:36 AM
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yea, someone will probably chop it
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murf
Jul 1, 2002, 4:24 PM
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Don't hold back, tell us the route.
Find out who the FA was and see if you can contact him/her. If it's a Josh route, try Nomad. Even if you can't find the FA, Nomad may have beta on who placed the offending bolt. If the FA approved the bolt, it's probably better left as is. If not chop it, or post the route and let someone else chop it.
Murf
/edited to say/
All typical cautions about chopping apply.. don't start anything you can't handle, finish what you start, patch what you've done.
[ This Message was edited by: murf on 2002-07-01 09:26 ]
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topher
Jul 7, 2002, 5:40 PM
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I realize that bolting trad lines isnt a nice thing to do , but why would you chop it, it still leaves the same amount of damage to the rock, My opinoin is that you should leave it, but still find the person who did this and tell them whats what. just my 2cents
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blindslap
Jul 8, 2002, 5:35 AM
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i agree with topher, what's done is done, and if some gumby go's and climbs it with a string of crappy pro behind him that bolt might save his life.
i'm not saying go ahead to bolt trad lines to make it safer, and i do believe chopping is appropriate in some instances, and i don't know what the route is, what the crux is like, or the visibility of the bolt, but this might be one of the rare instances were the bolt might be okay left.
[ This Message was edited by: blindslap on 2002-07-07 22:36 ]
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wildtrail
Jul 8, 2002, 6:19 AM
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I don't agree. I'm a traditional climber and I am a little biased. I think a route, if origianally trad, should remain trad. I do see the benefits of the bolts placements, but I think it is wrong. We all assume and accept what we do and the risks we take. I, personally, think placing a bolt on this climb removes part of the climb. We've all fallen and went for a swing, was the bolt necessary? If not, I hope someone pulls the damn silly thing. Other than that, that is my two cents.
Climb safe and have fun,
Steve
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paintinhaler
Jul 8, 2002, 7:15 AM
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I have 27 cents...
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offwidth
Jul 8, 2002, 10:15 PM
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I feel that one should respect the local ethics.
The old-school ethics of Joshua Tree deem that adding a bolt to a route is bad.
Personally, I feel that in JT there is never a need to add a bolt to a route. There are thousands of climbs at Josh. Many of these climbs are formidable, with bowel-loosening run outs and/or marginal pro. But many climbs have plenty of good pro available. If one were to leave the scary climbs for the people who enjoy that kind of thing, there will still be a lifetime of climbs left over to enjoy.
If one disagrees with old-school ethics, then they should stay and enjoy the climbs of New Jack City or Mt. Williamson, where local ethics see bolts as a good thing.
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huggybone
Jul 8, 2002, 11:46 PM
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A bolt should not be placed on a route that was origionally done trad. I don't think local ethics are the most important factor, because your actions will DEFINE the local ethic. There are people out there who believe that everything should be bolted, just to make it safer. They are out there, waiting for the OK to grid bolt your favorite crag. All in the name of 'safe.'
If you want a sport whose dominating characteristic is safe, try table tennis.
Do people climb so that they can be safe?
No! they climb in order to do something adventurous. To take some sort of risk. There are more than enough safe routes out there, there is no need to murder the few remaining R/X routes.
Also, the damage done by bolt placement/removal is not the damage to the rock. The damage is to acomplishment of doing the route. If you take the boldness out of the route (placing a bolt) you damage/diminish the acomplishment of doing the route.
Saying 'well, the bolt is already there, we should just leave it' is like not punishing a vadal because the 'damage is already done.'
P.S. No, I do not hate bolts.
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woodse
Jul 8, 2002, 11:57 PM
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As both a sport climber and a trad climber I say the bolt should not be there. Like others said before if you do decide to chop it make sure you get the entire job done, don't leave a hanger-less bolt in the rock and patch it if you can. There is absolutely no reason for someone to put a bolt in on an established trad line.
woodsE
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offwidth
Jul 9, 2002, 3:01 AM
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Huggybone,
While we both feel basically the same way, I do beleive that the established local ethics are important.
If the local ethics at Joshua Tree were being respected, that bolt never would have been placed. Now local ethics demand that the bolt be chopped.
My personal ethics reflect these old-school ethics found in Joshua Tree. I don't want to see JT turned into another Owens River Gorge, with grid-bolted faces and bolted crack climbs, just as the good folks up in Bishop don't want me to start chopping lines that I feel are not right.
If everyone respected the established local ethics of the crags, we could stop wasting our time talking about bolting and stop the bolt-war nonsense.
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billcoe_
Jul 9, 2002, 3:43 AM
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Although I would generally agree with most or all of the comments here, suppose the first ascent party went up and put that bolt there?
I did this once on a relatively easy climb 2 months (and a couple of additional ascents too) after I first ascended it just to keep the hordes of beginners from slamming into the deck.
It was a consensus decision in that instance.
There have been no fatalities and I sleep easy at night.
Perhaps you can gather more info B4 you chop???
Regards:
Bill
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ergophobe
Jul 9, 2002, 7:38 PM
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Topher said
"I realize that bolting trad lines isnt a nice thing to do , but why would you chop it, it still leaves the same amount of damage to the rock"
It's a deterence. Basically, let's say: well he already killed one person, but putting him in jail is not going to bring that person back, so let's just let him go.
I'm not trying to equate the severity of the two "crimes", just pointing out the logic. If you believe that retro-bolting is a crime, then the way to deter it is to stand up to it and not permit it.
I'm not sure that it's always a crime. I think that if the first ascent party believes that a bolt should be added, but they were just too tired/hurried/lazy to do it, I think it's okay on most relatively new routes. I feel, however, that even the first ascent party loses their right to alter an established classic.
There are all kinds of routes that I will never do because they have death falls off hard moves. So be it! There are so many routes that don't, I'll stick to those.
Tom
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jds100
Jul 9, 2002, 7:52 PM
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This subject has been discussed at great length here at RC.com, in numerous forum threads. When Trevor gets the "Forum Search" function up and running you might try typing in a few keywords, and then glancing through the forum threads that are found in the search.
Suffice to say, adding a bolt to a trad line is very broadly received as a BAD THING. Local consensus on ethics generally rules the day for a given area. Joshua Tree is known around the world, and it would be highly unlikely that the bolter did not know (or should have known) that ya don't add bolts to a trad line. There are a lot of areas where such an act could put ones life and limb at risk, and Joshua Tree is one of 'em.
Removing (not chopping) a bolt does not have to leave a scar. The bolt can be removed effectively and the hole camoflaged just fine. The American Safe Climbing Association- http://www.safeclimbing.org -probably has instructions on their website.
As for adding bolts, check with the first ascentionist. If you can't obtain permission from him or her, AND other locals who may think the route is just fine without the bolt, don't add it. Problems really develop when someone takes it upon himself to act unilaterally to add bolts or chop bolts. It doesn't help any situation when someone acts on their own to bring a route down to their level (bolting trad lines, modifying the rock, etc.), or by chopping bolts and acting like a rogue vigilante.
Even in the case of this bolt, which certainly should be removed, it would be best to check with one of the local climbing shop personnel and/or local climbers, and be sure of the consensus to remove it, and then make sure whoever removes it, does it right.
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-07-09 13:00 ]
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mountainmonkey
Jul 11, 2002, 4:51 PM
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1. Only the FA should place a bolt on his/her route and establish the ethics of the route.
2. Only they should say whether it should be retro bolted.
3. Any one else who adds bolts is damaging the route.
4. The bolt should be chopped to discourage further and unnecessary drilling.
Yes, chopping does leave the damage to the rock and takes away safe pro. However it does discourage future self-righteous retrobolter from damaging the rock in the first place. If a route is too dangerous - go climb something else that is safe.
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joemor
Jul 14, 2002, 7:37 AM
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was it a newly placed bolt or a replaced bolt..... because it makes a big difference.
joe
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