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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 3:01 PM
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So on my 3rd trip to the New this past weekend I had to venture onto many of the sport routes with my buddies (my previous visits I had only climbed trad and a little bit of bouldering).
Being of the staunch NC ethic of not bolting where gear can be placed I was very annoyed many times to find places on almost EVERY route that I did this weekend that could have had a gear placement at the BOLT.
So since I've opened that can of worms you all can say go on and on about sport areas vs trad areas...IDRGARA
BUT...I was wondering if anyone knows of some of the sport routes at the New being done on just gear...of particular interest to me is Flight of the Gumby and Rico Suave Arete.
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dingus
Aug 15, 2005, 3:08 PM
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In reply to: Being of the staunch NC ethic of not bolting where gear can be placed I was very annoyed many times to find places on almost EVERY route that I did this weekend that could have had a gear placement at the BOLT.
The whole world doesn't have to be like North Carolina, does it?
DMT
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overlord
Aug 15, 2005, 3:29 PM
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^^^^ ditto that.
different places have different ethics. get used to it, itll make your live much less stressfull :wink:
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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 3:35 PM
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[quote="dingus"]In reply to: The whole world doesn't have to be like North Carolina, does it? DMT
Well...somewhere has got to keep some bold, adventure ethic alive. :twisted:
But like I said I don't really care, I'm not out to diss sport routes in general. In the future I can always carry a selection of gear and clip bolts at my discretion.
Hince...why I would like to hear from some folks with any general knowledge of routes that maybe were put up clean...and then got the treatment. Or routes that are bolted but have subsequently been climbed clean.
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dwise
Aug 15, 2005, 4:30 PM
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This should kick this discussion up a notch...
Not flaming you Josh, merely an observation:
I generally agree with you, but rather than arrogantly proclaiming your hard trad ethic online, just go climb it with gear. Then you can contentedly down a brew at Rogers while massaging your brass stones and remodeling for more ego square footage.
Whatever floats your boat, more power to you I say.
I love NC climbing, but have to say that some of the hardcore trad ethic there is a bit counter-productive and dangerous. Take Moore's Wall. The 4th class descent from Hopscotch (5.3) is more dangerous than the climb. Several well meaning individuals have placed rappel anchors only to have them chopped because of the "Trad ethic." So, noob climber sees a 5.3 route--score! Only to have an epic near death experience on the down climb (stay away from the light!). Or how about the rap anchor from the Amphitheater? An unsightly mess of slings and pitons. What's so wrong with replacing them with less obtrusive bolts and chains?
While I understand the power of nostalgia and agree that we should never lower the standard of various bold ascents, I also know that despite what anyone wants, there are more climbers out there. The vast majority of us are secure in our manhood and climb for recreation/fun. Yes, those of us w/o the gumption to climb 5.death routes should stay off of them until we're good enough to do so, but do the folks who climb the 5.6 next door still need to risk death to get down?
Disclaimer: I left NC in 2000, so the anchor situation at Moore's may be different now; 2.9 APR for a limited time; side effects are generally mild and may include vomiting, dry skin, anal leakage, and in some rare cases, even death.
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caughtinside
Aug 15, 2005, 4:56 PM
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WTF do you need gear beta for? If you're so hard, take your rack up there and do it. That's what I do. I don't whinge online about ethics and then ask for gear beta in the same breath that I speak of 'boldness.'
Of course, my rack is a couple dozen draws. :P
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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: This should kick this discussion up a notch... Not flaming you Josh, merely an observation: I generally agree with you, but rather than arrogantly proclaiming your hard trad ethic online, just go climb it with gear. Then you can contentedly down a brew at Rogers while massaging your brass stones and remodeling for more ego square footage.
No flamage taken...I should however clarify that while I said "I am of the 'staunch NC trad ethic'"...I by no means was trying to proclaim hardman status. While my demeanor my sound a bit arrogant about doing these routes sans bolts...let's not forget the grades of the two particular routes in question 5.10 and 5.9...hardly something that I will be sitting around 'massaging my brass stones' over.
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btraxler
Aug 15, 2005, 5:03 PM
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I think that you bring up an issue that has been brewing with more intensity each year. For example the bolting issues in Eldorado Canyon. Staunch ethics like those you speak of in N.C. are not uncommon in the many crags around the U.S. I think that it is important to remember that climbers are passionate about the experiences they have in the mountains. Thus bolting something that has been done many times without changes the experience. It is the individuals choice to embark on the unprotected R rated line. So Whatever your argument I feel that bolting should be avoided, but in the name of safety, for god sake allow for at least one safe rappel anchor.
I have climbed many of the routes at the New partly free or free. I have placed gear in "Flight of the Gumby" with the idea of doing it in better style but if I remember correctly it only took some nuts down low. For the most part, the bolting at the New is pretty good, most routes that take gear are left that way. Many a bold line has gone up at the New River, and don't forget that a lot of the routes got fitted with gear from the ground up. Meaning On Lead... a much bolder approach to fitting a route. I am sure you could find much more historical climbing info in the introductions to the guide books, or talking with locals.
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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 5:04 PM
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In reply to: WTF do you need gear beta for? If you're so hard, take your rack up there and do it. That's what I do. I don't whinge online about ethics and then ask for gear beta in the same breath that I speak of 'boldness. :-)
Fair enough...I'm not really looking for an all out description of which gear to carry for any particular routes (both routes of the two said routes I have already done sport style and pretty much know what I'm going to do next time).
My real curiousity is in whether many folks do this often? And maybe what other routes, particularly at the New, this has been done. I hope/know that I can't be the only person that at least thinks of trying to do routes in a 'clean' style of ascent.
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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: I have climbed many of the routes at the New partly free or free. I have placed gear in "Flight of the Gumby" with the idea of doing it in better style but if I remember correctly it only took some nuts down low. For the most part, the bolting at the New is pretty good, most routes that take gear are left that way. Many a bold line has gone up at the New River, and don't forget that a lot of the routes got fitted with gear from the ground up. Meaning On Lead... a much bolder approach to fitting a route. I am sure you could find much more historical climbing info in the introductions to the guide books, or talking with locals.
Word...this is the type of info I'm looking for folks.
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noell
Aug 15, 2005, 5:55 PM
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Doug Cosby put Flight of the Gumby up, it's considered a NRG classic, a stellar 5.9 that is like 10 bolts or so long. Fantastic route, and LOTS of beginnings use it as a first lead.
Doug lives in NC. Owns Innerpeaks in Charlotte. Ask him what he thinks about it.
My opinion - the NRG has a ton of awesome trad lines and sport lines, and tends to have 'sportier' sport routes than most areas (longer run outs, etc.). It's not for the faint of heart. If you want to leave the bolts unclipped, go for it. I believe that the NRG was bolted with utmost respect for trad climbing (especially when you are talking about Endless, Beauty, Bridge, Junkyard, Kaymoor, etc.) when possible and you can see it in the guidebooks - LOTS of gear routes!!!
I climb at the NRG year round (cept for summer, you guys are crazy). I don' t know of anyone going up the classic sport routes on gear when there are so many awesome-teethchatterin-beautiful-hairraisin trad lines around. Why would they go get in line one of the busiest sport routes at the gorge when they can run it out on a 5.8-5.10 crack on endless?
BTW- I live in NC (for now) and I have total respect for how the New was developed and the lines that are there.
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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: Doug Cosby put Flight of the Gumby up, it's considered a NRG classic, a stellar 5.9 that is like 10 bolts or so long. Fantastic route, and LOTS of beginnings use it as a first lead. Doug lives in NC. Owns Innerpeaks in Charlotte. Ask him what he thinks about it. My opinion - the NRG has a ton of awesome trad lines and sport lines, and tends to have 'sportier' sport routes than most areas (longer run outs, etc.). It's not for the faint of heart. If you want to leave the bolts unclipped, go for it. I believe that the NRG was bolted with utmost respect for trad climbing (especially when you are talking about Endless, Beauty, Bridge, Junkyard, Kaymoor, etc.) when possible and you can see it in the guidebooks - LOTS of gear routes!!! I climb at the NRG year round (cept for summer, you guys are crazy). I don' t know of anyone going up the classic sport routes on gear when there are so many awesome-teethchatterin-beautiful-hairraisin trad lines around. Why would they go get in line one of the busiest sport routes at the gorge when they can run it out on a 5.8-5.10 crack on endless? BTW- I live in NC (for now) and I have total respect for how the New was developed and the lines that are there.
Spare me...I've read the guidebooks, I know who the hard-men are that put up the routes. And why would this 'classic' route...which when viewed from my eyes could have gone clean, been bolted by these hardmen when they were putting up so many other 'awesome-teethchatterin-beautiful-hairraisin trad lines"...Why didn't they put it up in the first place clean?
Otherwise...as I have said before could some of these routes possibly have been retro-bolted or simply bolted because most of the other routes around Kaymoor are sport routes? Because ethics aside...we has humans often favor convenience.
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thorne
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Aug 15, 2005, 6:52 PM
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Be careful about declaring your "staunch NC trad ethic". NC has a number of areas with sport routes - Moores, Sauratown, Pilot, Stone (not really :wink: ), Crowder, Rumbling, Hawksbill, Table Rock and Cedar, to name a few. There's more than a lifetime's worth of stellar trad lines in this part of the country. You've got plenty of trad lines to send before getting worked up about style ethics. The bolt wars were so 90s.
Granted, there are numerous sport routes that could easily be protected with gear. However, these routes are typically in areas that were undeveloped until the bolters showed up.
Many of the routes (under 5.11) at Summersville can be led fairly safely on gear. If you're interested in seeing for yourself, then have at it.
One retro-bolted route at Endless Wall is Strike a Scowl. I wouldn't recommend trying it on gear. The first ascentionist used skyhooks.
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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 7:05 PM
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In reply to: Granted, there are numerous sport routes that could easily be protected with gear. However, these routes are typically in areas that were undeveloped until the bolters showed up. Many of the routes (under 5.11) at Summersville can be led fairly safely on gear. If you're interested in seeing for yourself, then have at it. One retro-bolted route at Endless Wall is Strike a Scowl. I wouldn't recommend trying it on gear. The first ascentionist used skyhooks.
Thanks for the helpful info.
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noell
Aug 15, 2005, 7:13 PM
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To the point- Kaymoor: from what I know of the history of it's development, it was developed as a sport area by those hardmen we all read about. Those lines done on gear first were left gear routes. Otherwise, Kaymoor as a whole was developed as a sport crag.
So did these hardmen reto bolt gear lines? From what I have heard from locals/oldtimers/those that live and breathe by the NRG, whatever, they did not retro bolt trad lines; routes were all developed as sport lines and the area was considered a sport crag.
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sandstonejunkie
Aug 15, 2005, 7:30 PM
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My suggestion to you, joshy8200, is to bring your rack, climb them clean, post your experiences. As far as arguing over ethics, I agree with Thorne, it's so 90s and I don't care to waste my time.
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caughtinside
Aug 15, 2005, 7:35 PM
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Josh,
It sounds like you climbed Flight of the Gumby, and noticed gear placements. So you can either climb it on gear, or not.
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thorne
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Aug 15, 2005, 7:44 PM
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One big downside of climbing bolted lines using gear is the risk is greatly reduced.
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feanor007
Aug 15, 2005, 7:51 PM
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acronyms this long should be banned
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caughtinside
Aug 15, 2005, 7:52 PM
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downside? :lol:
Hah, whatever. Of course, there are other reasons as well. Friable rock, etc.
I just think it's a strange post by joshy8200. It sounds like the new has plenty of trad climbs, so I'm not sure why he just doesn't clip the bolts where they are, and climb the cracks where he pleases. And if he thinks it can be done on gear, why doesn't he do it without asking? Where is the 'boldness?'
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unabonger
Aug 15, 2005, 7:54 PM
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In reply to: BUT...I was wondering if anyone knows of some of the sport routes at the New being done on just gear...of particular interest to me is Flight of the Gumby and Rico Suave Arete.
Various sport routes at the New have been climbed on natural gear only, including Apollo Reed, 13a. The Gumby has undoubtedly been done without using the bolts--probably it's been soloed more than a few times.
At any rate, contrary to Thorne's assertion, on most sport routes at the New you'd probably be safer placing your own gear--the bolts on Gumby, for example, are horrifying. Do not fall on them. I'm undertaking efforts to remedy some of this.
Now, you North Carolinians are proud of your traditional ethics--but there's more to climbing than big balls.
UnaBonger
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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: downside? :lol: Hah, whatever. Of course, there are other reasons as well. Friable rock, etc. I just think it's a strange post by joshy8200. It sounds like the new has plenty of trad climbs, so I'm not sure why he just doesn't clip the bolts where they are, and climb the cracks where he pleases. And if he thinks it can be done on gear, why doesn't he do it without asking? Where is the 'boldness?'
I am feeling a bit like I have put my foot in my mouth here...but to my defense I wasn't asking 'if' or 'could' I climb the routes on gear. I've already settled those questions in my mind.
My main curiousity has been helpfully answered quite well by Noell in her last post. It makes perfect sense that these guys just developed the climbs as sport climbs.
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joshy8200
Aug 15, 2005, 8:25 PM
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[quote="unabonger]
Various sport routes at the New have been climbed on natural gear only, including Apollo Reed, 13a. The Gumby has undoubtedly been done without using the bolts--probably it's been soloed more than a few times.
At any rate, contrary to Thorne's assertion, on most sport routes at the New you'd probably be safer placing your own gear--the bolts on Gumby, for example, are horrifying. Do not fall on them. I'm undertaking efforts to remedy some of this.
UnaBonger
Good point...I'm not trying to kid myself that these routes haven't been done barefoot and naked...
...I guess I should just come clean with my real motives...I'm just a wannabe hardman trying to grow a bigger pair with every climb. These particular climbs would offer the easy chance to push my trad limits over some terrain with gear that may not be completely straightforward...but if I needed to cop out...I'd have bolts there to do so.
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thorne
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Aug 15, 2005, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: I guess I should just come clean with my real motives...I'm just a wannabe hardman trying to grow a bigger pair with every climb. These particular climbs would offer the easy chance to push my trad limits over some terrain with gear that may not be completely straightforward...but if I needed to cop out...I'd have bolts there to do so.
BOOOOO!!!! :evil:
Go do all the 5.8s at Moores Wall, Table Rock, Ship Rock and three star routes at the NRG.
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sandstonejunkie
Aug 15, 2005, 9:22 PM
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I hate to follow in thorne's footsteps again but I think he summed it up nicely.
For someone who wants to be a bold NC climber you certainly have strange ideas on how to get there. Seems like you should just embrace sport climbing and be done with it.
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