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jsj42
Jan 3, 2006, 11:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: J_ung--in the up close picture--(and I may have missed this answer) did that cam look like one of the cams that was drilled incorrectly? Actually, no, it doesn't. Right now I'm trying to decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Hee hee. That's funny! We should create a poll:
Which would you rather fall on: An old-style Leeper hanger or an orange Alien?
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jsj42
Jan 3, 2006, 11:53 PM
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In reply to: I was proactive in calling instead of waiting around to see what opinions were posted next on this thread. I decided, instead, to find out for myself.
It's only going to be good for us to have people calling CCH and inquiring/complaining. The more the voices and the louder they are, perhaps the more they'll listen.
But tradgal, you're giving CCH "the benefit of the doubt?" Give me a break! The failures of these cams are documented. You get the benefit of the doubt before you screw up. Once you screw up the burden of proof is on your shoulders -- not the people who are affected.
The reason we're all so vocal about it is because, conceptually, Aliens are amazing pieces of equipment. But in reality, if you can't trust them, let alone if you have good reasons NOT to trust them, then what good are they?
What you don't seem to understand is that this isn't some big business like Black Diamond... I saw the shop once and my impression was that it was a little removed from a garage workshop. Half the time I've called their phone is answered by a busy-sounding woman and I've heard, what sounded like, a crying toddler in the background. I don't think they have a staff to respond to people's emails and inquiries. Apparently they don't have a QA staff either. This probably worked fine when the demand for the product was managable, but with REI buying out their entire stock every year, it appears they simply aren't able to keep their products QA'd and SAFE.
The way I see it they've cut corners and now, hopefully, it will bite them in the ass before it bites any more climbers in the ass. I want to see the Alien brand live on and actually be in stock at my local shop... but if I can't place one of them when I'm otherwise way run out and have faith that the thing won't explode if I fall on it, what's the point?
Awhile ago I had two sets of small cams - BD's and Aliens. When I added a third set, I added more BD's... not because I like them better, but because I just can't trust Aliens. I hope CCH is listening.
And I also hope that Malcolm is smiling at all the veiled compliments in this thread. Nothing would please me more to see the Alien concept developed by someone who actually gives a damn. I'm positive that Malcolm does - and he's certainly got as many business concerns as CCH. He's personally responded to many of my emails, regularly reads posts on this site, and cares about his climbers. Again... I hope CCH is listening.
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tradgal
Jan 3, 2006, 11:54 PM
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About two years ago, I ordered a full set of Aliens from Mgear.com. They , of course, were out of stock. I proactively called CCH to find out when they were to ship to mgear.com again. At the time, they weren't exactly sure, but they offered to drop ship my order to me. Which means, instead of shipping the order to mgear to ship to me, CCH shipped directly to me and I in return paid mgear.com. I had my Aliens a week later.
That is not poor customer service. When I talked to Dave on the phone today, I did not receive poor customer service.
Do I think their current crisis management team or public relations staff is crap--yes. If I owned that business would I have already addressed this situation to the best of my ability--Yes. But, I don't own that business. None of us do. And, until we hear from CCH regarding this, none of us can fathom the exact explanation for the alleged failure. Or the reasons behind the way they have handled this situation.
To the OP, I was going off your previous post that you emailed CCH last night...seemed as though it was after the thread was listed...though that's completely beside the point... I just wanted to argue that everyone handles situations differently...
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sspssp
Jan 4, 2006, 12:11 AM
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In reply to: Out of the whole thing, what I find absolutely unbelievable is that the OP actually had pictures of the setup, prefall, and fall. I guess it was a good thing that they had a camera when this happened so they could document it so well.
I guess cameras really are everywhere and I guess [ at least in this case] that is a good thing.
I was also impressed with these shots. Including the cam flying through the air as the leader starts to catch on the next piece down.
If somebody had posted that such a low fall factor had caused the cam to fail without the photos, I wouldn't have given it much credence unless I knew something about the poster.
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tradgal
Jan 4, 2006, 12:14 AM
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Like they say, opinions are like assholes--we all have them.
But, if the failures of these cams are "documented," I doubt they would still be on the market. The defects of the cams are documented on a forum (axle drilling). The actual strength and safety tests on those defects have note been publicly posted or completed. If completed, they may prove CCH to be the producers of ill-manufactured, usafe cams. I am just asking that we all wait for definitive proof not opinions. Same with this instance of the stem coming apart from the head of the cam.
As for poor customer service--that's as prevalent as assholes in this world. Though, it has been my experience that CCH has treated me well.
I do know CCH is small company and doesn't have the staff that say, REI has. Not debating that. But any business owner should/ and probably does have some business plan (whether written or conceptual) about how to handle "crisis manangement." CCH has somethings to learn about that...
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shutupandbelay
Jan 4, 2006, 12:22 AM
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To all you cch lovers... I have never liked the things and have always used the original tcu taking many fine whips on them. It is a reassuring feeling to trust in ones protection.
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sixleggedinsect
Jan 4, 2006, 12:23 AM
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In reply to: But, if the failures of these cams are "documented," I doubt they would still be on the market.
there is photographic evidence that
1. there were fall forces well below the published strength rating for the cam, and
2. the soldering failed
which counts for documention in my book.
from my dusty brazing/soldering experience, that looks like a bad joint to me. didnt clean the head, or cold soldered it, or used the wrong flux/solder, id venture to guess. all of those would be serious and repeatable problems.
i dont want to bounce test my aliens and then hope for the best. anyways, the forces generated in bounce testing won't guarantee you anywhere strength anywhere near real high factor fall forces. i want to KNOW they're going to fail near or at (or above) their rated strength if i put them in a good spot. nothing less is acceptable.
CCH product testing/quality control: joe-schmoe bounce testing his cams in his basement. great.
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thrutch
Jan 4, 2006, 12:37 AM
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tcus are the way to go, anything else is far inferior.
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tradgal
Jan 4, 2006, 12:40 AM
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perhaps we hold different opinions of the word "documented."
If someone on this website tells me aliens have invaded earth and have taken over the whitehouse--you better believe that I will be watching CNN or another reputable source. I wouldn't be asking another forum consultant...
Call me paranoid, skeptical, silly, whatever. But, I require more proof than someone posting a picture. I know I have tooled around with photoshop before.
And, before everyone gets all huffy and puffy--I am NOT accusing the OP of lying or fixing a photo. I simply want to hear from CCH as to why/how/if this happenned. Some of you may remember in Feb '05 a similar post was made and no photos were ever shown. The all-mighty rc.com'ers labeled that incidence a "hoax." Was it? We may never know. The OP of that thread has never logged on again...
I hope that if indeed this is a TRUE problem with Aliens, that CCH remedies the problem before anyone gets hurt and in a respectable manner.
Siding with skepticism or innocent until proven guilty, the "break" between the head of the cam and the stem looks WAY too clean to be a break. Also, and I am not sure, but by looking at my orange Alien, if that seam bewteen the head and stem were broken, then the wires connecting the lobes to the stem would also have to have broke for that piece to have failed. Wouldn't the entire piece be busted more so than what is shown? Or wouldn't the metal piece that the wires are connect to be apart from the stem itself.
Again, these are questions that came to mind whil looking at my Alien and the pictures...
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sixleggedinsect
Jan 4, 2006, 12:56 AM
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In reply to: perhaps we hold different opinions of the word "documented." If someone on this website tells me aliens have invaded earth and have taken over the whitehouse--you better believe that I will be watching CNN or another reputable source. I wouldn't be asking another forum consultant... Call me paranoid, skeptical, silly, whatever. But, I require more proof than someone posting a picture. I know I have tooled around with photoshop before.
tradgal, im rolling my eyes here. your alien analogy is bogus. and the climbing media? there is a good argument to be made that we are the climbing media. you going to wait for some climbing mag editor to deck when his alien breaks to hear anything about it? and you think those pictures were photoshopped? so that the OP could start this thread? have you been reading? are you for real?
In reply to: Siding with skepticism or innocent until proven guilty, the "break" between the head of the cam and the stem looks WAY too clean to be a break. Also, and I am not sure, but by looking at my orange Alien, if that seam bewteen the head and stem were broken, then the wires connecting the lobes to the stem would also have to have broke for that piece to have failed. Wouldn't the entire piece be busted more so than what is shown? Or wouldn't the metal piece that the wires are connect to be apart from the stem itself.
the failure looks clean because there was a weak bond between the cable and the head. the soldering job was botched. do you know anything about joining metals?
the trigger wires are not broken because as soon as the stem failed, the load came onto the wires and effectively cleaned the cam.
i think giving cch the benefit of the doubt here is really pushing it. i understand that you have had good experiences with cch in the past, but you are really stretching your agenda with these last couple posts.
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mr8615
Jan 4, 2006, 1:06 AM
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I'm going to toss my hat in the 'skepticism' ring as well. Not saying that these photos are photoshopped, but I do have a few questions for the climber. Why did you double up there, and only there? If you had already fallen there before and doubled up while hanging, you would've placed a cam below the cam you fell on (meaning that you fell on the orange alien, then placed the bd to back it up after the fall). It looks like you had planned on falling there, is that the crux of the route? (anyone else with route beta?)
Why do you have perfectly timed pictures of you falling? Most falling photos are taken by chance or dumb luck, unless the climber is falling on purpose, yet you have perfectly timed before and after photos.
Perhaps I'm doubtful merely because I don't want to believe this actually happened, I love my aliens...
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radistrad
Jan 4, 2006, 1:08 AM
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I just dont see the alien in the crack before the fall, is it above his foot? Also the alien appears to be falling with him in the second picture, apparently attached to the rope by a black 'biner (the only black one I can see on your rack), but the sling does not appear to be attached to the biner.
It is a bit hard to see. Does any one else see this?
I have over 20 aliens, all over a year old, but I sure will worry if they are really failing this way, I dont back up my aliens with a camalot 2 feet under them...
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insainio
Jan 4, 2006, 1:29 AM
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In reply to: I'm going to toss my hat in the 'skepticism' ring as well. Not saying that these photos are photoshopped, but I do have a few questions for the climber. Why did you double up there, and only there? If you had already fallen there before and doubled up while hanging, you would've placed a cam below the cam you fell on (meaning that you fell on the orange alien, then placed the bd to back it up after the fall). It looks like you had planned on falling there, is that the crux of the route? (anyone else with route beta?) Why do you have perfectly timed pictures of you falling? Most falling photos are taken by chance or dumb luck, unless the climber is falling on purpose, yet you have perfectly timed before and after photos. Perhaps I'm doubtful merely because I don't want to believe this actually happened, I love my aliens...
I backed it up because it was right before the crux of the climb (for me), it was a on-sight attempt and it was far enough off the ground that if the piece were to fail, I would get really hurt. That's why I backed it up. To create a system (as previously pointed out).
The pictures were a case of dumb luck. End of story. NOT photoshop.
And the "black" biner is actually a Omega JC wire gate.
Kevin
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rcpeters
Jan 4, 2006, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I backed it up because it was right before the crux of the climb (for me), it was a on-sight attempt If it was an onsight attempt, how did you know what the crux of the climb would be (for you)?? (kevin, don't take it personally, i'm just playing devil's advocate :twisted: )
Your question is silly. Good lead climbers can tell when a crux is coming.
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arostecrux
Jan 4, 2006, 2:15 AM
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Faith in the product has been lost. Companies don't deserve to be in business, they have to earn that right. Sounds like this outfit is serious trouble. Climbing cam manufacturers need flawless safety records and great customer service, without either how can they be trusted with your life? I'm definitely not going to buy any aliens anytime soon. I guess that makes shopping for cams a bit easier now :(.....the jury is still out but it doesn't look good.
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healyje
Jan 4, 2006, 2:26 AM
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Tradgal (and mr8615),
I love my two sets of hybrids too, but at this point it is you that is being over-the-top and quite unevenly handed in this discussion. It has now been repeatedly pointed out to you that there have been a number of incidents of various types over the course of the past 12 months. Multiple people here and at Supertopo, including myself, reported it taking months of repeated unanswered inquiries to get a cam repair completed and returned. Again, these are very real manufacturing and service problems that are all well documented. And none of this is lost on other cam makers in general and the industry as a whole has a very real and valid interest in CCH not screwing up badly again and again and then not publicly and formally responding in any way. Now you can persist all you want in the same vein of questioning the validity of the op and photos but you are rapidly approaching a point of diminishing credibility not to mention generating some serious doubt about your mechanical knowledge of the subject along the way.
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clayman
Jan 4, 2006, 2:34 AM
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In reply to: Awhile ago I had two sets of small cams - BD's and Aliens. When I added a third set, I added more BD's... not because I like them better, but because I just can't trust Aliens.
What made you decide that you couldn't trust CCH? (excluding this thread) You seem to imply that you climb on all three sets, is this true? If you can't trust them why climb on them?
cl
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saxonyclimber
Jan 4, 2006, 2:43 AM
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I thought cch was planning on responding this afternoon. I understand that they are probably being conservative or making sure that they are covering their rear ends before releasing a statement. Still, it would be nice to hear from them.
I don't see the photos as questionable, because I have frequently seen people start to shake and struggle when they are about to fall. When I am gripped, I will frequently place an extra piece. All it takes is your buddy to stand there ready to capture your fall on film when he sees you thrashing, hears your whining or observes your legs elvising.
I have also seen people intentionally fall for a photo op. If this was the case, it is still inexcusable for a piece to fail as the result of an average fall.
I would say that the crux of this climb is the start, but I have seen many people fall as they get pumped higher up.
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mr8615
Jan 4, 2006, 3:19 AM
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In reply to: Tradgal (and mr8615), Now you can persist all you want in the same vein of questioning the validity of the op and photos but you are rapidly approaching a point of diminishing credibility not to mention generating some serious doubt about your mechanical knowledge of the subject along the way.
Well put! As I said, I'm merely playing the devils advocate, and enjoying rc.com, not sincerely attacking the op or the validity of his pictures. I am doing my own research for my own peace of mind. I do take others' experience into account (including well reported, if honest :P incidents such as this one) as well.
Thanks for your thoughtful and articulate input, as always.
Mark
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sbaclimber
Jan 4, 2006, 3:26 AM
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In reply to: I am doing my own research for my own piece of mind. |
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mr8615
Jan 4, 2006, 3:30 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am doing my own research for my own piece of mind. What happened to the rest of it? :wink:
Haha, awesome, set myself up for that one, eh? :oops: (i'll be fixing it now...)
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skinkididoo
Jan 4, 2006, 4:04 AM
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This is not quite the same problem, but after reading this thread, i went to go check my own Aliens (purple through gray) which I was given for my birthday March 2005. Most of them checked out except for the blue one, which appears to have been manufactured somewhat incorrectly
I have pictures of it at
http://photobucket.com/...ide/Sketchy%20Alien/
There is an unusually large gap between the lobes on the right and because of this (maybe??) The spring on that side is not working correctly, as in it doesnt snap all the way open when you release the trigger. I don't think it has always been this way and possibly the large gap between the lobes has caused this. The lobes on all the rest of my aliens are much closer together than this and they are all still very snappy when you release the trigger.
Seems like when I return this to REI, it might be best to bide my time and buy one of the new C3's when they come out instead of getting another alien...
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fear
Jan 4, 2006, 6:38 AM
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Everyone take a deep breath and calm down... Jeez.... Like a bunch of pansies.....
We now know there might be a problem with some recent Aliens. Climbing is dangerous. Remember? The gear might pull, the rock might break, the biner might unclip or break itself. And sometimes, yes, the gear itself fails. People die and stuff. Take up chess if you don't like it. Grow up.
Talking of lawsuits is absurd and would result in all of us paying $500.00 for each 2 pound steel cam. So let's stop that bullsh1t right now.
Now that ample evidence has been provided of a head ripping off with pics to boot, give CCH a few days to respond.
Until then at least put your Orange Aliens on a shelf and back up other aliens with other gear. If you're betting your @ss on one piece of gear, whatever the brand, then that's the choice you make and you live or die with that decision.
If CCH does not respond in a week or so with an action plan(recalls, inspection, etc) then the market and word of mouth will quickly determine CCH's fate. It won't take long these days...
-Fear
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leapinlizard
Jan 4, 2006, 6:58 AM
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Aliens still rock.
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