|
|
|
|
winkwinklambonini
Apr 1, 2006, 3:15 PM
Post #1 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 1579
|
It's been months since it happened, and now that he's definitely OK, I feel better writing about it, although I feel like being vague on some of the details. This kind of accident is more common than I imagined.
I am part of what you would call a trio of climbers/friends who learned a very traditional ethic at a reputable outdoor college, and we have been climbing together for the ten years since. During that time I can count on one hand the number of times I have fallen OR hung on trad gear, and have had one close call that I'm aware of.
So the other two moved out west to live near the best trad crag in the country, and when I flew out to climb with them, we got strait into making fun of each other as usual. One topic I made fun of them for was their habit of not doing anything about the fact their ropes were barely/ not long enough in some cases. They responded by calling me fatty..... On the second to last climb buddy1 conceded by tying a second rope on the original for me, although they both vowed to get 70m ropes(a limited solution in my view). Anyway, buddy1 flaked out rope for another climb, and asked who's giving him a ride...Buddy2 and I looked at each other and I said "I think it's my turn". I habitually grabbed the top of the flaked rope and tossed it to 1 and hooked in a couple of arm lengths down, without tying a knot on the end......
On his way up I asked 2 if the rope was long enough, and he said it was. Then we started joking about if it wasn't, I'd just lower him off the rope and then we'd have a team of two. Everyone laughed, and 2 said "yeah, we haven't climbed this since we trimmed it!". "Ha Ha", I laughed well.(It was when 1 was getting an x ray I learned 2 wasn't kidding......) We were still laughing about something while I was lowering 1, he had just pushed off the wall to clear a ledge about 30' up. I very clearly remember the rope becoming light and floppy, and a split second later the sight of 1's falling body eclipsing the rope end. Since he had just pushed off, he fell upright, through a branch, and sat on a flat rock. I assumed he broke his back and ankles. He just sat there with huge eyes huffing and puffing. After a few minutes it was clear he was relatively OK, and he insisted on walking out before the Adrenalin wore off. In the months after he developed a back problem that has since gotten better, but he never told me the details of it.
Lessons:
Buddy1 said it best after-wards:"Close the system, always"
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Apr 1, 2006, 4:21 PM
Post #2 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
LUCKY. if you dont close the system, at LEAST tie a knot on the "dead" end.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Apr 7, 2006, 8:35 AM
Post #3 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
I do not think you were careless , I feel you had too much confidence in yourself and your system. Most accident I read are based on very simple mistakes due to over confidence and forgetting the basic . When we do not know much about climbing we check every thing and we ask too many times, then when we get some miles on our harness we stop checking the basic stuff.
we should always treat climbing like its our first time since we can not effort any mistakes in this business. Last year a guy fell full pitch, his partner said off belay, he heard on belay, in between on and off belay the guy on top put his weight on the rope assuming he was on belay and fell . He was in bad shape but alive.
I hope your friend recovers soon
Majid
|
|
|
|
|
saxfiend
Apr 7, 2006, 11:31 AM
Post #4 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2004
Posts: 1208
|
I'm not clear on what actually happened here. You said you were lowering the climber, right (he was not rapping)? So did the end of the rope come through your belay device, causing him to fall? If so, how did you not notice that you were running out of rope? Or was the climber not tied in? Maybe I'm missing something from your story . . . Anyway, I'm glad your buddy was not hurt worse.
JL
|
|
|
|
|
reg
Apr 7, 2006, 12:34 PM
Post #5 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
In reply to: LUCKY. if you dont close the system, at LEAST tie a knot on the "dead" end.
what does "closed" mean?
wow - everytime i hear about these "mishaps" i shutter - cause i don't want to be landin on my butt from thirty feet up! sure keeps me thinkin!
here's hopin he makes a full recovery and continues climbin as is always the wish in these situations!
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Apr 7, 2006, 1:01 PM
Post #6 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Closed means that either the belayer is tied into the other end of the rope, or that there at least is a knot in the end. This type of accident has been happening with increasing regularity these days.
I guide out here in JTree and one of the first lessons we teach people is to tie in. Always close the system.
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
reg
Apr 7, 2006, 1:29 PM
Post #7 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
In reply to: Closed means that either the belayer is tied into the other end of the rope, or that there at least is a knot in the end. This type of accident has been happening with increasing regularity these days. I guide out here in JTree and one of the first lessons we teach people is to tie in. Always close the system. Robert
thanks for that
|
|
|
|
|
olderic
Apr 7, 2006, 1:41 PM
Post #8 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
|
In reply to: I'm not clear on what actually happened here. You said you were lowering the climber, right (he was not rapping)? So did the end of the rope come through your belay device, causing him to fall? If so, how did you not notice that you were running out of rope? Or was the climber not tied in? Maybe I'm missing something from your story . . . Anyway, I'm glad your buddy was not hurt worse. JL
My thought exactly. If (and maybe this is a bad assumption) YOU were lowering hom and the end of the rope went through YOUR belay device then the responsibility is yours - no matter how you try and rationalize it by describing your friends' caviler attidudes. Unless you are blind, or it's dark, you should be able to monitor how much rope is left as you lower him. I know this type of accident happens all the time usually because people are too relaxed and sometimes a contributing factor is being unfamilar with the length of the climb and rope - but come on - just pay attention as you are lowering - it's not that difficult.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 7, 2006, 2:51 PM
Post #9 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: I do not think you were careless , I feel you had too much confidence in yourself and your system.
These two statements (seperated by a comma) are inconsistent.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
ambler
Apr 7, 2006, 3:59 PM
Post #10 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2002
Posts: 1690
|
When I was younger and stupider this very nearly happened to me. Without thinking about it, I was getting lowered off a long lead with a not-long-enough rope. About 30 feet off the deck my belayer called up "Can you get your weight off the rope?" I quickly grabbed some holds and pulled in, then looked down to see that the whole rope had slid through the belayer's ATC, and was being held overhead by one hand. Shocking moment for us both.
It's unfortunate that it took such a shock, but since then I've been much more thoughtful about pitch length and knots in the end. The other thing I did was switch to bi-pattern ropes, which provide useful information as well.
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Apr 7, 2006, 4:34 PM
Post #11 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
This sort of thing does happen a lot. I've seen experienced climbers do it.
IT is carelessness, absolutely, along with complacency, when someone who really should know better does it.
When a beginner does it, I'd say more stupidity or ignorance is involved as well.
Either way, it can be a lot of trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
fearlessclimber
Apr 7, 2006, 6:34 PM
Post #12 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 27, 2005
Posts: 474
|
ew, coffee milk
|
|
|
|
|
fearlessclimber
Apr 7, 2006, 6:36 PM
Post #13 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 27, 2005
Posts: 474
|
ew, coffee milk
|
|
|
|
|
jaybro
Apr 7, 2006, 6:55 PM
Post #14 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2005
Posts: 441
|
Of course you were careless, it happens. Always watch the end of the rope, sometiems you have to come up with a last minute plan; belayer climbs up, get another rope, go to the store if that what it takes.
This didn't have to happen, but it could have happened to any of us.
|
|
|
|
|
pastprime
Apr 7, 2006, 8:14 PM
Post #15 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
|
It used to be, in the climbing culture, that when we heard of a few preventable accidents from the same cause, whatever was standard practice was changed so these things wouldn't happen again. It was much the same approach as is taken with airplane crashes.
Since the advent of sport and gym climbing, the culture seems to have changed to one of accepting repeated accidents from the same easily preventable cause, and continuing the same practices.
Every so often, one more sport climber gets dropped off the end of a short rope, and we get a stream of how tragic it was and what a great person they were and how sad it is for their family; but no one ever seems to think it a great enough tragedy to be worth the 10 seconds it would take to start tying a knot in the end of the rope as a standard practice so the same thing won't happen again.
The whole point of standard practices is that you do them all the time, and then you have one less thing you have to keep track of. It takes a lot less effort, in the long run.
I am particularly chagrined when I see, a lot, people tying a backup knot on their figure eight, which is preventing about as long a long shot as their is, but leaving the belay end of the rope unknotted, which keeps on causing accidents every few months.
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Apr 7, 2006, 8:45 PM
Post #16 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
This part is an important follow up to what wink wink says about don't assume your rope is long enough.
I took a couple out to do a route I had put up 15 years previously and also which I had done the year before with the very same exact rope.
Previous year - same rope - both ends had reached, but just barely @ 2 feet above the ground, while rapping.
Next year, didn't reach by almost 10 feet. That's bigtime shrinkage and the rope was NOT cut off or shortened and the rock had not grown. We saw the ends and it was obvious, so I got laughed at which is always funny since no one was hurt of course.
Ropes do shrink. I suspect this very issue may tag me at some point for just this reason. Don't think a longer rope will fix the issue either, the fix is upstairs in our heads, tie a knot on the end of the rope or tie in the other end.
I'm just as guilty of it as the next person.
Thanks for the reminder wink.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Apr 7, 2006, 9:11 PM
Post #17 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: we should always treat climbing like its our first time since we can not effort any mistakes in this business. Last year a guy fell full pitch, his partner said off belay, he heard on belay, in between on and off belay the guy on top put his weight on the rope assuming he was on belay and fell . He was in bad shape but alive.
In reply to: The whole point of standard practices is that you do them all the time, and then you have one less thing you have to keep track of. It takes a lot less effort, in the long run. I am particularly chagrined when I see, a lot, people tying a backup knot on their figure eight, which is preventing about as long a long shot as their is, but leaving the belay end of the rope unknotted, which keeps on causing accidents every few months.
This brings up a couple of interesting points that I don't think have simple answers.
It isn't realistic to tell people that they should treat every lead like their first time. It would be great if people could, but after hundreds of leads, people just don't operate that way. That is why it is critical to have great habbits and never deviate from them (or only deviate if you really go back to the beginner mentality and think everything through).
Sport climbing and gym leads, it is awkward to expect the belayer to always tie in when they are not likely to be seconding the climb (either they don't climb it all or the rope is pulled and they lead it).
I think it is a better habbit to always leave the end of the rope tied into the rope bag. You can't lower the leader off the end, you aren't dependent on the belayer tying in to close the system and if you forget to untie the knot, you will usually see the rope bag pick up off the ground in time to stop and untie the knot.
I think this system is great and it is the one I use.
However, with that said, it can be very dangerous to rely on the habbits that other climbers may not share. My regular partners all tie the rope into the bag. One day, belaying a leader who was not a regular partner, I almost lowered him off the end of the rope because I was belaying his rope, out of his rope bag, and he didn't have the rope tied to the bag (nor did he store the rope with a knot tied in the end).
As an aside concerning the backup knot. I think this is an important habbit that most climbers unfortunately drop. If you tie the figure 8 correctly, you don't need it. But I know someone who was critically hurt by not finishing the knot and the knot pulled through. This isn't such a rare accident. If you are always in the habbit of tying a backup knot, it would be very hard to not have finished the figure 8 and the backup would hold if you somehow tied the backup without having finished the figure 8.
End of my rant
cheers
|
|
|
|
|
boardline22
Apr 7, 2006, 9:29 PM
Post #18 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2005
Posts: 652
|
when you say "close the system" do you mean to tie yourself i like you are going to top rope and/second it. Also to tie a know at the end you just use an overhand knot right?
|
|
|
|
|
sinshan
Apr 7, 2006, 9:45 PM
Post #19 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 93
|
In reply to: Previous year - same rope - both ends had reached, but just barely @ 2 feet above the ground, while rapping. Next year, didn't reach by almost 10 feet. That's bigtime shrinkage and the rope was NOT cut off or shortened and the rock had not grown.
True, rock doesn't grow, but at places like Smith Rock, the climbs do tend to get longer due to heavy erosion around the base. I've seen first bolts that one year were 6' off the ground, the next 9' or more. Not sure this is a reason for what you're describing, but it does make me wonder. . .
t.
|
|
|
|
|
pastprime
Apr 7, 2006, 9:58 PM
Post #20 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
|
Ropes get shorter and fatter with use. Just the opposite of what you would expect. Significantly shorter, with lots of hard use. Being pulled over a sharp radius bend when loaded, as when being lowered or repelling, has the effect of bunching up the fibers, for some reason.
|
|
|
|
|
collegekid
Apr 7, 2006, 10:44 PM
Post #21 of 21
(4121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2002
Posts: 1852
|
I too was the victim of a "I was careless, and too comfortable" accident.
Be careful, people!
|
|
|
|
|
|
