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scrapedape
Apr 17, 2006, 3:15 PM
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Got this from a partner who was climbing at Seneca over the weekend. It's clear that there were some pretty big forces involved, so it's not exactly clear that the Alien was defective. But given the recent history, I thought this was worth sharing. Hopefully more details will emerge soon.
In reply to: There had been a bad accident on the Southern Pillar- guy ripped out all gear but a yellow metolius. Broke both ankles on a ledge. Will Dameron, a PA hard-man and soon-to-be Seneca guide soloed up to this guy and built an anchor. His friend and guide “JJ” also lead up to him and they rescued the guy. He blew a green alien “APART”. Literally like an umbrella. About 80 feet total. |
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jabtocrag
Apr 17, 2006, 3:25 PM
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Hopefully someone will post some specifics on this.
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duckwalk
Apr 17, 2006, 3:38 PM
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"Literally like an umbrella" leaves room for the possiblility that it was placed too open, and as they don't have cam stops, this can happen. I'm sorry for the accident, and as stated hopefully the specifics will be posted. Also, good job on the rescue effort.
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the_mitt
Apr 17, 2006, 3:40 PM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:44 PM)
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 3:46 PM
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In reply to: "Literally like an umbrella" leaves room for the possiblility that it was placed too open, and as they don't have cam stops, this can happen. I'm sorry for the accident, and as stated hopefully the specifics will be posted. Also, good job on the rescue effort.
i agree.. that was my first thought as well.
good luck on the recovery for the climber.
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2006, 3:54 PM
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Hope the climber is ok.
Ripped 'all' gear but a metolius? How much gear are we talking?
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j_ung
Apr 17, 2006, 3:55 PM
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I haven't been anywhere near the Southern Pillar in a looooonnnnng time, but if memory serves (and it might not!) rock quality may have played a role in the overall length of the fall.
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nowinowski
Apr 17, 2006, 3:56 PM
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what route?
well placed and non defective these things are very strong. I have taken a 25 foot near factor 2 and just last weekend a 25 footer (lower impact). What other gear was ripped ? How experienced was the leader (at seneca?)
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jacurry243
Apr 17, 2006, 4:04 PM
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Gephart
Apparently most of his gear was poorly placed. Potential user error, sad to say. He actually popped the alien out at his waist so I agree it must have been totally tipped out.
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rhythm164
Apr 17, 2006, 4:06 PM
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The umbrella comment almost makes it sound like it was placed in a passive orientation.
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rhythm164
Apr 17, 2006, 4:07 PM
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the umbrealla comment almost makes it sound like the Alien was placed in a passive orientation.
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 4:49 PM
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i think the title is unfair towards CCH.. it's not their fault the guy placed a ton of shit gear that pulled, especially when you dont mention any of the other things that pulled and only that the metolius cam held.
it's sad that people are going to start thinking that just because their gear doesnt hold it's the fault of the company and won't take responsibility themselves for not placing it correctly
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clayman
Apr 17, 2006, 4:58 PM
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^^^^what he said
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kachoong
Apr 17, 2006, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: i think the title is unfair towards CCH.. it's not their fault the guy placed a ton of s--- gear that pulled, especially when you dont mention any of the other things that pulled and only that the metolius cam held. it's sad that people are going to start thinking that just because their gear doesnt hold it's the fault of the company and won't take responsibility themselves for not placing it correctly
I hope the guy makes a speedy and full recovery.
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jacurry243
Apr 17, 2006, 5:00 PM
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Agreed about the title/Alien implication. It is a good cam and will fit where most others will not.
One note:
Yes, it had the dimple in the stem. Also, although the guy mentioned he had been climbing for 5 years, I recognized that his gear was BRAND new, consisted of ovals, some Omega D-s and BRAND new BW slings, as well as his aliens. Okay, where have we seen all of that type gear? REI.
One sign of his experience level = he was utilizing locking biners to rack his cams.
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up_for_a_good_time
Apr 17, 2006, 5:13 PM
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Let's play nice. Just because he and I on occassion use locking biners to rack up doesn't mean that we're always beginners. Whether it was indeed a bunch of shitty placements that ripped or it was a single small stopper and a big runout, I'm sure a lesson was learned. I trust we are all concerned about the safety and welfare of the fallen climber more so than we are about ragging on his experience....ahem.
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styndall
Apr 17, 2006, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: The umbrella comment almost makes it sound like it was placed in a passive orientation.
There is no passive orientation for Aliens. They don't have stops.
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veganboyjosh
Apr 17, 2006, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The umbrella comment almost makes it sound like it was placed in a passive orientation. There is no passive orientation for Aliens. They don't have stops.
...which would explain the popped umbrella situation...
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: One note: Yes, it had the dimple in the stem.
:shock: :shock: Climbing on Recalled gear is NOT a smart move. If this failed like the one a few months ago then it is still User error and not the fault of CCH.. they recalled them for a reason
climbing for 5 years and leading trad is a whole different story.
though new gear doesnt always denote nOOb.. take Kate's rack.. had to be replaced.. all shiny.. still has miles under her belt even if the gear doesn't
and yes the lesson was hopefully learned by him. the point of the discussion is to make sure OTHERS don't make the same mistake.
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bennydh
Apr 17, 2006, 5:38 PM
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It has no passive orientation.....but was placed that way anyway?
= why it looks like an Umbrella.
Doesn't sound like loads of experience for sure, but I still hope he recovers well and climbs again safer....maybe share this unfortunate accident story with others since it can easily be prevented. Maybe someone wants to post a link on this forum for this guy and others on a section or old gear post on why it, and other cams, cannot be placed passively.
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jakedatc
Apr 17, 2006, 5:42 PM
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a cam doesnt have to be placed passively to be pulled out in an umbrella fashion.. just under cammed ie cam too small for the crack.
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healyje
Apr 17, 2006, 5:55 PM
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Hopefully he'll be alright. Sounds like while this may have been a dimpled cam the stem braze held well enough to survive the forces involved with pulling a too-wide placement. Might have been lucky in that respect if he had managed to place it decent. Somewhat unbelievable someone would be climbing on a dimpled unit, though. Probably a sign we all still need to keep an eye out and ask if they know about the recall when you see someone with Aliens.
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kachoong
Apr 17, 2006, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: Somewhat unbelievable someone would be climbing on a dimpled unit, though. Probably a sign we all still need to keep an eye out and ask if they know about the recall when you see someone with Aliens.
Either way, word of mouth is a very useful tool in preventing accidents. Not everybody will be up to speed with the latest news on gear, even if the Alien recall is five months old.... heck, I didn't even know a lot of people climbed mixed routes without leashes until a year or two ago.... :wink: (not that I'd be better off knowing or not)
It is definately up to each and every one of us to be as informed and knowlegable about the gear we purchase and how to use it correctly and effectively (lets hope this guy didn't buy his alien from a store after the recall), however it shouldn't stop us climbing partners and the on-looking climbing community to ask questions and inform people nicely on their visible mistakes when we see them.
Who's to know if this accident could have been prevented, as I'm sure he'd still be on the same climb with the same rack minus the alien. Any gear, whether it is defective or not, is only as strong and effective as the final placement and orientation when fallen on....
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porcelainsunset
Apr 17, 2006, 6:55 PM
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I think we all did a much better job responding to this news than we did last time. However, I am personally tired of seeing people post up threads like this with very sensitive titles (this one very biased in my opinion) and then giving the readers very little information to try and understand what went wrong. Posting new forms about sensitive issues like this in an effort to inform the RC.com masses, without giving all the information available is not something that helps this site out. If you hear about an accident and want to talk about it on RC.com, either create a thread asking questions, or create a thread that lets us know what really happened, don't do neither.
There's my to cents.
However, good job on the rescue, and I hope that the injured climber has a speedy and complete recovery.
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veganboyjosh
Apr 17, 2006, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Somewhat unbelievable someone would be climbing on a dimpled unit, though. Probably a sign we all still need to keep an eye out and ask if they know about the recall when you see someone with Aliens. Great point! If any wisdom can be taken from this thread it should be this. It is VERY possible that someone can have no knowledge of a recall if they don't frequent climbing stores, read websites like this or read mags.
i climbed at shelf road this weekend, and a party next to us (who was from boulder/longmont) had their trad rack laying with their packs, and someone in our party mentioned gimpy aliens, and when we brought up the recall, they (the other party) thought we were joking.
we explained the details,a nd showed them where the dimple woulda been, etc. their cams were all pre-05, by at least 5 years, i believe, but it was a kind of wakeup call that not all climbers frequent teh interweb or climbing stores or mags. and these folks were from boulder, where i'd'a thought they woulda heard about it at least...
but yeah, when i see someone with them racked, i do try to bring it up. just a simple "you know about the alien recall?" seems to work.
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