|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Sep 25, 2002, 3:23 AM
Post #1 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
I showed up at my local climbing area, which is primarilly toproping with some stiff leads hear and there. There is very little under 5.9 here.
On a classic climb, 2 guys were starting to drill another anchor bolt at the top of a classic climb.
This climb had no bolts on the top of it for at least the first 26 years I have climbed it. About a year ago someone put 2 Rawl 5-pieces in. They were unneccessary as there is plenty of cracks and trees for pro and runners. But they were solid bolts and no one bothered them.
Anyway, after a stiff debate: the gentleman refuses my wishes and requests for no more bolts by saying it's a safety issue. He felt I had no say in the matter, but he did shut up when I told him I'd been climbing in the area for 29 years. "The one hanger spins", he says, "it's unsafe". I tell him bolts are unnecessary there at all, and were not on the route for at least 26 years, and furthermore, it (the spinner) has looked like a good bolt to me ever since someone had put it in the previous year.
It was not a saftey issue IMO, but they ignored me and put it in anyway.
Then neither of them could climb the route on toprope: a relatively easy and short 5.10A.
Later I looked at the bolt: it is way too close to the existing "spinner". Factory advice is that you give at least 1 1/2 times the length of the bolt as spacing. This bolt does not offer that much space, and in fact by it's position it is weakening both placements. Not by any big amount, but its the point. And the hanger is turned upside-down also.
I guess I have several issues. Beyond the obvious ones: it looks like new people need the bolts as they do not know how to set up a toprope anchor. These guys evidently did not know how either and were 100 percent dependant on having the bolts there.
So the big question is:........
Should I chop em or leave em? Being Rawl 5 piece, I should say, unscrew them and epoxy the holes or leave em. No need to actually chop anything.
I know what Royal Robbins would say, and I am leaning towards his viewpoint.
I'd like to hear the general opinion on this one.
Advice?
Regards to all:
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
astone
Sep 25, 2002, 3:42 AM
Post #2 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2002
Posts: 183
|
Though you have been climbing since before I was born, our opinions are pretty similar on this issue.
I say chop away. I am sick of seeing unnecessary and unsightly bolts left by those who should spend more time climbing and less time drilling.
|
|
|
|
|
therelic
Sep 25, 2002, 4:14 AM
Post #3 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2002
Posts: 136
|
Bill, this guys argument for placing the bolt is very weak. Sounds to me like he should learn how to climb, learn how to bolt, find his own crag, one that isn’t on public land, then go for it there. Send me the coordinates of the bolt and I will personally remove it for you the next time I am in Portland.
Cheers,
Bill
[ This Message was edited by: therelic on 2002-09-24 23:53 ]
|
|
|
|
|
andy_lemon
Sep 25, 2002, 4:34 AM
Post #4 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2001
Posts: 3335
|
Quote:Then neither of them could climb the route on toprope: a relatively easy and short 5.10A.
Just out of curiousity... what does this statement have to do with anything?
About the bolts... If the route had been climbed for 26 years without them then why were they put in? Maybe it is a popular route and alot of people are slinging trees and maybe the trees are showing abuse. Do you know of any laws or issues concerning the trees being slinged?
If the bolts are installed incorrectly like you say then that is a safety issue and should be addressed.
Andy
|
|
|
|
|
rockfax
Sep 25, 2002, 4:41 AM
Post #5 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2001
Posts: 652
|
Here's a quote from someone old and wise on this issue. I don't expect any of you to have heard of him.
"Even awkward descents are being removed. No need to walk down from the Grochan now (quite a tricky little descent), as there is a great big abseil sling on a tree. Same at Tremadog. Yesterday I found and removed a great big fixed sling on the Milestone Direct. What was that for ... a quick descent to avoid the tiresome awkward bit of a scrambling descent. Such ground used to be valued for inculcating fast moving on mixed ground skills ... these days (particularly with the advent of ballet shoes for all ... scrambling descents are regarded as more "awkward bits" to be got rid of. They all fall into the category of processing the environment to make it more cuddly, make it nice for "exercise" rather than uncertain for "climbing".
Ken Wilson:
This is the crux:
"They all fall into the category of processing the environment to make it more cuddly, make it nice for "exercise" rather than uncertain for "climbing".
Mick
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Sep 25, 2002, 5:35 AM
Post #6 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
Normally I don't care too much about anchor bolts as long as they aren't obnoxious, completely unnecessary, or poorly placed.
Given the history of the crag and the situation as you've represented it I would think it's fair to chop 'em.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Sep 25, 2002, 5:50 AM
Post #7 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
If you do chop, don't do the chicken crap thing. Contact the individuals ahead of time and explain your stance one more time and give them the opportunity to remove it themselves.
If you do chop, don't just pull the hanger leaving a hole. That is more unsightly than just leaving it there. If your going to do it, do it right. Get some epoxy and bring a little bit of the rock gravel/dust from the base of the cliff to push onto the outer surface of your epoxy to better camofluage the hole.
This is of course assuming that indead it is not the nearby trees that are showing excessive damage from continually being used as a top rope anchor. Many cliffs across the US have a official ban from trees being used as top rope anchors due to the damage it causes them.
|
|
|
|
|
bsperes
Sep 25, 2002, 12:05 PM
Post #8 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 29, 2000
Posts: 292
|
I'll give my opinion as a feverent anti-chopper.
Chop the bolts. These guys have no business setting those bolts under the circumstances you gave. Is the land public or private? Talk to whoever is in charge about setting up some rules regarding bolts.
Certainly approach them first and tell them what is going to happen and why.
|
|
|
|
|
tradguy
Sep 25, 2002, 12:33 PM
Post #9 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 526
|
Maybe I'm an idiot, but I couldn't tell from the original post whether there are other anchor bolts at the top of other climbs in this area. Are there?? If so, I don't think you should remove the entire anchor. Maybe just pull the new one they placed incorrectly. If these are in fact the only bolts in the entire area, go ahead and pull them all. Bolts are like cancer. Once they get established, they spread fast, and are really difficult to kill off.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-09-25 05:33 ]
|
|
|
|
|
tim
Sep 25, 2002, 12:57 PM
Post #10 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 4, 2002
Posts: 4861
|
The guy knew full well that what he was doing was wrong. Roughster is being a bit of a pantywaist -- there will be no mystery as to who pulled the bolt(s), should you do so.
I can't believe that a two-bolt anchor is not enough for anyone on this earth to TR from, esp. a good, new, 1-year-old 2-bolt anchor.
Chop the new bolt, and maybe the old one that was weakened, if you feel like replacing it. Maybe the whole damn anchor -- 26 years is a long time for a route to be 'impossible to build an anchor for', don't you think? (obviously a rhetorical question )
If you want to be kind about it (or at least less unkind) you could always try and find his address, mail him the hardware, and write a note indicating why such behavior is unacceptable. This is public land, right? Because if it's private that's another story.
|
|
|
|
|
maskokalover
Sep 25, 2002, 1:55 PM
Post #11 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2002
Posts: 213
|
pull em and fill with epoxy. Those guys just thought that he was being all cool putting anchors in, so in 15 years he can say "ya know that anchor up there, yea, i placed that.." like, for bragging rites is not a reason to be drilling anchors. This guy is truly an idiot, so, pull em...
-----------
Cheers!
~mark
|
|
|
|
|
murf
Sep 25, 2002, 2:29 PM
Post #12 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 1150
|
Chop, chop, chop, chop em all.
Tom
|
|
|
|
|
dsafanda
Sep 25, 2002, 2:57 PM
Post #13 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 1025
|
Pull em!
|
|
|
|
|
spank_spank
Sep 25, 2002, 3:11 PM
Post #14 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 480
|
Bolt the World!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
wildtrail
Sep 25, 2002, 3:59 PM
Post #15 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 11063
|
Firstly, thanks for saying something to these jackasses. I personally, but I have a Bi-Polar problem, would have engaged them physically. Perhaps, pushed them off the cliff. In WI, we had a wonderful climbing area. It was closed because of moron climbers that can't get by without stupid bolts. 90% of the routes can be top roped with a 60m rope, the rest are trad leadable due to many cracks for pro.
I would take them out.
I personally think that bolts are only a necesary evil of climbing. I would love to be able to do away with them, but that would leave many great climbs, unclimbable. So, a necessary evil can be acceptable.
On top roped crags that are also trad leadable, people need to keep their stupid drills at home. If you can do it, STAY THE f--- OFF OF IT! PERIOD! I don't mess with routes I can't do and I sure as hell will never drill a hole.
Sorry, I get a little passionate.
Once again, I say remove them.
I'm doing that this winter, since WI climbers are typically wimps that won't brave the weather. There is a new area that I am being part of developing (FAs and trails, etc). A couple of years ago, some sport jackass bolted about seven established routes. I'm removing all 40 (approximately) bolts this winter.
Also, we are developing a "task force" of climbers involved that can be trusted. A number of people, including myself, to insure that there is almost one or two of us there on any given day. This "task force" will find and report any bolters as the DNR has implemented a fine of up to 1,000 and no less than 300 dollars. We will report these people and get them arrested, ticketed, or both. Can't wait.
Why are we doing that? Because we already have lost and have had a great crag ruined do to sporters. We AREN'T losing another. Our climbing advocacy group went through a lot with the DNR to secure this place for climbing (it was once illegal).
Bottom line, since I digressed so much, is that bolts aren't necessary when something is top ropable. A top rope IS a TRUE ascent. They are especially silly when trad and top rope are both possible.
Steve
|
|
|
|
|
crackwhore
Sep 25, 2002, 4:10 PM
Post #16 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2001
Posts: 195
|
i would remove the studs, then replace only the bolts and hangers with a little glue, then challenge the doods to lead it man style, ground up. when the leader falls to the ground after whipping on the bogus bolt, he'll be thinking ( if he's still alive ) man do i suck at placing bolts !!
problem solved
|
|
|
|
|
crackwhore
Sep 25, 2002, 4:11 PM
Post #17 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2001
Posts: 195
|
just kidding...
|
|
|
|
|
crackwhore
Sep 25, 2002, 4:11 PM
Post #18 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2001
Posts: 195
|
not...
|
|
|
|
|
crackwhore
Sep 25, 2002, 4:14 PM
Post #19 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2001
Posts: 195
|
no really...
YOU should lead it ground up ( after jerking the stud ) and pull out the bogus hanger and nut and shout down to the offenders " you guys suck at installing bolts !! "
|
|
|
|
|
its_me_drew
Sep 25, 2002, 4:21 PM
Post #20 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 13, 2002
Posts: 46
|
I think you should go home and worry about more important things like your family. If you dont already know what to do about this situation then you shouldnt do anything at all.
|
|
|
|
|
offwidth
Sep 25, 2002, 4:57 PM
Post #21 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2002
Posts: 188
|
Pull 'em.
|
|
|
|
|
madriver
Sep 25, 2002, 5:10 PM
Post #22 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2001
Posts: 8700
|
Bill
Having read several of your threads and responses I have a great deal of respect for your values and ethics regarding climbing. Not hearing the "other side"..I would still regard your actions as the more ethical and logical solution. I guess that I'm more interested in your position on this matter that my inexperience. Good luck..and I will be looking forward to your resolution.
Let us know..
MAd River
[ This Message was edited by: madriver on 2002-09-25 10:11 ]
|
|
|
|
|
manboy
Sep 25, 2002, 5:23 PM
Post #23 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 161
|
first, there are too many bolts near cracks these days! Chop em,! Second, there are too many people claiming to have any sort of ethics!chop em,! Third, those guys that placed the bolts in an area with ample protection, should be made an example of! chop em,! Fourth, chop em, tell em, The Rodman will visit them-- "of course," only to explain the situation face to face! chop em,! Answer no questions later- Rodman0Texas/Mexico/Arizona/B.C. Canada
|
|
|
|
|
jhundrup
Sep 25, 2002, 5:32 PM
Post #24 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2001
Posts: 410
|
its_me_drew: I think that you should go home. This is a place for discussion and that's what were doing.
When they put in the 2 new anchors did they remove and epoxy the old ones? I think that I would consider leaving the 2 best placements of the 4 if they left them, but I am in favor of removing at least 2 if not all of them. Chop em.
|
|
|
|
|
agrauch
Sep 25, 2002, 6:09 PM
Post #25 of 68
(7254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2001
Posts: 217
|
Leave the bolts.
Why you ask? If you pull the bolts, the same morons who originally placed them or some other asshole who doesn't know how to set his own gear will come along and place new bolts. Pulled bolts means new bolts which means too many f---ing holes in the rock.
In Fort Collins a few years ago we had a similar problem. At Duncan's Ridge and the Torture Chamber, both popular TR areas, someone added bolts to to TR's that were easy to set up with natural gear and a few long slings. The bolts we chopped, then replaced. The new hangers were stolen, then replaced and expoxied into place. Not very pretty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
