Do you mean poorly written as in poorly worded or do you disagree with them?

Belayer must belay immediately underneath the first clip until climber has clipped at least the 4th quickdraw.

-Belayers must keep minimal slack - rope must not touch ground.

-Belayer must take the leader fall without losing control and with minimal rope play.

The key word there is competent. By definition a competent 5.7 leader inside will have the right skills to lead inside. Making the assumption that that skillset only occurs at some arbitrary level is absurd and potentially dangerous for the new climber who thinks that his latest easy 10 tr makes him qualified to lead. I would venture to say that a seasoned 5.9 leader knows how to stay calm or when to back off more so than your fledgeling 5.10 leader.


They probably don't clip all 9 bolts on that 30 foot "5.10", huh?


Ain't that the truth.


Most climbers don't.


You realize you misspelled pollution in your screen name, don't you?

Well, I'm being unduly harsh, but mostly the wording.


This, I don't really agree with. I haven't seen the gym, so maybe it's an issue of space, or the bolts are fairly close or there have been problems in the past with people getting kicked in the head.


Emphasis should be on a smooth, controlled, soft, clean catch and not minimal slack or rope play. Listed as a rule in a gym, it don't think the wording is bad, but people teach 'minimal' instead of 'appropriate' to learning leaders. The reason this concerns me is I've been noticing more and more belayers that leave insufficient or even no slack in the system because they were taught that slack is bad and the shortest fall physically possible is good, but it's actually more dangerous that way.

So if the climber does a ground fall on the 2nd clip it will be right on the belayer? This really goes to show how different each gym treats the idea of "what's safe"...

The only one that's really unclear is belaying below the first draw. It's not like they take a plumb line and fail you if you're not under it. It's more that they don't want noobs taking 5 steps backwards while the climber is clipping the second or third draw.

I KNOWINGLY AND FREELY ASSUME ALL SUCH RISKS, both known and unknown, EVEN IF ARISING FROM THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES or others, and assume full responsibility for my participation

Wait, ground fall, or low fall?? I've caught some pretty low falls -- hell, falling while going to clip the second bolt -- but I've never decked anyone.

Like I said, I was being unduly harsh (and nit-picky). For example, I love that the leader has to appear safe, which, being very literal, makes it sound like they don't actually have to be safe. Obviously it's clear enough though.

I remember going through the waiver at the gym I used to work at and laughing at the wording in the waiver.


Note: that's cut and paste -- those caps aren't mine.

How can you knowingly accept unknown risks, and is it really reasonable to ask someone to accept responsibility from your own negligence? All gyms have this sort of thing in their rules and waivers when I'm sure what they really mean is, "Don't be a stupid ass!"

yeah and its pretty cool when people deck because they decided to have too much slack in the line. most gyms have a deck potential from every bolt. minimal slack is key to gym climbing

I took my neighbour's kid climbing for a birthday once and when I told her she had to sign the waiver she (being a lawyer) laughed her head off at it and basically said it was unenforceable...

Are you a troll, or just that inexperienced? There are many factors to consider while belaying, and whether you are indoors or out doesn't rate on the list. I don't know about you, but when I belay I consider distance to deck, objective hazards (ledges, lips, aretes etc.), best means to a soft catch, best point of visibility, route steepness and rope drag, potential clipping holds (and if it's a climber I'm familiar with, clipping tendencies), the climber's weight in relation to my own, the height of the climber, distance to last bolt clipped and total amount of rope paid out, climber's body position (and lower down rope interference with movements), objective hazards to me as a belayer... the list goes on.

How much slack is paid out is a result of all of those things and a uniform 'minimal' slack just isn't acceptable, not in the gym, not anywhere. How do I know? Because I've seen injuries first hand from people that belay with the rope too tight beyond all reason and context.

But no worries; it's not like I'm giving you a belay test (though you wouldn't be passing at this point).

many people dont think about deck potential. I see this shit every day, inside and out. there are smart people, you and me, and dumb people who lead in gyms.

but you are still missing my point. gym climbing is not outdoor climbing. i said minimal slack not zero slack. im saying you cant have fucking party slack in your system if there doesnt need to be. need slack? roof? yes please, over hang? sure? fucking 3 feet of party slack after the second bolt? why the fuck not, I LOVE DECKING. these factors you speak about(roof, arete) need to be learned before hand in a lead class(but is common sense for people like you, me, many others but obviously not that many others since I see shitty belaying all the time) the factors of a lip of ledge?an indoor climbing gym has holds on the OUTSIDE of the wall. you cant protect your climber from every single hold on the wall so ledges or lips are not factors inside because those factors are always there, you cant protect yourself from them.

what are the rules for a lead class? climb 5.10 solid. there you have it, the god damn rules of the game.

on a side note here is what I see most of the time: person gettin lead belayed, just clipped the first bolt 7 feet off the ground, going for the second 9 feet off the ground, belayer has a party loop big enough to jump over. happens all the time

jesus all you people here are fucking morons. it's a whole god damn different sport with different rules to the game. if you cant climb 5.10 gym then dont go there to lead.

im not even going to give you the pleasure of responding to the lead test bullshit or my ability to belay,

the following is a generalization of gym climbers: 5.8 gym climbers have sucky technique, blow at basically everything. these are new climbers I am talking about here. indoors you get young shit heads that think leading is cool and want to pick it up.a 5.10 indoor climber will have enough stamina to hold on to a hold and fuck with clipping. believe what you want but from what I have seen and experienced, most people that lead indoors suck at it unless they know how to climb at or above that 5.10 level. im not saying there are exceptions because there are. this is a general statement

I think leading anything inside is pointless. you might as well be on tr since that draw you just clipped is one foot from your waist and you are about to clip another.

let me repeat. if you don't like the rules of the game don't play that game. stop complaining about it on n00bclimbing.com, it wont change anything.

you caught me in a bad mood but Im sure you get the point.

P.S. there will always be those who climb 5.8(indoor) and lead awesome and those who climb 5.11(indoor) and belay like retards. I said earlier, there is no right answer or solution to this issue

/rant

im not even going to give you the pleasure of responding to the lead test bullshit or my ability to belay

the factors of a lip of ledge?an indoor climbing gym has holds on the OUTSIDE of the wall. you cant protect your climber from every single hold on the wall so ledges or lips are not factors inside because those factors are always there, you cant protect yourself from them

Don't miss any clips.

I'm not criticizing your ability to belay -- I've never seen you belay -- but I'm criticizing your ability to speak.


What? First, the average climbing wall in my experience, even with protruding holds is still a flatter surface to hit than many crag walls (though that's not always the case), and second, I'm talking about the lip of a roof (or any substantial transition from steep to less steep sections on a wall) or a ledge or feature that is built out to a substantial size.

You're missing my point. I've never contested the 5.10 rule at your gym, but I will mentioned, as others have, that it's not universal to gym climbing. All I'm saying is that in terms of the mechanics of leading, indoor vs. outdoor is an insufficient distinction to determine belaying practices; belaying has to vary route by route, inside or out. There are outdoor routes that are bolted and climb like gym routes (Rumney comes to mind) and gyms with routes more typical of long, steep climbs you'd find outside.

If someone comes in for a lead test at the gym and is paying out excessive slack after the first or second bolt (or anywhere on the climb) and gives you that tired, "Well I've been climbing outside for 'X' amount of time and that's how I do it there." that's total bullshit. Why, exactly would it be okay to deck someone outside, but not in? And a difference in bolt spacing is not a valid argument because bolt spacing is not consistent outside. The Red River Gorge is a classic example of this; you can't belay the same way at Military Wall as you do at Muir Valley or you'll fuck someone up; the bolt spacings are just too different.

My point is that you belay to be safe or you don't. You are adaptive to the situation when you belay or you aren't, and more importantly, it doesn't matter how you've done it the rest of your life or how you've done is elsewhere; it matters how you're doing it as the climber is falling right there in that moment.

My other point about zero slack wasn't that you or the gym you're associated with teach zero slack, but rather it's the product of climbers that place too much emphasis on short falls and minimal slack over everything else. If you're thirty-five feet off the deck and fifteen feet into a twenty foot roof, the difference between falling ten feet and five feet is negligible (unless the climber really wants to boink back up).

I have seen a severe ankle sprain (as bad as a break), a broken ankle, a cracked tooth, a damn lucky miss on a broken back and various minor injuries in and out of the gym from people that either consistently keep the rope too tight, or aren't liberal enough with slack once a route allows them to be. At the very least, they short people like mad which is more likely to cause someone to fall, especially while clipping. Is this what they were taught? Not exactly, but it is the product of what they weren't taught and the mentality of, 'That's how we do it at 'such 'n such place.'
'Well are you at that place right now?'
'No.'
'Then what the fuck to I care?'

I've also seen people fucking around with the rope inside and outside when the climbers is still fairly low and then decking said climber from fifteen feet thinking it's funny and a good bloody joke.

At one gym I saw an instructor teaching people to belay on an atc like it was a grigri. Apparently, "That's the way we do it at this gym." but that line doesn't change the fact that the device just isn't designed to brake that way.

It's not that our opinions are that far apart; it's just that indoors or out, a retard is still a retard and at the heart of it, that's the issue. It's not even the people the people that don't know any better and can be corrected on minor things, it's the people that will never apply critical thinking to their belaying. Having taught (attempted to teach) people like this to belay before, at some point you just have to draw the line and say, "I'm sorry, you aren't getting this after 'x' number of hours and I can't let you belay." or "You're not taking this seriously enough, so fuck off and don't come back (only more professional like).

...and then when you draw that line they bitch and moan, but that's just part of working in a climbing gym. Hell, that's part of working with anything client/ customer based.

and i feel sorry for anybody who can only climb 5.8 in the gym that frequents a gym. A 5.8 is like climbing a ladder. flame on brothers

I've still got a n00b question that I just can't get out of my head: why is indoor leading different from outdoor leading specifically?

Just to list off my points:
- I climb extensively both out and in
- I lead both out and in on a weekly basis
- I set routes at my local gym (some lead routes are as easy as 5.7)
- I lead belay according to my environment, regardless of whether I am out or in
- I try to use the same techniques out or in, and adjust to my environment if I need to. For example: if there is nothing above me and my leader falls, I will tend to jump a bit to give a softer catch. I do this inside and outside. For example (again): if there are obstacles that don't allow me to jump, then I give a little rope out as my leader falls to give a softer catch (inside and outside). For example (yet again): if my climber has obstacles such as a roof or corner that he could swing into, I take those obstacles into account and try to catch him in a way that would make his fall softer / safer (inside and outside).

Either way, I belay the same way. I also lead the same way when I am climbing, inside or out. I cannot imagine why anyone would separate inside and outside so much as to suggest that it would make a difference in why or at what level a person should lead at in while inside. Honestly, after years of climbing regularly inside and outside, I can't see what is so different.

PS - I'm not talking about the 5.10 rule. I talking about why inside leading is so different from outside leading.

I've still got a n00b question that I just can't get out of my head: why is indoor leading different from outdoor leading specifically?

PS - I'm not talking about the 5.10 rule. I talking about why inside leading is so different from outside leading.

Like I said, I was being unduly harsh (and nit-picky). For example, I love that the leader has to appear safe, which, being very literal, makes it sound like they don't actually have to be safe. Obviously it's clear enough though.

I remember going through the waiver at the gym I used to work at and laughing at the wording in the waiver.


Note: that's cut and paste -- those caps aren't mine.

How can you knowingly accept unknown risks, and is it really reasonable to ask someone to accept responsibility from your own negligence? All gyms have this sort of thing in their rules and waivers when I'm sure what they really mean is, "Don't be a stupid ass!"

I've still got a n00b question that I just can't get out of my head: why is indoor leading different from outdoor leading specifically?

Just to list off my points:
- I climb extensively both out and in
- I lead both out and in on a weekly basis
- I set routes at my local gym (some lead routes are as easy as 5.7)

- I lead belay according to my environment, regardless of whether I am out or in

- I try to use the same techniques out or in, and adjust to my environment if I need to.

For example: if there is nothing above me and my leader falls, I will tend to jump a bit to give a softer catch. I do this inside and outside. For example (again): if there are obstacles that don't allow me to jump, then I give a little rope out as my leader falls to give a softer catch (inside and outside). For example (yet again): if my climber has obstacles such as a roof or corner that he could swing into, I take those obstacles into account and try to catch him in a way that would make his fall softer / safer (inside and outside).

Either way, I belay the same way.

I'm failing to think of any ways that someone who learned indoors would struggle transitioning to belaying outdoors but I'm sure someone could come up with an example.