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denorza2009
Apr 1, 2009, 6:16 PM
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When I belay someone, I never take my eyes off the climber, I don't even like to talk to others. I just started doing a few lead belays and those are even more stressful, no way I'm looking at anything but the climber.
When getting belayed myself however most people don't constantly look up watching as I do. Tend to look up periodically, especially those using a grigri. I'm tall and not a slow climber, so it's not like I'm constantly paused.
It does hurt your neck to look up constantly...is it accepted practice to just glance up often watching climber, I guess keeping rope locked off when not looking?
I guess those with grigris are doing a pull slack after move look down a bit wait for next move.. pattern.. I've never used one.
I find it somewhat distressing personally, but see it everywhere. I end up constantly looking down to make sure they're watching if I'm about to try a more sketchy move.
any thoughts?
thanks
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kaizer27
Apr 1, 2009, 6:29 PM
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you need a new belay partner.
I only climb with people I trust, if my belay isn't paying attention it could be my ass.
(This post was edited by kaizer27 on Apr 1, 2009, 6:30 PM)
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angry
Apr 1, 2009, 6:30 PM
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I think you're thinking too hard.
Give a good belay. Stop freaking out. A grigri is neither the problem or the solution.
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sspssp
Apr 1, 2009, 6:34 PM
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denorza2009 wrote: I find it somewhat distressing personally, but see it everywhere. I end up constantly looking down to make sure they're watching if I'm about to try a more sketchy move. any thoughts?
I would say belaying is a bit like driving a car. Everyone should have two hands on the wheel, pay 100% attention to what is happening on the road. Never talk on the phone, eat a sandwich, change your song, talk to a passenger, fuss with the baby in the back seat, oogle the pretty chick on the sidewalk, etc.
Is that the reality? No.
Learn good habits and stick with them. On the other hand, don't be afraid to not accept belays from belayers you don't trust.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 1, 2009, 6:36 PM)
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dingus
Apr 1, 2009, 6:34 PM
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Constant? Nah. That's one of those ridiculous rules that is simply not possible in real life.
So we're left with something less than absolute 100% concentration. Its a matter of degrees and depends a lot on what the leader is doing.
One thing I have personally noted - my pet peeves are not necessarily those of my partners.
Example: a lazy belay habit in trad is to allow the leader to pull the slack through the belay device, rather than feeding. This makes my blood boil. A couple of my partners are all 'whatever.'
So I had to make a decision - kill them or deal with the issue. I split the diff and only killed one of them.
I'm certainly watching the leader closely if she's sketch, if she's cruxing, if she asks.
DMT
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climbingnoise
Apr 1, 2009, 6:35 PM
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On top rope, as long as they are taking rope i'm generally not worried about where they are looking, I know my neck hurts from looking up. lead of course totally different
speaking of being sketched out though, I have heard that some climbing gyms only allow grigris ours doesn't require this. I have only used one once and not being very mechanically inclined found it kind of strange though after I was shown the deal I was able to use it without killing my climber. hooray
Recently outside I saw someone with a grigri take their hands off and just folded them in their armpits while the climber was dangling. This I found pretty unnerving. Are grigris as foolproof as this action would lead an ignorant newcomer to believe or is there a way it can appear to be locked but not be?
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kachoong
Apr 1, 2009, 6:37 PM
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It's nice to know the belayer is watching consistently for the first couple of clips but after that the belayer really only needs to feel the rope to know what the climber is doing. A leader can be helpful at times by saying "watch me" or something like that to get the belayers attention (if they're not looking), but otherwise as long as the belayer has good technique you shouldn't worry.
I climbed with someone with 35 years experience (at the time) and he hardly ever looked up coz his neck was so bad... he just kept feeding me rope and could feel through the rope what I was doing.
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sspssp
Apr 1, 2009, 6:38 PM
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climbingnoise wrote: Are grigris as foolproof as this action would lead an ignorant newcomer to believe or is there a way it can appear to be locked but not be?
Depends a lot on the rope. Some of the ropes at my climbing gym are so fat and fuzzy that to lower a climber you have to open the lever with one hand, take your brake hand off the belay rope and use it pull [lead] rope out the top of the grigri.
A thin, slick rope makes a grigri more like an atc.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 1, 2009, 6:43 PM)
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sspssp
Apr 1, 2009, 6:42 PM
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Another tidbit, I've trained myself to yell falling when I start to fall. I try not to shriek it when in the gym, but no reason not to give your belayer a heads up. Especially when you slip without warning (as opposed to peel off while obviously fighting through a crux).
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kachoong
Apr 1, 2009, 6:45 PM
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sspssp wrote: Another tidbit, I've trained myself to yell falling when I start to fall. I try not to shriek it when in the gym, but no reason not to give your belayer a heads up. Especially when you slip without warning (as opposed to peel off while obviously fighting through a crux).
A climber shouldn't need to yell falling if the belayer is belaying properly. Besides (and I think this was covered recently), if you're climbing and need to yell falling, you're not climbing hard enough (or close enough to your limit). It's a cop out.
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kachoong
Apr 1, 2009, 6:50 PM
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dingus wrote: One thing I have personally noted - my pet peeves are not necessarily those of my partners. Example: a lazy belay habit in trad is to allow the leader to pull the slack through the belay device, rather than feeding. This makes my blood boil. A couple of my partners are all 'whatever.' So I had to make a decision - kill them or deal with the issue. I split the diff and only killed one of them. I'm certainly watching the leader closely if she's sketch, if she's cruxing, if she asks. DMT
Heh! Hope you used their device to do it.
I'm sure this is common knowledge, but a good way to avoid the short-rope debacle that many bad belayers face is to belay a couple of steps away from the wall. When they need slack, just take a couple of steps back to the wall, while feeding them and you have a good six feet or so of slack immediately.
(This post was edited by kachoong on Apr 1, 2009, 6:51 PM)
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brownie710
Apr 1, 2009, 6:56 PM
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more often than not I can't see the leader or my belayer cannot see me on multi-pitch. You can sense through the tension and movement of the rope when to give slack, when to take some in after they haul in a bunch to clip gear,etc. This does require "constant focus" but constant visual is not always possible in real world situations.
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markc
Apr 1, 2009, 7:09 PM
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There's been some good discussion so far. There's a reason why, "Watch me," is a common expression. Even when cragging, there will inevitably be times when your eyes are off your partner, and your focus is less sharp. That said, good belayers consistently catch unannounced, unexpected falls.
I'll add that there are times when it's impossible to maintain visual contact. Then it's really about anticipation and reading the rope. If that's a skill I know my partners have developed, I won't freak out if their eyes aren't glued to me. (Not that I'm consistently checking on them. If I trust you to belay, I don't feel the need to look down to check up on you.)
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seatbeltpants
Apr 1, 2009, 7:26 PM
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yeah, i was a bit stricter about this when i started climbing a year ago, but now i'm more relaxed. as long as my belayer is reasonably aware of what i'm up to and gets it together if i start to sketch, then no worries - as long as i trust him, at least. some dudes i want total attention cos they are flakey pricks.
i think the turning point for me was when i started doing trad and kept finding that the climber was often out of sight within a few minutes of starting a pitch. when that happens you have to judge what's going on through the rope, if it comes taut, you get a bit of slack, nothing moves for a long time, or the rope starts shaking... if you have to do it all by feel out on the rock sometimes, then doing it by feel indoors or on a short sport pitch isn't such a big deal any more.
full attention is good, but not always entirely necessary. as long as you trust the belayer to get it together when required then no dramas, i reckon. ymmv, though, and as i said above some belayers do require either kicking to the curb or some attention paid to them too...
steve
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dingus
Apr 1, 2009, 7:27 PM
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markc wrote: That said, good belayers consistently catch unannounced, unexpected falls.
I'd go so far as to suggest good belayers ALWAYS catch falls, announced or otherwise.
DMT
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patmay81
Apr 1, 2009, 7:28 PM
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There are a few things I'd like to point out, on nearly any lead climb (especially anything multipitch) there are a lot of factors that must divert the belayers attention. Rope management is a major one, the condition of the belay anchor for another, as well as objective hazards to the belayer such as rock/ice fall. So I do not believe a belayer needs to focus on the climber at all times, but simply needs to be aware of what the climber needs when he needs it (slack, take, clipping, etc).
This being said, I do not like to see my belayer (even on top rope) turning around to talk with passers by, or digging though his bag looking for food, or snapping a few pictures while I'm sketching out.
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patmay81
Apr 1, 2009, 7:30 PM
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dingus wrote: markc wrote: That said, good belayers consistently catch unannounced, unexpected falls. I'd go so far as to suggest good belayers ALWAYS catch falls, announced or otherwise. DMT
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markc
Apr 1, 2009, 7:58 PM
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dingus wrote: markc wrote: That said, good belayers consistently catch unannounced, unexpected falls. I'd go so far as to suggest good belayers ALWAYS catch falls, announced or otherwise. DMT
No disagreement. Always is pretty consistent...
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mheyman
Apr 1, 2009, 8:34 PM
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There is no substitute for looking up.
That said a good belayer does not need to look up to keep reasonable lengths of slack, know that they are about to catch a fall, or to perform the catch.
When belaying on “short” sport routes or in a gym or a good belay will look up often to optimize their feed and take for clips and to know when to provide soft catches rather than simply locking off.
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altelis
Apr 1, 2009, 8:38 PM
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To all you people who are requiring their belayers to always always always keep an eye on them while leading, I have a suggestion.
Stay. Away. From. Multipitch.
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Factor2
Apr 1, 2009, 9:20 PM
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altelis wrote: To all you people who are requiring their belayers to always always always keep an eye on them while leading, I have a suggestion. Stay. Away. From. Multipitch.
or long single pitch climbs. Or climbs with a large roof. Or climbs that go around the corner, etc etc
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notapplicable
Apr 1, 2009, 9:33 PM
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When a person is learning, its a good idea to watch the climber as much as possible. Once you've been belaying for awhile, it's done mostly by feel. It becomes intuitive and is perfectly safe.
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Rudmin
Apr 1, 2009, 9:35 PM
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Does anyone call "clipping" to get their belayer ready to feed slack?
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shimanilami
Apr 1, 2009, 9:36 PM
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I keep my eyes on the climber 100% of the time, unless I'm eating a sandwich, or smoking a bowl, or if the sun is in my eyes, or if I fall asleep. Other than that, I'm 100% focused.
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yokese
Apr 1, 2009, 9:38 PM
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