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redlude97
Jul 5, 2009, 9:37 AM
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So I'm beginning to compile a list of items to begin leading sport. I've search and gotten a pretty good idea of what is needed, but I just wanted to get some confirmation and also suggestions for anything else that I should pick up.
I will be climbing mostly in the NW(Exit 32/38, broughton bluff, smith) and most likely mainly single pitch routes for now. I would also like to be able to set up a toprope off of the anchor bolts
Here is a list of items I either have or plan on purchasing:
8 short quickdraws
4 120cm 10cm spectra slings(tripled to make 4 more draws)
6 biners
2 locking biners
PAS with locking biner(for cleaning and rappeling)
ATC w/locker
Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch)
Helmet
Bail biner
60m Rope
Harness
Gear sling?
Is that enough gear to get me started or do I need more quickdraws and/or sling draws? My toprope anchor would consist of 2 of the slings with nonlocking biners for the bolts and locking biners for the rope end. This seems adequate but some recommend 4 lockers for the anchor, but others still just recommend using quickdraws.
Let me know what you guys think. Thanks
(This post was edited by redlude97 on Jul 5, 2009, 9:40 AM)
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mikebee
Jul 5, 2009, 9:50 AM
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How about buying a short cordalette and making a quad for the TR anchors, rather than two of the static slings? Just as fast, self-equalizing, and more redundant.
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patto
Jul 5, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Why would you get an ATC and a Reverso?
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james481
Jul 5, 2009, 1:53 PM
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redlude97 wrote: 8 short quickdraws
8 draws is a good number to start with, but make sure to get some in varying lengths, as occasionally you'll find a bolt where you'll want one slightly longer (or shorter) to keep the carabiner from loading on the rock.
In reply to: 4 120cm 10cm spectra slings(tripled to make 4 more draws)
I doubt you'll need 4 double length slings, though it can't hurt to have them. There are better options for setting up toprope anchors.
In reply to: ATC w/locker Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch)
You won't need both.
You won't need any type of dedicated gear sling, as when climbing your draws, etc will probably be on your harness. A regular single length sling can be nice for organizing and hanging your draws in your gear closet though.
In reply to: Is that enough gear to get me started or do I need more quickdraws and/or sling draws? My toprope anchor would consist of 2 of the slings with nonlocking biners for the bolts and locking biners for the rope end. This seems adequate but some recommend 4 lockers for the anchor, but others still just recommend using quickdraws. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks
Should be plenty to get you started. For toprope anchors (at least on bolts), I find the best setup is an equalizing quad permanently tied from one of the extra long Mammut slings, with two steel locking carabiners for the power point. This setup is extremely easy to set up properly (tough for anyone to screw up), stupid strong, and the steel carabiners will keep your rope and hands from being covered in black gunk when top roping all day. Eventually you'll probably want a length of 10 or 11 mm static rope (75 feet maybe) for extending anchors over the edge of cliffs, but you can probably do without in many areas.
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winglessangel
Jul 5, 2009, 3:15 PM
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james481 wrote: redlude97 wrote: 8 short quickdraws 8 draws is a good number to start with, but make sure to get some in varying lengths, as occasionally you'll find a bolt where you'll want one slightly longer (or shorter) to keep the carabiner from loading on the rock.
Ditto, but from the rest of the post you are actually planning on having 10 draws.
That's fine two.
james481 wrote: In reply to: 4 120cm 10cm spectra slings(tripled to make 4 more draws) I doubt you'll need 4 double length slings, though it can't hurt to have them. There are better options for setting up toprope anchors.
If you use full lenght you have a 120cm draw.
If you double it you have a 60cm draw.
If you triple it you have a 40cm draw.
If you triple or double it and add to a, let's say, 15cm draw, in a 3 binner setup you have 60cm or 80cm draws (considering the binner lenght of 5cm).
So 120cm slings help you get many variantions on draw lenghts.
They are cheap so no harm getting them. I would still get the original draws in varing lenghts (12cm to 22cm) as the above poster said.
From the rest of you post I'll assume that only 2 are for draws, the other 2 are for TR. Well, for TR there are other options, but I would keep 4 slings anyway.
From the rest of you post, I assume 4 are for draws and 2 are for TR. Well, I would not buy regular binners for TR. I definatelly use, sometimes, 2 oposing regular draws for sport TR, but they are draws, I bought them for draws. And I do that when I'm not there for tr, I'm there for leading but maybe I'll do one TR to work on the moves. If I'm specificaly going TR, like taking noobs for a day of TR I'll set the TR diferently.
So, 6 binners for 3 draws or 4 binners for 2 draws, doesn't make sense to buy regular binner thinking of TR.
james481 wrote: In reply to: ATC w/locker Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch) You won't need both.
Forget the regular ATC buy either the ATC guide or the reverso 3. You only need one, and both are auto-locking in case of belaying the second from above on multi-pitch.
Most sport climbers don't live witthout and auto-block (gri-gri, sum, eddy, etc)
I used to think it was unecessary, stupid waste of money, until the day I spent 1h 30min belaying a friend working on (and falling on) every single move of a route he wanted to send. But you said "start up rack", so don't get one for now.
You will need one locking biner to go with whatever device you choose.
james481 wrote: You won't need any type of dedicated gear sling, as when climbing your draws, etc will probably be on your harness. A regular single length sling can be nice for organizing and hanging your draws in your gear closet though.
ditto
james481 wrote: In reply to: Is that enough gear to get me started or do I need more quickdraws and/or sling draws? My toprope anchor would consist of 2 of the slings with nonlocking biners for the bolts and locking biners for the rope end. This seems adequate but some recommend 4 lockers for the anchor, but others still just recommend using quickdraws. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks Should be plenty to get you started. For toprope anchors (at least on bolts), I find the best setup is an equalizing quad permanently tied from one of the extra long Mammut slings, with two steel locking carabiners for the power point. This setup is extremely easy to set up properly (tough for anyone to screw up), stupid strong, and the steel carabiners will keep your rope and hands from being covered in black gunk when top roping all day. Eventually you'll probably want a length of 10 or 11 mm static rope (75 feet maybe) for extending anchors over the edge of cliffs, but you can probably do without in many areas.
I would get 2 small locking binners, one hms locking binner and one 150cm sling.
Set up the sliding X. Or something like the above post.
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redlude97
Jul 5, 2009, 10:06 PM
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Thanks everyone for the info so far.
1. I already have the ATC. Should I still get the reverso 3 right now or should I just wait until I start multipitching? I figured it would be better to just get used to the reverso now so I'm comfortable feeding and catching on it
2. I was thinking about the different length premade quickdraws, but my climbing partner said I would be better off making adjustable quickdraws with the slings rather than buying longer dogbones, hence my reasoning for the 4 120cm slings. He said all the rest of my quickdraws(8) could be the short quickdraws with 12cm dogbones. After doing some more searching and reading, I think the 120cm slings will be too long in most situations. The shortest I could make those is 40cm when tripled. Many have recommended a pair of 60cm slings(30cm doubled and 20cm tripled) and a pair of 30cm slings(15cm doubled and 10cm tripled), plus maybe a sling 120cm just in case.
3. TR Anchor: Is a quad the best TR anchor option? When I've been out with partner and we've set up TR's for multiple people off of bolts, he's always just used a pair of slings with 4 lockers. He told me the lockers at the top aren't absolutely necessary though and the ones on the rope end were much more important. In addition, those longer slings with the lockers could be used just in case on the way up I needed additional longer quickdraws and just close the lockers after clipping into the rope. I prefer to not use a sliding x based on what I've read, and since opposing quickdraws for a TR anchor is generally accepted as safe, is having a dedicated quad anchor setup prebuilt necessary?
I'll pass on the gear sling for now and just use a normal shoulder sling for organizing gear for storage.
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bill413
Jul 5, 2009, 10:16 PM
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redlude97 wrote: Thanks everyone for the info so far. 1. I already have the ATC. Should I still get the reverso 3 right now or should I just wait until I start multipitching? I figured it would be better to just get used to the reverso now so I'm comfortable feeding and catching on it
I've led multi-pitch for years (mostly trad), and used an ATC for a lot of that time. Nothing wrong with it for any belay situation (although for belaying a hang-dogger there are better options). You have the ATC, use it...the business of the reverso autoblocking for multipitch is more of a concern to a guide/client than to equals going out together. BTW, I own the reverso (1) and the BD Guide, and do use them for most of my belaying...so I'm not talking against them from ignorance. But there is nothing magic about any belay device being for single pitch vs. multipitch.
In reply to: 3. TR Anchor: Is a quad the best TR anchor option? When I've been out with partner and we've set up TR's for multiple people off of bolts, he's always just used a pair of slings with 4 lockers. He told me the lockers at the top aren't absolutely necessary though and the ones on the rope end were much more important. In addition, those longer slings with the lockers could be used just in case on the way up I needed additional longer quickdraws and just close the lockers after clipping into the rope. I prefer to not use a sliding x based on what I've read, and since opposing quickdraws for a TR anchor is generally accepted as safe, is having a dedicated quad anchor setup prebuilt necessary?
The quad is a great anchor option for sport anchors. When pre-tied, it is quick to set up and inspires confidence. It handles anchors placed at different heights (the two bolts not in the same horizontal line) better than the double quickdraw method.
The pair of slings, one to each bold, two OPPOSED biners at the rope is quite accepted.
So, no, having the prebuilt quad is not necessary. I like it, like to use it, and recommend it if the route is not straight up (or if you're going to do several routes off of those anchors). But, I'm perfectly happy to climb on 2 good bolts, 2 slings, and four biners (arranged in a reasonable fashion).
(This post was edited by bill413 on Jul 5, 2009, 10:17 PM)
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redlude97
Jul 6, 2009, 4:22 AM
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mikebee wrote: How about buying a short cordalette and making a quad for the TR anchors, rather than two of the static slings? Just as fast, self-equalizing, and more redundant.
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james481
Jul 6, 2009, 5:48 AM
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redlude97 wrote: mikebee wrote: How about buying a short cordalette and making a quad for the TR anchors, rather than two of the static slings? Just as fast, self-equalizing, and more redundant. So I've been reading up on the quad. Can I make one out of sewn sling or do the overhand knots compromise too much strength? What length of cordallete or sling do you recommend?
The 240cm (orange) Mammut 8mm slings are excellent for this purpose, though be aware that after falling on it a few times, the overhand knots will be very difficult or impossible to untie, so it's probably best to dedicate one for this purpose. Of course, cord (8mm or larger I'd say) works just as well, but will be quite a bit bulkier to carry. Either one will have no issues with strength.
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jnm1
Jul 6, 2009, 6:46 AM
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For my PAS I like to have a second locking biner to clip into both bolts. The locking biner that comes with it is also a belay biner and since I don't use it for that I replaced it for one that was lighter. You can also get the PAS without it.
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jeepnphreak
Jul 7, 2009, 3:11 AM
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Looks like a good start. My advice is now go talk to the local climber and see what they have racked up. I do not know where or what you are climbing but in my area, 60 M rope and 8 draws are for really short climbs. we have a lot of climbs that are bolted on a 70 M with walk off, so some of the clims can be 100 + feet with 12-14 draws.
again find out what the climbing in your area had to offer and see if your 60 M will be enough
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apeman_e
Jul 7, 2009, 12:29 PM
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mikebee wrote: more redundant.
Redundanter?
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markc
Jul 7, 2009, 2:10 PM
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There's already been some solid advice in this thread. I'll try to not repeat much.
120 cm slings are much longer than you're likely to need. I carry a couple when climbing multipitch traditional routes, but never on sport. Consider 2' slings instead.
PAS - It's a personal choice, but I view the PAS as unnecessary in sport climbing. When cleaning, I'll connect with two slings or two draws.
Belay device - Up to you, but I'd stick with the ATC for now. Having a device with a high-friction mode can be nice, but other features of the Guide or Reverso aren't going to be of much immediate benefit.
Gear sling - Not necessary for sport.
With the money you save from some unnecessary purchases, you can pick up a few more draws (if necessary in your area). Have fun.
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dingus
Jul 7, 2009, 2:18 PM
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OK, based upon your list and the resulting advice here is what I suggest you DON'T NEED:
1. PAS or any other personal anchor system. If you must have something girth a standard length over the shoulder sling to your harness. Put a locker on that. PAS main utility is for mulitpitch trad and you're not doing that yet. There is no real ROI on a PAS for a sport climber.
2. Quad bullshit for a sport anchor. You are getting ridiculous advice on this score - forget about it and listen to your buddy.
3. Reverso - NOT NEEDED. This is a guide device that gets used by leaders who lack confidence in their 2nds ability to get up a given pitch.
4. Your 4 double length slings - ditch two of them in favor of two over the shoulder slings (I don't know the cm's, just 'try them on').
DMT
ps. Oh, and you don't need a gear sling either. Wait till you have a roack of cams to hang on that sling,
(This post was edited by dingus on Jul 7, 2009, 2:18 PM)
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qtm
Jul 7, 2009, 5:25 PM
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The PAS, long slings, or cordalette can be useful if you have to anchor in the belayer. You can use the other end of the rope, but it's nice to have extra slings or cordage.
For a cordalette, 7mm or 8mm, 20-24 feet. You can also use it to set TRs (when there are no bolts), tie your pack to a tree so it doesn't go tumbling down the talus field, or lasso a moose and go for the ride of your life.
You don't need it, but it's nice to have.
(This post was edited by qtm on Jul 7, 2009, 8:03 PM)
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Shintao
Jul 7, 2009, 7:45 PM
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I would say at least 10 draws, with many of them on the longer side of things. An ATC works just fine as well, although I do like the friction grooves in my Reverso, for sport you do not need to spend the extra money. Ditch the tripled slings and just get more draws. Two over the shoulder slings will be good for you to anchor to the top as well.
Check the routes of where you will be climbing to see what you need for a top anchor, but mostly just two draws works for me. Though I do through some short webbing and an 8mm cordlette in my bag.
Gear sling is NOT needed at all for sport. PAS also unnecessary, use some slings.
30 ft of webbing and a 30ft cordlette will allow you to anchor to many bolts out there for TR.
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silascl
Jul 7, 2009, 7:55 PM
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Dingus' advice is spot on.
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bigjonnyc
Jul 7, 2009, 7:57 PM
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james481 wrote: In reply to: ATC w/locker Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch) You won't need both.
If lowering off of the anchors is the custom where you'll be climbing, then you won't need both. If you plan on rappelling after cleaning, then you may want to go ahead and buy another device.
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csproul
Jul 7, 2009, 8:19 PM
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bigjonnyc wrote: james481 wrote: In reply to: ATC w/locker Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch) You won't need both. If lowering off of the anchors is the custom where you'll be climbing, then you won't need both. If you plan on rappelling after cleaning, then you may want to go ahead and buy another device.
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bigjonnyc
Jul 7, 2009, 8:27 PM
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If you've only got one, and assuming your partner doesn't have their own, then it would be nice to have two. Otherwise, when you get to the anchors and clip yourself to them, your belayer would then have to take you off belay and tie the device onto the rope so you can hull it up and use it. Now that I think about it I guess you're gonna have to hull the rope up anyway, but I prefer to just have a device with me.
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csproul
Jul 7, 2009, 8:32 PM
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Or just not climb with the cheap bastard who couldn't buy their own damn belay device!
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silascl
Jul 7, 2009, 9:22 PM
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bigjonnyc wrote: If you've only got one, and assuming your partner doesn't have their own, then it would be nice to have two. Otherwise, when you get to the anchors and clip yourself to them, your belayer would then have to take you off belay and tie the device onto the rope so you can hull it up and use it. Now that I think about it I guess you're gonna have to hull the rope up anyway, but I prefer to just have a device with me.
Here's another tip, if you don't own any quickdraws yet, don't go sport climbing with someone who doesn't own a belay device. That will end badly for all kinds of reasons.
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Alpine07
Jul 7, 2009, 10:19 PM
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dingus wrote: OK, based upon your list and the resulting advice here is what I suggest you DON'T NEED: 1. PAS or any other personal anchor system. If you must have something girth a standard length over the shoulder sling to your harness. Put a locker on that. PAS main utility is for mulitpitch trad and you're not doing that yet. There is no real ROI on a PAS for a sport climber. 2. Quad bullshit for a sport anchor. You are getting ridiculous advice on this score - forget about it and listen to your buddy. 3. Reverso - NOT NEEDED. This is a guide device that gets used by leaders who lack confidence in their 2nds ability to get up a given pitch. 4. Your 4 double length slings - ditch two of them in favor of two over the shoulder slings (I don't know the cm's, just 'try them on'). DMT ps. Oh, and you don't need a gear sling either. Wait till you have a roack of cams to hang on that sling,
This is the best post in this thread so far.
I held off on a gear sling for a long time, and just used a bit of webbing. The deciding factor on getting one was when the rack got big enough to start cutting off circulation.
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bill413
Jul 8, 2009, 1:17 AM
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bigjonnyc wrote: If you've only got one, and assuming your partner doesn't have their own, then it would be nice to have two. Otherwise, when you get to the anchors and clip yourself to them, your belayer would then have to take you off belay and tie the device onto the rope so you can hull it up and use it. Now that I think about it I guess you're gonna have to hull the rope up anyway, but I prefer to just have a device with me.
If you only have one belay device between the two of you - wtf are you doing attempting to rap?!? If you have to rap, rig a biner brake. (Oh, yeah - requires knowledge.) Planning a scenario where you need to haul a belay/rap device up to the climber is planning a scenario where there are just too many things that can go wrong.
One device, it stays with the belayer who lowers the climber. No rap.
Much better scenario - two belay/rap devices, one (belonging to and) with each climber. Not both with the belayer.
Oh, and what dingus said was spot on.
(This post was edited by bill413 on Jul 8, 2009, 1:18 AM)
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jmvc
Jul 8, 2009, 10:36 AM
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winglessangel wrote: Most sport climbers don't live witthout and auto-block (gri-gri, sum, eddy, etc) I used to think it was unecessary, stupid waste of money, until the day I spent 1h 30min belaying a friend working on (and falling on) every single move of a route he wanted to send. But you said "start up rack", so don't get one for now. You will need one locking biner to go with whatever device you choose.
Takes about 5 seconds to do with practice (and without the second back up shown in the photo, which is unnecessary unless you planning to abandon the belay IMHO), and you can release it under load in 2 seconds flat.
Having said that I usually use my faithful gri gri to belay sport.
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