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redlude97


Jul 5, 2009, 2:37 AM
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Putting together a sport "rack"
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So I'm beginning to compile a list of items to begin leading sport. I've search and gotten a pretty good idea of what is needed, but I just wanted to get some confirmation and also suggestions for anything else that I should pick up.

I will be climbing mostly in the NW(Exit 32/38, broughton bluff, smith) and most likely mainly single pitch routes for now. I would also like to be able to set up a toprope off of the anchor bolts

Here is a list of items I either have or plan on purchasing:

8 short quickdraws
4 120cm 10cm spectra slings(tripled to make 4 more draws)
6 biners
2 locking biners
PAS with locking biner(for cleaning and rappeling)
ATC w/locker
Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch)
Helmet
Bail biner
60m Rope
Harness
Gear sling?

Is that enough gear to get me started or do I need more quickdraws and/or sling draws? My toprope anchor would consist of 2 of the slings with nonlocking biners for the bolts and locking biners for the rope end. This seems adequate but some recommend 4 lockers for the anchor, but others still just recommend using quickdraws.

Let me know what you guys think. Thanks


(This post was edited by redlude97 on Jul 5, 2009, 2:40 AM)


mikebee


Jul 5, 2009, 2:50 AM
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How about buying a short cordalette and making a quad for the TR anchors, rather than two of the static slings? Just as fast, self-equalizing, and more redundant.


patto


Jul 5, 2009, 4:21 AM
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Why would you get an ATC and a Reverso?


james481


Jul 5, 2009, 6:53 AM
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redlude97 wrote:
8 short quickdraws

8 draws is a good number to start with, but make sure to get some in varying lengths, as occasionally you'll find a bolt where you'll want one slightly longer (or shorter) to keep the carabiner from loading on the rock.

In reply to:
4 120cm 10cm spectra slings(tripled to make 4 more draws)

I doubt you'll need 4 double length slings, though it can't hurt to have them. There are better options for setting up toprope anchors.

In reply to:
ATC w/locker
Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch)

You won't need both.

In reply to:
Gear sling?

You won't need any type of dedicated gear sling, as when climbing your draws, etc will probably be on your harness. A regular single length sling can be nice for organizing and hanging your draws in your gear closet though.

In reply to:
Is that enough gear to get me started or do I need more quickdraws and/or sling draws? My toprope anchor would consist of 2 of the slings with nonlocking biners for the bolts and locking biners for the rope end. This seems adequate but some recommend 4 lockers for the anchor, but others still just recommend using quickdraws.

Let me know what you guys think. Thanks

Should be plenty to get you started. For toprope anchors (at least on bolts), I find the best setup is an equalizing quad permanently tied from one of the extra long Mammut slings, with two steel locking carabiners for the power point. This setup is extremely easy to set up properly (tough for anyone to screw up), stupid strong, and the steel carabiners will keep your rope and hands from being covered in black gunk when top roping all day. Eventually you'll probably want a length of 10 or 11 mm static rope (75 feet maybe) for extending anchors over the edge of cliffs, but you can probably do without in many areas.


winglessangel


Jul 5, 2009, 8:15 AM
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james481 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
8 short quickdraws

8 draws is a good number to start with, but make sure to get some in varying lengths, as occasionally you'll find a bolt where you'll want one slightly longer (or shorter) to keep the carabiner from loading on the rock.

Ditto, but from the rest of the post you are actually planning on having 10 draws.
That's fine two.



james481 wrote:

In reply to:
4 120cm 10cm spectra slings(tripled to make 4 more draws)


I doubt you'll need 4 double length slings, though it can't hurt to have them. There are better options for setting up toprope anchors.

If you use full lenght you have a 120cm draw.
If you double it you have a 60cm draw.
If you triple it you have a 40cm draw.
If you triple or double it and add to a, let's say, 15cm draw, in a 3 binner setup you have 60cm or 80cm draws (considering the binner lenght of 5cm).

So 120cm slings help you get many variantions on draw lenghts.
They are cheap so no harm getting them. I would still get the original draws in varing lenghts (12cm to 22cm) as the above poster said.

From the rest of you post I'll assume that only 2 are for draws, the other 2 are for TR. Well, for TR there are other options, but I would keep 4 slings anyway.



In reply to:
6 biners

From the rest of you post, I assume 4 are for draws and 2 are for TR. Well, I would not buy regular binners for TR. I definatelly use, sometimes, 2 oposing regular draws for sport TR, but they are draws, I bought them for draws. And I do that when I'm not there for tr, I'm there for leading but maybe I'll do one TR to work on the moves. If I'm specificaly going TR, like taking noobs for a day of TR I'll set the TR diferently.

So, 6 binners for 3 draws or 4 binners for 2 draws, doesn't make sense to buy regular binner thinking of TR.



james481 wrote:
In reply to:
ATC w/locker
Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch)


You won't need both.

Forget the regular ATC buy either the ATC guide or the reverso 3. You only need one, and both are auto-locking in case of belaying the second from above on multi-pitch.
Most sport climbers don't live witthout and auto-block (gri-gri, sum, eddy, etc)
I used to think it was unecessary, stupid waste of money, until the day I spent 1h 30min belaying a friend working on (and falling on) every single move of a route he wanted to send. But you said "start up rack", so don't get one for now.
You will need one locking biner to go with whatever device you choose.



james481 wrote:
In reply to:
Gear sling?

You won't need any type of dedicated gear sling, as when climbing your draws, etc will probably be on your harness. A regular single length sling can be nice for organizing and hanging your draws in your gear closet though.

ditto



james481 wrote:
In reply to:
Is that enough gear to get me started or do I need more quickdraws and/or sling draws? My toprope anchor would consist of 2 of the slings with nonlocking biners for the bolts and locking biners for the rope end. This seems adequate but some recommend 4 lockers for the anchor, but others still just recommend using quickdraws.

Let me know what you guys think. Thanks

Should be plenty to get you started. For toprope anchors (at least on bolts), I find the best setup is an equalizing quad permanently tied from one of the extra long Mammut slings, with two steel locking carabiners for the power point. This setup is extremely easy to set up properly (tough for anyone to screw up), stupid strong, and the steel carabiners will keep your rope and hands from being covered in black gunk when top roping all day. Eventually you'll probably want a length of 10 or 11 mm static rope (75 feet maybe) for extending anchors over the edge of cliffs, but you can probably do without in many areas.

I would get 2 small locking binners, one hms locking binner and one 150cm sling.
Set up the sliding X. Or something like the above post.


redlude97


Jul 5, 2009, 3:06 PM
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Thanks everyone for the info so far.

1. I already have the ATC. Should I still get the reverso 3 right now or should I just wait until I start multipitching? I figured it would be better to just get used to the reverso now so I'm comfortable feeding and catching on it

2. I was thinking about the different length premade quickdraws, but my climbing partner said I would be better off making adjustable quickdraws with the slings rather than buying longer dogbones, hence my reasoning for the 4 120cm slings. He said all the rest of my quickdraws(8) could be the short quickdraws with 12cm dogbones. After doing some more searching and reading, I think the 120cm slings will be too long in most situations. The shortest I could make those is 40cm when tripled. Many have recommended a pair of 60cm slings(30cm doubled and 20cm tripled) and a pair of 30cm slings(15cm doubled and 10cm tripled), plus maybe a sling 120cm just in case.

3. TR Anchor: Is a quad the best TR anchor option? When I've been out with partner and we've set up TR's for multiple people off of bolts, he's always just used a pair of slings with 4 lockers. He told me the lockers at the top aren't absolutely necessary though and the ones on the rope end were much more important. In addition, those longer slings with the lockers could be used just in case on the way up I needed additional longer quickdraws and just close the lockers after clipping into the rope. I prefer to not use a sliding x based on what I've read, and since opposing quickdraws for a TR anchor is generally accepted as safe, is having a dedicated quad anchor setup prebuilt necessary?

I'll pass on the gear sling for now and just use a normal shoulder sling for organizing gear for storage.


bill413


Jul 5, 2009, 3:16 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
Thanks everyone for the info so far.

1. I already have the ATC. Should I still get the reverso 3 right now or should I just wait until I start multipitching? I figured it would be better to just get used to the reverso now so I'm comfortable feeding and catching on it

I've led multi-pitch for years (mostly trad), and used an ATC for a lot of that time. Nothing wrong with it for any belay situation (although for belaying a hang-dogger there are better options). You have the ATC, use it...the business of the reverso autoblocking for multipitch is more of a concern to a guide/client than to equals going out together. BTW, I own the reverso (1) and the BD Guide, and do use them for most of my belaying...so I'm not talking against them from ignorance. But there is nothing magic about any belay device being for single pitch vs. multipitch.

In reply to:
3. TR Anchor: Is a quad the best TR anchor option? When I've been out with partner and we've set up TR's for multiple people off of bolts, he's always just used a pair of slings with 4 lockers. He told me the lockers at the top aren't absolutely necessary though and the ones on the rope end were much more important. In addition, those longer slings with the lockers could be used just in case on the way up I needed additional longer quickdraws and just close the lockers after clipping into the rope. I prefer to not use a sliding x based on what I've read, and since opposing quickdraws for a TR anchor is generally accepted as safe, is having a dedicated quad anchor setup prebuilt necessary?

The quad is a great anchor option for sport anchors. When pre-tied, it is quick to set up and inspires confidence. It handles anchors placed at different heights (the two bolts not in the same horizontal line) better than the double quickdraw method.
The pair of slings, one to each bold, two OPPOSED biners at the rope is quite accepted.
So, no, having the prebuilt quad is not necessary. I like it, like to use it, and recommend it if the route is not straight up (or if you're going to do several routes off of those anchors). But, I'm perfectly happy to climb on 2 good bolts, 2 slings, and four biners (arranged in a reasonable fashion).


(This post was edited by bill413 on Jul 5, 2009, 3:17 PM)


redlude97


Jul 5, 2009, 9:22 PM
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mikebee wrote:
How about buying a short cordalette and making a quad for the TR anchors, rather than two of the static slings? Just as fast, self-equalizing, and more redundant.
So I've been reading up on the quad. Can I make one out of sewn sling or do the overhand knots compromise too much strength? What length of cordallete or sling do you recommend?


james481


Jul 5, 2009, 10:48 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
mikebee wrote:
How about buying a short cordalette and making a quad for the TR anchors, rather than two of the static slings? Just as fast, self-equalizing, and more redundant.
So I've been reading up on the quad. Can I make one out of sewn sling or do the overhand knots compromise too much strength? What length of cordallete or sling do you recommend?

The 240cm (orange) Mammut 8mm slings are excellent for this purpose, though be aware that after falling on it a few times, the overhand knots will be very difficult or impossible to untie, so it's probably best to dedicate one for this purpose. Of course, cord (8mm or larger I'd say) works just as well, but will be quite a bit bulkier to carry. Either one will have no issues with strength.


jnm1


Jul 5, 2009, 11:46 PM
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For my PAS I like to have a second locking biner to clip into both bolts. The locking biner that comes with it is also a belay biner and since I don't use it for that I replaced it for one that was lighter. You can also get the PAS without it.


jeepnphreak


Jul 6, 2009, 8:11 PM
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Looks like a good start. My advice is now go talk to the local climber and see what they have racked up. I do not know where or what you are climbing but in my area, 60 M rope and 8 draws are for really short climbs. we have a lot of climbs that are bolted on a 70 M with walk off, so some of the clims can be 100 + feet with 12-14 draws.

again find out what the climbing in your area had to offer and see if your 60 M will be enough


apeman_e


Jul 7, 2009, 5:29 AM
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mikebee wrote:
more redundant.

Redundanter?


markc


Jul 7, 2009, 7:10 AM
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There's already been some solid advice in this thread. I'll try to not repeat much.

120 cm slings are much longer than you're likely to need. I carry a couple when climbing multipitch traditional routes, but never on sport. Consider 2' slings instead.

PAS - It's a personal choice, but I view the PAS as unnecessary in sport climbing. When cleaning, I'll connect with two slings or two draws.

Belay device - Up to you, but I'd stick with the ATC for now. Having a device with a high-friction mode can be nice, but other features of the Guide or Reverso aren't going to be of much immediate benefit.

Gear sling - Not necessary for sport.

With the money you save from some unnecessary purchases, you can pick up a few more draws (if necessary in your area). Have fun.


dingus


Jul 7, 2009, 7:18 AM
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OK, based upon your list and the resulting advice here is what I suggest you DON'T NEED:

1. PAS or any other personal anchor system. If you must have something girth a standard length over the shoulder sling to your harness. Put a locker on that. PAS main utility is for mulitpitch trad and you're not doing that yet. There is no real ROI on a PAS for a sport climber.

2. Quad bullshit for a sport anchor. You are getting ridiculous advice on this score - forget about it and listen to your buddy.

3. Reverso - NOT NEEDED. This is a guide device that gets used by leaders who lack confidence in their 2nds ability to get up a given pitch.

4. Your 4 double length slings - ditch two of them in favor of two over the shoulder slings (I don't know the cm's, just 'try them on').

DMT

ps. Oh, and you don't need a gear sling either. Wait till you have a roack of cams to hang on that sling,


(This post was edited by dingus on Jul 7, 2009, 7:18 AM)


qtm


Jul 7, 2009, 10:25 AM
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The PAS, long slings, or cordalette can be useful if you have to anchor in the belayer. You can use the other end of the rope, but it's nice to have extra slings or cordage.

For a cordalette, 7mm or 8mm, 20-24 feet. You can also use it to set TRs (when there are no bolts), tie your pack to a tree so it doesn't go tumbling down the talus field, or lasso a moose and go for the ride of your life.

You don't need it, but it's nice to have.


(This post was edited by qtm on Jul 7, 2009, 1:03 PM)


Shintao


Jul 7, 2009, 12:45 PM
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I would say at least 10 draws, with many of them on the longer side of things. An ATC works just fine as well, although I do like the friction grooves in my Reverso, for sport you do not need to spend the extra money. Ditch the tripled slings and just get more draws. Two over the shoulder slings will be good for you to anchor to the top as well.

Check the routes of where you will be climbing to see what you need for a top anchor, but mostly just two draws works for me. Though I do through some short webbing and an 8mm cordlette in my bag.

Gear sling is NOT needed at all for sport. PAS also unnecessary, use some slings.

30 ft of webbing and a 30ft cordlette will allow you to anchor to many bolts out there for TR.


silascl


Jul 7, 2009, 12:55 PM
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Dingus' advice is spot on.


bigjonnyc


Jul 7, 2009, 12:57 PM
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james481 wrote:
In reply to:
ATC w/locker
Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch)

You won't need both.

If lowering off of the anchors is the custom where you'll be climbing, then you won't need both. If you plan on rappelling after cleaning, then you may want to go ahead and buy another device.


csproul


Jul 7, 2009, 1:19 PM
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bigjonnyc wrote:
james481 wrote:
In reply to:
ATC w/locker
Reverso 3? (for added friction belaying and eventually for multipitch)

You won't need both.

If lowering off of the anchors is the custom where you'll be climbing, then you won't need both. If you plan on rappelling after cleaning, then you may want to go ahead and buy another device.
Why is that exactly? Seems to me that you still only need one device to belay with or to rap with.


bigjonnyc


Jul 7, 2009, 1:27 PM
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If you've only got one, and assuming your partner doesn't have their own, then it would be nice to have two. Otherwise, when you get to the anchors and clip yourself to them, your belayer would then have to take you off belay and tie the device onto the rope so you can hull it up and use it. Now that I think about it I guess you're gonna have to hull the rope up anyway, but I prefer to just have a device with me.


csproul


Jul 7, 2009, 1:32 PM
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Or just not climb with the cheap bastard who couldn't buy their own damn belay device!Wink


silascl


Jul 7, 2009, 2:22 PM
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bigjonnyc wrote:
If you've only got one, and assuming your partner doesn't have their own, then it would be nice to have two. Otherwise, when you get to the anchors and clip yourself to them, your belayer would then have to take you off belay and tie the device onto the rope so you can hull it up and use it. Now that I think about it I guess you're gonna have to hull the rope up anyway, but I prefer to just have a device with me.

Here's another tip, if you don't own any quickdraws yet, don't go sport climbing with someone who doesn't own a belay device. That will end badly for all kinds of reasons.


Alpine07


Jul 7, 2009, 3:19 PM
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dingus wrote:
OK, based upon your list and the resulting advice here is what I suggest you DON'T NEED:

1. PAS or any other personal anchor system. If you must have something girth a standard length over the shoulder sling to your harness. Put a locker on that. PAS main utility is for mulitpitch trad and you're not doing that yet. There is no real ROI on a PAS for a sport climber.

2. Quad bullshit for a sport anchor. You are getting ridiculous advice on this score - forget about it and listen to your buddy.

3. Reverso - NOT NEEDED. This is a guide device that gets used by leaders who lack confidence in their 2nds ability to get up a given pitch.

4. Your 4 double length slings - ditch two of them in favor of two over the shoulder slings (I don't know the cm's, just 'try them on').

DMT

ps. Oh, and you don't need a gear sling either. Wait till you have a roack of cams to hang on that sling,

This is the best post in this thread so far.

I held off on a gear sling for a long time, and just used a bit of webbing. The deciding factor on getting one was when the rack got big enough to start cutting off circulation.


bill413


Jul 7, 2009, 6:17 PM
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bigjonnyc wrote:
If you've only got one, and assuming your partner doesn't have their own, then it would be nice to have two. Otherwise, when you get to the anchors and clip yourself to them, your belayer would then have to take you off belay and tie the device onto the rope so you can hull it up and use it. Now that I think about it I guess you're gonna have to hull the rope up anyway, but I prefer to just have a device with me.
Bizarre scenario.
If you only have one belay device between the two of you - wtf are you doing attempting to rap?!? If you have to rap, rig a biner brake. (Oh, yeah - requires knowledge.) Planning a scenario where you need to haul a belay/rap device up to the climber is planning a scenario where there are just too many things that can go wrong.
One device, it stays with the belayer who lowers the climber. No rap.
Much better scenario - two belay/rap devices, one (belonging to and) with each climber. Not both with the belayer.


Oh, and what dingus said was spot on.


(This post was edited by bill413 on Jul 7, 2009, 6:18 PM)


jmvc


Jul 8, 2009, 3:36 AM
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winglessangel wrote:

Most sport climbers don't live witthout and auto-block (gri-gri, sum, eddy, etc)
I used to think it was unecessary, stupid waste of money, until the day I spent 1h 30min belaying a friend working on (and falling on) every single move of a route he wanted to send. But you said "start up rack", so don't get one for now.
You will need one locking biner to go with whatever device you choose.



Takes about 5 seconds to do with practice (and without the second back up shown in the photo, which is unnecessary unless you planning to abandon the belay IMHO), and you can release it under load in 2 seconds flat.

Having said that I usually use my faithful gri gri to belay sport.


jmvc


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PS: They show it on a munter hitch but you can do it just fine ona tube style device.


rockandlice


Jul 8, 2009, 10:19 AM
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jmvc wrote:
PS: They show it on a munter hitch but you can do it just fine ona tube style device.

I think I would specify quite a bit further. Using the diagram you provided would parallel the brake and climber leads putting zero friction on a tube device. This is a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps there should be a directional keeping the brake end in a locked direction that we are missing here?


qtm


Jul 8, 2009, 10:48 AM
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For a tube device- keep it locked off with one hand. With the other, make a bight below the brake hand. Pull the bight through the locker and up and tie it as shown.

Pulling the bight through the locker keeps the rope in a locked off position through the tube device.


MS1


Jul 8, 2009, 11:17 AM
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Another way to tie-off a tube style belay: Clip the rope in to a biner on your leg loop. (If you are like me, you have a small locker there most of the time with a bit of cord on it for backing up rappels.) Once the rope is run through a locked biner below, you can tie it off above the belay device with a normal mule hitch, without compromising the tube device's friction. I find that this is faster and less finicky than holding tension while I feed a bight through the belay biner.

EDITED TO ADD: Always back up a mule with a backup hitch above the mule. This is especially necessary if you use this variation because the mule is slightly more unstable when tied this way. What I describe above is slightly faster to tie and it is easier to maintain tension on the brake strand while doing it, but it does have that downside. Use at your own risk.


(This post was edited by MS1 on Sep 2, 2009, 6:43 PM)


shimanilami


Jul 8, 2009, 11:27 AM
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Oh, bother.

Just get yourself a Gri Gri and avoid all this hassle.


IsayAutumn


Jul 8, 2009, 11:40 AM
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shimanilami wrote:
Oh, bother.

Just get yourself a Gri Gri and avoid all this hassle.

Hey, I got a badge for this in Scouts!


spoon


Jul 8, 2009, 11:44 AM
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In reply to:
go talk to the local climber and see what they have...in my area, 60 M rope and 8 draws are for really short climbs. we have a lot of climbs that are bolted on a 70 M

Although there are climbs at 32/38 and Smith that require 70m ropes, they are the exception rather than the rule. Moreover, they are almost universally 5.12 and harder. A 60m rope is the right choice.

It wouldn't hurt to get a few more draws though. There are plenty of good moderate routes at 32 that are 10 bolts long, and at least one that is 13 bolts long.

For what it's worth, I climb at these areas often and the only gear I ever bring is a 60m rope, a dozen or so quick draws, and a belay device with a locking carabiner. A sling will make cleaning some anchors a little easier, but you can definitely do without.


shimanilami


Jul 8, 2009, 11:57 AM
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IsayAutumn wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
Oh, bother.

Just get yourself a Gri Gri and avoid all this hassle.

Hey, I got a badge for this in Scouts!

Don't get me wrong. A munter-mule (or ATC-mule) is an extremely useful tool for rescue, hauling, and other load intensive situations. But for sport climbing?!? Hell no. And for a noob? I'd rather take my chances with a Gri Gri, thank you.


jmvc


Jul 9, 2009, 9:58 AM
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rockandlice wrote:
jmvc wrote:
PS: They show it on a munter hitch but you can do it just fine ona tube style device.

I think I would specify quite a bit further. Using the diagram you provided would parallel the brake and climber leads putting zero friction on a tube device. This is a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps there should be a directional keeping the brake end in a locked direction that we are missing here?

My mistake. It is as gtm describes. I just searched for the mule and didn't look to closely at the picture. A good example on why not to trust random info on the internet!

Hoping nobody has decked as a result of my advice Wink


jmvc


Jul 9, 2009, 10:02 AM
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shimanilami wrote:
But for sport climbing?!? Hell no.

Why on earth not?

Like I say, i generally use a grigri, just for ease of boiking and suchlike, but when belaying somebody with an ATC who is projecting and tells me they need a rest, I always throw one in. Why sit there hanging on to the rope when it takes 5 seconds and is perfectly safe?


shimanilami


Jul 9, 2009, 10:49 AM
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jmvc wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
But for sport climbing?!? Hell no.

Why on earth not?

Like I say, i generally use a grigri, just for ease of boiking and suchlike, but when belaying somebody with an ATC who is projecting and tells me they need a rest, I always throw one in. Why sit there hanging on to the rope when it takes 5 seconds and is perfectly safe?

You are not wrong, but in my world, "sport climbing" = Gri Gri. If I showed up at a sport crag and only had my ATC, I'd ask around to borrow a Gri Gri until I found one.

And if I couldn't find one, I'd tell my partner he's a jackass for not bringing his or reminding me to bring mine. And, consequently, for that day, I'd only give him one fall per burn before lowering him to the dirt.

So, at least for me, "Hell no" applies.


jbf101


Sep 1, 2009, 8:03 PM
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I too am looking to put together a sport "rack"

The draws i was looking at are the BD-Livewire (10 CM) and BD-Quickwire (12/18 cm).

I was thinking of getting 5 10cm, 3 12cm, and 2 18cm... Should cover all my bases as far as Draws and lengths are concerned, both had good reviews and money is no object (Go go gadget deployment money) However some advice from people who know what they are talking about is always welcome.

A Petzl Grigri is also on the list of things to buy when i return home...


seatbeltpants


Sep 1, 2009, 9:39 PM
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jbf101 wrote:
I too am looking to put together a sport "rack"

The draws i was looking at are the BD-Livewire (10 CM) and BD-Quickwire (12/18 cm).

I was thinking of getting 5 10cm, 3 12cm, and 2 18cm... Should cover all my bases as far as Draws and lengths are concerned, both had good reviews and money is no object (Go go gadget deployment money) However some advice from people who know what they are talking about is always welcome.

A Petzl Grigri is also on the list of things to buy when i return home...

i can't comment on the biners as i just use whatever the hell i picked up at the time, but as far as lengths go i'd personally go for 5 of the 18s and 5 of the 12s. 10 seems damn short to me, and i'm not sure there's any reason to get both 10 and 12 (pretty similar). ymmv.

steve


jbf101


Sep 1, 2009, 10:02 PM
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A very valid point, and thank you.


USnavy


Sep 2, 2009, 1:28 AM
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jbf101 wrote:
I too am looking to put together a sport "rack"

The draws i was looking at are the BD-Livewire (10 CM) and BD-Quickwire (12/18 cm).

I was thinking of getting 5 10cm, 3 12cm, and 2 18cm... Should cover all my bases as far as Draws and lengths are concerned, both had good reviews and money is no object (Go go gadget deployment money) However some advice from people who know what they are talking about is always welcome.

A Petzl Grigri is also on the list of things to buy when i return home...

If you plan to lead a lot I would get some Petzl Spirits. They are among the best. I could have whatever draw I want and I choose Spirits to climb here in Hawaii. The longest route in Hawaii is 12 bolts. I would recommend 8 of the shortest lengths, 2 moderate length draws and 2 longer draws. You could get by with more longer draws instead of shorter ones if you want to cut down on drag a bit but make sure you have at least 4 shorter draws for the first few bolts. You donít want to be taking long falls close to the ground. If you donít want to spend quite that much money, the Trango Basic draws are rather nice as well. They clip very easily and they are inexpensive. The only drawback is the measly 7 kN open gate rating on the older style and 8 kN on the newer style.


jbf101


Sep 2, 2009, 2:49 AM
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Thanks

I was looking at the Team Climb Aloha site to actually look at routes and whatnot.

I figure i need to actually go into a rock climbing shop and actually play around with some draws/biners before making any final decisions.


MS1


Sep 2, 2009, 8:13 AM
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Go with livewires and then some of the longer spirits (or maybe just the long spirit dogbones with the livewire biner set). The floppy, skinny sling and the non-keylock bolt biner on the quickwire will be annoying, I guarantee it.


dagibbs


Sep 2, 2009, 8:17 AM
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james481 wrote:
The 240cm (orange) Mammut 8mm slings are excellent for this purpose, though be aware that after falling on it a few times, the overhand knots will be very difficult or impossible to untie,.

Put a biner through the overhand knot. Gives you a great handle for untieing them.


Partner cracklover


Sep 2, 2009, 9:11 AM
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MS1 wrote:
Another way to tie-off a tube style belay: Clip the rope in to a biner on your leg loop. (If you are like me, you have a small locker there most of the time with a bit of cord on it for backing up rappels.) Once the rope is run through a locked biner below, you can tie it off above the biner with a normal mule hitch, without compromising the tube device's friction. I find that this is faster and less finicky than holding tension while I feed a bight through the belay biner.

Doesn't anyone else see the problem here? This is why this site is so useless for advice. There's good advice and terrible advice in equal parts, and unless JT is bored enough to fire up the flame canon, the terrible advice seems to get an equal footing.

GO


brotherbbock


Sep 2, 2009, 9:33 AM
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"Sport Rack".............hah.


MS1


Sep 2, 2009, 9:36 AM
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What exactly has you so concerned? I've done this many times without a problem. (Note: I mistyped when I said tie it off above the "biner" --- I meant to type "tie it off above the belay device," which is what I do.)


Partner cracklover


Sep 2, 2009, 10:21 AM
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MS1 wrote:
What exactly has you so concerned? I've done this many times without a problem. (Note: I mistyped when I said tie it off above the "biner" --- I meant to type "tie it off above the belay device," which is what I do.)

You're adding complication to a simple method. And what do you mean when you say tie it off above the belay device with a regular mule? How and why would you tie a mule knot around a device, when the rope is redirected from another biner on a leg loop?

GO


MS1


Sep 2, 2009, 10:27 AM
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It's not really an added complication; the rope is passing through a locking biner in either case, my method just uses a different one (which I already have on my harness most of the time). And because you have extra rope length to work with, it is much easier to feed the bight through the other biner while keeping tension on the brake side.

Nor is there anything complicated about tying a mule knot above the belay device with the rope running from your leg loop rather than from the belay biner. It's the same knot, in the same place, just with a longer run of rope to the redirect biner in my case.

Seems like maybe you are taking the position that something is bad just because it is novel, rather than thinking through "Would this actually work?"


Partner cracklover


Sep 2, 2009, 10:52 AM
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MS1 wrote:
Seems like maybe you are taking the position that something is bad just because it is novel, rather than thinking through "Would this actually work?"

No, I'm not. I've thought about it quite enough to realize that 1 - what you describe is a clusterfuck when a simple mule will and does work, and 2 - you're probably tying something screwy in place of your mule knot.

Mule knots need a biner to go through, and work in opposition to the force. You have no biner "above your belay device", nor is tying a mule there in opposition to the force, since the force, in your scenario, is now coming from your leg loop.

I still have no idea what you're doing in place of a regular mule knot. Who knows, maybe it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. If you think so, I'll let you prove that.

GO


MS1


Sep 2, 2009, 12:00 PM
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It is tied exactly like a mule knot, with the biner being farther below the knot. The oppositional force comes from the leg-loop-biner, and it is more than adequate to keep the knot in place.

As for "proving" to you that it works---whatever. I have used it many times and it has never slipped or caused any sort of problem. If you don't care to try it that is fine by me.


Partner cracklover


Sep 2, 2009, 12:52 PM
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MS1 wrote:
It is tied exactly like a mule knot, with the biner being farther below the knot. The oppositional force comes from the leg-loop-biner, and it is more than adequate to keep the knot in place.

A mule knot, in order to be a mule knot, is tied by passing a bight of rope through a biner, giving it a half twist, and then, around the spine of the biner, passing another bight through that first bight. Around which biner is the mule knot tied? Or are you not, in fact, tying a mule at all?

In reply to:
As for "proving" to you that it works---whatever. I have used it many times and it has never slipped or caused any sort of problem. If you don't care to try it that is fine by me.

You don't have to prove anything to me. I already know how to tie a mule knot, and have no problem doing so under load. But you claimed that yours is a better way. So far, you've been unable to even explain what the hell you're doing, much less prove that it's superior to the tried-and-true method.

But all this is just frosting on the shit-cake. Even if your lousy idea was really a better mule than the real mule, rather than the ticking time bomb it probably is in reality, it would still be lousy advice for the OP. You think this is going to work when the OP's partner wants to boink up the rope?

Not so much.

GO


MS1


Sep 2, 2009, 1:08 PM
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http://books.google.com/...%20hitch&f=false

Tied around the rope, not around the spine of the biner. Mine look just like the one in the link, but they go through the leg loop biner, not the belay biner. Since you tie yours around the belay biner, I can see why you were confused. But tying the mule on the rope is taught in many climbing texts, so it's hardly some freak thing to do.

And I think the OP will probably be happier using a gri-gri than tying off his hangdogging friends. But maybe he is too cheap to buy one this early in his climbing life, or maybe he will sometimes forget his grigri but have a tube-style device. In that case my method works and I find it a little faster and safer to tie than the more standard way, because you don't have to pinch the rope against the ATC in that awkward way while feeding the bight; you can hold it solidly with one hand while feeding the bight with the other.


(This post was edited by MS1 on Sep 2, 2009, 1:13 PM)


Partner cracklover


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In fig 2-16 they do not have a bight passed through the biner, but a single strand. To do that, you have to have a loose end. I dunno what they're doing, they may call it a Mule, but it's not feasible at the crag. I suspect you're not doing what they're doing in that picture, because you need to be right at the end of the rope for that to work.

Anyway, I think what you're doing is the version of the Mule typically used in conjunction with a munter hitch.

In this series, the mule is the last image on the top row through the third image on the second row:



If so, you'd damn well better tie that off, because it's not safe the way you're doing it without a tie-off. In the standard usage, in conjunction with the munter, it comes right out of the biner and up around the rope, and this section is taut. This is safe.

But the way you're doing it is not, because of the loop you've introduced. If anything were to snag on that loop of rope you've created, your mule gets pulled sideways, and can come right out.

If you pull it sideways, you are now pulling on a half a sheep shank. A shank is *not* a life-saving knot. It is a temporary means to shorten a rope, and can pull out under heavy load, or even fall apart when the load disappears! This is a sheep shank:



Again, in the standard use of this type of mule, there is no loop to snag, as it is coming straight out of the biner. The way you are doing it is only as good as the overhand backup.

GO


MS1


Sep 2, 2009, 4:19 PM
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You are wrong. You version of the mule and mine have exactly the same weakness --- if you pull on the slack end of the rope they come loose, absent a backup knot (which you should always, always tie). You think the extra loop changes this but it does knot; pulling on the loop running through the leg loop does not loosen the mule hitch. Only tugging on the slack end of the rope would do that. And a mule on a biner (or pulled through the belay biner and tied up on the line like a munter mule) still has a slack end that can untie a mule if you pull on it unless you've tied the backup hitch.

I respect your climbing experience, and I realize that part of the problem may be that my set up is hard to visualize if you haven't done it personally. But the extra loop changes nothing about the security of the mule.


Partner cracklover


Sep 2, 2009, 6:04 PM
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MS1 wrote:
You are wrong. You version of the mule and mine have exactly the same weakness --- if you pull on the slack end of the rope they come loose, absent a backup knot (which you should always, always tie). You think the extra loop changes this but it does knot; pulling on the loop running through the leg loop does not loosen the mule hitch. Only tugging on the slack end of the rope would do that. And a mule on a biner (or pulled through the belay biner and tied up on the line like a munter mule) still has a slack end that can untie a mule if you pull on it unless you've tied the backup hitch.

I respect your climbing experience, and I realize that part of the problem may be that my set up is hard to visualize if you haven't done it personally. But the extra loop changes nothing about the security of the mule.

If you are tying the munter version of the mule (as pictured in my last post) then I have no difficulty visualizing what you're doing.

And no, obviously I'm not talking about pulling the slack end. Pulling the slack end undoes the slip knot in any mule. That's not a "weakness", it's the whole point of the mule - it's what allows it to release under load!

I'm talking about the loop that goes down to the biner on your leg loop and back up. Pull on that sideways, and all you have is a half hitch holding the climber.

Tying this type of mule coming straight out of a munter, it doesn't have the failure mode you've introduced, because the mule is pulled down into the biner.

GO


(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 19, 2010, 9:10 AM)


MS1


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Re: [cracklover] Putting together a sport "rack" [In reply to]
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Oh, I see what you are saying. Yes, if you fail to back this up with the extra half-hitch, it is unstable. But once backed up, it can't untwist in the way you are worried about. When I've used it I've always backed it up sufficiently that I do not think that what you are pointing out is a real-world safety concern. After all, it's not like I'm using this to tie someone off while I go out for a burger; I'm standing right there (usually with a hand lightly holding the brake strand) so I can see that the backup isn't working loose.

But for the record: If you are a retard and don't back up your mule knot with a half hitch (or if you tie a half hitch so short it can work loose), then do not use my variation.

And for the sake of conciliation, I will even note that this was maybe unwise to describe to people starting out in sport climbing, who might tie a crappy short backup knot, or even forget to tie one. Now, they shouldn't be relying on my crappy post for their safety instruction, but still, why take the risk.


MS1


Sep 2, 2009, 6:46 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Putting together a sport "rack" [In reply to]
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I edited the original posting to make this limitation clear.


Partner cracklover


Sep 2, 2009, 8:08 PM
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Re: [MS1] Putting together a sport "rack" [In reply to]
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Cool.

GO


daggerx


Feb 18, 2010, 2:04 PM
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Re: [jmvc] Putting together a sport "rack" [In reply to]
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dam when I first started about 8 years ago, I had a 40 meter rope, 20 feet of cord, harness, atc, maby 2 cara. and 6 draws,


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Sport Climbing

 


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