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viciado
Aug 21, 2009, 11:26 AM
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I disagree with the gloves being the issue. Bottom line here is inexperience. What can be learned? Rope management and control. There are already plenty of posts on this site regarding that issue and I am not sure that one more will help people learn better control technique. I am not convinced that use of gloves is the central issue in this incident.
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socalclimber
Aug 21, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #27 of 52
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shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong.
There is so much wrong with this statement I am not even sure it's worth addressing.
I think it's fairly simple:
Person A wasn't on the ball and dropped person B. Person B was injured.
I am having a difficult time understanding why this needs any "analysis". Nor do I understand why the sex of the partner (from the article) has any bearing on the outcome.
Gloves.... Whatever....
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dingus
Aug 21, 2009, 8:11 PM
Post #28 of 52
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Hawaiian Welder's Gloves, just the ticket.
DMT
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sgreer
Aug 21, 2009, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: top roping is dangerous.
And the pictures always suck.
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Factor2
Aug 21, 2009, 10:40 PM
Post #30 of 52
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socalclimber wrote: shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong. There is so much wrong with this statement I am not even sure it's worth addressing. I think it's fairly simple: Person A wasn't on the ball and dropped person B. Person B was injured. I am having a difficult time understanding why this needs any "analysis". Nor do I understand why the sex of the partner (from the article) has any bearing on the outcome. Gloves.... Whatever....
I don't think you two are really disagreeing with each other....
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socalclimber
Aug 21, 2009, 10:56 PM
Post #31 of 52
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Factor2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong. There is so much wrong with this statement I am not even sure it's worth addressing. I think it's fairly simple: Person A wasn't on the ball and dropped person B. Person B was injured. I am having a difficult time understanding why this needs any "analysis". Nor do I understand why the sex of the partner (from the article) has any bearing on the outcome. Gloves.... Whatever.... I don't think you two are really disagreeing with each other....
My point is simple, gloves will not prevent this type of accident.
As far as the next point that it does not take much to lock off an ATC or other form belay device, I agree.
Gloves have nothing to do with this.
If you even remotely think that gloves will make you a better belayer, or could have prevented this accident, then you really should consider Knitting as a better form of outdoor activity.
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Factor2
Aug 21, 2009, 11:01 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Factor2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong. There is so much wrong with this statement I am not even sure it's worth addressing. I think it's fairly simple: Person A wasn't on the ball and dropped person B. Person B was injured. I am having a difficult time understanding why this needs any "analysis". Nor do I understand why the sex of the partner (from the article) has any bearing on the outcome. Gloves.... Whatever.... I don't think you two are really disagreeing with each other.... My point is simple, gloves will not prevent this type of accident. As far as the next point that it does not take much to lock off an ATC or other form belay device, I agree. Gloves have nothing to do with this. If you even remotely think that gloves will make you a better belayer, or could have prevented this accident, then you really should consider Knitting as a better form of outdoor activity.
completely agree. Just not sure why you said that there was so much wrong with his statement, he was saying the same thing has you 
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j_ung
Aug 21, 2009, 11:22 PM
Post #33 of 52
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Factor2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: Factor2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong. There is so much wrong with this statement I am not even sure it's worth addressing. I think it's fairly simple: Person A wasn't on the ball and dropped person B. Person B was injured. I am having a difficult time understanding why this needs any "analysis". Nor do I understand why the sex of the partner (from the article) has any bearing on the outcome. Gloves.... Whatever.... I don't think you two are really disagreeing with each other.... My point is simple, gloves will not prevent this type of accident. As far as the next point that it does not take much to lock off an ATC or other form belay device, I agree. Gloves have nothing to do with this. If you even remotely think that gloves will make you a better belayer, or could have prevented this accident, then you really should consider Knitting as a better form of outdoor activity. completely agree. Just not sure why you said that there was so much wrong with his statement, he was saying the same thing has you
My analysis of your analysis of socalclimber's analysis of shimanilami's analysis is the same. 
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boymeetsrock
Aug 22, 2009, 2:24 AM
Post #34 of 52
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j_ung wrote: Factor2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: Factor2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong. There is so much wrong with this statement I am not even sure it's worth addressing. I think it's fairly simple: Person A wasn't on the ball and dropped person B. Person B was injured. I am having a difficult time understanding why this needs any "analysis". Nor do I understand why the sex of the partner (from the article) has any bearing on the outcome. Gloves.... Whatever.... I don't think you two are really disagreeing with each other.... My point is simple, gloves will not prevent this type of accident. As far as the next point that it does not take much to lock off an ATC or other form belay device, I agree. Gloves have nothing to do with this. If you even remotely think that gloves will make you a better belayer, or could have prevented this accident, then you really should consider Knitting as a better form of outdoor activity. completely agree. Just not sure why you said that there was so much wrong with his statement, he was saying the same thing has you My analysis of your analysis of socalclimber's analysis of shimanilami's analysis is the same.
I concur
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socalclimber
Aug 22, 2009, 3:11 AM
Post #35 of 52
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j_ung wrote: Factor2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: Factor2 wrote: socalclimber wrote: shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong. There is so much wrong with this statement I am not even sure it's worth addressing. I think it's fairly simple: Person A wasn't on the ball and dropped person B. Person B was injured. I am having a difficult time understanding why this needs any "analysis". Nor do I understand why the sex of the partner (from the article) has any bearing on the outcome. Gloves.... Whatever.... I don't think you two are really disagreeing with each other.... My point is simple, gloves will not prevent this type of accident. As far as the next point that it does not take much to lock off an ATC or other form belay device, I agree. Gloves have nothing to do with this. If you even remotely think that gloves will make you a better belayer, or could have prevented this accident, then you really should consider Knitting as a better form of outdoor activity. completely agree. Just not sure why you said that there was so much wrong with his statement, he was saying the same thing has you My analysis of your analysis of socalclimber's analysis of shimanilami's analysis is the same.
You are wise but evil
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rgold
Aug 22, 2009, 6:03 AM
Post #36 of 52
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Well.
An ATC-type belay device is, roughly speaking, a force multiplier, multiplying your grip strength by about 7.5. Grip strength varies enormously. A study for Rigging for Rescue by K. and K. Mauthner, describes variation from 46 N to 425 N with an average of 209 N. It takes about 69 N grip strength to hold an 80 kg climber in place, which means there are people, with grip strength considerably below average, who are not strong enough to hold an 80 kg climber in place, much less lower them. (The grip strength needed to hold a top-rope fall with no slippage is about 150 N, and a UIAA fall requires and above-average 250 N grip strength to hold without slipping.)
These stats, from a Tom Moyer presentation (I can't find the reference right now), suggest that a beginner with below-average grip strength might have trouble holding a top rope fall and might even have trouble lowering someone with an ATC. These cases, perhaps rare, would not be a failure of proper belay technique and also would not be cured by gloves. People who, by virtue of being beginners, might not have been sufficiently tested in the field might be unaware of their liability.
The distribution of women's grip strengths is somewhat lower than men's, a fact that has little effect on climbing performance, since women's body weight distribution is also lower than men's. An ATC can only multiply the grip strength you have, so women might be at a disadvantage belaying in some circumstances.
Gloves should not, in principle, be necessary for top-rope belaying. Lead belaying is another issue altogether, as the bloody hands and rope described upthread attest. Off-the-scale grip strength is needed to arrest a UIAA fall without slippage, and there is little doubt that almost no one is up to that task. Experiments with real belayers by the Italian Alpine Club found rope slippage occuring for low system-friction falls at fall factors considerably below the extreme UIAA values.
Most climbers have no idea what it is like to hold a high fall-factor fall with little friction in the system, and are unrealistically sanguine about rope slippage and the potential severity and consequences of the resulting burns. It may never happen to you; such falls turn out to be pretty rare. There is, on the other hand,no reporting mechanism that captures the frequency of such burns and so no way to know how rare they really are. If the leader is successfully caught and uninjured, we are unlikely to ever hear about what happened to the belayer.
(This post was edited by rgold on Aug 22, 2009, 5:46 PM)
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clmbr
Aug 22, 2009, 8:55 AM
Post #37 of 52
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Wishing the climber injured a speedy recovery and hopefully the belayer has learnt from the incident.
Both novice top ropers, a)how'd they get the anchors and top rope set up by themselves?
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Peasley1
Aug 22, 2009, 1:03 PM
Post #38 of 52
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shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong.
Completely agree but in the article it did say she was lowering her partner. She was probably just letting it slide through her hands, got burned and let go of the rope probably out of surprise. Her partner is now falling, and being a novice got the deer in the headlights syndrome and froze causing her partner to deck (this is how I'm assuming it went down).....so use gloves for belaying.
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iching
Aug 22, 2009, 4:03 PM
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i_h8_choss wrote: Yeah I could imagine that a female novice would have weak hands. Some gloves and a grigri could have helped here too.
Personally I don't wear gloves when climbing for the same reason I don't wear them when I'm on a date; I feel better without them. The solution is learning good technique. Gloves will only mask poor belay technique. With a bad belay once the rope slips your screwed gloves or no gloves. It's all about learning not to release your brake hand and returning to the locked off position as quickly as possible.
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clausti
Aug 22, 2009, 4:18 PM
Post #40 of 52
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Peasley1 wrote: shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong. Completely agree but in the article it did say she was lowering her partner. She was probably just letting it slide through her hands, got burned and let go of the rope probably out of surprise. Her partner is now falling, and being a novice got the deer in the headlights syndrome and froze causing her partner to deck (this is how I'm assuming it went down).....so use gloves for belaying.
if the rope is moving swiftly enough to burn your hands while you are lowering someone, then you are already doing something wrong.
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Peasley1
Aug 22, 2009, 4:30 PM
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clausti wrote: Peasley1 wrote: shimanilami wrote: I am all for gloves and usually use them myself, but I don't think that gloves (or lack thereof) are the issue here. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to lock off an ATC. One only needs position the brake hand correctly. If you have to squeeze the rope that hard, then you're doing it wrong. Completely agree but in the article it did say she was lowering her partner. She was probably just letting it slide through her hands, got burned and let go of the rope probably out of surprise. Her partner is now falling, and being a novice got the deer in the headlights syndrome and froze causing her partner to deck (this is how I'm assuming it went down).....so use gloves for belaying. if the rope is moving swiftly enough to burn your hands while you are lowering someone, then you are already doing something wrong.
Again, I agree, but if she had been wearing gloves it would have decreased the chance of the belayer getting rope burn.
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rgold
Aug 22, 2009, 5:42 PM
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iching wrote: Personally I don't wear gloves when climbing for the same reason I don't wear them when I'm on a date; I feel better without them.
The girl you get pregnant may be less enthusiastic about your heightened sensation levels, just as the leader you can't hold may not share your joy of sensual communion with sheath fibers.
In reply to: The solution is learning good technique. Gloves will only mask poor belay technique. With a bad belay once the rope slips your screwed gloves or no gloves.
No amount of technique will keep the rope from slipping in a high fall-factor fall with low system friction. A person of average grip strength trying to hold a standard UIAA fall is going to have 3m of rope slip through their hands---that's going to make a very nasty mess without gloves. People who have never experienced this situation mistake their good fortune for good technique. And the idea that you are screwed gloves or no gloves is just plain false.
This isn't entirely about dropping leaders though. Although there is a powerful automatic reflex to let go of something that is burning you, quite a few (but not all) belayers manage to hang on. But the result can be severe burns for the belayer, burns that would have been avoided with gloves.
And none of this addresses the fact that rope slippage absorbs fall energy and so reduces peak loads on gear. A belayer who manages to lock off a leader fall on small or manky gear will rarely be blamed for the gear pulling, but a more skilled belayer who can manage a controlled slip (we're talking less than a second here, and of course gloves are mandatory) can save the day. In this case, which belayer is the one with "good technique?"
(This post was edited by rgold on Aug 22, 2009, 8:06 PM)
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JAB
Aug 24, 2009, 1:33 PM
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iching wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: Yeah I could imagine that a female novice would have weak hands. Some gloves and a grigri could have helped here too. Personally I don't wear gloves when climbing for the same reason I don't wear them when I'm on a date; I feel better without them. The solution is learning good technique. Gloves will only mask poor belay technique. With a bad belay once the rope slips your screwed gloves or no gloves. It's all about learning not to release your brake hand and returning to the locked off position as quickly as possible.
This sounds similar to the logic of some free soloers: "In fact I am more secure when soloing, because when climbing with a rope I climb more sloppily" 
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dingus
Aug 26, 2009, 4:24 PM
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iching wrote: Gloves will only mask poor belay technique.
Ah! The ever popular one size fits all answer!
Whatever.
DMT
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angry
Sep 13, 2009, 1:09 PM
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Did anyone else notice the bolts on the photo in the article are less than 2 feet apart? And it also looks to be a crack?
I bet someone has had that stock photo for years waiting to whip it out for no good reason.
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billcoe_
Sep 13, 2009, 3:08 PM
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For posterity, full article requoted. BTW, don't climb with N00bs is the correct answer. Teaching in my mind is different than climbing, they are different and separate mindsets. DON'T CLIMB WITH N00BS, may not necessarily mean "don't train N00bs how to belay correctly and practice practice practice and REINFORCE THE IDEA THAT HOW GOOD YOU CLIMB ON THE ROCK DOESN'T MEAN SHIT IF YOUR BELAYS SUCK!!! So practice practice practice those belaying skills.
" At 6:40 p.m. this evening, Wednesday, Aug. 19, 2009, Boulder County Emergency Services received a report of a fallen climber in the Eagle Rock section of Boulder Canyon about six miles up Boulder Canyon from Boulder, Colorado.
According to Sgt. Vinnie Montez both the belayer and the climber were novice climbers and female. While lowering her partner the belayer sustained some rope burns and let go of the rope. The 29-year old climber fell about 40 feet and then rolled another 20 feet.
The climber sustained a leg injury and minor head lacerations. The climber was transported to Boulder Community Hospital and she's currently under evaluation.
Boulder County Emergency Services, Rocky Mountain Rescue Group, Boulder County Deputies and Sugarloaf Fire Protection District responded to the emergency. A technical evacuation was performed. This means rescue personnel are sent onto the scence and use rigging systems.The climber was conscious at time of rescue.
An official press release will be released either later tonight or tomorrow."
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iluvtoplayoutside
Nov 12, 2009, 8:49 PM
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Well Said. And if you do, make sure that you don't get into anything that cannot be managed. If I choose to let someone hold the other end of the rope that's my responsiblity.
billcoe_ wrote: For posterity, full article requoted. BTW, don't climb with N00bs is the correct answer. Teaching in my mind is different than climbing, they are different and separate mindsets. DON'T CLIMB WITH N00BS, may not necessarily mean "don't train N00bs how to belay correctly and practice practice practice and REINFORCE THE IDEA THAT HOW GOOD YOU CLIMB ON THE ROCK DOESN'T MEAN SHIT IF YOUR BELAYS SUCK!!! So practice practice practice those belaying skills. "
As a petite small woman, I have caught w/no gloves and an ATC many lead falls and found that since I always have a fairly strong grip on the rope and watch my leader, I've NEVER had any ropeburn. I've gotten picked up, swung into cacti, had a climber fall from a sketchy part while clipping and land on top of me and never let go of the rope.
I think that there may be more females represented because people are looking for belayers at any cost and not summing up the risk they are taking if they are taking a gym climber out for the first time....just my opinion.
Personal Responsiblity is what it comes down to.
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dingus
Nov 12, 2009, 8:55 PM
Post #48 of 52
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iluvtoplayoutside wrote: I think that there may be more females represented because people are looking for belayers at any cost and not summing up the risk they are taking if they are taking a gym climber out for the first time....just my opinion.
Its not belaying such folk are really after ... just my opinion hehe.
DMT
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ClimbClimb
Nov 12, 2009, 9:29 PM
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iluvtoplayoutside wrote: As a petite small woman, I have caught w/no gloves and an ATC many lead falls and found that since I always have a fairly strong grip on the rope and watch my leader, I've NEVER had any ropeburn. I've gotten picked up, swung into cacti, had a climber fall from a sketchy part while clipping and land on top of me and never let go of the rope.
I am glad to hear that -- and I don't think this has anything to do with petite small or female.. The reality is that it is possible to have a mishap belaying (or rapping... or other relatively simple things) despite years of successful experience. Easy to say "it can't happen to me", but the reality is that, sadly, it can.
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iluvtoplayoutside
Nov 12, 2009, 9:38 PM
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That's why these folks need to climb with their big heads
dingus wrote: iluvtoplayoutside wrote: I think that there may be more females represented because people are looking for belayers at any cost and not summing up the risk they are taking if they are taking a gym climber out for the first time....just my opinion. Its not belaying such folk are really after ... just my opinion hehe. DMT |
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