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CrazyPetie
Dec 8, 2009, 6:55 AM
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I was reading this article today:http://www.climbing.com/...ue_-_heels_of_steel/
And this picture struck me odd. 
Wouldn't you want your center of gravity over your feet and not behind them? I think the picture is exaggerating the technique. I mean, i get what they are saying about leaning back and stuff, but that picture just seems wrong.
Please enlighten me, i know you will.
(This post was edited by CrazyPetie on Dec 8, 2009, 6:56 AM)
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Samiam277
Dec 8, 2009, 7:11 AM
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when it is a matter of friction (as is the case with slab climbing), you want as much surface area contact as possible. Sitting back like that helps create more contact between your shoes and the rock (to a degree.)
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curt
Dec 8, 2009, 7:14 AM
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CrazyPetie wrote: I was reading this article today: http://www.climbing.com/...ue_-_heels_of_steel/ And this picture struck me odd. Wouldn't you want your center of gravity over your feet and not behind them? I think the picture is exaggerating the technique. I mean, i get what they are saying about leaning back and stuff, but that picture just seems wrong. Please enlighten me, i know you will.
The helmet is all wrong.
Curt
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CrazyPetie
Dec 8, 2009, 7:17 AM
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Samiam277 wrote: when it is a matter of friction (as is the case with slab climbing), you want as much surface area contact as possible. Sitting back like that helps create more contact between your shoes and the rock (to a degree.)
I understand that part. I know what they are trying to say, but the drawing is what i have problems with. Hes not even standing on his feet, he looks more like hes sitting down. You can have your center of gravity positioned over top of your feet and still make alot of contact by droping your heels. Or am i completely crazy.
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testpilot
Dec 8, 2009, 7:40 AM
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It appears that you have answered your own question in your post. If you look at your picture, that guy is falling off. It is exagerated to make a point of increasing surface area as much as possible with your feet.
That picture looks a lot like "your buddie" Mike as he was peeling ropeless off of "Grab Your Balls."
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rainman0915
Dec 8, 2009, 7:48 AM
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its just an artists rendering, that does not look like he spent a long time on, and its really hard to portray a gesture like slab climbing in a quick drawing.
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CrazyPetie
Dec 8, 2009, 8:19 AM
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testpilot wrote: It appears that you have answered your own question in your post. If you look at your picture, that guy is falling off. It is exagerated to make a point of increasing surface area as much as possible with your feet. That picture looks a lot like "your buddie" Mike as he was peeling ropeless off of "Grab Your Balls."
Yea the guy in that picture doesn't have a rope either
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kriso9tails
Dec 8, 2009, 8:44 AM
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Wearing shorts is a good call. You will get lighter with each successive fall due to skin and blood loss. That means less weight to haul off those micro crimps. With sufficient blood loss, your head will get lighter too!
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Hooky
Dec 8, 2009, 11:24 AM
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One observation: The general idea is not to maximize the contact surface area (feet vs. rock) but the normal (=perpendicular) contact force (friction happens to be independent of the surface area). Therefore, if you lean backwards as in the picture, you press with your feet to the rock much harder and much more perpendicular. As a negative side effect, your arms are under more stress.
In my opinion, the rule of the thumb on o slab or vertical rock is: if you have good feet and poor hands, stand straight up wih your weight above your feet (unlike in the picture). If you have poor or no feet and relatively good hands, lean backwards and stand somewhat as in the picture. A minor drawback is that 90% of time you have poor feet and poor hands.
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stagg54
Dec 8, 2009, 12:43 PM
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CrazyPetie wrote: I was reading this article today: http://www.climbing.com/...ue_-_heels_of_steel/ And this picture struck me odd. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=4400;[/image] Wouldn't you want your center of gravity over your feet and not behind them? I think the picture is exaggerating the technique. I mean, i get what they are saying about leaning back and stuff, but that picture just seems wrong. Please enlighten me, i know you will.
I thought you were bragging about climbing 5.12 Shouldn't you have figured this out already?
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gerbil
Dec 8, 2009, 1:58 PM
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slab climbers dont wear shorts.
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jaablink
Dec 8, 2009, 2:31 PM
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The arrow points the proper orientation of the gas propulsion system to propel you into the wall when on slabs… you just need the correct fuel…..
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jcrew
Dec 8, 2009, 3:23 PM
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it looks as if the climber is taking a dump or getting lowered.
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cantbuymefriends
Dec 8, 2009, 3:28 PM
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I don't know where that dude's CoG is, but it's not anywhere near vertical to his feet.
This "style" would require really good handholds, in which case you don't need any slabclimbing technique anyway...
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rockforlife
Dec 8, 2009, 3:36 PM
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testpilot wrote: It appears that you have answered your own question in your post. If you look at your picture, that guy is falling off. It is exagerated to make a point of increasing surface area as much as possible with your feet. That picture looks a lot like "your buddie" Mike as he was peeling ropeless off of "Grab Your Balls."
No he is not.
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jaablink
Dec 8, 2009, 3:40 PM
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there is nothing wrong with this guys position....Look closer… CP is just a troll who wants attention….
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dan2see
Dec 8, 2009, 3:47 PM
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I will agree with this...
gerbil wrote: slab climbers dont wear shorts.
And I agree with this, too...
rainman0915 wrote: its just an artists rendering, that does not look like he spent a long time on, and its really hard to portray a gesture like slab climbing in a quick drawing.
I'm sorry but I don't go along with this drawing at all.
My advice is, find some actual photos, and see what their bodies are doing.
Here in the Rockies, we encounter an awful lot of slabs and slabby walls. You get used to it, you get to know what it feels like to climb well. That drawing sure doesn't look like how I feel on slab.
Sorry I don't have any current snapshots of me, but I remember in an older photo of me, a shot taken from the ground, I was standing straight up on my feet, pretty-well balanced on my spine.
(edit to add)
No matter where you climb, if it feels good, you're doing it right. I'm sure the caricature feels somewhat off.
(This post was edited by dan2see on Dec 8, 2009, 3:59 PM)
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trenchdigger
Dec 8, 2009, 4:11 PM
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Hooky wrote: One observation: The general idea is not to maximize the contact surface area (feet vs. rock) but the normal (=perpendicular) contact force (friction happens to be independent of the surface area). Therefore, if you lean backwards as in the picture, you press with your feet to the rock much harder and much more perpendicular. As a negative side effect, your arms are under more stress. In my opinion, the rule of the thumb on o slab or vertical rock is: if you have good feet and poor hands, stand straight up wih your weight above your feet (unlike in the picture). If you have poor or no feet and relatively good hands, lean backwards and stand somewhat as in the picture. A minor drawback is that 90% of time you have poor feet and poor hands.
Yes... at least someone gets it. Body position with better feet will be more vertical with feet directly below. With decent hands and bad feet, better purchase can be had by pulling out on the holds, pressing your feet into the rock.
The problem with the illustration is not his torso position, but his arms and legs. Arms should be straighter and knees should be bent.
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edge
Dec 8, 2009, 4:21 PM
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gerbil wrote: slab climbers dont wear shorts.
Well they should certainly wear something.
I know the tripod effect may indeed add additional friction, but it is damn unpleasant to climb below.
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CrazyPetie
Dec 8, 2009, 6:00 PM
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stagg54 wrote: CrazyPetie wrote: I was reading this article today: http://www.climbing.com/...ue_-_heels_of_steel/ And this picture struck me odd. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=4400;[/image] Wouldn't you want your center of gravity over your feet and not behind them? I think the picture is exaggerating the technique. I mean, i get what they are saying about leaning back and stuff, but that picture just seems wrong. Please enlighten me, i know you will. I thought you were bragging about climbing 5.12 Shouldn't you have figured this out already?
I thought i figured it out, thats why i was just making sure i was right. I mean, i've never done a move quite like that guy in the picture.
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hafilax
Dec 8, 2009, 6:27 PM
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Bad illustration. The description in the article makes more sense in the context of slab climbing. That picture looks more like dealing with friction footholds with good hand holds which isn't slab climbing.
For that kind of climbing Perry's Lieback on the Grand Wall in Squamish comes to mind. Steep climbing up a lieback/undercling kind of thing with what seems like glass for footholds. You really need the opposition between your hands and feet to keep you on the wall and it is incredibly pumpy. Stand up too tall and your feet will come skating off.
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fist
Dec 8, 2009, 7:39 PM
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Hooky wrote: One observation: The general idea is not to maximize the contact surface area (feet vs. rock) but the normal (=perpendicular) contact force (friction happens to be independent of the surface area). Therefore, if you lean backwards as in the picture, you press with your feet to the rock much harder and much more perpendicular. As a negative side effect, your arms are under more stress. In my opinion, the rule of the thumb on o slab or vertical rock is: if you have good feet and poor hands, stand straight up wih your weight above your feet (unlike in the picture). If you have poor or no feet and relatively good hands, lean backwards and stand somewhat as in the picture. A minor drawback is that 90% of time you have poor feet and poor hands.
This is a very common misconception. It's taught that way in high school physics but friction in real life is actually dependent on surface area, a long with a number of other variables that usually get generalized out. The position increases the normal force and the surface area, leading to a higher static friction.
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Hooky
Dec 8, 2009, 8:20 PM
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fist wrote: Hooky wrote: One observation: The general idea is not to maximize the contact surface area (feet vs. rock) but the normal (=perpendicular) contact force (friction happens to be independent of the surface area). Therefore, if you lean backwards as in the picture, you press with your feet to the rock much harder and much more perpendicular. As a negative side effect, your arms are under more stress. In my opinion, the rule of the thumb on o slab or vertical rock is: if you have good feet and poor hands, stand straight up wih your weight above your feet (unlike in the picture). If you have poor or no feet and relatively good hands, lean backwards and stand somewhat as in the picture. A minor drawback is that 90% of time you have poor feet and poor hands. This is a very common misconception. It's taught that way in high school physics but friction in real life is actually dependent on surface area, a long with a number of other variables that usually get generalized out. The position increases the normal force and the surface area, leading to a higher static friction.
You are right. It is difficult to by absolutely accurate when it comes to friction, because most of the knowledge is empirical. It is generally true that friction between rigid bodies (rock) does not depend on the contact area, while friction between deformable materials (climbing shoes) somewhat icreases with the surface area. Although I didn't really measure it, I think that the normal force component still dominates over the surface area component.
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dugl33
Dec 8, 2009, 8:38 PM
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Only in the context of great, positive, handholds or an invisible wall that dude is resting his bum on, would this be a realistic drawing of good slab technique.
Your basic stance is straightish legs, straight back, and either vertical like a plumb bob or arms length away from the slab. Leaning out beyond vertical implies good handholds, and this doesn't sound much like any true slab climbing I've been on. Perhaps you'll manage a little back arch to survey what's coming.
You want heels dropped and "nose over toes", looking for "footholds" that are marginally rougher spots, or have credit card edges to smear the middle of your sole on, dishes and lower angle spots. In short, its subtle. Sometimes your best hope is merely something a little less polished. (Good climbing rubber free of dirt, age hardening, etc will help. Wash it and wire brush it if need be.)
Occasionally, you might get a good palm smear where you are pushing with your arm down below your waist level, or a good enough handhold to pop the feet higher than your basic body position.
I think the real trick is good gentle momentum shifting from one foot smear to the next, with good surface area on reasonable spots. If you over-reach, getting to close to parallel to the rock surface, you will soon find yourself sliding, sliding, sliding -- trying to remember when you last clipped something down there.
Tough friction is brief time delayed failing smears, and you must keep moving. Sometimes you will get to enjoy the unnerving little foot skate on the unweighted foot each time you shift weight to the new higher foot - sometimes for the entire pitch.
Enjoy. Pray to stick. And climb when temps are cool.
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