love this discussion ... guess all of us RC bums know better than ....

kelly cordes ...


It’s hard to imagine why anyone climbing a multi-pitch route these days would use a regular tuber or figure-8 on a multi-pitch route. Auto-blocking devices, an evolution from plaquettes or “magic plates,” previously used by savvy climbing guides to manage multiple clients, have rightly caught on with the mainstream. They’re exponentially more efficient, addictively so (I haven’t used a non-auto-blocker for a multi-pitch climb in 10 years), and they’re safer, too. They rappel and feed out rope to the leader just as smoothly, but automatically lock up if the second falls. This last part is where the magic comes – after leading, you can belay the second “hands-free,” just pulling up slack as needed, but not having to hold the rope when they stop to remove gear or work out a move. This allows you to get organized – and staying organized is key for multi-pitch efficiency.

Yes, he seems very safety conscious.

http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/bad-breaks/

Hitch your wagon to any star you like, dude.

Curt

[T]here is one [rule] that i do not break- my brake hand does not come off the rope . . .

sh!t happens ... or are ya saying they are all unsafe .... and autoblock devices as well

the safest way is to not climb at all

I have had a HUGE problem with the Reverso and the ATC Guide in beginners hands since they came out. The people that are using them largely do not seem to understand the systems. It's just a "cool" shiny object.

The devices are not unsafe. It's the people who use them.

Belaying either off the anchor or having a redirect off the anchor is useful if you ever need to escape the belay. It's just easier.

I have had a HUGE problem with the Reverso and the ATC Guide in beginners hands since they came out. The people that are using them largely do not seem to understand the systems. It's just a "cool" shiny object. Both are fine devices when used by people who know what they are doing.

These style devices are specific tools to preform specific functions.

the American Mountain Guides Association teaches as a standard of operation that a tube device in guide mode (autolock) is a hands-free device that you can walk way from without tying off.

I was taught this in my rock instructor course and when i balked at the idea, i was chided and more or less had my concernes ignored and/or dismissed.

there are few hard and fast rules in roped climbing, but there is one that i do not break- my brake hand does not come off the rope while belaying. ever.

i think its fair to say that ANY device is dangerous in the hands of someone who doesnt know how and is not practiced ... including the very basic ATC ... which is the original drift of this thread

love this discussion ... guess all of us RC bums know better than ....

kelly cordes ...


It’s hard to imagine why anyone climbing a multi-pitch route these days would use a regular tuber or figure-8 on a multi-pitch route. Auto-blocking devices, an evolution from plaquettes or “magic plates,” previously used by savvy climbing guides to manage multiple clients, have rightly caught on with the mainstream. They’re exponentially more efficient, addictively so (I haven’t used a non-auto-blocker for a multi-pitch climb in 10 years), and they’re safer, too. They rappel and feed out rope to the leader just as smoothly, but automatically lock up if the second falls. This last part is where the magic comes – after leading, you can belay the second “hands-free,” just pulling up slack as needed, but not having to hold the rope when they stop to remove gear or work out a move. This allows you to get organized – and staying organized is key for multi-pitch efficiency.


colin haley ...

Belay Devices

Both climbers should absolutely use a belay device that is auto-locking for belaying the follower. Belaying straight off the anchor in this fashion is safer, and gives you time to eat, drink, and adjust clothing at a belay.

andy kirkpatrick

Magic tube

By far the best current belay device and descender is the versatile magic tube design, a cross between a magic plate and belay tube, best demonstrated by the Petzl Reverso and Reversino. The beauty of this design is its flexibility with three different frictional variations available to the user, allowing you to fine tune your rope control. Another important feature is the device’s ability to double as an ascender – a major advantage once it comes to problem solving. Although ascending the rope may seem a strange function for a descender, being able to get back up a rope is often the only way to get down!

wow! ... they must be idiots for using an autoblock device ... how did they ever do all the climbs they do ...

A new or inexperienced climber very well may not understand the implications of following that advice and unfortunately it will not be them paying the price for it, it will be their even less experienced second.

I think those are unwise endorsements for any belay device. Those guys are highly experienced climbers with solid and proven partners. They have also done and seen enough to make an informed decision about something as fundamentally abhorrent as routinely releasing control of the brake strand of the rope.

A new or inexperienced climber very well may not understand the implications of following that advice and unfortunately it will not be them paying the price for it, it will be their even less experienced second.

the American Mountain Guides Association teaches as a standard of operation that a tube device in guide mode (autolock) is a hands-free device that you can walk way from without tying off.

I was taught this in my rock instructor course and when i balked at the idea, i was chided and more or less had my concerns ignored and/or dismissed.

there are few hard and fast rules in roped climbing, but there is one that i do not break- my brake hand does not come off the rope while belaying. ever.

I belay the second in guide mode almost exclusively. When I go hands-free, I do so only with a catastrophe knot in the brake, and I still check the tension every three or four seconds to make sure the climber's okay. It's still nice and fast, and I really see zero reason for me to not belay that way. Plus, I really like to say the word "guide." Guide, guide, guide, guide, guide, guide, guide, guide — whee!

Aside form the absolute miracle any of us managed to climb at all before there were 'guides' making money off of climbing - they only set minimum 'safety' standards for those offering commercial services. I put very little stock in anything they say collectively other than as simply an expression of opinion and one aimed at commercial services and insurance concerns at that.

Now that alpine climbers might prefer 'guide mode' I get, but otherwise I think it's just another thing that will encourage the general demographic to become complacent, distracted, and further abdicate some of their responsibilities to a device. True, probably not as many drops as the with grigris, but only because most folks will eventually dog their way up one way or another and won't need to be lowered.

The #1 imperative in climbing today should be STFUAB and this is just another thing that encourages the exact opposite.

And in the case of the ATC–Guide, a cool shiny object with the word "guide" in it. What more could a beginner want?

Jay

I'm doing so because the the specifics are largely irrelevant to the lesson the OP should be taking away (basic pilot error) and all the the rest seems to be confusing them by reinforcing their assumption the lack of a different device or technique was the problem. Bottom line is you should be able to lower someone all day with the configuration they were using, that they couldn't was the issue both in their judgment and skill level relative to that choice.

I don't belay off anchors ever and dislike redirecting most of the time. When I hear that's the norm then my guess is people are doing a lot of dogging and that's the real reason for belaying off the anchor.

But this incident has nothing to do with either belaying off the anchor or redirecting - this is strictly a case of someone belaying in a circumstance and situation where they shouldn't have been belaying. They most likely just brought the two rope strands together in front of them and gravity did the rest. From the sound of it both D and A were in over their heads and experience level for this incident to have occurred as it did.

STFUAB

So what are the implications of following that advice on a correctly configured plaquette device in autoblock mode?

What is this price you speak of?

Guide!