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Marylandclimber
Nov 16, 2011, 11:45 PM
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After you say that your partner says "Than I don't want your deadly old biner belaying me" and he leaves. :p
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tolman_paul
Nov 16, 2011, 11:49 PM
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One thing to consider with the gridlock, and any other more complex gizmo, is how does it work in the real world of climbing? For instance, on a rappel are you more likel to get your shirt or a sling snagged on the gridlock and jamming up the works? You'd be amazed how easily gear can tangle up, when you don't want it to. Hence to me, the gridlock is a potential problem, and I don't see it making me a safer climber. Yes a belay biner can wander while belaying and be cross loaded. The key is belaying smoothly.
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Marylandclimber
Nov 16, 2011, 11:49 PM
Post #29 of 53
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MD climber :D
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Jooler
Nov 17, 2011, 12:30 AM
Post #30 of 53
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Someone was using a gridlock biner at Horne Lake last weekend and my partner and I actually witnessed it cross load. No idea how, if there is a little groove on it or something or not. He was belaying with a grigri2. The end of the biner was still clipped into his belay loop but somehow the grigri caught on maybe a bump or the gate or something, and the biner stayed crossloaded while he lowered his climber off the top of the climb. If I had had a camera I would have pretended to take a picture of something behind him to catch the crossloaded gridlock in action.
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moose_droppings
Nov 17, 2011, 3:21 AM
Post #31 of 53
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tolman_paul wrote: One thing to consider with the gridlock, and any other more complex gizmo, is how does it work in the real world of climbing? For instance, on a rappel are you more likel to get your shirt or a sling snagged on the gridlock and jamming up the works? You'd be amazed how easily gear can tangle up, when you don't want it to. Hence to me, the gridlock is a potential problem, and I don't see it making me a safer climber. Yes a belay biner can wander while belaying and be cross loaded. The key is belaying smoothly.
Yeah, and the key to not getting things tangled up in your rap biner is to watch what your doing, with any biner. I'm not buying that the gridlock automatically makes rapping less safe, let alone a less safe climber. You are entitled to your belief though.
I'm not keen on the gridlock, but if someone wants to use one, until shown that they are inferior, let them have at it. I would imagine (here I go sounding like BB) that Black Diamond has done much more testing on them than you.
So bearbreeder, who ya gonna believe, BD or some RC expert. In my first response to you I was politely trying to point out to you that you were starting to sound like one of the " I know better RC experts" that you constantly chastise.
Spell edit.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 17, 2011, 3:23 AM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 17, 2011, 3:35 AM
Post #32 of 53
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Obviously plenty of people will believe marketing departments 
Put it this way if xloaded belay biners are a real issue ... Why does bd sell normal lockers for belaying purposes
After all safety is paramount
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bearbreeder
Nov 17, 2011, 7:25 AM
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well BD obviously believes that their rocklock $10 biner which i use occasionally works fine ...
so whats all this about spending extra $$$ on a belay biner that doesnt xload? ...
fear sells ... every marketer knows that ... even if its not said explicitely, its often implied ... ie buy this $$$ jacket or it will fail and youll go poofy, buy these quality cams or theyll blow on you, buy this biner or itll snap on you
everyone has seen people and companies implying ways to justify parting you from your $$$$ ... and it works
i see absolutely nothing hypocritical in asking WHY we should buy all this fancy new gear ... in some cases it may be worth it ... in others it likely wont be
ask yourself this ... is it really .... can someone name one accident report where it happened with a properly tightened locker ???
i have yet to have any partner go through my gear and refuse to climb on my 7kn OG rated neutrinos ... or insist that i belay em with a gridlock ... which i will gladly do if it helps em keep their head on when leading ...
i think it says wonders when people sprout off about "safety" this and "safety" that ... yet still climb with others using "not as safe" gear ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 17, 2011, 9:45 AM)
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iknowfear
Nov 17, 2011, 9:24 AM
Post #35 of 53
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bearbreeder wrote: no one with a gridlock has insisted that i belay em with a gridlock unless you do ... how does that make your life safer, yr partners sure ...but unless you insist yr partner belay you with a gridlock, its a bit hypocritical perhaps someone can provide me with the accident report of a belay biner failure due to xloading ... its a perfectly fine belay biner ... but so are a ton of other ones that are cheaper and lighter ... and whos users dont go on about how safe their gdirlock is
Your insistance in "old ways" is on par with your inability to google.
http://books.google.ch/...&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ
I'd have to look up references, but I think that there was some documentation of cases in the book series by Pit Schubert.
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bearbreeder
Nov 17, 2011, 9:42 AM
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iknowfear wrote: Your insistance in "old ways" is on par with your inability to google. http://books.google.ch/...&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ I'd have to look up references, but I think that there was some documentation of cases in the book series by Pit Schubert.
thanks for this reference ... could you provide one where it was being used as part of a proper belay system that isnt something thats quite out of the manufacturers recommendation (petzl does not recommend the gri gri for lead solo, nor i suspect would DMM recommend a single biner for that attachement point on a lead solo)
note the silent partner instructions which IS recommended for leading uses TWO biners
i take it then that you refuse to use belay biners that can be cross loaded ... or be belayed by one ...
or do ya just not solo on lead with one and gri gri as in the reference ...
hmmmm ....
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 17, 2011, 9:55 AM)
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shoo
Nov 17, 2011, 10:02 AM
Post #37 of 53
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Crossloaded belay carabiners, as used when belaying, simply don't fail when crossloaded, either in theory or practice. In other words, for standard use, crossloading is a negligible, possibly non-existant, safety issue. This is not necessarily true of other uses (roped soloing in particular).
If no safety is gained, but annoyance of use and additional cost is incurred, you have a net negative. The gridlock is therefore worse than more standard biners for normal belay use. The belay master (which i have and never use) at least help ensure that your screw gate is locked, which is an actual safety issue.
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eRJe
Nov 17, 2011, 2:22 PM
Post #38 of 53
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I haven't used or even really looked at a Gridlock, but I have a question about them. Perhaps someoen that uses them could answer this for me. Are they big enough to belay using a Munter, or if you select one as your belay biner are you limited to only using a belay device?
I don't normally belay on a Munter, but I also don't normally drop my belay device half way down a multi-pitch route either.
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njrox
Nov 17, 2011, 2:35 PM
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good question. I don't have my gridlock or a rope right in front of me, but I want to say that it would be big enough. like, just enough.
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moose_droppings
Nov 17, 2011, 4:29 PM
Post #40 of 53
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bearbreeder wrote: well BD obviously believes that their rocklock $10 biner which i use occasionally works fine ... so whats all this about spending extra $$$ on a belay biner that doesnt xload? ... fear sells ... every marketer knows that ... even if its not said explicitely, its often implied ... ie buy this $$$ jacket or it will fail and youll go poofy, buy these quality cams or theyll blow on you, buy this biner or itll snap on you everyone has seen people and companies implying ways to justify parting you from your $$$$ ... and it works i see absolutely nothing hypocritical in asking WHY we should buy all this fancy new gear ... in some cases it may be worth it ... in others it likely wont be ask yourself this ... is it really .... can someone name one accident report where it happened with a properly tightened locker ??? i have yet to have any partner go through my gear and refuse to climb on my 7kn OG rated neutrinos ... or insist that i belay em with a gridlock ... which i will gladly do if it helps em keep their head on when leading ... i think it says wonders when people sprout off about "safety" this and "safety" that ... yet still climb with others using "not as safe" gear ...
Thanks for proving my observation.
I'll reiterate for you. I don't necessarily disagree with all your positions. By you making the call and insisting which instances (companies included) someone is right or wrong makes you nothing less than what you purport to loath, the "RC expert". That's all I'm referring to as, hypocritical.
Their is nothing wrong with someone that chooses to use the gridlock, it's not what you or I would use, so what. I'm not looking down at them because I deem the gridlock unnecessary or some "RC experts" can get by with another biner of choice. Not everyone is a hard core as you. I'll simply state my choice of belay biner or even call it hype, but I will feel no need to defend my position. It's simply a personal choice.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 17, 2011, 4:35 PM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 17, 2011, 7:16 PM
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you missed it
to put it simply
if someone chooses to use the gridlock its up to them ... and i have several partners who use the gridlock ... it their business
if however they choose to go off sprouting about how itll make em "safer" on a belay to me or telling someone i know about how its "safer" and they "need" one ... then it becomes my business
just like people who use quads for 2 bolts anchors, refuse to use dropped biners, insist on backing up their belay loops etc ... its their business ... until they start insisting how "safe" it is, and thus by extension implying or explicitely stating that you are somehow less safe for not using one
its really that simple
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shockabuku
Nov 17, 2011, 8:21 PM
Post #42 of 53
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TOO MANY F-ING EMOTICONS!!!
STOP IT!STOP IT!STOP IT!
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Qozux
Nov 18, 2011, 12:11 AM
Post #43 of 53
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I have a Gridlock and I use it because I find it annoying when my belay carabiner crossloads. I'm sure that close to 100% of non-abused 'biners made in the last several years are perfectly safe, so I don't really care what my belayer is using as long as it's a locker and they have good technique. I prefer (as of late) to belay with my Gridlock because I feel it puts my belay device (Gri-Gri, ATC-XP, Chuy) in a more comfortable position for me.
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qwert
Nov 18, 2011, 8:55 AM
Post #44 of 53
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Qozux wrote: I have a Gridlock and I use it because I find it annoying when my belay carabiner crossloads. I'm sure that close to 100% of non-abused 'biners made in the last several years are perfectly safe, so I don't really care what my belayer is using as long as it's a locker and they have good technique. I prefer (as of late) to belay with my Gridlock because I feel it puts my belay device (Gri-Gri, ATC-XP, Chuy) in a more comfortable position for me.
Will it be a safety issue if your belay biner gets crossloaded?
Probably no.
Can it be annoying?
Probably yes.
Personally i hate it if the biner flips. Its not a problem, but i dont like it (handling wise), so i would really like to have a biner that avoids that.
However due to the fact that the gridlock does not have 100% round stock and that it seems to me as if the alloy is too soft, i keep using a "normal" biner. But should BD decide to produce an improved version (round stock, good alloy) i will definitely get one, even though that will mean that im going to spend ~15€ on an item that will see no other use than gym and sport climbing belaying.
qwert
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billcoe_
Nov 18, 2011, 10:35 PM
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Can a locker fail under body weight only if it is cross loaded?
Yes. Several fatalities attest to this.
That is has occurred in the past via rapping on figure 8s indicates that it is possible to happen with a Gri Gri or Cinch belay if the Gri Gri got in the wrong position AND the leader fell at that time. Probable ? Very very low chance. As the belayer typically monitors the belay, it would be very very rare, but still could happen.
I've considered and thought of it, but still don't own a DMM belaymaster or a Gridlock. However, I have been using a Fixe twist lock since before those devices came out stictly because the Gri Gri (Ciinch) can't ride over the gate as the twist section is too big on both ends of the gate. No chance at all of a failure due to crossloading. NONE.
You should be considering these kinds of things on all of your systems....all the time. All of us should. Will I let someone belay me with a regular locker. Sure. Would I be more likely to put my device on the rope first. Sure. However, I also don't climb with people who have only been climbing for less than 2 years. Figure that the experience reduces my chance of them not monitoring their belay device or a million other things we take for granted as experienced climbers.
But that's me. Do whatever you want. It's a (mostly) free country for now.
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qwert
Nov 19, 2011, 8:48 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: Can a locker fail under body weight only if it is cross loaded? Yes. Several fatalities attest to this. That is has occurred in the past via rapping on figure 8s indicates that it is possible to happen with a Gri Gri or Cinch belay if the Gri Gri got in the wrong position AND the leader fell at that time. …
Maybe i'll do some photos later.
qwert
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shoo
Nov 19, 2011, 1:21 PM
Post #47 of 53
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billcoe_ wrote: Can a locker fail under body weight only if it is cross loaded? Yes. Several fatalities attest to this.
Evidence please, or I am calling BS to this statement. I simply don't believe that a modern carabiner would fail under bodyweight while crossloaded.
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caughtinside
Nov 20, 2011, 12:52 AM
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Gridlocks... very popular with the n00b crowd. Also those who have to have the latest and greatest.
I only have one little Gridlock story. So this summer me and a buddy are heading up to the base of a climb. We pass another party at the base of a different climb. It's a very popular multipitch 5.7, and the dude is just racked for bear. Full double rack plus hexes and at least 3 Big Bros. Sweet.
But the Designated Second of this partnership is the real enigma. He has two tripled slings on his harness... and both slings have two Gridlocks. 4 Gridlocks? I can only speculate, but I'd guess the Designated Second planned to use those slings to connect himself to the anchor. Why Gridlocks? Either a foolish clerk told him they prevent the deadly cross load, or else maybe he just saw the price tag and thought the most expensive biners are the best? The world may never know. But hell, that's 4 lockers for $100.
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qwert
Nov 20, 2011, 10:01 AM
Post #49 of 53
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shoo wrote: billcoe_ wrote: Can a locker fail under body weight only if it is cross loaded? Yes. Several fatalities attest to this. Evidence please, or I am calling BS to this statement. I simply don't believe that a modern carabiner would fail under bodyweight while crossloaded.
So just image the locker sitting in the harness, and a rope in the 8.
If the rope is tensioned (as it would be, while you are belaying) the 8 can easily stay in that position. Try it yourself! with most lockers you can easily find a position where you can let the 8 rest on the gate just with a little tension of the rope.
If you then put some force on the rope - and thus the 8 - as for example in a fall, the 8 acts as a lever and multiplies that force. It is not enough to break the biner in cross loading mode, but i can be enough to break the "barrell" (or however that thin is called) of the screwgate, thus unclipping the 8, as if you would have been using a nonlocker.
So its nor really a crossloading faliure, but rather an open gate failure, but it has been caused by crossloading.
But i think that failure mode is specific for the 8. I cant really reproduce it with an ATC or something, though i think one could also do it with an grigri or similar (probably anything where only the "hard" belay device is attached to the belay carabiner, and not the rope.
Unfortunately i cant find it online, but i am pretty sure that the DAV has listed quite some accidents with that, and probably indeed some fatalities.
qwert
(This post was edited by qwert on Nov 20, 2011, 10:03 AM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 20, 2011, 10:24 AM
Post #50 of 53
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that type of failure looks like it would still happen with a gridlock ... a belay master however may prevent it ...
not that it has anything to do with regular belay use ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 20, 2011, 10:25 AM)
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