|
curt
Jun 1, 2003, 6:24 PM
Post #51 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: It (the "B" scale) is stupid and confusing, the product of an unrefined knowledge of the sport. As a scale of measure it is rudimentary at best and good luck getting anyone under 35 to embrace it wholeheartedly.
Yes. It was invented by John Gill. He obviously knows far less about the sport of bouldering than you do. I am somewhat surprised he has not sought you out as the ultimate source of knowledge on the topic.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 1, 2003, 6:35 PM
Post #52 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
The fact that it started simply enough at B1, B2, B3 and two of those have been split into 3 subcategories with the third grade STILL being dependent on how many strong climbers are at or have visited a certain area denotes flaws in the system.
Obviously, if each of those numbers had to be split into 3 then the scale was inadequate in its transition to modernity. Since the B3 rating is effectively lopped off the scale due to an increasing number of strong, travelling climbers, the scale is almost a third totally useless.
Again, I do not expect you to understand why the scale is flawed... you obviously both adhere to it and would love to kneel before the altar of John Gill. And, I appreciate the vocal criticism of the IPS scale.
But it is PERHAPS possible that a scale which was invented when there was only a handful of true bolderers and true bolder problems isn't capable of handling the post-sportclimbing revolution modern world of boldering.
Also... b3 is such an obvious and blatant pandering to the first ascentionist's ego. HA !
IPS isn't for everyone. You must make some difficult choices and an eventual pilgrimage. No other scale demands such dedication or work.
And isn't b2 so much better to say when people ask how hard you climb, instead of v4 ?!?!?
OMG YEs.
And one more thing... just because John Gill or Chris Sharma or freakin Fred Nicole or the Verm or whoever makes it up isn't a valid arguement as to the goodness or badness of the thing. The thing exists on it's own and any criticism I have of the b-scale is NOT a criticism or slight directed at John Gill, which is the implication of your post.
In fact, I'm willing to bet that Mr. Gill would agree to the statement: "The b-scale, in its original form, is an inadequate scale for what boldering has become."
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 1, 2003, 6:50 PM
Post #53 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: The thing exists on it's own and any criticism I have of the b-scale is NOT a criticism or slight directed at John Gill, which is the implication of your post.
Nice attempt to retract you previous statement. Unfortunately it is already out there.
In reply to: It's stupid and confusing, the product of an unrefined knowledge of the sport.
"the product of an unrefined knowledge of the sport" can hardly be interpreted as a mere criticism of the scale itself.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 1, 2003, 7:01 PM
Post #54 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
If I wanted to retract ANY statement I made, I would use the "edit" button.
It is a fact: people have WAY MORE bad ideas than good ideas. Think about Draw boldering. You might try 3 or 4 heel toe cams or bicycles until you find the one which best takes your weight through a move.
Why is it such blasphemy to say that the b-scale was sitable for the timeperiod in which it was invented, but trying to port that to todays boldering landscape results in confusion and ego stroking arguements.
Furthermore, Curt... I am sure John Gill is not offended by my statements. I wouldn't make an ad hominem attack against the man, and I am sure he is intellectually capable to stand up to an actual well-thought-out critique of his b-scale. I am aslo sure he is far more able to separate the two scenarios, since he is probably not as synonymous with the b-scale in his own mind as you make him out to be.
But then again, you have a history of speaking for Mr. Gill, don't you ?!?!! You know exactly what he's thinking and how he feels, eh ?!?!
You really think he appreciates you inflaming and continuing these "battles" on his behalf ?!?!
Personally, I think you are sullying the name of the father of true boldering by invoking it in your own petty squabbles with me. I am sure that John Gill really doesn't give a fuck if a small group of internet saavy bolderers choose to adopt the IPS and herald it as the answer to the shortcomings of previous systems. He doesn't climb for grades, much less grading scales, MUCH LESS the grading scale of some puck internet kidz.
And yeah, I might not have been his close personal friend for 40 years, but I feel confident in saying THAT, anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 1, 2003, 7:08 PM
Post #55 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
In reply to: ["the product of an unrefined knowledge of the sport" can hardly be interpreted as a mere criticism of the scale itself.
The sport of boldering, at the time of the conception of the b-scale, was IN ITS INFANCY.
Do football players still wear leather helmets ? Do basketball players still use peach baskets ? Do wakeboards still have tapered noses ?!?!?!
It is possible to suggest that as time passes from the point of conception of an idea, there MIGHT BE more and different idea which come along and augment or change or even destroy the conventions which made so much sense during the first iteration of a sport.
To suggest these ideas is not a slight at previous ideas.
Furthermore, Curt... where is yor IRE for John Sherman ?!?! He undermined Gill TO THE MAX... and yet you reserve your mean words for me ?!?!?
Obviously, people who you respect a lot more than I have found fault with teh b-scale.
Again... your namedropping is crappy. Crappy.
And the inability to reason that change might be good gives new meaning to "Old and set in my ways."
Old and IN THE WAY ?!?!? hahahahahaha.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 1, 2003, 7:34 PM
Post #56 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Lox,
In reply to: The sport of boldering, at the time of the conception of the vscale, was IN ITS INFANCY.
My main point (pissing contest aside--for the moment) is that the bouldering world hardly needs another new and obscure difficulty rating system. There are tons of them--and they only serve to confuse things.
If you look in the back (p. 287) of Stone Crusade, 2nd ed. by John Sherman, you will see a bouldering scale correlation that I put together with the help of many others. It includes:
The YDS
The original B scale
The expanded B scale
The V scale (Hueco)
The S scale
The Joshua Tree Scale
The UK scale
The Fontainbleau scale
The first edition of the book also included the P scale from Oak Flat, AZ. This was later dropped when the P scale was altered in an attempt to bring it into line with the V scale. The IPS scale may be fine, but is hardly any kind of breakthrough in the area of ratings concepts. Why re-invent the wheel?
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 1, 2003, 7:45 PM
Post #57 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
In reply to: Lox, In reply to: The sport of boldering, at the time of the conception of the vscale, was IN ITS INFANCY. Bouldering was hardly "in its infancy" in 1991, but that's not really worth arguing about.
Typo.
It's been fixed in the original post.
You'd think you could have reasoned what I meant from the say... entire context of my post. heh. funny2me.
That aside. All those grading scales exist (and many more internationally) because at a certain point in time they meet a PURPOSE.
Over the years, a few have emerged as being "standard."
But, some people think that these standard scales are inadequate and simply do not want to adhere to the standard scale. And after having looked at the other various scales, none of them really account for how I personally want to approach climbing. The IPS scale is kind of a joke... but EVERY SCALE is really. And if you are going to be wrapped up in a joke, you might as well be wrapped up in the irony rather than the standup humor that the vscale is or the knockknock joke that the b-scale is.
And why do you care how I grade things ?!?!?
Why is my dislike of say... every scale except for the IPS scale upsetting ?!?!
In other words, I understand that your panties are all in a wad that I have the IPS scale and laud it above all... but why work yourself into a lather over something you have no control over ?!?!?
Can you not just accept that I defy your convention ?
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
Jun 1, 2003, 7:50 PM
Post #58 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
Lox, you are no were near cutting-edge as you preceive yourself to be. You are walking down a path that was clear by other climbers years ago when you were still watching Mr. Rogers and Sesame St or dancing to the Backstreet Boys. The reason why IPS scale will never be widespread is because it is a rip-off of the B-system.
To Fieldmouse, what's up, dude and Vaino sends his regards. Later!
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 1, 2003, 7:53 PM
Post #59 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
I don't percieve myself to be 'cutting edge' you twat !!!!!1
ha!
I am just a bit particular.
Your grasp of the situation is about as good as your grammar.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 1, 2003, 7:53 PM
Post #60 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
I don't care how you grade things. I only take issue with your idea that the IPS should become the generally accepted rating convention.
I mix and match ratings myself. I will sometimes call a problem B2 or sometimes say V7, or if it is a very long problem, I will use the YDS equivalent. Most often though, I will revert to the ancient British Adjectival system of easy, moderate, hard and really f___ing hard.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 1, 2003, 8:03 PM
Post #61 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: I don't percieve myself to be 'cutting edge' you twat !!!!!1 ha! I am just a bit particular. Your grasp of the situation is about as good as your grammar.
Lox making friends again, by insulting Bob D'Antonio, another legendary American climber. Pathetic.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 1, 2003, 8:10 PM
Post #62 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Bob,
By the way, regarding.....
In reply to: To Fieldmouse, what's up, dude and Vaino sends his regards. Later!
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
Jun 1, 2003, 8:10 PM
Post #63 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
Lox, did you have a hard childhood? Calling me a "twat" really hurt my feelings! I don't think I can carry-on.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 1, 2003, 8:14 PM
Post #64 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Bob,
Why did you pose your question to Lox in the past tense?
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
bvb
Jun 1, 2003, 9:09 PM
Post #65 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 954
|
you're all confused. the woodson scale in the most venerated and logical scale in use today. 28 years in the developing.
it goes like this: if you flash it, or do it in leass than 5 tries, it's "pretty doable"
anything harder, and it's 5.11c.
5.11c....more than just a grade, it's a way of life.
btw, the Ice Pond is pretty cool, even if it IS in Connecticut. But for truly obscure classics, go the the West Tisbury boulder's on Martha's Vinyard. rated with the G&T scale...if you can do it with 6 or more G&T's in you, it's easy. if you can only do it with 4 or less G&T's under your belt it's moderate. 2 G&T's or less, it's hard. If you can only do it sober, it's 5.11c.
heh
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 1, 2003, 9:49 PM
Post #66 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
In reply to: you are no were near cutting-edge as you preceive yourself to be. You are walking down a path that was clear by other climbers years ago
I don't care how kickass a climber you were in the midsixites, there is NO EXCUSE for this sort of rambling incoherency. Put down the bottle, Bob1953, it's Sunday morning for chrissakes.
And Bob D'Antonio isn't "legendary."
Furthermore, the Ice Pond is in Putnam County, New York... and I never said that the Ice Pond Scale should be "become the generally accepted rating convention." I know it will never be, simply because it is TOO beautiful for the common mind to behold. I have simply always asserted that it is BETTER than every other rating system out there, and if you have never climbed at the Ice Pond, you are in no postion to judge the validity of the statement.
Hey, I've never climbed in Font either... so perhaps I would dig the Font scale better. But prolly not, cuz it's french.
|
|
|
|
|
bvb
Jun 1, 2003, 11:11 PM
Post #67 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 954
|
is putnam county, like really close to the conn. border? coulda swore it was conn. or maybe there's two ice ponds?, but that's doubtful. traded e-mails with some connecticut boulderers on the place about a year ago.
gin and tonics, or 5.11c. heh. how much simpler, ow much more elegant can you get than that?
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 2, 2003, 12:11 AM
Post #68 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
Putnam county is near Connecticut, yeah.
But you ain't been there.
And vodka tonics are way better than gin & tonic. Urf. Gin. The hangover QUEEN.
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
Jun 2, 2003, 12:11 AM
Post #69 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
Hey Lox/ Cody, I started climbing in 1971, not the 60s.
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 2, 2003, 12:20 AM
Post #70 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
Call me Lox, oldster.
And welcome, n00b.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jun 2, 2003, 12:27 AM
Post #71 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
First Lox posts this:
In reply to: (The B scale is) stupid and confusing, the product of an unrefined knowledge of the sport.
Then he continues with:
In reply to: I don't care how kickass a climber you were in the midsixites, there is NO EXCUSE for this sort of rambling incoherency. Put down the bottle, Bob1953, it's Sunday morning for chrissakes. And Bob D'Antonio isn't "legendary."
Tell you what, I will plead guilty to worshiping at the altar of Gill. One thing is for sure--no one will ever worship at the altar of Cody. You are absolutely nothing more than a pathetic internet personality desperately seeking attention.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 2, 2003, 1:18 AM
Post #72 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
Curt.
First off, I hope noone ever 'worships at the altar of Cody.' Jesus. That's a little egocentric, even for me. So that statement is terribly ineffective.
Secondly, the b-scale and this new iteration, the "expanded b-scale" which you yourself list as a separate entity from the b-scale, is IMHO a less than adequate scale as a boldering rating scale.
This does not mean I dislike John Gill or fail to recognize his particular genius. The man is not holy. It is possible that the needs of certain people have moved past the scale he created at the birth of the sport.
And, as pathetic as it is that I don't drool over having been insulted by Bob D'Antonio (OMG THE BOB D'ANTONIO I CAN DIE A HAPPY MAN NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!111) it is far more pathetic to use the respect John Gill has garnered over the years against me because I vociferously prefer an obscure boldering scale.
Remember that post I made where I simulated an exchange between us ?!?! This is the part where I AGAIN iterate and clarify the motives of my words to you and you AGAIN fail to understand while continually making me address the same thing over and over again.
The least you could do is agree to disagree, admit that BobD1953's post is some fo the worst English to appear in one of these threads in a long time and recognize that SOME PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THAT 'bobd1953' IS SOME OLDSTER HARDMAN TO LIKE 15 GUYS. He's just another internet schmuck like the rest of us... noone wants to hear about his rockclimbing.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say I'd rather shoot myself in the foot than hear about 3 days nailing up the Black Canyon. There is a trad forum you know...
So, in conclusion, I know you will probably at least pretend that most of this has gone over your head, and that's ok. I appreciate that sort of irony form someone who demands each internet personae to "bring their real self" to the rc.com.
You are a shining example for the rest of us to follow.
|
|
|
|
|
bvb
Jun 2, 2003, 1:19 AM
Post #73 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 954
|
In reply to: Putnam county is near Connecticut, yeah. But you ain't been there. And vodka tonics are way better than gin & tonic. Urf. Gin. The hangover QUEEN.
Lox, you ninny.
I never said I'd been there...But the guys who first started developing the Ice Pond contacted me on NewEnglandBouldering.com because I opened so many new new england boldering areas in the late 80's and early 90's -- they were curious and checking to see if I had been there. Turns out, near as we could figure, I'd been to a nearby area, but not the Ice Pond proper.
If I ever do feel like going there I can line up full beta and the pro tour in about 10 minutes. As I can do for just about any "secret", "obscure" or "quiet" bouldering area in the US. With luck, in another 20 years, your contacts might be half s good as mine. Heh. But I doubt it.
If you want more info on our exchange, call the homies up...I'm sure you've got their number. Or just check the archives on NEB.com.
You have much to learn, oh brash one. You first chore will be to learn to avoid jumping to conclusions.
|
|
|
|
|
lox
Jun 2, 2003, 1:25 AM
Post #74 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 2307
|
In reply to: If I ever do feel like going there I can line up full beta and the pro tour in about 10 minutes.
I love it when people brag to me about knowing me.
http://www.0friction.com/...riction_pic_1412.jpg
My point wasn't dependent on whether or not you COULD go there... it was dependent on whether or not you HAD.
Ya dig ?
|
|
|
|
|
bvb
Jun 2, 2003, 1:28 AM
Post #75 of 159
(2857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 954
|
no offense, not that i doubt you've got the place fully sussed...but i'd be heading out some of the locals, the not an austinite who has made a visit, or makes occasional visits. maybe this fall??
oh, one more thing...when you speculated i had not been there...exactly waht WAS your point?
|
|
|
|
|
|
