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crux_clipper
Feb 25, 2004, 7:24 AM
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well, four pages was alot to read, so i thought i would skip ahead and come back to the original question.
I 'dynamically' rested on cluster of gear placed behind a thin flexing flake. the nut ABOVE the black alien pulled right down and out the bottom of the flake, the alien stayed strong! my belayer was crapping himself more then i was.
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cfnubbler
Feb 25, 2004, 2:49 PM
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In reply to: does anyone actually trad climb carrying screamers?
Yup. I often carry screamers. My home crags are loaded with RP and micro-cam seams. If I didn't use black aliens, RPs/Swedges, etc. as free climbing pro, I'd never get off the ground.
I've had tiny cams and wires from several manufacturers rip. I've also had them hold. It's ALL about the placement.
CCH states that the black alien is not for free climbing. They understandably do this to cover their as*ses in our overly litigious society. All the while they know perfectly well that they'll be used as free climbing pro and build them accordingly. If they really were "for aid climbing only" (i.e. body weight only), 8.5 Kn is overkill. Are cam hooks "rated" at 8.5kN? If they were rated at 25kN would you be psyched about them as pro?
A friend of mine from the UK tells stories of doing FAs in the slate quarries outside of llanberis. The rack sometimes consisted of a set of friends and a sky hook. The hooks were set on edges and the friends were used as ballast to keep the hooks in place. Do you suppose the hooks were approved for free climbing?
Learn the limitations of your gear, take the manufacturers advice in to consideration, then make your own decisions. Me, I'm gonna place the black alien everytime and then keep looking for more pro soon.
-Nubbler
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tedc
Feb 25, 2004, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: That reminds me, does anyone actually trad climb carrying screamers? I've certainly never seen this, except perhaps with preplaced gear on sketchy grit routes.
I carry them about half the time and use them about half of that. I'll probably get this wrong and get "math flamed" but I think that means I use them on like 25% of my routes. I've never fallen on one hard enough to activate it.
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kansasclimber
Feb 25, 2004, 7:51 PM
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for all of those that wanted my black alien, I think im going to keep it. It sounds like it may come in handy, and why have i had a good 4 or 5 people ask me for it. That means it must be worth somethin. Anyways thanks to everyone that posted.
And here's my FINAL THOUGHT:
Black aliens are NOT rated for free climbing. They are, by the manufacturing scale, only for aid climbing. The balck alien sounds like it will hold a free fall IF placed correctly. Over 8 Kn of strength is easlily enough holding power to catch an average person. This is not recommended but people have and will do it anyways. The black alien will be used to sew up many cracks to come, but not without precautions. If you place one, and its all you got, just dont fall. BETTER THAN NOTHING. If in doubt take up a screamer. Climb safe, and remember to protect the 2nd.
Stephen
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angry
Feb 25, 2004, 8:40 PM
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David, you asked why the black alien instead of something else.
The alien places better
All the REAL climbers have aliens, follow their example
The alien has been refined and re-refined through customer input, that alone makes it better than WC zero's, they are too new
Whoever said he ripped a green, it probably happened. You can rip anything you place wrong. Is your friend green and bendable....Gumby.
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madmax
Feb 25, 2004, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: So please carry on using it for trad if you think luck is on your side.... There is always another piece of gear you can use.
No. The gist of many posts here is that sometimes there isn't another piece to use, so using the black alien is better than not placing anthing at all.
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drkodos
Feb 25, 2004, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: David, you asked why the black alien instead of something else. The alien places better All the REAL climbers have aliens, follow their example
I freely admit to being a surreal climber.
I do not use the black alien, nor do I own one. I do have quadruple blue through red, and a double set of hybrids.
Although I've been climbing 30+ years, aliens are not that old, so in 15 years of experience with them, and 10 with the black alien, which debuted sometime @ 1994, I have used it and found that more often than not, something else does work.
Case in point: Honky Tonk Woman 5.9 Shawangunks, Near Trapps. The crux is protectable (?) by a black alien, but 3 of the camheads make contact and one is unstable, all while sitting at a ridiculous angle to the rock. Instead, a 00 Hugh Banner brassie fits perfect, as does the Purple Metoliuos TCU #1, since it has a narrower profile than the alien, and the placement was only holding 3 of the 4 alien camheads to begin with.
All that being said, a post above made a point that I felt was 100 percent accurate when they stated that knowing the limits of the gear and yourself are the most important factors in terms of any piece of gear and its use.
As a bold climber myself (many r/x routes above 5.10 under my belt, and I still seek the adrenaline rush of it at 44 years of age) the Black Aliens are not my cup ot tea.
I would also like to remind some that there is a major differnce between breaking strength and holding power. Breaking strength of the black alien may be over 8kn, but its holding power is rated less than 1kn. The acceptable threshold is usuall @ 2000lbs f. The black alien is rated below this number.
The fact is that 2000lbs of force is rarely generated. When it is, I guarantee that thing will rip. Taking a 20 foot fall 60 feet up a climb is a fall factor of .33 Even a 20 foot fall while 21 feet up a climb is a fall factor of .99999 Anything less than a fall factor of 1 does not generate as much force as you guys think becauser of the dynamic ropes we use.
No one here has a story of anything other than falls that are less than factor 1. I doubt if most that have posted even now what is really is and how it effects the amount of force delivered to the protection system.
Fall factor is an important variable and it has been ignored. When the fall factor becomes greater than 1, that piece has almost no chance of holding. That is why it is considered an aid piece.
Once fall factor get above 1, force begins to build in geometric proportions. Do some real homework. Learn about vector physics and how they effect each piece in your system. There is more to climbing than the climbing.
Do as you will, but most of you are doing so from behind a set of very thick blinders. And when things are not working in your favor, in all likelihood you will never even recognize it.
Until then, heed the advice of the dogmatic on this site with much caution.
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dirtineye
Feb 25, 2004, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: No. The gist of many posts here is that sometimes there isn't another piece to use, so using the black alien is better than not placing anthing at all.
Something is way better than nothing, haha, especially if you can get in a lot of little stuff. if you have a choice between a number one ballnut or nothing, you will place the ballnut. THe black alien is way bigger than a lot of good gear. It's how you place a piece that counts. If the piece breaks, then it was too weak for the job. IF it pulls out, then you placed it wrong, or you placed the wrong piece. In eihter case, yo might not have placed enough pieces.
But don;t lissten to me, I don;t have any aliens, so I'm not a real climber :shock: .
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jt512
Mar 30, 2004, 9:39 PM
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Caveat: I have never fallen on a black Alien. In fact, a couple weeks ago I backed off a route because the only pro I could get to protect a runout crux was a black Alien. For what it's worth, I fell on a blue Alien this past Saturday.
In reply to: A black alien may or may not hold (as previous posters have indicated).
I disagree with this. You make it sound as if failure is random. I don't think it is. I think it is determined largely by the quality of the placement. I think a very well placed black Alien will hold a "typical" lead fall. I explain why below.
In reply to: If you have to rely on a black alien, I would generally suggest burying it as deep in the crack as you dare (and have your partner still be able to clean it).
I vehemently disagree with the above. With small cams -- black to blue Alien in size -- the placement has to be damned near perfect to be reliable. This is because the camming range of small cams is very narrow and so there is very little room for error in the placement. Getting a good placement with a small cam is complicated by the fact that the inside surfaces of cracks are irregular. Consequently, the only way you can insure that all 4 lobes of a small cam are placed within their optimal range is to be able to see each lobe. This negates burying the piece deeply in a crack; you simply will not be able to see whether each lobe is sufficently retracted, as required for a safe small cam placement.
In reply to: On really small cams, the lip of the rock might break before the cam does.
True enough, especially in soft rock. But you must be able to see whether all 4 lobes are optimally cammed. If you place the cam so deeply that you can't see each lobe, you're shooting dice.
The black and blue Aliens have about the same camming range as the 00 and 0 Metolius TCUs, respectively. A few years ago Metolius down-rated their 00 and 0 TCUs from 2000 lbf to 1000 lbf, explaining that the lower rating was because of the difficulty of getting a bomber placement with small cams (for the reasons I stated above). Nevertheless, an optimal placement -- when you can get one -- should still hold 2000 lbf (I would think). Even 1000 lbf is a lot better than nothing, and would be sufficient to hold low fall-factor falls. Since the black and blue Aliens are similar in size to these Metolius pieces, I would think that Metolius's conclusions would apply to Aliens.
-Jay
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atg200
Mar 30, 2004, 10:02 PM
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going back to kodos's post. why in god's name are you trying to set yourself up for fall factors of greater than 1? i do absolutely everything in my power to keep the fall factor as low as possible, so a well placed black alien will more often than not hold in my system.
if you are routinely taking high fall factor falls, lack of common sense is a bigger problem than lack of physics knowledge.
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sspssp
Mar 30, 2004, 11:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: A black alien may or may not hold (as previous posters have indicated). I disagree with this. You make it sound as if failure is random. In reply to: If you have to rely on a black alien, I would generally suggest burying it as deep in the crack as you dare (and have your partner still be able to clean it). I vehemently disagree with the above. With small cams -- black to blue Alien in size -- the placement has to be damned near perfect to be reliable. In reply to: On really small cams, the lip of the rock might break before the cam does. True enough, especially in soft rock. But you must be able to see whether all 4 lobes are optimally cammed. If you place the cam so deeply that you can't see each lobe, you're shooting dice. -Jay
Well, I don't totally disagree with your comments, but I'll stick by my comment that a black alien "may or may not hold."
If you have the alien out at the lip where you can easily see all four cams, then I think you are taking a really big chance on the rock breaking out or if the crack is at all "hollow" and flexes just the tiniest amount, it will let the alien slip out because there is no margin for error.
So I don't believe you can have a "perfect" placement at the lip. Even granite isn't necessarily strong enough.
If you bury the head, you don't have these concerns (as much), but you trade off being able to see the cams (as well). I say it is a roll of the dice either way.
Even if you bury an alien, you can usually get some look at the cams. Even if you can't look at the cams, you can tell how much the trigger bar moves when you release it. This certainly won't tell you if every cam is perfect, but it will give some sense of how cammed down the alien is.
I'll stick to burying it (or placing a Lowe Ball), but, obviously, anyone can roll the dice as they like.
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euroford
Mar 30, 2004, 11:19 PM
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i've never wipped on a black alien, and i generally don't keep the smallest zero's on my trad rack, but i must agree with the overall philosophy of somthings better than nothing.
to add a bit of experience to the holding power of small cams, i have placed them (aliens and zeros) in the side of my brick wall (i think i've mentioned before how i use the manky south elevation of my 3 story home for aid practice) and literlly jumped up and down on them with both feet (we'll call this the ultra bounce test) repeatably as hard as a can without having them pull. and boy lemme tell ya, my brick wall is beyond mank.
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 30, 2004, 11:43 PM
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Aliens are my favorite cams.
But I rarely carry a blue and I don't own a black. On the other hand I carry and use a 0 and 00 TCU all the time.(the only tcu's I carry anymore)
The main reason being that it is easier to visually verify a tcu than an alien. (with soft rock I switch back to the blue alien) With a tcu you can see the back cam from above or from below. With an alien it is pretty much just from above. For myself, determining how good a small cam placement is mostly a matter of how much I can visually verify the placement.
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daisuke
Mar 30, 2004, 11:48 PM
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I haven't heard many good things about the black alien on falls, there are pictures on this website somewhere showing what happens when you take a big fall on them: they rip out, and one girl decked because of it causing her a serious head injury. I don't own one, but I wouldn't trust it to hold a major fall even if I did!
D
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jt512
Mar 30, 2004, 11:56 PM
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In reply to: Even if you bury an alien, you can usually get some look at the cams. Even if you can't look at the cams, you can tell how much the trigger bar moves when you release it. This certainly won't tell you if every cam is perfect, but it will give some sense of how cammed down the alien is.
"Some sense" isn't good enough with small cams. The difference between whether a black Alien will hold a fall or not comes down to fractions of a millimeter. You must be able to visually inspect each of the cam lobes. If any one is undercammed, the holding power of the unit may be halved, compared with an optimal placement.
-Jay
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nthusiastj
Mar 30, 2004, 11:58 PM
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I can't say about the black. But I have taken about a 7 foot fall on a blue. It held fine and the lobes are just a little notched from the granite. I wouldn't want to take a fall on a black.
Oh, I weigh about 175.
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couloir
Mar 31, 2004, 12:03 AM
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"The alien places better
All the REAL climbers have aliens, follow their example
The alien has been refined and re-refined through customer input, that alone makes it better than WC zero's, they are too new"
Do you own any Aliens? Are you a REAL climber? If you would compare an Alien and a Zero you would realize that they have nearly identical cams. But let's compare the differences: zeros are lighter, they have extendable slings, they have a higher strength rating, the cam heads are much more durable, and their made by Wild Country, who was the first company to produce cams. I don't know if I'm a REAL climber since I own both Aliens and Zeros. I must be a sellout.
And who would have thought that black aliens would have a part in natural selection?
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jt512
Mar 31, 2004, 12:12 AM
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In reply to: Aliens are my favorite cams. But I rarely carry a blue and I don't own a black. On the other hand I carry and use a 0 and 00 TCU all the time.(the only tcu's I carry anymore) The main reason being that it is easier to visually verify a tcu than an alien. (with soft rock I switch back to the blue alien) With a tcu you can see the back cam from above or from below. With an alien it is pretty much just from above. For myself, determining how good a small cam placement is mostly a matter of how much I can visually verify the placement.
Interesting, Dan. I've always placed Aliens in preference to TCUs because I find my TCUs rotate as I climb above them. That's usually not important for the #1 or larger TCUs, but for the really small ones I would think that the rotation could ruin the placement. Do you find that the 0 and 00 TCUs rotate? Do I just need to use longer slings?
-Jay
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sspssp
Mar 31, 2004, 12:18 AM
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In reply to: I don't know if I'm a REAL climber since I own both Aliens and Zeros. I must be a sellout. And who would have thought that black aliens would have a part in natural selection?
So I've been curious about the Zeros (I've used Aliens for a long time). How do you see the tradeoffs between Zeros and Aliens? If you could only own one, which would you choose? I'd be interested to know.
Unfortunately, a lot of improvements in climbing have been at the expense of natural selection (and I don't see this changing any time soon).
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dorkmaster
Mar 31, 2004, 12:21 AM
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you can always double up the screamers....or triple...or quadruple...etc..hehe...not meaning to hijack the thread or anything, but after you add so many screamers in a chain, (not sure how many it would take, depends on peice) could you reduce the chance of pro failure to 0? :shock:
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 31, 2004, 12:21 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Aliens are my favorite cams. But I rarely carry a blue and I don't own a black. On the other hand I carry and use a 0 and 00 TCU all the time.(the only tcu's I carry anymore) The main reason being that it is easier to visually verify a tcu than an alien. (with soft rock I switch back to the blue alien) With a tcu you can see the back cam from above or from below. With an alien it is pretty much just from above. For myself, determining how good a small cam placement is mostly a matter of how much I can visually verify the placement. Interesting, Dan. I've always placed Aliens in preference to TCUs because I find my TCUs rotate as I climb above them. That's usually not important for the #1 or larger TCUs, but for the really small ones I would think that the rotation could ruin the placement. Do you find that the 0 and 00 TCUs rotate? Do I just need to use longer slings? -Jay
At one time I quit using all my tcu's because they walk. (25 ft'r on a top rope fall) Since then I have started using them again for the reasons stated above. And yes, using long slings helps their stability. Prewalking the cams helps even more. This also allows using a short sling and counting on getting something better in soon.
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euroford
Mar 31, 2004, 4:36 AM
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In reply to: you can always double up the screamers....or triple...or quadruple...etc..hehe...not meaning to hijack the thread or anything, but after you add so many screamers in a chain, (not sure how many it would take, depends on peice) could you reduce the chance of pro failure to 0? :shock:
no, becouse screamers activate at 2kn, so no matter how many you use the piece is always subject that amount of force min.
on the debate of zero's vs. aliens. well, i think they are both fantastic designs and i would rack one set of each as opposed to two sets of either. always better to have diversity, and yes i do own both. so, IMO, don't choose between them, they are both worth having.
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kidmoab
Mar 31, 2004, 5:54 AM
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Back to the original topic:
My black alien was not even out of the store when this fall was set up. The sandbagger at nomad ventures in Josh says "you gotta do right V crack, in Indian Cove..." Since it's my favorite grade and it was cold that day...
They were short falls, (the piece was at my feet) close to the ground, and the "aid only" piece kept me off the deck for about three tries.
That route is way harder than 10a.
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smithclimber
Mar 31, 2004, 6:33 AM
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In reply to: Now there are people here who say, BS i have fallen on this many times. Well you are lucky then. Now lets say it did not hold and you decked. I bet you would be here crapping on how this gear did not hold and it shhould of blah blah...
In reply to: What if now some person places that gear on a trad route falls and then grounds and kills themself? are you will to take the responsibility for suggesting that it was ok to use on a trad fall?
How many times do we have to say... any piece of gear is better than having none at all. If someone dies cause a black Alien fails, then they would have died from the same fall without the Alien as well. Not placing any gear at all rather than the so called "aid only" gear is just retarded logic. :roll:
You are saying that nothing is a better option than something. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
In reply to: There is always another piece of gear you can use. |
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smithclimber
Mar 31, 2004, 6:39 AM
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In reply to: Question for you geniuses that refuse to place the Black Alien in lieu of NOTHING for pro when free climbing: How many of you have ever fallen on NOTHING and had it hold? When you venture away from the sport crags, you don't always get 3 evenly spaced, equalized pieces at your anchor, and you can't always protect the crux with a number one camalot either. If you are uncomfortable with the idea that you may have to deviate from the text book or manufacturer recommendations, take real risks, and rely on your ability to climb through a poor pro section without falling as your #1 parachute, then you should stick to routes whose protection scheme you can clearly see from the ground.
Here ye, here ye!!! Exactly! Well said Melissa!
Crickey... when will they "get it"?
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