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itakealot
Jul 19, 2004, 8:11 PM
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I see some climbers run out routes by skipping clips or not placing pro at bomber placement opportunities and was wondering what the point was.
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billcoe_
Jul 19, 2004, 8:15 PM
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Sometimes the pro isn't needed for safety, and sometimes stopping and putting it in will pump you out, so you pass it over to go to the next rest stance. Depends how high up you are and what are the risks of augering in.
When in doubt, put it in though.
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boltdude
Jul 19, 2004, 8:15 PM
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If you're going fast over comfortable terrain or linking pitches, running it out saves time and rope drag. Can be essential to doing long routes especially alpine stuff where you have to be off before the 1pm thunderstorm.
But if you're talking about your local short crag, it's probably just someone showing off...
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jt512
Jul 19, 2004, 8:16 PM
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In reply to: I see some climbers run out routes by skipping clips or not placing pro at bomber placement opportunities and was wondering what the point was.
Too pumped to stop.
The climbing is easy for them.
Mental training.
-Jay
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jakedatc
Jul 19, 2004, 8:16 PM
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Sometimes it's easier to skip a bolt that is in a bad spot than to waste the energy to clip.. same with gear i suppose but i'd leave both to folks with quite a lot of experience to judge weather or not it's safe to do so... and if you're not sure.. you are not in that group so clip or plug gear
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euroford
Jul 19, 2004, 8:16 PM
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placing pro on lead takes time and causes ropedrag, removing pro while following also takes time and perpetuates said rope drag, all increasing the pump and taking more time. so, if you want to move fast and feel comfy at the grade, run it out.
a couple weeks ago, my buddy got tired of messing with it, slapped in a black alien and pulled through the crux to run it out ~25 feet. pretty balzy but it kept the pump clock at bay, sometimes its harder to hang out and mess with gear than it is to just send.
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davidji
Jul 19, 2004, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: I see some climbers run out routes by skipping clips or not placing pro at bomber placement opportunities and was wondering what the point was.
Mostly when I skip bolts it's because I didn't see them. I've skipped a couple on purpose once when rearranging the pitches meant I was short of slings. Couldda just used a biner, but I figured the climbing was pretty easy, and I didn't mind running it out a little. I've repeated that pitch a couple of times, and was plenty happy for all the bolts and had no inclination to skip any. I guess perspectives change...
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rrrADAM
Jul 19, 2004, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: I see some climbers run out routes by skipping clips or not placing pro at bomber placement opportunities and was wondering what the point was.
They don't take a lot. J/K :lol:
When climbers are cl.imbing well within their abilities, they tend to climb quickly, and placing what is deemed as un-necessary pro is inefficient. It's akin to not using a crashpad when on a warmup problem well within your abilities.
As for FAs establishing Trad routes like that... Trad can have bolts, but the ethic of Trad is to have as little impact on the rock as possible, so many times Trad routes with bolts tend to be runout, like those in Tuolumne. If the slab sections were bolted every 6-10 feet, they would not bew Trad routes, they'd be Sport routes.
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jt512
Jul 19, 2004, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: a couple weeks ago, my buddy got tired of messing with it, slapped in a black alien and pulled through the crux to run it out ~25 feet. pretty balzy but it kept the pump clock at bay, sometimes its harder to hang out and mess with gear than it is to just send.
Euroford, unless you want to go the way of the Edsel, you might want to consider not running out a climb above a single piece of body weight pro.
-Jay
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mother_sheep
Jul 19, 2004, 8:26 PM
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Sport: I rarely skip a bolt!!! If I do it's because I'm in a spot where I'd pump out tring to clip the bolt so I move on.
Trad: If the climbing is easy/mental training (like Jay said)
Alpine: To save time, I place less gear. Lots of run outs on my alpine leads.
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slablizard
Jul 19, 2004, 8:28 PM
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Always thought that TRADITIONAL climbing involved the placement of gear on lead...
A runout bolted route is a runout sport route...Or no?
Did they developed all those routes ground up? I s that that makes them traditional? Or is the fact that thy're runout?
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jt512
Jul 19, 2004, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: Always thought that TRADITIONAL climbing involved the placement of gear on lead... A runout bolted route is a runout sport route...Or no? Did they developed all those routes ground up? I s that that makes them traditional? Or is the fact that thy're runout?
Leaders have been placing bolts long before sport climbing was invented. If the bolts are placed minimally and by hand on lead, the route is a trad route.
-Jay
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climb_plastic
Jul 19, 2004, 8:56 PM
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I always forget to clip in and my belay partner doesn't say anything either. I think he wants to see how far I'd go before I realize anything.
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flipnfall
Jul 19, 2004, 8:58 PM
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TRUE STORIES
Because these people are like my freind, who's name (Dan) I won't mention, purposely ran out and placed only one size 4 nut on the entire 70-foot climb because, I'm not making this up, "It wouldn't have been any fun to place more pro." He then proceded to take a 30-foot whipper and the nut held. He replied, "Wow, I'm suprised that held because it wasn't a good placement."
He also likes to take corners on his crotch-rocket as fast as he "possibly can without spilling." This is the same guy who traversed 50 feet without placing any pro so that when I seconded I had nothing to protect me from taking a giant swing into a rock column below.
It's interesting to climb with him.
GT
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benpullin
Jul 19, 2004, 9:09 PM
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Sometimes on really hard sport routes (cutting edge 14s, etc.) you'll see climbers skip clips because some of the bolts are "working bolts." These are only used for working the route and not needed on redpoint attempts.
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euroford
Jul 19, 2004, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: a couple weeks ago, my buddy got tired of messing with it, slapped in a black alien and pulled through the crux to run it out ~25 feet. pretty balzy but it kept the pump clock at bay, sometimes its harder to hang out and mess with gear than it is to just send. Euroford, unless you want to go the way of the Edsel, you might want to consider not running out a climb above a single piece of body weight pro. -Jay
agreed. but where does the term 'when in doubt run it out' come from? if you were stuck with a tricky placement at a pumpy stance and could only plug in a black alien, would it be better to risk actually testing that placement and spend more time faffing about with gear or would it be better to run it out to a better stance? i guess this doesn't fall into the topic of 'purposely running out', it was a valid case for doing so. on the other hand, after pulling the rope i took my turn, having watched him lead it first and having followed him afterwords to clean i had a better game plan and set more better pro (we were also climbing with diffrent racks), but perhaps if i was attempting to flash the route i would have been in a simular situation for my lead.
i should also add, that despite the fall being very long, the fall factor would have been very low. the alien was as bomber as could be, in a near perfect placement on very solid quartzite. if ever a situation existing for a success story of a huge whipper on a micro cam this was it.
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vegastradguy
Jul 19, 2004, 9:13 PM
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it really depends.
sport- i'll never skip a bolt, but then i havent been climbing overhanging routes much. i imagine that may change when the overhangs become more popular.
trad- usually its in the interest of speed when on easy ground. however, i'll always protect so that if a fall should occur, i wont hit anything. of course, most of the time when i'm running it out its because the guy who did the FA thought it would be fun to climb 40' between bolts on a 5.9 slab. heh. good stuff!
bouldering- i regularly free solo in this category. :P
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jt512
Jul 19, 2004, 9:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: a couple weeks ago, my buddy got tired of messing with it, slapped in a black alien and pulled through the crux to run it out ~25 feet. pretty balzy but it kept the pump clock at bay, sometimes its harder to hang out and mess with gear than it is to just send. Euroford, unless you want to go the way of the Edsel, you might want to consider not running out a climb above a single piece of body weight pro. -Jay agreed. but where does the term 'when in doubt run it out' come from?
From the mouths of sarcastic climbers, mainly. Unless you are really sure about your gear, then the opposite is true: when in doubt, back it up. Even if placing the additional piece causes you to pump out and fall, you'll be falling on good, backed-up gear.
In reply to: if you were stuck with a tricky placement at a pumpy stance and could only plug in a black alien, would it be better to risk actually testing that placement and spend more time faffing about with gear or would it be better to run it out to a better stance?
First of all, you can't just "plug in" a micro cam. Micro cams must be meticulously placed if you want them to hold a fall.
You said you ran it out 25' feet above a black Alien that you just "plugged in." So if you fell, you'd be taking a 50-footer onto a piece that probably would not have held. Presumably, you'd have decked, and been seriously injured or killed. Finding yourself in such a situation is prima facie evidence of having done something wrong.
In reply to: on the other hand, after pulling the rope i took my turn, having watched him lead it first and having followed him afterwords to clean i had a better game plan and set more better pro (we were also climbing with diffrent racks)...
I think that that is a hint. I think you were in a little over your head leading this route, and ended up getting yourself unnecessarily into a life-or-death situation. With more experience, it sounds like you would have been able to plan out your gear placements better, so as to avoid having to take such a risk.
In reply to: i should also add, that despite the fall being very long, the fall factor would have been very low.
Even if you were at the end of a 200' pitch, a 50' fall would be a factor-.25. That's not "very low."
In reply to: the alien was as bomber as could be, in a near perfect placement on very solid quartzite. if ever a situation existing for a success story of a huge whipper on a micro cam this was it.
I've never risked such a fall, and I've been climbing a lot longer than you. The last time I found myself in the position of having only a single black Alien between me and a death fall, I backed off.
-Jay
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euroford
Jul 19, 2004, 9:37 PM
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okay, replace the word "plug in" and "slapped in" with "place" :roll:
anyways, the alien was frikin solid, anyways, who gives a shit! i don't need to justify my friends lead to you. it was a bold clean lead, one that i'm sure he's very proud of. i truly believe that if he had taken the whip it would have been of little consiquence, even if the alien had pulled, there were pieces below it obviously. its simply a case of a leader climbing within his abilities and making the gear choices which he feels are best.
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jt512
Jul 19, 2004, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: okay, replace the word "plug in" and "slapped in" with "place" :roll: anyways, the alien was frikin solid, anyways, who gives a s---! i don't need to justify my friends lead to you.
Based on the last couple of threads I've seen you post in, I think you may be the next recipient of the MHR2000 Memorial Award Know-It-All Gumby Award.
-Jay
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jakedatc
Jul 19, 2004, 9:45 PM
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In reply to: I always forget to clip in and my belay partner doesn't say anything either. I think he wants to see how far I'd go before I realize anything.
In reply to: This is the same guy who traversed 50 feet without placing any pro so that when I seconded I had nothing to protect me from taking a giant swing into a rock column below. It's interesting to climb with him. |
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euroford
Jul 19, 2004, 9:46 PM
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In reply to: Based on the last couple of threads I've seen you post in, I think you may be the next recipient of the MHR2000 Memorial Award Know-It-All Gumby Award. -Jay
it would be an honor.
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billcoe_
Jul 19, 2004, 9:54 PM
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I don't think JT read GT's post.
Jake may have already tolen your thunder on that one JT! :lol: :lol: :lol:
GT, an expert can and will chose to put in a #4 nut in a 70 foot pitch as they have the experiance and mind control to make a safe decision, even if we mortals think it's crazy. Dean Potter can almost fly up a 5.11 route. He puts in little pro when cranking for speed. I won't even try to judge that.
However, for your friend - or anybody- to make the choice for you on a 50" traverse with fatal potential is unforgivable unless there is some mitigating factors you haven't mentioned yet. (Like it was 5.5 and starting to get dark with lots of ground before it got flat, and you are a solid 5.10 leader blah blah -that would be one of those examples)
Thats my opinion, yup, get a new partner.
PS, no awards Euro, sorry, but JT's not on the awards committee.
edited for spelling too.
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jt512
Jul 19, 2004, 10:04 PM
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In reply to: ...he can't help but make huge involving replies to my posts.
Some people call that "being helpful."
-Jay
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