Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]

You know, I am deeply offended by this. Why would you post such a thing?

Was the dog named spot by any chance?


[/camhed]

The accident: The climber moved past the kneebar on reliquary. As he did so, rope was pulled upward with him. The belayer, at this moment, felt a tug on the rope and held down the cam to pay out some slack. At this exact moment the climber, pumped, casually let go and fell without advertisement. Gravity is always there, and is quicker than all of us. By the time she was able to react (i.e., let go of the cam), it was too late to prevent the collision. Belay error was the critical factor in this fall--it could have been prevented with a foolproof technique (that is, do not allow the brake hand to leave the brake rope ever).

I'm still confused on how it was the GriGris mistake.

I'm still confused on how it was the GriGris mistake.

Sorry for those involved.

But that was funny....

On the other hand this isn't:

"Worse, she said this was the third time it has happened to her."

Jesus....

No doubt. This is the THIRD time she'd dropped a climber?! How the hell does she get anyone dumb enough to let her belay them anymore?
e?

Not a direct reply to Social-climber, just the information in his post.

Sorry about the dog but . . .
Seriously! When will people learn that a "break assist device" ie Grigri is no substitute for proper belay skills? I'm not going to be naive and say this wouldn't have happened with an ATC or similar, because this group of climbers clearly does not have the collective intelligence to properly use their equipment.

Some people "crusade against the cult of the tricam", but I think I'm going to start the crusade against Gumbies with Grigris. Nice, it even rhymes.

***disclaimer***
The Grigri is a wonderful device in the hands of a well trained belayer.

In the original thread, the accuracy of that claim has been called into question.

Jay

Wow. My favorite part of the linked thread is the dude that is defending her, that says he dropped his sister too. But we're a safe bunch of climbers. Sure you are. Evidently the guy that was dropped had dropped someone a couple years ago too. If you have 3 dropping "accidents" in a couple of years among your climbing group, find a different bunch to climb with. sport. Unbelievable.

That thread is scarily full of incompetence that puts rockclimbing.com to shame. I don't want to go climbing at red river.

"Lets not make this personal, but I do want to learn from this. I have never seen anybody use the technique shown here by Petzl. I'll give it a try tomorrow at the gym.

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack. I can use a gri-gri just like an ATC to slowly feed out rope. I can also loop a few feet of rope and hold the cam with my thumb while keeping my index fingers on the rope - I can feed a few feet quickly this way. But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY. More importantly, my thumb is only on the cam for the half second in which I am yanking rope out. I am open minded to there being a better way - but lets not claim this method caused this accident. The only way a climber is decking from 50 feet is if you death grip the cam."

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

Wrong.

When I use the grigri I never take my hand off the brake to feed slack. Its dangerous as numerous accidents have shown and goes against all common sense of proper belaying.

So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

An update on the climbers that had the accident at Military Wall, and the dog died... It was my niece and her boyfriend. He broke his ankle, but will be okay. The dog was the best little dog around, a mutt poodle mix, only a few pounds and named "Pepper" She lived a long life and will be greatly missed. The fact that he landed on her, may have prevented him from being more seriously harmed. So we take some solace in that fact. They are both very shaken up from this and I'm not sure how it happened yet. They are experienced climbers, and have climbed at the Gorge for many years. Not some idiots some of you have suggested. I am a mountain guide in Colorado and have been climbing a long time, and was the first to teach my niece how to climb when she was a little girl. I have personally shown her how to use a Gri Gri correctly. As I have not talked to her yet about the details, but have read the posts here, it sounds like she was holding the gri gri open to feed rope, at the wrong time, as he happened to slip and fall trying a difficult move, and didn't alert her to his fall. Regardless, it just goes to show that we all need to be vigilant, especially at a busy area with many distractions. Sometimes at a fun, busy sport climbing spot, it can be a very social scene, and one can easily begin to feel that the climbing is not that dangerous, but it always is, and you must always pay close attention to your climber when on belay.

As I have not talked to her yet about the details, but have read the posts here, it sounds like she was holding the gri gri open to feed rope, at the wrong time, as he happened to slip and fall trying a difficult move, and didn't alert her to his fall.

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related Starting at 2:42

I've tried that many times as that's the natural transfer form an ATC. Never worked for me. Maybe I need to use smaller ropes. I'll try that again with a smaller rope, but when a person is clipping, it always seems like it locks up with your hands in that position.

I don't think I like the way they have the cam held open with the thumb in the middle....

That looks like a sudden fall might create a massive rope zipping effect.

So, how much experience do you have using a grigri, and how do you feed slack rapidly for clipping without taking your brake hand off the rope?

Jay

I'm going to guess that, since you are shocked by that statement, you don't use a grigri much, if at all, right?

Jay

Whats with the 20 questions Jay?

Do you suggest that a competent belay can be given if the brake strand is occasionally let go?

If I need to feed slack to the climber rapidly then I use 'Technique 2' from the previously linked video.

That said I mostly don't need to rapidly feed slack to my leader. An attentive belay and i rarely need a super fast feed. Though high sport climbing clips obvious need lots of slack. Much of my climbing is trad so a fast feed is less common.

So its okay for your belayer to take their hand off the rope when feeding slack but they need to keep both hands on it while lowering?

I normally don't have to take my hand off the rope when feeding. I use a grigri 99% of the time. I use the "new" method.

Perhaps it too much of an advanced technique for you?

Yes, using "classic" Petzl-approved belay method in the video.

So you have little experience using a grigri for the type of climbing it was designed for (sport climbing). That explains why you were so surprised at the comment.

Current GriGri instructions specify that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.
To my knowledge all previous GriGri instructions specified that you must NEVER let go of the brake strand.

If you are letting go of the brake strand then you are doing it wrong. The video mention specifically mentions reduced grip, not no grip during the 'classic' grigri style.

The vast majority of the time someone posts that idiotic smiley, they must mean "see what an idiotic thing I just said!"

Who the hell thinks they have to keep two hands on the rope to lower with a Grigri?

In twenty-some years of climbing, the only climber that ever refused to lower me with two hands on the brake side of the rope, when requested, lowered me precisely one time, and will never be permitted to belay me again.

Apparently you.....

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

I use a grigri 99% of the time

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

OMG, on the gear routes too?!?!

You must go though partners like a fat lady though BonBons.

Partners are disposable!

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

Sheez, there's a reason they changed the instructions, get with the times.

I don't use a GriGri so I have no dog in this fight but you and I both know that "the instructions" are only ever half the story.

In climbing, a lot of shit thats dangerous in the hands of a nOOb is perfectly safe, if not preferable, in the hands of an experienced climber.

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/....php?f=5&t=13284

Here’s another accident in which the belayer did not use a Grigri properly. The climber was dropped , fractured an ankle bone but hit the belayer’s dog killing the dog.

I only got part of the way through this long thread, but it appears that the most likely cause of the accident was the belayer giving slack and having her hand off the brake end of the rope when the climber fell.

Condolences on the dog and best wishes for the climber's recovery.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

As a climber from the red:

The big point in this story is that the belayer should PAY ATTENTION TO THE CLIMBER, i.e. WATCH THE CLIMBER, outside of the poor belaying technique, had she seen the fall, she could have responded. Either or both of these faults corrected could have prevented this accident. She fed slack as the climber was falling because she believed a slight tug was because he was going for a "quick clip", had she been watching the climber, she could have realized he was falling, hence not been in the "classic" "quick-clip" feed mode.

Factors in her attention span? Babies, dogs, a large crowd, noise, noise, noise, stereo, and the climber not communicating.

None of those factors matter if you don't know how to use a GriGri.

Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique. She was in the "Figure 3" position when the climber was falling, had she been watching she wouldn't have been in that position. I'm not justifying the use of the "classic" technique, I don't use it, nor do I feel others should. Yes I sport climb, yes I trad climb, yes I use a technique to quick feed which doesnt require me to let go of the brake hand. In the end, even using the "classic" technique, the accident could have been avoided had she been watching the climber. Either or both changes could have prevented the accident. So I agree, better technique could have prevented the accident, both belaying (with the "new" technique), but even more fundamentally, just looking up.

She wasn't using the "classic" technique because that technique explicitly requires you to only hold the cam while actively feeding rope quickly for a clip. Since she "didn't know how it happened" it sounds more like she was being lazy and holding the cam down for extensive periods of time which is not the "classic" technique at all, which uses a two handed technique for feeding rope to an advancing climber.

Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever

Well in this case you have two options:

give slack quickly by taking your hand off the rope (which causes shit like what started this thread).

Give slack quickly while keeping your hand on the brake side of the rope which possibly could have saved a dog here.

Now I'm not saying method 1 is total suicide (it's done a lot and usually doesn't end bad) I just think there's a safer option with no drawbacks.

With all your anal safety gripes you actually think that's a good or even acceptable idea?

Right, but the fact of the matter is that she was using the "classic" technique.

Gem.

Are you sure she was using the "classic" technique? Even using the classic classic technique, where your thumb and index finger aren't encircling the rope, you only have to slide your hand down a couple of inches to put it back on the rope. That's the only reason that this method can be considered acceptable. I've never heard of an accident due to using this technique. In almost every grigri accident that I have heard of the belayer was using a more dangerous home-grown technique to hold open the cam.

Jay

Right, but the fact of the matter is:

She didn't know what she was doing. Her partner ended up on the ground, and the dog is dead.

The saddest part is that the dog was the only intelligent one there...

RIP FluffySpot.

Yup, belay devices don't fail, people do.

This belay device failed.

http://climbingnarc.com/...tinued-indefinitely/

I have anal safety gripes? Name one.

I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question in a respectful manner.

Jay

GG PM'd!

Well, you're right about one thing. They've changed their instructions, which now only describe "method 2" in the video for feeding slack quickly. However, older versions of the instructions did say that it was permissible to use what they now call the "classic" method, and they did not show the index finger and thumb around the rope, as they seem to in the video. Keeping the index finger and thumb around the rope was a climber innovation.

Here are Petzl's instructions for how to pay out slack quickly with a grigri from an old version of their website. Click on "Paying out slack with a grigri." This is what they advocated for years.

Below is the relevant picture from the web page. Note the belayer's belay hand position in the third frame. It's not touching the rope.



Jay

Yes! Don't use a Gri-Gri and you could get pregnant.... or worse... Herpies!

I've tried the "new method," too, and frankly, I think it's crap for all but shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter.

What I don't understand is how someone who appears to be very safety conscious thinks it's a good idea to let go of the brake strand if not necessary.

If the girl would have looked at the climber it would probably not have been an accident. However, with the "new"method the chances of catching an unforseen fall increase, without any cost other then learning the new way (which is quite easy if you're used to a gri-gri).

So considering the costs of the new benefits (very low) I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Sure the chance of it making a difference is small but if it does it makes a huge difference.

Cheers

I've tried the "new method," too, and frankly, I think it's crap for all but shiny new ropes of relatively small diameter.

It was in jest.

I'm a wily one!

I'm not convinced that the new method is actually safer than the old, provided the old method is correctly employed.

How can a belayer be so inattentive that they fail to notice 50 feet of rope running through their hands?

Gri Gri= Condom

the consequences can be sever

Like this:

I have anal safety gripes? Name one.

I've already answered the question of whether I think it's safe. If you want me to elaborate, try re-ask the question again in a respectful manner.

Jay

Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...

If your going to correct someone and call them names, do a little research. Many stores online call it a Grigri and Petzl seems to only show it in all upper case as GRIGRI. Unless you have better evidence that your "GriGri" spelling is correct, STFU noob.

Dave

P.S. I'm just kidding about the STFU. I've just been waiting years to use that on someone.

Its "severe" and "GriGri", noob...

noob is spelled "n00b"

http://www.motifake.com/saveas.php?id=68705

It's*

and comma goes inside quotation mark there.

Why would anyone ever correct majid on grammar? It's, like, his thing.

Now those are fighting words.

... but seriously, can we try to get back on topic now?

he's right, comma goes inside the quotes in this instance.

That's only true in American English.

Jay

relevance? that other BS was changed for a reason ya know.