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epic_ed
Jan 13, 2005, 10:07 PM
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Discuss.
Dangle? BSmoot? Brian? Others? Spill the beans.
Ron, how did you get scooped on Moonlight Buttress? I can't believe you didn't see that line first.
Ed
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 10:25 PM
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When Jeff and Mike did the FA I was a junior in Hackley a boarding school in Tarrytown, NY. I'd already done some climbing in the Cran-Sierre area of Switzerland, but didn't own a rope or rack til '72. Still I wasn't allowed back for my senior year after Pete Lehman put a black flag on top of the cupola on top of Goodhue Hall the night before the Vice President came to our school with assistance from......(It was a pretty hairy free solo the maintanence guys weren't about to repeat)
Didn't hit Zion 'til April,'76.
I WAS looking for splitters though (remember I had Shield ambitions) and my first hour in the main canyon (after first visiting the Kolob Fingers) I picked out a good prospect on the N buttress of Red Arch. However I opted for establishing most of what would be Space Shot because it got more sun. The rest of the story can be found in the '85 AAJ
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rockprodigy
Jan 13, 2005, 10:58 PM
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I know a lot of the history behind the FFA of the N Face of Angel's Landing.
but seriously, I really think we (as a community) should try to get some of the history down on paper.
I've been trying to motivate more qualified people to put together a coffee table book in the same vein as the many that have been done on Yosemite. People seem interested, but so far nobody has picked up the gauntlet.
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 11:46 PM
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Did any of those books show a decent profit? Let's face it, despite the potential for great photos, its a relatively esoteric pursuit.
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grayhghost
Jan 13, 2005, 11:51 PM
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kind of like climbing
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 11:54 PM
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Isn't that...? Never mind.
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dangle
Jan 14, 2005, 1:36 AM
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Here's an interesting point:
How accurate is Middendorf's claim that Dave Jones and I were the leading climbers of the late 70s?
Totally false!
For one thing Jones didn't climb in Zion until 1980.
And I was there but the man of the late 70s in Zion was Scott Fischer.
So how did this arise?
Climbing Magazine, October, '84 Anyone have one? Besides the erroneous years listed for numerous FAs provided by Jones, he also wrote a telling piece of fiction called B. G. Goes to Zion.
B G stands for Blond God and while Jones claimed to have created the character from whole cloth it was a thinly veiled depiction of Fischer right down to his Dodge Dart (although there may have been a touch of Bachar thrown in). A quick read of the story reveals a marked resentment for the "god".
While his chronology predates his routes by a year or two, he postdated some of mine (Monkeyfinger for example) with one notable exception.
The route we both completed. Space Shot.
Check any history of this route and it lists the Jones claim of 1978.
One little problem.
My photos from the FA look down not only on a clearly visible Jones, but my 1981 Mazda as well......
Well I have to admit that I was a little jealous of Scott at first also.
Women threw themselves at him with regularity. With me it isn't exactly a daily occurance, but Jones? I'll leave that alone, but suffice to say that having "second pick" with Scott helped me forget any envy. Jones never hung with him.
After getting the off years into print it was easy to perpetuate. Especially when fellow Dartmouth alum Middendorf incorporated the false claim into an actual "History of Zion Climbing" in the Bjornstad guide, not known as reliable anyway.
Scott wasn't just a babe magnet. He was a skilled free climber before Friends were available. This meant desert crack climbing with just nuts! Can anyone say RUNOUT!!?
Well Scott DID it while everyone watched. He was easily the boldest climber of that time in Zion. More than once he paid the price too. We didn't call him the Flying Fischer for nothing.
As the years progressed Scott's business, Mountain Madness took off and so did Scott, but we still kept in touch. We had done the FA of the Minotaur, his first virgin summit, and he always had a smile for me. We always met at the AAC meeting, and got together to climb every so often as well.
At an AAC meeting in Snowbird in the mid 90s we went up to Kennan's room to smoke and it was there that he told me that he was going to guide Everest. My reaction was a bit dubious. He knew mountains, I didn't, but I said in a questioning tone,"Its a really big hill..."
He told me his yellow brick road theory.
He invited me to go ice climbing in Ouray again. We had had a blast but I'm not an ice climber. Much to my regret I declined.
In May Dave Mondeau called me on a friday. He had bad news about the guy that introduced us to each other. Within a day it seemed the whole world knew. Tuesday morning still in shock I went to the post office to send a letter of condolence to Jean.
In my PO box was a letter from Scott that had been run out from basecamp. It was like getting hit by a truck. He expressed concern. "Its a really big hill." He said.
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tenesmus
Jan 14, 2005, 4:35 AM
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Keep going. I like it.
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dangle
Jan 15, 2005, 8:08 AM
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Well its late and I just got back so tonight's installment will be small, but don't be disappointed. Tomorrow I'm going to give you all something juicy to chew on.
I've had several requests to address the Flying Fischer reference in greater depth (height??).
Scott was kind of touchy about that, but I think that was more out of consideration for those concerned about him, and in actuality he reveled a bit in the status accorded to someone who's logged so many air miles.
Maybe I'm projecting a trait I've seen in others that have walked away from a big one. In any case fatherhood in the 80s seems to have made him more cautious on steep rock.
Early on as a NOLS instructor he went over a hundred feet in a rappel mishap. He didn't go into great detail about the fall but rather griped about the way his employer's executive handled the medical expense from his fractures.
The Bridalveil fall early in'77 was on personal time though. I wasn't there but numerous witnesses (I think Jeff was one) were horrified to see him plummet 150' and rushed to render aid. He had been using a brand new type of ice hammer called a hummingbird that sported a tube pick. Scott's speed descent demonstrated a likely unanticipated hazard when he discovred that he had managed to produce a core sample from his lower leg.
The fun wasn't over. Because of the barbs the doctor had to saw off the pick and push it through.
Six weeks later he reattempted what would be named the Minotaur. This time I was his partner and the lead division was simple.
If it looked like free it was his, the aid was mine.
The first pitch was a familiar if poorly protected chimney but soon I was belaying him from the existing rap bolts and looking up at an offwidth running about 15' through a roof directly above me.
Its late so I'l make a long story short.
When he fell from the lip of the roof I did the one thing you're not supposed to do.
I deliberately let go of the rope.
Reaching forward with palms up I caught him like a baby, since pro wasn't an issue. Trouble was that this "baby" weighed half again my weight. My only redemption was my tie in to the sling belay (OK OK that's what REALLY caught him). We were both a bit shocked, and quickly disgusted when his leg hole opened up. Best not described.
The real problem was an injured back that would trouble him in subsequent weeks guiding Denali.
The rematch came two years later.
This time I went onto the offwidth first. I managed to aid the roof at one point stacking one of the original Lowe split cams (like I used in the video) with an upside down 11 hex!. This allowed me to drill an angle at the lip and lower off.
Scott led through to a bivy ledge from whence I led the next pitch starting with a short ladder to a pendulum. Scott's view was great and his encouragement even better. Back at the bivy we cracked open a pint of brandy.
The next morning I saw something I'll never forget. After leading some 60' above me he used a brief spot of aid.
Literally.
When the piece blew he took a short fall onto a hex. But it was connected to the rope with a new Forest rabbit runner which promtly parted.
As stated runouts were Scott's territory, and when I looked up I saw Scott completely outlined against the sky along with what seemed to be miles of serpentine rope.
It didn't come tight until Scott passed me screaming.
I recall having time to look at his rope running through the carabiner on the first piece and thinking,"There's no way I'm squeezing through THAT!"
I didn't.
Later that day after he lead yet another runout pitch I joined him on the summit.
Our "descent" was assisted by his friends Deacon and Pam Banks. After finding that he had to rap 100' first from the nearby canyon rim Deacon succeeded in his seventh (and declared final) attempt to throw us a line.
We tied a sling around the summit block and used it to lower out to the jug home.
Sometime around his death 17 years later the regretably inept Zion rescue crew "reversed" our descent going to the summit on an exercise.
Not long after I saw their residual effect.
The summit was studded with bolts.
When I asked one of them why they didn't use the natural anchor of the summit block I was told that the 17 year old sling was all ratty and frayed.
I said,"So why didn't you replace it."
He was at a loss to explain that it hadn't ocurred to him.
I walked with a giant only to discover that I had ended up with the turkeys.
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dangle
Jan 15, 2005, 6:55 PM
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Somebody has pointed out that the R&I interview listed the FA of Space Shot crediting Pey rather than Jones.
Quite right.
This is entirely my fault. While I make earnest efforts to be accurate I made an exception to exploit a mistake made by Climbing 21 years ago and Jones' deliberate dishonesty with a speck of my own.
It was a private joke to further obscure the history and deny the original liar credit.
Figured it was time to fess up and set things straight..
I hope that the reader will understand and forgive me a minor prevarication.
Ron Olevsky
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dangle
Jan 15, 2005, 8:55 PM
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Two hours and no comment. The weather can't be THAT good. Is this thread dead and I just don't know it?
I promised a juicy meal but unless this is a forum why bother?
C'mon, anybody except the two Brians.
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atg200
Jan 16, 2005, 12:27 AM
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that minotaur story is classic! are there any good stories from those cool looking towers way the hell up the hillside? i've never heard more than fischer's name when i've nosed around for beta.
the skiing in LCC was too good to sit inside today ron :)
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dangle
Jan 16, 2005, 1:27 AM
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Good to hear from you again.
Wasatch skiing huh? Yesterday's avalanche seems to have a dubioud distinction of record number of fatalities for Utah. I'd as soon not be reminded of the avalanche in the La Sals that took a friend.
A few weeks ago I risked camping in a dry wash and while I lay in my bag a wall of water killed hundreds of thousands. Then last week I saw that same wash flood and take out a train. Now this.
Momma's pissed about something!
Let's hear from some folks. This is a forum. Stop sitting on the sidelines.
(edit per user request)
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dangle
Jan 16, 2005, 7:37 AM
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I assembled the post but am having trouble transfering it to the posting window. I intend to place it in the Video thread.
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the_dude
Jan 18, 2005, 5:42 AM
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This is a great thread. The stories are great Ron. I'd love to read more!
Cheers
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dangle
Jan 18, 2005, 8:41 AM
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Open vote 'til Friday.
Moon Patrol
The Thunderbird Wall
Sunlight Buttress
Iron Messiah
Other?
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cracklover
Jan 18, 2005, 7:00 PM
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I wonder if Ambler would like to join in the discussion...
GO
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epic_ed
Jan 18, 2005, 7:37 PM
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Sunlight Buttress? Haven't heard of it yet. Where and how?
Ed
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epic_ed
Jan 18, 2005, 7:42 PM
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Sunlight Buttress? Haven't heard of it yet. Where and how?
And, Gabe, the Amber crack really wasn't necessary, was it?
Ed
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ambler
Jan 18, 2005, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: I wonder if Ambler would like to join in the discussion... GO |
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cracklover
Jan 18, 2005, 9:39 PM
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In reply to: And, Gabe, the Amber crack really wasn't necessary, was it? Ed
Hahaha - ouch! No - Ambler, not Amber.
Ambler, for some reason I thought you said you had a line in Zion, but clearly I was confused. I figured out what you meant now.
Sorry to sidetrack the conversation, please carry on!
GO
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euroford
Jan 18, 2005, 10:12 PM
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good thread!
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flamer
Jan 18, 2005, 10:31 PM
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I vote for Moonpatrol....I've been eyeing that one for awhile.
josh
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flamer
Jan 18, 2005, 10:31 PM
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I vote for Moon patrol...I've been eyeing that one for awhile....
josh
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epic_ed
Jan 19, 2005, 5:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: And, Gabe, the Amber crack really wasn't necessary, was it? Ed Hahaha - ouch! No - Ambler, not Amber. Ambler, for some reason I thought you said you had a line in Zion, but clearly I was confused. I figured out what you meant now. Sorry to sidetrack the conversation, please carry on! GO
Yeah, I noticed my odd form of dyslexia after I posted it -- and didn't delete it fast enough to not look like a dork. Sorry.
Ed
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dmckj
Jan 19, 2005, 5:27 AM
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Wow...how fascinating. Time to get a little reality back into this thread, not to mention sanity.
I know Dave Jones, and hey, what a great guy!
Unlike certain folks, it would never occur to Jones to twist any history of an ascent. For starters, there really is no 'Jones history' or lies therein because Jones has made a point on not getting involved in self-promotion (he thinks it a bit tacky). But this doesn't stop him from being slandered, does it? For those who do their research, however, all dates on all topos of Jones' first ascents are fact.
As to the minor contribution to a routes list in the 84 Climbing article.. it doesn't claim 1978, as Mr. O erroneously states, but rather 1980 (maybe it's time for reading glasses?). And as a guy lucky enough to be able to buy new cars should know, the 81 model cars came out at the end of 1980....and, surprise!....the route was climbed over Thanksgiving. But, really, who gives a gosh darn golly? The only one who seems concerned enough to have fabricated a tale of fictitious climbing partners, by his own admission in this thread, is Mr. O himself. Why?
As to the article 'BG goes to Zion'... WRONG AGAIN! Mr. O. Could this be possible? I have it on a really good source that Jones had never even met Scott Fischer when he wrote the article, and that in fact it was based on a climbing episode Jones had with John Sherman. But Jones and Sherman are friends, and the story was solely meant as put down on pretentious climbers. If the shoe fits...I say go ahead and wear that shoe whoever wants it. Oh yeah, and it would never have occurred to anyone that Jones actually used to drive a Dodge Dart in his teenage years. But, hey, don't let facts get the way of slandering someone I've always said.
My....that was refreshing.
Back to seclusion.
Mr. Jones assures me that he wishes this thread to have a long life.
adios
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bsmoot
Jan 19, 2005, 6:08 AM
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I'd like to talk about, in my opinion the two most significant pioneers in Zion climbing.
Jeff Lowe was the first person to raise the standards of sandstone climbing by ascending in apline style, the biggest walls in the park. The S.E buttress of Issac (2000') and The Toad (2,200') on the N face of The Sentinel in 1971. These massive faces were done with old gear, and were both done in only 3 days...VERY fast time for a first ascent!
When I did Moonlight, back in '78 it had a lot less bolts on it. The free climbing on the N. face of Angel's Landing was impressive back then. Jeff climbed at a very high standard.
Dave Jones was responsible for the next jump in standards. In the 80's He consistently climbed routes that had unprotected offwidths and put up the first two A5 routes in Zion...Wages of Sin & Empty Pages. Dave has more first ascents of Zion walls than anyone else...20 or so. When he would get off a wall, he would trun around & head up another one. I think he climbed 5 or 6 walls in a single 5 week trip...most of these were first ascents. Many of these climbs were 5.11 or harder with very few if any bolts placed. He bagged some real classics because he was the only one at the time who was willing to climb wide cracks.
On one of this routes, Rites of Passage ( just left of Shunes Buttress ) He and his partner were in a hurry, so they only put one bolt in at a belay. His partner climbed up a bit and fell...the bolt held...whoa! Last year, I climbed a new route on the Watchman with Dave. He hadn't climbed in 9 months. 300' up he promptly led a long smooth 5.10 offwidth...he's 48 years old.
Some of the classic Jones routes include: Shune's Buttress, The Vigil, Lovelace, Silmaril, Golden Years & Space Shot. When Dave isn't wearing out his partners he works full time as a Geologist...and he's an overall great guy!
It also should be mentioned that standards rose again when John Middendorf & Eric Rasmussen climbed some MAJOR grade VI stuff on Mt. of the Sun, Isaac, Abraham, Lady Mt. & Twin Brothers formations. A lot of amazing stuff has been done recently, but that's not quite history yet.
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dmckj
Jan 19, 2005, 3:08 PM
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Well...all I can add is that I admire that Jones guy a heck of a lot.
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dangle
Jan 25, 2005, 8:50 PM
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Well I don't know if its at my end but there have been some technical difficulties.
It looks like the mandate consists of one vote.
The Jonesephiles are interesting though. Scott told me he met Dave in October '83. Back then he still resented the way that friends eliminated a lot of the runouts that he had been forced to do making the first ascents. Read the story again. Its Scott alright. Nice cover though, teenage car and Vermin.
Checking the article it does indeed list the year 1980, but began the pattern by post dating Cerberus and Monkeyfinger and it was enhanced as time passed. The Bjornstad guidebook even lists a date along with the year 1978. It also contains a "history" that credits Dave with being one of the chief pioneers of the late seventies. Entirely false.
The irony is that if Dave had been honest with when and how he put routes up he would be greatly more admired.
On "another network" Brian Smoot floated the rumor that Dave led most of the first ascent. I had already soloed as far as the second ladder. Dave pushed that pitch a bit farther same as the last 2 or 3 bolts at the end, but the only full pitch he pioneered was to Earth Orbit. I won't dispute that Dave has onsighted 5.10, but that pitch has been done as a 5.10 and Dave aided it entirely. My point about the photos debunking the 1978 claim will also extend to support my assertions about the leading.
I suppose that since Scott achieved a certain hero status (for the wrong reasons I might add) a denial was called for.
Still it would be a far better show of good sportsmanship for Dave to properly credit Scott for the role he "mistakenly" usurped.
Any more votes out there?
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rockprodigy
Jan 25, 2005, 9:29 PM
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Ahh, I'm starting to realize why nobody has compiled a comprehensive history of zion climbing. Too bad we, as climbers, have let it go so long now that we will never be able to get all sides of the stories.
I'd be interested in the Iron Messiah tale, just because I've always wondered how you rope soloed all those chimneys...must have been sketchy.
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iamthewallress
Jan 25, 2005, 9:37 PM
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I just read the rest of the thread. I vote Moon Patrol.
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epic_ed
Jan 25, 2005, 9:43 PM
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Ron -- give it a few more days. No one has been online in nearly two weeks due to the server issues. I'll change my vote to Moon Patrol, too.
Ed
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sarcat
Jan 25, 2005, 9:51 PM
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I vote for Moon Patrol also.
Great reads BTW.
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epic_ed
Jan 25, 2005, 9:53 PM
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Ron -- give it a few more days. No one has been online in nearly two weeks due to the server issues. I'll change my vote to Moon Patrol, too.
Ed
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dangle
Jan 25, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Looks like rockprodigy is outvoted, but I'll give him a short response before I start work on "The Tale of Change, MPfa".
On IM after a previous attempt to within 150m of the top I third classed one of the chimney pitches and some of the easier stuff below (using a different start) and had two ropes fixed which I used as a toprope so that I was on the large sloping ledge below the final big dihedral in less than two hours on 4/9/88. The true summit was reached shortly after 14:00, but the descent which still required drilling was complicated by my dropping my figure eight on the first rap. With only modified Ds it took til dark.
Lesson: Carry a few ovals.
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arsenalcrater
Jan 26, 2005, 1:29 AM
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Wow! This is a great thread! The John Middendorf slide show was classic. Hey John, are you out there? Are you still guiding the Canyon? As for the history of Zion, great stuff!!! Keep it flowin'!!!
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dangle
Jan 26, 2005, 5:44 AM
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Well, its late and after a superlative repast I'm already finishing my fourth glass of cabernet so I beg the reader's latitude. The letters are swimming as I should be, or at least having a jacuzzi. But you see THAT"S the problem. The extremes of environments that among other desert climbs were embodied by Moon Patrol have wimped me out. They've sold me on the folly of hanging tough.
Ofcourse I'll TELL people that seige climbing allows me to take my time and do a good job, but we all know what its like to face 14 or more hours of cold darkness at a lumpy bivy when there are creature comforts to be had by just scampering down a rope. A minor degree of financial security and the attendant trappings closed the deal.
I have become somewhat self-domesticated.
But before turning 30 in '84 I bought my first place located closer to Zion. I guess that the big Navaho walls had a certain mystic regency among the many sandstone areas where I have been fortunate to have explored. In time the value of practical considerations would outweigh vague notions of heroics (hey its the wine talking) but still in my prime I felt the first solo of the Leaning Wall wasn't enough by one of the two routes I'd already put up. No no! It had to be a new line and one push.
OK OK I fixed 90m of rope first. So much for heroics.
I also had a pretty good notion of start and finish thanks to my previous spring's sojourn with the Busman of the Desert, Mike Strassman.
This was before he became famous for the POV videotape of his demise and subsequent resurrection in a snowslide suspiciously self-started.
Watch it Mike. I have the photos from Organasm and can blackmail you too.
Anyway such was my vision that I had not realized that what I was doing was "capsule" style. Silly me. I thought it was just cheating.
So off I go on my adventure in early October with generous provisions for 3 or 4 days. It would be among my twenty or thirty most rewarding solos along with another completed before the month ended.
Now for those that were looking for beta, well you're SOL. That guy was at least right about one thing. Reading glasses.
Yeah I'm on The Big Glisade. But Alzheimers isn't so bad really. You get to meet new people every day. (and forget others...)
But even if I could remember every placement of every aid climb like I could until about '78 such a litany wouldn't be worthy of the effort.
For me such adventures are sought out for their experiential content. In living on the wall I would become attuned to its rhythms. Still in the lingering effects of summer the southwestern orientation of the face had chilly mornings but after baking in the afternoon ambient temperatures could easily top triple digits. The first day I found refuge from the heat in the shade of the bivy ledge hidden by a pillar. The last few hours of light were shaded by the west rim and proved comfortable to resume climbing.
This tactic proved so agreeable that, having enough rope to fix (3) I repeated it the following day and with provisions appearing bountiful yet again.
Well if you get your foot in the door far enough you might as well go in. Day four saw me packin' it up and draggin' it up. That's when momma plaid me for a sucker, and damned if I wasn't too.
It was so easy to suck me in. All it took was a little milder weather. That night on a ledge high on the wall the front came through and by 2:00AM I moved my water inside my flimsy bag to keep it from freezing and bursting. Were it not for the stove I brought the next morning's light would have seen me retreating but the top was close and much of the remaining ground familiar.
Sucker, sucker, sucker!
Topping out I realized that it was too late to complete the descent but I split the gear into two loads and headed towards the first rappel with load one. I refer to it as such because I wasn't thinking ahead and considering all the possibilities. As I descended the clouds moved in but I crossed the exposed slab at the bottom of the scramble.
As I began to return for the second load my potential error dawned on me. The second load contained the ropes I should have fixed across the slab already.
The skies darkened more and I began to race. If I didn't get my second load across the slab to where I left my food, water and bivy gear before it rained....
After twenty desperate minutes I made it by seconds. Big droplets began to slap into the slab as I was halfway across gasping with pulse pounding. They were the start of what would leave the slab a deathtrap for days.
The bivy that night after the first rap was wet and uncomfortable.
But it could have been much much worse.
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dangle
Jan 26, 2005, 1:54 PM
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Jeez! Plaid???
I must've put on a kilt for that fifth glass.
Now I remember why that guy called Pey fictitious. Apparently Jones also claimed a FA of the route Mark and I put up, Catharsis, in the same guidebook. Its not surprising that our contribution to the Fang Wall (AKA Lovelace) was ignored as well. I didn't do much but I put up the pitch that turned back Jones on his solo attempt when Mark and I recovered his gear and ropes for him. When he "completed" the route he went less than a ropelength higher.
Well besides the Alzheimer's I mentioned there's also Waldheimer's (inability to remember your Nazi past) and Jonesheimer's (inability to recall FA details).
The cure is apparently still in the research phase.
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dmckj
Jan 27, 2005, 4:21 PM
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Although I'm not inclined to lower myself, Mr. Olevsky's willingness to slander others in open forums deserves some sort of rebuttal because the poison of his comments should not pose as 'history'.
First, other than the 1984 article in Climbing I have never provided anything other than copies of my original topos for anyone's guide, period. I never promoted my routes. I have always simply provided topos to people who asked. All the topos I submitted were original with correct first ascent dates and personnel. No guidebook author ever ran copy by me for final proof. Any errors in their guides are the fault of the authors. Mr. Olevsky's assertion that I falsified history is nothing more than pathetic tripe. The only thing that matters is the truth, something Mr. O appears to have a hard time with by his own admission. He is the one who has demeaned Zion climbing history by consistently making up stories about who he did the first ascent of Spaceshot with. That's his cross to bear (anyone catch the irony in that one?), not mine.
Second, Mr. O is only as credible as his arguments. Let's review a few, shall we? As this thread earlier pointed out, Ron got it WRONG about the first ascent date claimed in the 84 Climbing article, and he got it WRONG about the article 'BG Goes to Zion'. I should know, as I wrote the article. As this thread earlier noted, this was based on a real event with John Sherman and I. Apparently, Mr. O can't grasp the fact that it was a put down of pretentious climbers in general. Now, gentle thread reader, why might that be?
Moving on, let's take his most recent comments, on 'Lovelace' or 'The Fang Wall' as it is also known. I put most of that route up with Mark Pey. Mark, in his finest moments, was an average climber, but he was a friend of mine, so I dragged him up a bunch of routes, most of which were over his head. We worked our way up Lovelace, and then Mark, in fairly classic form, crapped out on me. He wanted a day off. I didn't, and went up and soloed and fixed one more full pitch, the one that takes you to the base of the chimney. Mark had sworn to me he would be ready to climb the next day. By chance, a major snowstorm blew in the next day. Being one of those types of people who actually works for a living, that day was the last I could climb because I had to go back to work. So I went to Mark and said, 'O.K., I have to leave tomorrow so we have two options: 1) pull all the gear right now in the bad weather, or 2) leave the gear up, allowing you to finish the route'. I thought I was being gracious to offer to Mark to finish the route without me. Instead, Mark whined about his options as if he were put upon. I said 'Fine, let's go get the gear right now'. Being a veteran of climbing under the worst of winter conditions in alpine settings for many years the thought of simply cleaning gear didn't particularly bother me. But it bothered Mark. So Mark grudgingly said he would work the route in my absence. Now...imagine this. Mark invites Mr. O to finish the route. They have ropes fixed ALL THE WAY TO WITHIN ONE AND A HALF PITCHES FROM THE TOP. So Mark and Mr. O ascend all the fixed ropes and manage to climb only ONE short pitch in their 'effort', leaving the last pitch unclimbed. Mr. O did an admirable job in putting up the chimney pitch and putting in drilled angles on lead. Contrary to what he says, I gave him FULL credit on my original topo for putting up that pitch (look it up). Ultimately, I had to reclimb the entire route and bagged the first ascent with Gary Gray. Although Mr. O deserves credit for putting up that pitch, it is a sad commentary to their abilities that he and Mark didn't finish it. And that is a fact. Mr. O didn't 'retrieve' my gear for me. He failed at completing a route I graciously allowed him to go up on and finish.
And speaking of Zion history, I would suggest asking Mr. O some questions about the following......
What was the nature of the reported rappel previewing and anchor fixing on Prodigal Son?
Do the readers know that Prodigal Son is really a variation on the 'rearranged' line of Archangel? Why doesn't Ron talk about that earlier route?
Could Ron describe for thread readers the visionary nature and boldness of the first ascent of 'Crimes Against Nature'? It would be a fascinating story to hear in his own words, perhaps described move by move.
Could Ron explain why he told me a route had already been completed by the Smoots in the Shuntavi Butte area when, in fact, it hadn't? Or was that just another 'prevarication'? John Middendorff and I subsequently did that climb (Mouse Turds in the Oven).
Finally, when I did the first ascent of Spaceshot with Ron he told me that someone had previously asked him whether it had already been climbed. He told me that he 'prevaricated', and had said yes it had been. It hadn't been.
Does anyone see a pattern here?
Finally, the matter of the slander against the owner of the climbing shop in Springdale. For the record, the owner is a GREAT guy, and I hope any and all of you will support his store in Springdale. He deserves the support.
Sincerely
David Jones
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tenesmus
Jan 27, 2005, 4:47 PM
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Dang.
Take that.
This is really fun - you guys need to keep it going. I think what makes History cool is the personalities. Ya'll got personality.
Its like reading that just about everyone who ever worked with John Wesley Powell said he was a total jerk and an embellisher(sp?). Yet, we all remember him.
What did you say about rope soloing the chimneys on Iron Messaih? I need to hear more about that.
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dangle
Jan 27, 2005, 6:13 PM
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Wow!
Dave I knew it was you but figured I'd play along.
So, you got yourself a shotgun! Well congratulations. Looks like one of those single shot break open ten gauges if I'm not mistaken. Must have a pretty short barrel to wing so many birds at once.
Well I still work a little too and have business to take care of at OR, but I'll give this the two seconds it deserves.
I first logged on using the third person to flush out someone who was posing as a third party to float a cover story for a hate crime. Using a contraction of Drilled Angle I wasn't trying hard to hide and even took the opportunity to mock myself by exagerating the mythology.
I never said anything about what a heck of a guy I was. Really Dave! That is so pitiful!
I don't think that condemnation of lies by guidebook authors constitutes slander especially when the person it appears to benefit doesn't display the sense of honor to give credit where credit is due. What have you done to set the record straight on being credited as a pioneer of the late seventies? I met you on 12/6/79 and you wanted to know about Zion walls.
You must have had a huge three weeks there sport.
What about Catharsis. Did you set the record straight on that or were you happy to let that one slide your way too. I'm happy to say that Ammon agrees with me and Bird and Erikson and so many others that true free climbers don't use sling belays. No doubt you disagree but even so you didn't free it or put it up.
As for my continual lies about Space Shot, well there was only one. I copped to it first. And it came from the very list from Climbing that you cite as evidence! What were your vanity plates again?
A sad commentary on my abilities?
Hey YOU don't need to say it. I say it myself repeatedly. For me one of life's great jokes is that so many climbers treat me like some superclimber when my skills are so pedestrian. I'm weak. I'm lazy. But I have an eye for a good line and in the unlikely event I succeed on it then it will probably go at a reasonable grade and WHAMMO instant trade route.
Why so many truly great climbers have tied onto a rope with me and continue to do so is beyond my explanation but not my appreciation.
I'm talking about the kind of superclimbers only one of us is pretending to be.
As for the day you speak so knowingly of (where were you again) after more than a week of storms the approach was complicated by all the snow yet clutzy me and Mark managed to recover your gear for you and push the line a bit. Each of the first three drilled angles in the back-and-foot chimney took an agonizingly long effort, but of course now one just goes
clip.
Then there was the epic of recrossing the creek swollen with the flood of snowmelt and all your gear. No doubt a person with your skills would have merely floated across using a balloon filled with all the hot air he could spout.
There's your sad freakin commentary.
And Prodigal Sun (not Son):
I have tried to get people to understand how this route evolved but nobody seems very interested. They just want to tick it off their list. Well I hope this makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.
The following is the TRUE STORY of Prodigal Sun.
I built an enormous scaffolding and used multiple compressors and drills along with many chisels to entirely craft the route from blank rock. My work force was serviced by prostitutes from a Nevada brothel in a trailer that was held nearby using a crane. I managed to distract the park service from this effort the entire time by deliberately backing up a toilet in the visitor center.
As for Shuntavi. I don't know what you're smoking but I only smoke the good stuff man. The only routes I know of are Mark's and Bill's. WTF are you talking about?
And the worst for last. If this owner is such a great guy then maybe HE would care to explain why he stated for the record that having a sign with swastikas on his property facing the home of a jew was his "first constitutional right".
I say boycott Zion Rock and Mountain Guides.
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dangle
Jan 27, 2005, 9:38 PM
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Hey Tennis Mouse, you haven't been in Dave's oven have you?
There's a local climber I'm friends with, Justin Powell.
He's a good sort and, yes, he's related.
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ammon
Jan 27, 2005, 10:25 PM
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Alright!!!!
Everyone, lower your weapons!!!
Shake hands……
and just walk away.
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tenesmus
Jan 27, 2005, 10:25 PM
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In reply to: Hey Tennis Mouse, you haven't been in Dave's oven have you? There's a local climber I'm friends with, Justin Powell. He's a good sort and, yes, he's related.
huh? dave's oven? Know lots of Justin's, but not necessarily this one. Loads of climbers in this town. I'm just another anonymous slc climber.
I just checked out that Middledorf slideshow and its super fun. This slide was particularly interesting: http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/SlideWeb/slides/130.html
I used to guide in the grand canyon (hence the name Tenesmus)and know of several killer walls there that are extremely interesting to me. Does anyone know about the safety of gear in Vishnu Schist? I'd heard its scary, but didn't know of anyone else doing stuff there.
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dangle
Jan 28, 2005, 2:28 AM
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Tenesmus, don't understand the reference.
Ammon, thanks for the PM but they've been killing off the compliant, the timid or the merely poor fighters among my people for more than five thousand years. Just what do you think that's going to leave?
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epic_ed
Jan 28, 2005, 3:36 AM
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Tenesmus = "the constant feeling of the need to empty the bowel, accompanied by pain, cramping, and involuntary straining efforts."
You'd enjoy wall climbing, too, if you haven't ventured that far into this game.
Ed
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dangle
Jan 28, 2005, 3:56 AM
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Uhg! Don't drink the water.
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dangle
Jan 28, 2005, 6:38 AM
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Uh oh. Two hours, a hundred views and no posts. Looks like we scared 'em off.
OK make it a vote for next week's account.
Sunlight
T-bird
Iron Messiah
another tirade
other
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lambone
Jan 28, 2005, 7:04 AM
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uhhh...I just wan't to say for the record...that I have nothing to do with this recent shoot out.
dangle, I think your stories are great...wether they are true or not.
cheers
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mr_dirt
Jan 28, 2005, 7:12 AM
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Hi, I got to say this is a great thread! I haven’t heard some of these names since I lived in Kanab tending sheep and driving a bus between Zion from Vegas. I cant believe all this was going on while I was in the area, neat. Hope I don’t kill this thing.
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epic_ed
Jan 28, 2005, 4:14 PM
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My vote is for another tirade. Mix in a nut-kicking contest, too.
Actually, Iron Messiah would be the next logical progression since we had a couple of requests for that last week.
Ed
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bandycoot
Jan 28, 2005, 4:44 PM
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What a great thread... :lol: The stories are very entertaining as is the flamefest. It's got the best of both worlds!
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dmckj
Jan 28, 2005, 5:03 PM
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As many of you are reading this thread for some interesting tales, I'll throw in one....
This falls into the category of 'stupid climber tricks'.
We've all heard of incredibly stupid tourists falling off the waterfalls in Zion....right?....read on....
Several years ago I invited my good friends from Washington state, Phil (father) and Jon (son) Gleason to come visit Zion. I had a few good routes picked out...
My first goal was to knock off a another new line on the Watchman. About half way up the cliff, right of center, is an unmatched splitter that had been beckoning me for years. So up we went. In my typical I-prefer-to-fix-high-give-the-route-a-chance-get-the-adrenalin-rush-of-going-for-it-and-be-back-drinking-beers-at-night-rather-than-bivy style, we fixed several pitches with the intent of simply pushing off and going for the top. As we descended, several peregrines darted in and out of the cliffs above us....
We took a rest day the next day and wandered into the visitor's center where....to my shock and feelings of ultimate stupidity....I saw the BIG information board with the statement that the Watchman was CLOSED to climbing for peregrine nesting. Geez.... What to do now? Go for it, or bail. Sheepishly, we went up and pulled out ropes. (aside: In part this was because a few years before Conrad Anker and I had set off fireworks from the midway ledge bivy on the first complete ascent of 'The Vigil'. As it turns out, the tourists in the campgrounds thought we were signaling for a rescue, as did the numbnuts in the Park, until finally Brad Quinn told them it was 'O.K.'. Upon our descent we found out about the commotion and did the honorable thing: turned ourselves in to the Park. Instead of rewarding our honesty they threw the ticket book at us and we each paid about $100 plus worth of fines -- hence the name I gave to VIOLATION LEDGE on The Vigil).
Anway, because of the Peregrine incident I had the perfect name for the route-to-be on the Watchman.....'Hue and Cry'. I later completed that route with Glen Rink (aka one of the banditos) from Flagstaff.
Back to the storyline....... So now the Gleasons and I were without a route. Per chance we found a good line on the right side of Red Arch Mountain. All free but about 5 feet on the first ascent we named it 'Bits and Pieces'. Brad Quinn freed those remaining 5 feet on the 2nd ascent. Good route, and virtually unknown.
Resting up from our little adventure, I went off alone to my favorite swimming hole, maybe hoping to run into a few nubile cuties along the way (it happens!). Found the swimming hole, but, alas, no cuties. After soaking for a while in the refreshingly cool waters I decided I had had enough, being too A-type to really hang loose for too long. Now this particular swimming hole is acesssed by a steep move up or down some shaley beds just above the pool. Going up, I noticed the beds were really deteriorating from repeated access. I put my sandal up on the lip of these beds and recall thinking 'you know, this lip might just break at some point'. But that was O.K. because it would send me splashing back into the pool. So I mantled up and, sure enough, the lip under my foot failed and sent me falling back into the pool. As I fell I was half-chuckling at myself, but wasn't concerned because at worst I would just go for a second bath. I wish!! Instead, by virtue of the small arc of my fall I landed on the OUTER lip of the swimming hole which was a slimey slippery algae coated slope. The problem was that this slope points AWAY from the swimming hole down at.......A WATERFALL. Upon landing, I still didn't 'get it', but noticed I started to imperceptibly slide the WRONG WAY. Once I realized what was going on I lurched out for something to hold onto but the slope was smooth as a baby's ass. It then hit me that I was GOING TO GO OVER THE WATERFALL! This bothered me just a tad. Thankfully, as I went over the lip I had the presence of mind to swing my feet around to see where the hell I was going to land. Luckily for me, there was a pool at the base of the waterfall (about 25 vertical feet), and as I went into the vertical drop I pushed off ever so gently so as to land squarely in it. As I flew through space I thought 'I did it!'. Well, almost. in the last split second of my descent my head hit HARD on a rock behind me. Ouch!
Incredibly, I landed feet up in the pool, hitting the sand bottom and remaining standing. But I didn't have a clue as to where I was. I knew I had fallen and hit my head, but that was it. I put my hand to my head, felt an open wound, and the profuse amount of blood coming out of it. But I didn't know where to go. I had enough of a concussion that I had lost sense (not that I had that much to begin with). All I needed to do was walk downstream about 3 minutes, but in my dazed state I literally started climbing the steep side walls to get out of the canyon. Confused! I finally staggered onto the road and about 3 cars slammed on there brakes when they saw me, like I was some creature from the black lagoon. A guy got out of his car and asked 'are you O.K.?', to which I responded 'well...yeah, I think so..why?'. I then looked down at my T-shirt to see that it was soaked with blood. Hmmm, I thought, this isn't good.
Anyway, they took me to the local clinic, and then by ambulance to the hospital in St. George. I recall explaining what had happened and pleadingly hoping the cute nurse wouldn't concluded I was another-stupid-tourist-who-fell-off-a-waterfall. Didn't work, she clearly put me into the loser-who-deserves-it category. Bummer.
So, after my CAT scan in St. George, my buddies came down and picked me up. Phil Gleason (the one of Yosemite photo fame climbing the offwidth '96D' or whatever it is) is a nurse, and this was lucky for me because the doctors said I had to be woken up several times a night to be sure I wasn't going to go into a bleeding induced coma or further trauma. I didn't.
But, hey, I was in Zion to climb, not fall off waterfalls. On my only recovery day the Gleasons went off to climb Shunes Buttress. Meanwhile, the next day I bumped into yet another guy from Washington and recruited him to put up the first ascent of 'Fourplay', a 5-star crack along the north wall of the Grotto. I led the first pitch and felt NAUSEATED. Started leading the second pitch and felt even more nausea. Funny thing about them head wounds! Geoff Scherer finished the second pitch.
Still feeling 'weird' I nevertheless didn't want to waste any more time. Geoff and I started up 'Rites of Passage' a new line just left of Shune's. It is an imposing and difficult line, but I was climbing really well at the time. Feeling spaced out most of the way, we nevertheless persevered. Most of the time I felt like I was drugged, and at times thought to myself 'what the f%&k are you doing up here with a concussion you idiot!!!'. After working through some cruxy sections I found myself face-to-face on the lead with a long run-out face on friable edges. With some hooks I managed to drill about 3-4 bolts in row on lead and then lower down and free-climb through each section. Exhausted (mentally and physically as we were going for the top and were running out of time), I finally got to a small dish ledge with NO good pro for a belay. I slapped a big friend in at my feet (essentially worthless), stood up, and drilled one last bolt for the belay. We were in a hurry, and I had no energy or time for another bolt. Geoff came to the ledge. His turn to lead. I admonished him 'Geoff, whatever you do, don't fall, because I've only got one bolt in and this piece at my feet is bogus'. As luck would have it, the start off of the next pitch was a 25 foot diagonal up to the right with NO PRO and very steep. It was obviously only about 5.8 at most, but airy and scary and, well....in Zion.
Geoff lead off from the belay, slowly, steadily, and got most of the way across the face to the 'thank God' cracks. Then, it happened. A hold broke and he wasn't stable enough to hang on and took a screaming WHIPPER pendulum across the entire face and ending up below me about 20 feet from the belay. I was FREAKED!! He fell directly onto the belay. One bolt between us and two dead climbers.
Geoff was badly shaken and I was the walking wounded. Shit! With the reality of 'now or never' I took over the lead. It is amazing how when one has to do something it provides lots of energy and focus. The pitch was fairly long and sustained, but I recall it flowed as if I had done it before. This was only because i HAD TO do it. Several unusual and spectacular pitches later we topped out and rappeled Shunes.
Before that, I had never really thought of myself as a crazy, or maybe crazed, climber. Looking back, maybe the only reason we got up that route was because of my head injury and not in spite of it.
End of Tale.
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flamer
Jan 28, 2005, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: Several years ago I invited my good friends from Washington state, Phil (father) and Jon (son) Gleason to come visit Zion.
Phil and Jon are both very good friends of mine. They have talked about this trip....but being the humble guys they are didn't include all the you details...it's cool to hear your tale. I'll have to give them a call...and tell them to check this out. I remember Jon telling me about some burly wide cracks you guys climbed??
Oh and the picture of Phil you're talking about is the route 10:96 and it was taken by Galen Rowell. I always get a big kick out of it...it seems to turn up every few years in a mag. and the best part is....Phil is falling!!! He catch's all kinds of hell for it..."Hey Phil, saw that full page pic. of you in climbing, too bad you were falling!!".
A side note on that climb, Phil was actually trying for the first ascent when that photo was taken....he then made the mistake of telling a prolific Yose. climber about it...who then "stole" the route from him...anybody know who that guy was????
josh
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epic_ed
Jan 28, 2005, 7:11 PM
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Nice bit of info, Dave. It would be great if I had some orientation about where these routes are actually located in Zion. I'll have to spend some time with the topo book next time I'm up there.
Flamer -- I guessing the Fish?
Ed
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dmckj
Jan 28, 2005, 7:37 PM
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Route locations???
Easy...
Bits and Pieces: Start at right base of Red Arch Mountain. Rap anchors are all fixed and the descent is much easier than Shunes. Find topo in Park book...if not there...get in touch with me.
The Vigil: Left third of the Watchman, starting up beautiful white faces. See the recent photo spread on this in Climbing from a little over a year ago. Outstanding free route. One of the best. Rappel route.
Hue and Cry: Right-center of Watchman, maybe 100 yards to right from Silmaril start. Look for outrageous splitter (visible from the Mean Bean) about mid-cliff. This is a 155 foot 5.11a thin hands crack. Descend back side.
Rites of Passage: Start about 200 feet left of Shune's at vertical right-facing shallow corners with wide cracks right off deck (Biggish pine tree just below base). Don't let the wide cracks freak you, as the climbing is outstanding. Descend Shunes.
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iamthewallress
Jan 28, 2005, 7:46 PM
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Bridwell...Do I win a beer? :wink:
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flamer
Jan 28, 2005, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: Bridwell...Do I win a beer? :wink:
That's the guy! Did you look it up???
I'll be in the valley this spring for a quick week...you can collect your beer then.
josh
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dmckj
Jan 28, 2005, 8:18 PM
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Great to hear of the history of Phil Gleason. He is a great guy. I remember that photo of him in the offwidth, and when I actually met 'the guy in the photo' I felt I was in the presence of greatness (hee hee, then I got to know him). In my book, that may be the best single Yosemite climbing photo ever. I mean you can taste the suffering...
Off-theme, if you talk to Phil get him to recount the tale of when we climbed the North Ridge of Slesse in a full-on white-out snowstorm for the last 5 pitches. Had a memorable bivy at the base of the descent (and, no I don't mean memorable in that sense...after all I'm still a virgin and Phil is a married man...and come to think of it, so am I!).
ZION AID CLIMBING (o.k. with that I've kept this thread pertinent)
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flamer
Jan 28, 2005, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: Off-theme, if you talk to Phil get him to recount the tale of when we climbed the North Ridge of Slesse in a full-on white-out snowstorm for the last 5 pitches. Had a memorable bivy at the base of the descent (and, no I don't mean memorable in that sense...after all I'm still a virgin and Phil is a married man...and come to think of it, so am I!).
Will do!! One more quick side note.....Phil and Jon are the brother and nephew of The late great Paul Gleason. Paul was the subject of John Long's recent article in climbing titled "The Real Deal"....The Gleason's are an amazing family climbing and otherwise. If you got plucked off something in the valley last year(or do this year) chance's are very good that Jon was/will be the guy getting lowered in to save your sorry ass!
Ok back on topic......ZION!!!!!!!
josh
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dmckj
Jan 28, 2005, 8:29 PM
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Hey...how did you know my ass was 'sorry'. Oh, yeah, Phil must have told you..
truth hurts!
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iamthewallress
Jan 28, 2005, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Bridwell...Do I win a beer? :wink: That's the guy! Did you look it up???
Sadly...no. Sometimes at night on trips when the only diversion around is the guidebook we play, "Who was the FA?" or "Which formation is this route on?" Good times. I'm getting ready for the Yosemite edition of Win Ben Stein's Money.
I'll look for you in the spring!
And to the brawling duo...I'm enjoying your stories. If I'm not commenting, it's that I'm just enjoying the reads.
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rockprodigy
Jan 28, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Could someone tell me the story behind the "Escher Memorial Crack" on Golden Years.
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rockprodigy
Jan 28, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Could someone tell me the story behind the "Escher Memorial Crack" on Golden Years.
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rockprodigy
Jan 28, 2005, 8:50 PM
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Could someone tell me the story behind the "Escher Memorial Crack" on Golden Years.
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rockprodigy
Jan 28, 2005, 8:51 PM
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Could someone tell me the story behind the "Escher Memorial Crack" on Golden Years.
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rockprodigy
Jan 28, 2005, 8:54 PM
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Could someone tell me the story behind the "Escher Memorial Crack" on Golden Years.
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dmckj
Jan 28, 2005, 9:37 PM
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Escher memorial crack on Golden Years.....
From the belay below it, looking up at that curving crack pitch gave me a bizarre sense of a twisted 3-D. It just didn't look 'right' somehow, like something out of an M.C. Escher pen sketch. Hence the name.....
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rockprodigy
Jan 28, 2005, 10:31 PM
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Aha...that's a much better story than I hypothesized. I figured it was a memorial to a fallen comrade...the true story is much happier.
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dangle
Jan 28, 2005, 10:37 PM
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Ah yes, Zion aid.
Since there is little dispute at this point that even "clean" climbing causes degradation what can we agree on about the preservation of such routes for future generations? This is a history thread, but history is our only guide.
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the_dude
Jan 29, 2005, 7:15 AM
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I'd like to hear a little about Archangel. I've seen the vague picture of it in the bjornstad guide. How many ascents has that route even seen? To me it sounds like a cool line up the wall.
cheers
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dmckj
Jan 29, 2005, 5:57 PM
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Dangle posits a conflicted question: How does one preserve the popular routes?
Answer: One doesn't.
I do a lot of caving, and caves are, for the most part, a lot more fragile than climbs. How do you preserve caves??? You don't tell anyone about them. That keeps people out. The cave is preserved. Simple stuff, this.
If one 'constructs' or 'dumbs down' (Prodial Son being case-in-point) a route to make it accessible to the masses....well, what the heck do you expect? The masses will come. One reaches the ridiculous point where, as in Vietnam, 'we had to destroy the route to save it'. Sure, bolt ladders protect cracks, but then what's the point of climbing?
Hard routes, ones that aren't dumbed down, protect themselves. For example, Empty Pages on Angels Landing or Wages of Sin on the Forbidden Wall are not prone to being destroyed because most folks are rightfully afraid of going up on them. That's great!
No one is 'owed' the right to do a climb, nor to have the climb dumbed-down to their level. This promotes stupid climbing and gives many folks the delusion that they are big-wall capable when, in fact, they really aren't. At least not in Zion.
This point of view isn't, as is commonly implied, elitist. To quote Bob Dylan...'things are what they are, and ain't what they ain't'. Let's leave what is the way it is and minimize the efforts to destroy a route to 'save it'.
Some dumbed-down routes are fine. (God knows we have enough sport climbs of this nature.) But some is more than enough. The challenge of the remaining routes serves as their own best protection.
D
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rocknroll
Jan 30, 2005, 3:13 AM
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Ron Olevesky and Dave Jones on the same forum? Wow! It's been 21 years since I, known as Devo in the 1982 Climbing Magazine Zion article by Gary Gray, last saw Ron Olevesky and Dave Jones in the same campsite. I had come up from Tucson with Dave and quickly found Ron and hung out with him for a few days. At that time, Ron lived in a cinder-block bunker in Washington whose only windows were slits big enough to stick a rifle out, And Ron had plenty of rifles, handguns, dynamite and other tools of the trade of a self-proclaimed survivalist. After tiring of Ron's incessant babbling (he can speak intelligently on just about any subject) I asked him to drive me to Zion to meet Dave. That was like pulling teeth as he bantered me and called me names for not offering to pay for gas. We got almost to Springdale and Ron pulled up onto the Rockville bench, pulled his portable TV out and declared we weren't going any further that night. I think we might have done Organasm the following day. We went looking for Jonesy in the Park and saw him climbing The Fang. Ron produced a .45 from the glovebox and aimed it directly at Dave leading a pitch. His fingers quivered as he tightened them around the trigger. "Ron!" I yelled, "No!" Ron dropped the gun with a sigh of frustration. "I had my eyes on that line!" Ron whined and slumped into the car, He stuffed himself a bowl of weed and he wouldn't even share; he wanted me to pay for that, too. Later that night we went to the campground to look for Jonesy.
As Ron entered the campsite, Jonesy made it clear to Ron that he was not welcomed. I never really knew what their beef was, but I guessed it had to do more with Ron's attention getting behaivior than a single event. Dave made it clear to me that if I was going to hang out with Ron, I would not be welcomed in the campsite either. I quickly grapped my gear from Ron's Bronco and huddled next to the fire. "Well, Ron..." asked Jonsey, "are you leaving.'
"This is federal property and I have every right to be here." countered Ron
"It may be federal property Ron, but I rented it from the government for the night so I am telling you to leave!"
"I'm not going."Ron said, "I have a fiscal matter to discuss with you."
"Do I have to call the ranger, Offenseky?" asked Dave.
"Remeber last winter when you called me collect to see what the skiing conditions were like at Brianhead?"
'Yeah. What about it--No, you aren't asking me to pay you back for that call, are you? How much could it be a couple of bucks?" Dave asked.
Ron reaches into his breast pocket and whips out his phone bill. "It was exactly five dollars and twenty-eight cents. See?"
"No. No, Ron. I'm not paying your phone bill, I'm not even talking to you." Dave became heated, a rarety for this calm and cool climber. "Get out of this campsite! George, go get the Ranger." Dave began to walk towards Ron.
"Now, Dave...you better stop right there. Are you telling me you will not pay this bill?'
Dave started yelling so loudly the echo bounced off the Watchmen AND the West Temple. " I'M NOT PAYING FOR THE CALL!!!!! NOW GET THE F___ OUT OF HERE BEFORE I HAVE YOU ARRESTED."
And Ron, the bane of the Park Service Law Enforcement in Zion, hopped in his Bronco and drove away.
The next day, Dave and I went to climb Headache crack up by the tunnels. As we climbed a Washington County Sheriff cruiser parked in the pullout and watched us. When we arrived back at the cars it was very evident he wanted to talk to Dave.
"Dave Jones? You are bering served a civil suit on behalf of Mr. Ronald Olevsky and are expected to appear in coutrt at 9am on Wednesday."
"What?' Dave grabbed the summons and thumbed through the pages. "It's for the phone call!"
Will Ron win the suit? Will he take Justice into his own hands? Or will Dave counter sue for emotional turmoil? Stay Tuned to this thread as Devo and Ron go to climb Timbertop Mesa during the court date.
(You can publish those pictures of Organasm now Ron)
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dmckj
Jan 30, 2005, 3:49 AM
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Devo.....how the hell are you??? Long time no see. Last time we climbed was Running Sacred??? Glad to see you're still kicking!
Your story line is pretty good, pretty close to the truth, but there are a few twists....
I wasn't pissed off at Ron at all (or not yet anyway). It was my buddy George Allen who was pissed off at you because he said you owed him money. So George whines to me about you and I say 'I don't care, you guys settle it yourselves', so he then directly whines at you. Ron arrives and finds out, apparently confused, that you have been hassled for money. Ron, in his infinite wisdom, presumes it is me doing the hassling (gee, wrong again!), and asks me to pay him for a $3.25 collect phone call. Yeah, I made the collect call (he told me to), and the next day he and I drove in my truck to Brian Head to go skiiing, the expenses for which he didn't pay a penny, nor did I ask. So much for being a nice guy. Won't happen again.
Anway, Ron is upset that you are being hassled for money (by George) and comes storming up to me asking for his $3.25 (this really is for real gentle thread readers, I couldn't make something this stupid up). How I got in the middle of it is still an enigma. Sick and tired of Ron's perpetual bullshit I offered to pay him IF HE SHOWED ME THE FRIGGIN RECEIPT. Then I told him to get his ass out of our campsite. Next thing you know Ron is dragging me into court saying he was deceived into accepting my collect phone call because he thought I was Warren Harding, which you, Devo, and my good friend George Allen, Marcus, etc, etc, all saw go down in person.
The judge told me I could file a lawsuit against Olvesky for frivolous prosecution, but I declined. Next time I won't decline.
Would the thread readers like to hear Dangle's explanation of how that all went down??
Now THAT is interesting history. No doubt Dangle will be hush on this one, eh Dangle?
Even after all this time I would forgive the guy if he offered a sincere apology and sent back the check. (Yes, gentle thread reader, he convinced the judge that I conned him....hard to imagine isn't it -- of course it didn't hurt that he lived in Washington County). That would be all it would take and I would at least consider that the guy has a shred of dignity left.
Poll: How many thread readers think that Ron should fess up and pay up and make kissy kissy and bury the hatchet??
Can't wait to see the response to this one!
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bsmoot
Jan 30, 2005, 6:31 AM
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I don't know about the kissy kissy, but I DO think he should pay the $3.25 plus court costs.
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dmckj
Jan 30, 2005, 7:34 AM
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Call me selfish....but I think there should be a little gratuitous sex out of this....
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rocknroll
Jan 30, 2005, 3:09 PM
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Well Dave, I guess you told the rest of the story, which has spared me from telling about dropping the rack on timbertop mesa. But I got a lot of other good ones. Like the time Ron almost killed me and a bus load of tourists in one day - intentionally.
That money theme must have run throughout my days in Zion. What can I say, I was a poor college student that didn't have wealthy parents. dividends and relatives in Manhattan. I didn't have an inheritance that would allow me to live out my days near Zion getting chased by the cops, being a general pain in everone's side and acting as if I was the only authority in the world on aid climbing. No I was the Busman of the Desert and relied on guys like that to pick me up at the bus station and take me climbing.
"Put the aseptics in the Fass Nord and haul them on the B rope"
Now if Ron yelled that to you after you finished leading a pitch, would you know what to do? Any guesses on what he meant by that statement?
(Still waiting for those pictures Ron.)
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ambler
Jan 30, 2005, 3:55 PM
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Damn, best thread I've read in a while,
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dmckj
Jan 30, 2005, 4:30 PM
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Rocknroller (aka Devo)
Please....don't stop. I'm all atwitter for the continuing saga of the soap opera 'As The Summons is Served', or maybe 'As the Bullet Spirals', or perhaps 'As the Rack Falls from TimberTop'. Remember, you have a public of gentle thread readers who crave, no DEMAND more.....
You know, I do recall now leading a certain pitch on Lovelace and having this weird feeling that a bullet was going to puncture a vital organ. I wrote it off to constipation from not enough coffee.
Dangle will be up for nights now, or maybe he'll just change threads...
I'm still waiting for the poll results...
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skinner
Jan 30, 2005, 10:58 PM
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I agree, best (most entertaining) thread I have read. I was up until 3:00 AM reading it.
I remember reading about the area, the climbers, and their FA's growing up as a young climber. But I never read any of this in the magazines of the time!
I think we should rename the thread;
"Mystery, Intrigue, and The Dark Secrets of Zion Revealed"
Sounds like a headline right off of the Enquirer :lol:
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dmckj
Jan 30, 2005, 11:23 PM
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If this becomes a movie, pilot TV series, or docudrama I am gong to insist on only two things:
My part is to be played by Brad Pitt...
Dangle's part by Danny Devito...
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skinner
Jan 31, 2005, 12:46 AM
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I think that you have all the makings of a Big Screen Blockbuster here;
-controversy-
-mystery-
-intrigue-
-drama-
but I think the Hollywood writers will probably change the "$3.25" phone bill, to $300,00.00 in gold bouillon.
*side note*
Brad Pit isn't all that popular these days (especially with the ladies)
I would suggest Clint Eastwood, but you may want to go for someone a little younger and more dashing.. Val Kilmer?, Tom Cruise?
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rocknroll
Jan 31, 2005, 5:20 AM
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Danny Devito as Ron!! lol You got me rolling on that one.
Well here it is. Ron and I started up a first ascent in the Temple of Sinawava, down stream from Monkey finger. It's May, and it's hot. We get a late start so we are in the shade. We hit this beautiful ledge filled with ferns and mosses, a veritable garden where you might expect the wee people to dance in the moonlight. It's perfect. Don't even need an ensolite pad. What does Ron do? He starts hacking away at the vegitation (probably had been growing there for hundreds of years) to get to the sand underneath. Well, not exactly environmentally sound, but I figured he's the Zion Master, this must be standard practice -just like those crazy drilled angles.
We are baked out of our sleeping bags by the sun and are overjoyed to see a chimney a couple of pitches up - The Herbert Hoover Chimney. It got its name for the "hoovering" we were doing in there while waiting out the sun. Ron produced a small bindle of cocaine. He claimed he got it from the pop star Robbie Dupree, who had a minor hit at the time. Well, we used a sawed off knife blade to put out some lines (and he didn't even charge me for it!) and start hoovering the stuff up our noses. And then we waited. And waited. And nothing happened. Not even a tingle.
It was so hot we were baking inside that chimney. Must have been at least a hundred. Well, we're sweaty and bored and suddenly Ron perks up.
"Watch this."
He grabs a basketball sized boulder and climbs out to the end of the chimney. Then I see it. One of those open air 'green dragon' tours. You know, with the tour guide sitting backwards talking into a microphone. I can here his oration
"And in recent years, climbers have taken to these cliffs, soimetimes spending the nights in hammocks, lashed to the side of the rock..."
"Goddamn Tourists." Ron mumbles and heaves the boulder out towards the road. I thought that he was going to just scare them, but I'll be damned if that tour and that boulder are heading for sudden impact, just about at the location of where the tour guide sits.
"Someone's gonna get killed" I say and then yell. ' ROCK!"
All heads on the tour turn upwards as the bomb speeds towards it mark. The driver slams on the brakes and the rock explodes in an orange starburst on the road a few feet from the front of the vehicle.
We duck back in the chimney. "You could have killed them, Ron"
Ron shrugs his shoulders, "What's one less tour guide?"
Well, we've had enough. I'm hot, wondering about his judgement, we're sweaty, dirty, unmotivated and got bunk cocaine. We rappel down and I hit the ground first. Mark Pey is there to meet us. Ron raps down just as Dennis Knuckles, the climbing ranger, steps out of the bushes.
"I figured it was you Ron" says the ranger.
"Well, you saw my truck. Who else would it be?"
"We heard that a rock came off this climb and almost hit a tour. Some people said it looked as if it had been thrown."
Ron started pulling the rappels. "Well, you climb here. You know the rock is loose."
"uh-huh'
"Of Sh--, " Ron says, "The rope is stuck." He looks at me. "Well, Mumbles?" (He used to call me "Mumbles the Guzzler because he claimed I didn't speak clearly enough and drank all the water.)
"Alright, I'll go."
Ron achors one end and I start jugging the rope. "Try and keep your movements to a minimum, Mike" Mark cautions, "You don't know what it is stuck on."
"it's fine."says Ron confidently. "I built the anchor.'
And that was correct. I rapped off the anchor we built to lower the haul bag and he was going to pull the pieces and wrap a sling around a tree. When I arrived at the anchor, there was no sling. He had used old 11mm nylon rope. And everyone knows that you never put nylon against nylon. It had burned 3/4's of the way through from my jugging. A few minutes more and I would have been dead.
And that's how Ron almost killed a bus load of tourists and me in the same day.
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dmckj
Jan 31, 2005, 7:19 AM
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Great stuff rocknroller!!!
You think maybe when he asked you to jug the rope he was trying to eliminate you as a witness?????
O.K. now we gotta hear about Timbertop.....wait....first I gotta make some popcorn.....
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ammon
Jan 31, 2005, 8:15 AM
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In reply to: I'm happy to say that Ammon agrees with me and Bird and Erikson and so many others that true free climbers don't use sling belays.
I don't think I said this.... exactly. I might have said that it's better style to reach a natural stance (if you can) while putting up a free climb.
Just for the record: Dean is a friend and I also support his shop in Springdale.
Great thread!!!
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skinner
Jan 31, 2005, 9:30 AM
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Name that Route (please)
While all the Zion buffs, experts, and trollers are here, can someone tell me what route this is that these dudes are climbing, and what is the route to their left? Thanx :)
http://www.netspy.net/climbing/zion/zion.html
large image, java script.. may take awhile to load
PS:
In reply to: It got its name for the "hoovering" we were doing in there |
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ambler
Jan 31, 2005, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: And that's how Ron almost killed a bus load of tourists and me in the same day. |
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dmckj
Jan 31, 2005, 5:19 PM
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Skinner...
Easy answer.
The photo is of two guys on Prodigal Son, in the area of what is referred to as the Exit Flaps (a bolt ladder for the most part).
Immediately to the left across a very blank face is a right-facing corner system leading to a broken ledge. Those corners are the last full pitch of Empty Pages (the only easy pitch on the route). To the left of Empty Pages you can infer a right-leaning crack system that rises to join Empty Pages at the obvious broken ledges. That crack coming in is Angel Hair (Dunn Route). Before Prodigal Son was manufactured, it was Archangel, and that route actually crossed the blank face all the way over to the same ledges.
So, in chronological order, Angel Hair, Archangel, and Empty Pages all share that ledge. On the second (and only?) complete ascent of Archangel (myself, Olvesky, and Steve Chardon) we bivied on those ledges. On the first ascent of Empty Pages we bivied on those ledges as well (out of water and food I might add).
It's a good photo. Too bad it is on a bolt ladder.
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dmckj
Jan 31, 2005, 5:24 PM
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I might add....that long beautiful shallow grey-black corner rising up and LEFT directly above those broken ledges is probably the single best pitch on what was Archangel. A spectacular pitch really. The normal exit off of those ledges is the right leanging overhanging corner system (Angel Hair).
The actual natural lines should have been Empty Pages finishing on the upper Archangel pitches, and then the full Prodigal Son line independent of that.
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dmckj
Jan 31, 2005, 5:33 PM
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O.K....I've had a little time to work on Casting....
Myself....Mel Gibson or maybe Billy Bob Thorton (it's a toss up)
Dangle.....Joe Pesi
Devo......Bono
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rockprodigy
Jan 31, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Hmmm...I think this tale is better suited to a Soap Opera, then a feature film. And all this time, I thought Zion was a low-key place.
Has anyone here climbed the GWT by the steep side?
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crotch
Jan 31, 2005, 6:26 PM
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At the Temple of Sinewava parking area, near the bathrooms, there's a 5-foot high slab of rock that must have about 100 bolt-holes. The thing looks like a peg-board. Anyone know the story behind that? I assume it was for practice, but that's a hell of a lot of practice.
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crotch
Jan 31, 2005, 6:28 PM
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At the Temple of Sinewava parking area, near the bathrooms, there's a 5-foot high slab of rock that must have about 100 bolt-holes. The thing looks like a peg-board. Anyone know the story behind that? I assume it was for practice, but that's a hell of a lot of practice.
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skinner
Jan 31, 2005, 7:07 PM
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dmckj- Thank you very much, awesome information. The photo takes on a whole new meaning when you're listening to someone who actually slept on those little ledges. There is a little flaky looking line running between the lower climber and those ledges. It looks like the only possible way between the two routes without a sh*tload of bolting and/or riveting. But hooking across that wall would certain cause some major sphincter clinching! :shock: Just wondering if that does, or ever did connect the two lines? And is it really that that bad.. a bolt ladder?
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epic_ed
Jan 31, 2005, 7:37 PM
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Great info, guys. It amazes me that an effort hasn't already gone into compiling some of this history and making a good book out if it. As an observer, it's absolutely fascinating to read the different recollections of what happened and when. Seems there's more than just two sides to a story sometimes.
And what's the story with Archangel, anyway? Ron -- that was one of your FA's correct? How does it differ from Prodigal and why?
I realize that not everyone agrees with the style that Prodigal Sun was put up -- clearly, Dave, you've made several references to it being chipped and drilled. But is there any merit, in your eyes, to how and why it was put up? It sees one hell of a lot of traffic every year mainly because it's a good, moderate climb and one that many n00b aid climbers venture up as their first wall. Do you think it's popular becasue it's relatively "easy" or because it's a good route? Or a combination of both?
Ed
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dmckj
Jan 31, 2005, 8:17 PM
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Skinner,
Man....you asked a leading question. I was trying to be a 'nice guy' and leave the question as to how one got across that blank face unaswered....but...
Dangle put up Archangel on solo, a very impressive and bold undertaking for which he deserves all the credit in the world (stroke, stroke).
However, he followed what is now the Prodigal Son line up to a point and, it appears, decided that the dihedrals to the left looked more appealing than taking the Prodigal line above. So....he put in a 30-something bolt ladder across the middle of that beautiful face. I know, because I led that pitch on the 2nd ascent. Subsequently, I believe Ron realized it for what it was....a travesty...and chose to 'fix' the route but exiting along Prodigal Son. A better choice, but there are still too many bolts for my tastes.
As to the other person's question about the drilled out rock near the Park bathrooms at the Temple of Sinawava.....ask dangle. That also begs the question as to the now-erased route 'Crimes Against Nature'.
cheers
D
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dmckj
Jan 31, 2005, 9:13 PM
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Ed,
I hate to get sucked into this ethical vortex, but you asked, so I'll tell you what I think (Dangle should lean over for his bottle of Scotch at this point....).....
(deep breath followed by sigh of great resignation...)
Let's start with the how and why I ended up in Zion. For about 5 straight years I was a Yosemite rat, but after climbing most of what I cared to I felt I had run my course there. I first climbed in Zion in 1978, thrashing my way up Boring Crack a 'so-called' 5.9. Kicked my butt and, for having no, or maybe one Friend that would fit the crack, scared the bejeezus out of me. Hmmm...I like this Zion climbing. Contrary to what Dangle says, I climbed Touchstone Wall in 78 or 79. Also did Moonlight with Dangle around that same time. It wasn't until my next trip with Steve Chardon in ?? (sorry folks, I have to look up the dates) that I started putting up routes.
When I did Moonlight with Dangle, it was originally as a threesome with my friend Josh Lieberman. Josh felt so abused by Dangle that he declined to continue after fixing a few pitches. I offered to bail out of the effort rather than abandon my friend, but Josh encouraged me to finish it. We did. At the top of Moonlight I inadvertently unclipped my jugs without knowing it and Ron, 20 feet below with a doobie in his fingers, caught them out of mid-air. Good job dangle. Josh didn't want anything more to do with Dangle.
Next, Steve Chardon and I and Dangle did the 2nd ascent of Archangel. By about 3 pitches up Steve felt so abused by Dangle that he declined to lead any more pitches and jugged the rest of the route. I led most of the route. My way of dealing with Dangle has always been to be one step ahead of him and to return his verbal banter with equally strong doses of my own.
Next, Dangle committed a terminal error. Steve and I were looking for new lines and Dangle pointed out the line of what is now Shune's Buttress. He had been part way up.
'Why don't you got do that??' he said with a challenging smirk on his face.
'O.K.' I replied.
Several days later we had bagged Shune's which (for history's sake) was named after the last chief of the indians who inhabited the canyon...Chief Shune...for whom old village site of Shunesburg was named at the foot of Red Arch Mtn.
After bagging Shunes we ran into Ron.
'Well...how'd it go??' smirked Ron.
'We did it. Great route. Thanks for the tip!' I said.
'What?????' Ron replied, apoplectic. 'You DID IT?' he said, now looking mad as hell.
'Well, yeah, you told us to go try it, so we did it'.
'Well, I didn't think you would GET UP IT!!!' he said, overcome with his own loss.
Anyway, with those initial adventures under my belt I no longer had any interest in going back to The Valley and, in fact, have not been back since. I mean, why deal with that scene when you can come and put up climb after climb in one of the most surreally beautiful places in the world?
So, getting back to the point...
I had had a dose of the adventure and challenge of Zion climbing. And, really, above all Zion has ALWAYS been about out-of-the-ordinary adventure. Everything is steeper, more difficult, more scary, more time-consuming, etc, on average than any other place I have climbed. I kind of like that. The ratings have always been sticky on the low side, like the old days of, lets say, The Gunks, or Granite Mountain. I have tried to maintain the old-style of grading in Zion, much to the consternation of people who accuse me of sandbagging.
Adventure, stress, fear, agony, a little blood, bad pro. What fun!
Meanwhile, a few 'easy' trade routes go up. Dangle and I bagged Spaceshot, which he prophetically predicted would become a trade route. He was right. I am O.K. with a trade route such as Spaceshot (I was not involved with the bolt ladder as Dangle did that entirely on his own).
However, Prodigal Son is another matter. That route 'should have been' a classic Zion A4 route, and, in fact, it still could be. The upper part of the route is a contrived link of bolt ladders and 'a move or two' on natural features. It could have been outstanding A3/4.
Do I begrudge people doing it? No, not at all (I've climbed it 3 times myself). Do I begrudge ONE route of its nature being put up? I suppose not. Do I think it deserves respect as a wall route with real integrity? No, I don't. (I had to laugh out loud when it made the list of 50 Classic Climbs). Am I worried that people look to that as 'an example' of how to put up a wall in Zion? Scares the shit out of me. That route was lowered to the level of 'the masses'. Now I don't mind if 'the masses' all climb on that route, but they should keep their bolt ladders OFF OF ZION WALLS.
To wit, for years all of us viewed the line that is now Desert Shield. Why didn't it get done? Simply because we felt too ashamed to drill a monster bolt ladder to get to the base of the crack. Well....someone finally decided that this was O.K. Was this good or bad? To me, it is a gray area.
But the big danger is destroying something you love. And what I always loved about Zion was that it was, and is, one of the more 'out there' places you can climb. Dumbing down routes so more people can climb them is, to me, a horrible precendent. As I have said, I greatly admire Dangle's eye for lines, but I don't admire making lines accessible to everyone by opening them up to anyone. If there is ONLY one Dangle who adds spice and controversy to life, that's fine. What frightens me is a younger generation of wall climbers deciding it is 'O.K.' to make everything as user-friendly as possible. That would destroy Zion as a place to climb.
So, yeah, I can live with ONE Prodigal Son, but there should be limits and standards. People should learn to climb in Zion on its own terms, not the terms of creating an easy route where none existed.
blah, blah, blah
D
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skinner
Jan 31, 2005, 11:38 PM
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Wow.. interesting piece of history. I don't know what everyone else thinks, but it seems like bolting has almost come full circle. People were up in arms when Harding was drilling his way up the wall, but soon enough all sorts of people were pounding on granite as a way to open new lines that were otherwise deemed inaccessible. As technology advanced new and old lines were being completed without bolting, where a decade earlier it would have been the only option.
But.. along came the "Sport" climbers, and the drills were humming like never before, only this time they were power drills. I am pretty sure that if they had to pound these holes in by hand, bolted anchor sales would only be a fraction of what they are. Don't get me wrong, I have put in my share of bolts, but it just seems like it is a little out of hand when my 11 year old leads past 6 bolts, before placing his own protection.
I have never been to Zion, but it is certainly a definite 2-do now! I did however grow up climbing on sandstone, not the nice red stuff with beautiful cracks, but rather the whitish stuff that is more like hard packed mud in places. The friction is unbelievable, and you are able to pull off some gravity defying moves because of it. Protection is another story altogether, so I do understand how bolts would come into play.
Ok, now you have to help me out again here, having never been to Zion I am still trying to orient myself through photos.
In this photo:
http://www.netspy.net/...ing/zion/zion02.html
Is Prodigal Son in this photo? on the left? If not tell me where this is, what other routes are in this photo?
Thanks!!
Oh ya.. I found this photo of Prodigal Son with the route marked. I am not sure of it's accuracy, but I am certain we will find out :wink:
http://www.netspy.net/...odigal-son-route.jpg
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takeme
Feb 1, 2005, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: O.K....I've had a little time to work on Casting.... Myself....Mel Gibson or maybe Billy Bob Thorton (it's a toss up) Dangle.....Joe Pesi Devo......Bono
I have no idea how accurate all these entertaining stories involving "Dangle" are, but as he's being portrayed here, he bears an uncanny resemblance to Walter from the Big Lebowski. As such, naturally, he should be played by John Goodman.
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flamer
Feb 1, 2005, 2:20 AM
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In reply to: he should be played by John Goodman.
Too tall...and handsome.
josh
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dmckj
Feb 1, 2005, 4:37 AM
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O.K....I got my popcorn.......I'm ready for the 'Tall Tales from Timbertop' installment from Devo.
Where are you Devo?
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dmckj
Feb 1, 2005, 4:42 AM
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Skinner,
Your skinny photo accurately shows the location of Prodigal Son.
At the VERY left edge of that same photo is the nearly invisible line of Empty Pages (A4/5) and I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the crack at the right edge of the photo is Ball and Chain, which was dramatically freed not too long ago, possibly by someone in this thread.
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bsmoot
Feb 1, 2005, 5:12 AM
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Yeah, as popular as Prodigal Sun is, it's one of 17 lines on the NE face of Angel's Landing (NE Buttress to the Minotuar.) Jeff Lowe's classic route was the first done on the wall in 1970. The second line was the Dunn route. Any of you remember the ABC Wide World of Sports special with George Willig...the guy who got infamous by climbing the World Trade Center? George was gonna climb Angel's Landing for ABC.
The Dunn route is the line George chose...not an easy line, although it's the most obvious. The word is that during George's ascent, he wasn't making fast enough time, so during the night, he and his partner jugged several hundred feet of the cameraman's fixed ropes to get back on schedule! Later, near the top, he took a head-first screamer for the camera! Remember that easy chimney at the top of Prodigal Sun? That's why it's sometimes referred to as "the flying George chimney".
Here are some first ascents I'd like to hear about:
- Thunderbird Wall - this wall is massive, come on Devo!
- Full Steam Ahead - Ammon's HUGE climb on West Temple.
- Levels of Doom - Amanda Tarr's adventure up the 2,000' Twin Brother
- The Radiator - Middendorf's big climb AND descent of Abraham.
- Either of Dave Jones' A5's
Thanks!
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crotch
Feb 1, 2005, 5:29 AM
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In reply to: Levels of Doom - Amanda Tarr's adventure up the 2,000' Twin Brother
Amanda wrote a TR back in '97. http://groups-beta.google.com/...f46bd71?dmode=source
BTW, we bailed off of the Egg back in December. Too cold for us Californians. The line looked great though. We'll be back in February, weather permitting.
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dmckj
Feb 1, 2005, 5:56 AM
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Ballad of Timbertop Mesa
Dangle once had a rack on Timbertop
New as it could be
Knifeblades, baby angles to part the sandstone rock
The route t'would not be free...
Timbertop will always be..
Home sweet home to me..
Good ol' Timbertop..
And Dangle's rack fallin' free..
And Dangle's rack fallin' free..
take it Devo...
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skinner
Feb 1, 2005, 6:48 AM
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October 29 1977
The ascent of mountain climber George Willig to the top of Eldorado Canyon in Eldorado Springs, Colo. marks the first time live coverage of a climb was presented on American television.
The PA legal department pressed criminal trespass against Willig, then iced the cake with a $750,000 civil suit.
It took a second publicity stunt, this one dreamed up by PA's top PR man, Sidney Frigand, to put a positive spin on the Authority's edifice complex. In a courtroom sentencing turned media opportunity, Willig copped a tongue-in-cheek plea, agreeing to pay the city a fine of one dollar and ten cents - a penny for every floor he'd climbed.
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skinner
Feb 1, 2005, 6:54 AM
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This is sort of funny, a photo of George Willig's signature where he spray painted it on the World Trade Center after reaching the top.
http://www.1134.org/gallery/random/aah
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lambone
Feb 1, 2005, 7:01 AM
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the only thing this thread needs is more pictures
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rocknroll
Feb 1, 2005, 11:54 AM
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Hey, I am saving the best for last. One more tale and this involves a song...a song about that wallman, Dave Jomes written by none other but Piton Ron.
Dave, my memory is foggy on this so you'll have to help me out.
Geez, I can't even remember the name of the climb. It is the 5.10 dihedral near the Touchstone Wall. We went out to climb it one day, and some "damn hippie environmentalists" as local pig farmer Dan Gifford calls them, had put up a banner on the second pitch. It read something like "Stop the Dams" in reference to Glen Canyon, or were they thinking of damming the Virgin? Anyhoo, Dave, George Allen and I decide to go climb this route. We were fresh from Tucson, where the cracks will only accept R.P's and we knew we would all be struggling on this nasty off-width layback. Well, George Allen leads the thing solidly. By the time Dave was ready to follow the pitch, quite a crowd had gathered in the parking lot . After all, there's the banner and there's the climbers. Besides the regular touron lookyloos there was just about every climber in the area - all eight of them. Mark and Stacey Austin, Gary Gray, Mark Pey, Conrad Anker, Ron Olevesky, was Flying Fisher there? (R.I.P.)...I think even George Hartilmeyer was there, an old climber from the alps who loved retelling the story of his friends dying on the Eiger, "oh Tony! Poor Tony (Egger)'. Relieved of belay duty, I ran down to join the party below. The doobs were passing around (of course George refused) and we had the stereo cranked in Mark Pey's bright yellow volkswagon Rabbit. As Dave is shoeing up, Ron is shooting off his mouth that Dave isn't gonna make it because he's seen him in off-widths and he knows Dave hates off widths. He starts taking bets. No one is stepping up, but everyone is egging Ron on wondering what outrageous plan he has to be assured that Dave doesn't make it. He tells me to go ask Dave if he wants to bet. I run up to the base and think better of it. After all, my allegiance to Ron had already sparked some animosity and divisiveness amongst the Tucson contingent, But I inform him that Ron is spouting negativity again. "F=== him!" Dave says and starts climbing. As I remember, you don't see the climber from the ground for the first 20 or 30 feet, and then he is well into the business. As Dave emerges from chimney, shouts and whoops fill the canyon. Ron's got his cheerleading going and Dave seems to be on the opposite team, "Hey, climber, climber, climber, SWING!" yells Ron. And to the tune of "We want a pitcher, not a belly itcher" "We want a wallman not a belly crawl man". Everyone was good and baked and had guzzeled thier mandatory ten 3.2 beers for a slight buzz and were laughing at Ron (now that's AT him not WITH him). From my vantage point at the base, I could see that Dave is getting flustered by all the attention. Dave's feet slide on the slick rock; I can hear Ron from below, "See, See, I told you...Fall, Fall, FALL!". Dave considers trying to squeeze into the off-width instead of laybacking it.
Ron: "I told you he hates off widths, well, then why is he trying to get inside it?"
And Dave gets into the classic climber predicament: you don't want to leave the security of that body wedge and start laybacking again.
The stereo goes from cranking Devo to the B-52's to David Byrne and Brian Eno's My Life in the Bush of Ghosts. An excellent album if you've never heard it. On the album they take found sound bites and make a kinda funky jungle beat around them like on the Talking Head's Remain in Light album. Well, the song playing is a baptist preacher saying, "Help me somebody!"
Ron: Crank that! Louder, Louder!
"Help me somebody!!"
Dave is now upset, he trys to get back into the layback and his feet slips off the wall, he sucks back into the off width.
The crowd: "ooooohhhh!"
"Help me somebody!!"
Ron is jumping around like that famous picture of Hitler after he learns the invasion of Poland was a success.
"Help me somebody!" repeats the Preacher, " Ask yourself if you've become the person that God wants you to be. It's no big thing, its no small thing, what...people...think, Whoooo! Help me somebody!"
The crowd: Whoooo! Help me somebody!"
Dave has had enough. He hasn't fallen yet so he hasn't lost his dignity. So he whispers up to George, " ...tension...".
George (Loudly): what?
Dave (louder whisper) tension!
George (Loudly) TENSION?
Ron is now besides himself.
The crowd (including the tourists): Whoooo! Help me somebody!"
I run down to the parking lot to join the fun. Ron asks me if he was calling for tension.
"No, he wasn't calling for tension, he was whispering for tension. "
The song on the stereo ends, all is quiet, and Ron breaks into song, inventing the words on the spot:
"He's a 5.10 wall man,
his nuts are made of brass.
His hands are bound in tape,
he's got a Long Dong* up his ass."
"Now 5.10's got bad habits,
some we will not mention,
but when he's on that 5.11 move
he's whispering for tension."
"Everybody now!
He's a 5.10 wall man,
his nuts are made of brass.
His hands are bound in tape,
he's got a Long Dong* up his ass."
* A Long Dong is a piton, not what you think it is. But the pun works.
Well, Ron couldn't get the crowd to sing it (it must have been that Long Dong line) and folks soon dispersed and let Dave climb the route in peace.
But since then, the song has been sung around climber's campfires for years, thanks to some hefty promotion by myself and Ron.
Now, does anyone know what Ron means when he yells "Put the aseptics in the Fass Nord and haul them on the B rope"
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dmckj
Feb 1, 2005, 5:39 PM
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Bono....er, uh, Devo...
Good tale lad! I do recall that day. Now that the statute of limitations is over I can tell you that banner was put up by Mark A#####. The route was/is Coconut Corner.
As far as Dangle's gutteral utterances.....It is common for people with psychological 'differences' to speak in tongues, so maybe this was spoken in Sanskrit. It might mean 'Watch my ass cause I'm doing the famous dangle two-step top step to get to the next drilled placement', or, alternatively, 'I bored with being nice to the rock. Let's go empty a few clips into the Rockville bench.'
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dmckj
Feb 1, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Devo,
Actually, thinking back, George led the first pitch and I was leading, not following, the second. If I recall I ended up sliming my way up inside the crack instead of laybacking it, a horrible mistake from being timid that day.
FYI, George Allen is, unfortunately, now in the advanced stages of colon cancer and was just operated on last week.
Let's all wish him the best for a good recovery.
d
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rocknroll
Feb 1, 2005, 7:57 PM
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As I said, my memory was not so good so I took advantage of the lapses to embellish. Not really sure if all those people were there or even if Ron was leading the cheer. But I do remember the crowd, the new wave songs on the stereo, especially the "Help me somebody", the crowd yelling, me running back and forth and I do remember telling Ron about you whispering for tension. But let's let it go down in the history books as I wrote it. A far better tale.
Timber top is coming soon...Maybe a day or two, but soon.
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epic_ed
Feb 1, 2005, 8:34 PM
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Ok, ok. I'll bite. WTF does he mean by "put the asceptics in the Fass Nord"? These stories are a riot. Ron -- you're not gonna take this lying down, are ya? It's always good to hear both sides of the story, and you fellas have got some great stories and history together, despite the animosity that seems to persist even today. I hope all of you knuckle-draggers can look back with at least a little bit of nostalgia and reflect on how significant an impact all of you had back in the day.
Ed
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rocknroll
Feb 1, 2005, 10:51 PM
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No animosity. I love Ron. What a character! Sure he can be rough around the edges, but then can't we all? I love his boldness, willingness to stand up for what he thinks is right, and his outrageous behavior. And I am sure that over the years he has had some hard lessons, I know I have (I offer to pay for gas now). That's what life is about, learning, growing and having as much fun as possible (and hopefully at no one elses expense).
What was it that Maude said in "Harold and Maude" Something like "You can't let life grab you and toss you aound, you got to reach out and grab it." Ron's done that, I've done that, Jonesey done that. I think that's how we climbers distinguish ourselves from the masses that want to just be comfortable and god forbid, take a risk...try something new...learn something...experience a little pain for the reward of pleasure.
Ron epitomizes a life being lived to the fullest . And I know for a fact, these days he is a lot more pleasurable to be around. Aren't we all, as we get older and realize it's not worth it to sweat the little things. Damn, I wouldn't trade those times with Ron for the world.
How sweet to remember that cotton mouth gravelly voice yelling at me as if his life was about to end from a hundred feet above,
"GODDAM IT BUSMAN, PUT THE ASEPTICS IN THE FASS NORD AND HAUL THEM ON THE B-ROPE!!"
Huh?
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dingus
Feb 1, 2005, 10:55 PM
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In reply to: No animosity. I love Ron. What a character! Sure he can be rough around the edges, but then can't we all? I love his boldness, willingness to stand up for what he thinks is right, and his outrageous behavior. And I am sure that over the years he has had some hard lessons, I know I have (I offer to pay for gas now). That's what life is about, learning, growing and having as much fun as possible (and hopefully at no one elses expense).
Nicely done!
DMT
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dmckj
Feb 1, 2005, 11:03 PM
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Gentle Thread Reader (to Ed in particular)
It has come to our attention that some readers think there is a bit of hyperbole in our tales on Zion climbing history.
As hard as it is for you to believe, we AREN'T exaggerating, and there ain't no other 'side' to this stuff. In FACT, this is toned down from the way things really went down.... Why? A bunch of folks are afraid to comment because of a certain person's propensity to file lawsuits or make threats. But, frankly, that cuts both ways, and soon may if someone is silly enough to attempt to silence the critics. (By the way....stay tuned for more participants as more folks come out of the woodwork).
As to the animosity, I publicly stated here that Dangle could salvage his soul with an apology and a check. Anyway, it is all self-induced, a form of instant karma. Which leads me to believe that thread readers should hear 'THE REST OF THE STORY' as to the court appearance.
Hell, why not air it all.
What about the parties in Zion who were threatened at having their ropes shot (this is called aggravated assault, which in Arizona carries a 2 year minimum sentence)?
What about 'Crimes Against Nature', the route that got erased?
What about walking into a cowboy bar along the north rim of the Black Canyon of the Gunnison with a pistol stuck down the front of someone's pants? (Yuh cudda herd a pin drop!)
Inquiring minds will want to know more!!!
(stay tuned)
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epic_ed
Feb 1, 2005, 11:28 PM
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I don't think you're exaggerating, at all. I believe you're giving a genuine account of the events as you remember them, which is why this is so compelling to read. But there are different sides to every story. Yours, his, and the rest of 'em. Hell, I couldn't give you the same trip report as my partner on Prodigal from a climb I did two years ago. We'd have wildly different stories, for certain. I can imagine how some of the details have become blurred by the passing of 20+ years while others, I'm sure, are vividly clear.
Ed
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dangle
Feb 2, 2005, 2:14 AM
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Well I was in Salt Lake longer than planned. Outdoor Retailer only took two days but I hung around trying to get a few kids for the freezer. Looks like the boys have been busy.
I've only skimmed through this but think I can see what's happened. Sometimes when one dines out on stories repeatedly they are "refined". The lines that get laughs become "enhanced". Sometimes even roles are swapped for "convenience". Occasionally stories are manufactured out of whole cloth just to keep within a theme.
This is not one of those times.
Devo and Davo have with no interference from the bloodthirsty looky lewes recounted their epic tales with such startling accuracy, such painstaking detail, that I would suspect that they have been keeping clandestine journals or secretly recording all the conversations. Clearly their true calling should have been at the Smithsonian.
What's more the positive effects of their own roles are portrayed with such modesty that I feel compelled to elaborate.
You see the mighty busman only sought to climb with me out of concern for public safety. He wisely knew that someone had to at least bear witness to the perfidy inevitable in my actions. I can understand him being a little miffed at my indication that he was a "special" partner who didn't need to belay me but merely serve as an upward pull anchor while I rope soloed. But his claim to have halted the tour bus with merely his powerful command was only to mask the true nature of his heroics.
You see I had secreted a bottle of nitro-glycerine in the first aid kit. He almost caught on when I insisted that he lower the bag out only 20 feet.
I started a huge rock avalanche that certainly would have taken out the bus which likely had a few small children whose livers I could then eat, but the mighty busman swooped down in front of it green cape fluttering in the wind. With one hand he lifted the entire bus out of harm's way and with the other he stopped the largest boulder dead in its tracks. Regretably he was forced to ignore the destruction of a unique elfen forest that existed nowhere else in the world because of his committment to human life.
The one who truly is deserving of sainthood though is Dave. Where it not for his selfless purity that actually has a mild levitational effect he might not have succeeded on some of his climbs. These are not so much routes as screening tools for the chosen ones. The mandatory free climbing and the aiding of seams that immediately degrade are the pathways for only those possessed of the unadulterated vision of adventure to seek adrenal atonement. God forbid that the masses corrupt these vaunted lines.
Dave climbs for unexpressed rewards. Just ask him.
I've been incredibly fortunate. Without intent I've managed to stumble upon classic routes sometimes dozens of times in a row. I've become friends with people I had held as heroes. In adition to numerous articles I have had my 15 minute interview in Choss and Snow. I've even tricked my way into a video!
As if my inadvertant climbing notoriety weren't enough even my tech stocks made money. Clearly past partners of lesser moral character might be inclined to resent or even envy such good fortune. The profoundly weak or under-confidant might even make attempts to build themselves up by tearing that person down.
Obviously thats not the case here. These guys are big hearted men of the people. Their selfless testamony was performed purely from an obligation to public service. This is their part in the war on terror aside from their numerous death leads which they can't tell you about.
And Dave's apology?
As soon as I figure out what I should say you'l have it. Until then you can just hold your breath and guess which finger I'm typing this with.
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rockprodigy
Feb 2, 2005, 3:18 AM
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Ssssssssnap!
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dmckj
Feb 2, 2005, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: I started a huge rock avalanche that certainly would have taken out the bus which likely had a few small children whose livers I could then eat, but the mighty busman swooped down in front of it green cape fluttering in the wind. With one hand he lifted the entire bus out of harm's way and with the other he stopped the largest boulder dead in its tracks
Wow! I knew Devo was stout, but not THAT stout. Don't be so modest next time Devo.
In reply to: The one who truly is deserving of sainthood though is Dave
O.K., NOW we're getting somewhere...only I'm not Catholic.
In reply to: These guys are big hearted men of the people
In my life I have NEVER heard Dangle speak with such clarity of mind.
In reply to: guess which finger I'm typing this with
Hope you washed it first.
I getting kind of disappointed in this thread. I through Joe Pesci (or Pesi?) was pretty damned brilliant. Also, no responses to the poll.
(hushed overvoice narration to message, seeming to be detached from its author, and therefore carrying the moral weight of impartial truth....)
Gentle readers will note that there is not a rebuttal to be found.....so far....
More history forthcoming.
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dangle
Feb 2, 2005, 5:23 AM
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Gee sorry about that McKjones.
A little insensitive to your religious background was I.
Certainly not something you would do. (your friends yes, but you no)
How about a statue instead? Some soldiers I know can get you a big one.
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rocknroll
Feb 2, 2005, 9:40 AM
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Ron, how honorable of you to tell it like it is. Of course Dave and I had no desire to be ignominious towards you. We have to accept the truth as it happened. And since we have kept the Timbertop story from our dear readers, perhaps we can tell that epic tale together. Or at least, tell each side of our stories. I am sure we will have wildly different versions. After all, you did not witness exactly what happened when the rack took its fateful flight .I just remember your words when you arrived at the anchor, "I am not even going to acknowledge you by yelling at you. Let's go down."
But a fine tale it is...court battles won, mules pissing on our shoes, dreams of sponsors and films to be made, the ill-fated mutiny and exodus as Mark and I left the Kolob. Gee I can't wait to write it. But you first Ron.
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skinner
Feb 2, 2005, 3:15 PM
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In reply to: when the rack took its fateful flight |
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dmckj
Feb 2, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: Of course Dave and I had no desire to be ignominious towards you.
Whoah! This is a guy who said in court that he only accepted a phone call from me because he thought it was Warren Harding, in order to screw me over for something I didn't do. Sorry, Dangle doesn't get off that easy...
In reply to: "I am not even going to acknowledge you by yelling at you. Let's go down."
This gets the quote of the day award in my book. The question I have is this: If Devo was able to swoop down and save the busload of tourists with his green cape fluttering, why didn't he just retrieve the rack? I must be missing the obvious here.
Never fear, gentle reader, a thread-pertinent historical interlude will be coming up shortly......
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ron_jeremy
Feb 2, 2005, 8:41 PM
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Great thread, learned more than I ever cared to about Zion history. But I also must set a couple facts straight for the record.
1-Dave Jones is a sandbagging MF'er. Omak Crack=12a? Might have well called it I'm On Crack. Nice one there.
&
2-Flamer, Jon wanted me to tell you that you cried like a little baby lamb while leading Lurking Fear last summer.
Also, I just thought I should mention that Alpine is the biggest disgrace to the world of Hotshots, no wait, I take that back...it's your Park Service sisters at Arrowhead.
That's all.
Carry on.
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dmckj
Feb 2, 2005, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: Dave Jones is a sandbagging MF'er. Omak Crack=12a? Might have well called it I'm On Crack. Nice one there
Way off thread, but I'll pitch in. Omak Crack (or Omakulate Conception)....great route in the Omak area of Okanogan Valley in Washington State. Took me three (or 4?) concerted afternoon efforts to get up it on lead...all trad. Frankly, I don't think I'm capable of putting up anything harder than a 5.12a on lead in that manner, but if you want to jack up the rating so be it. Maybe you've spent a little too much time in the 'soft' Valley World of ratings. No move on Omak is harder than solid 5.11, just a lot of hard moves in a row which made me give it the 'token' 5.12a. If you thought that was sandbag, you probably thought all the other ones at Omak are sandbag.
And if you thought those were sandbag....I'd avoid going to Zion.....
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flamer
Feb 2, 2005, 9:19 PM
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In reply to: 2-Flamer, Jon wanted me to tell you that you cried like a little baby lamb while leading Lurking Fear last summer. Also, I just thought I should mention that Alpine is the biggest disgrace to the world of Hotshots, no wait, I take that back...it's your Park Service sisters at Arrowhead.
If I had to wager a guess....I'd say What's up Morgan???
Dude everybody know's that Arrowhead is soft.....after all i hear they recruit from those sissy's over at Yosemite Helitack!!
josh
ps LF was 2 years ago....
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dangle
Feb 3, 2005, 12:55 AM
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Just back from the rock and the sun with cell talk and big pertinent doings but more after I create some dinner. Still, before washing my fingers I wanted to add publicly that Alpinestylist offered me a very polite and sincere apology via PM that I won't embarass him by printing here.
Brent is OK in my book as long as he comes through with that beer I suggested when the time comes.
I really did only skim through this so I'm not sure I understand a Harding reference (I'm not sure I want to) but I miss that crotchety old coot. I want suggestions from some aid climbers where to donate some of his stuff. I have one of his hammers, some of his rack, and the prize of the collection is the spare bat tent carried but not needed on the WOTEML. I want to use it once on a virgin wall before either giving it to the Yosemite Foundation or the AAC Museum in Golden.
Although I skimmed, Devo's claim of "nothing ignominious" smells like horse manure. His Hitler reference was an attempt to obscure the treachery of Dave's friend (Devo's too perhaps??) and alone refutes it.
Why he should prove so two faced is beyond me. I made a good natured crack about his video. (If he didn't contract for residuals from TLC he is as we speak beating his head into the wall and saying"Why? Why?) And threatened to "blackmail" him with the one picture he knows I wouldn't broadcast because its always the biggest laugh in any slide show I do. Its the after in a before/after sequence right after he believes that the rope just broke or something.
I have been approached by eye doctors afterwards who wish to use the photo or just study it further. They say stuff like,"I'd have sworn that could only happen in cartoons!"
Shame on you. This is supposed to be about history. I criticized McJones for usurping Scott Fischer's rightful place in Zion history. Either by active or passive means matters little to me. He continues to equivocate on this offering only a weak claim to have repeated a couple of ankle biter routes. (Boring Crack was continued to the summit by Jeff Lowe in my video now available at your local climbing shop. except for zion rock and etc.)
Before dinner I just wanted to add that Dave's puerile attempt to ignore my sarcasm and take words at face value doesn't become a Dartmouth grad.
Omigod! I just thought of something. What if he really DOESN'T understand?
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 2:01 AM
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Oh my...Dangle must have been delving deep into his Dale Carnegie books to come up with this last one....
Let's see what debating tricks did he use:
1) When losing an argument, change the subject...
2) When losing an argument, try to pretend you're above it all....
3) When losing an argument, play on the emotions of the crowd (evoking Fisher and Harding in a single post).
The bit about 'not understanding' the Harding reference was priceless. In a bit I'll provide the source of the Harding reference. It was Ron who evoked Harding while telling his 'story' in court. He's now earned the right to have a full public airing. Thread readers will notice he has stayed away from this topic entirely.
Same thing with respect to Fischer.
Really nice, Dangle. Playing on the memories of two dead guys to put yourself above it all and tear down other folks.
Where'd you learn that one?
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iamthewallress
Feb 3, 2005, 2:12 AM
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Regarding Harding's items...Ken Yager would probably be happy to receive them for the new climbing museum that's supposed to go in on the dirt where the gas station used to be.
http://rockclimbing.org/YCA_flyer.pdf
A personal story about what happened in court might add spice to the artifacts?
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dangle
Feb 3, 2005, 3:23 AM
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Back on the cell. Can't I even have a glass?
What does the book say? When I AM above mudslinging and arguing with a loser? Hey! Come here. There's something in my turd. Dig it out and explain it to me. Ooh if you don't you're a loser automatically because I say so.
History is history. Petty bickering doesn't qualify. I think Mike might be picking up on that, but as to changing the argument, what was that response to debunking your claim to seventies history? Fischer as well? What does that mean?
(I'll take your word on the Dale Carnegie claim.)
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rocknroll
Feb 3, 2005, 4:34 AM
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Gee, Ron, I take back my statement that you might be a more calmer and resonable person these days. Your first reply to our stories was an excellent piece of prose; intellegent, a great command of syntax, and certainly accepting of the fun we have had at your expense thus far. This last post with its fecal references, poor analogies and circular logic; its only conclusion being the same name-calling and bickering that you complain about; are you drinking and posting? I have the utmost respect for your intelligence, but I must say, you are proving by example that negative side of you that sends so many of your partners away. No wonder you have soloed so many walls.. .
The Timbertop story ends like this.
"I can't believe that Ron made us walk" I said to Mark as I stuck out my thumb and grinned at the on-coming traffic. "But the Busman has hitched hiked all over this land and I got a formula for these scared Mormons - 1)dress like a preppie not a climber; 2) smile, don't look like a threat and 3)always have a sign that says "Home to Mom."
Mark replied, "Well with that grin, that rope on your back and Ron's court papers as a sign, you'll never get a ride. You look like you were just let out of the mental institution."
"I feel like it to. That Ron Olevesky makes you crazy."
Mark: "I know. After this experience I will never speak to him again. I am erasing his name out of my address book and clearing his memory from my mind."
And Mark has kept that promise to this day.
Come on Ron, let's hear your side of the court case/ timbertop story!
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 4:42 AM
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Dang it.....how come I never have hot popcorn ready when things start getting interesting........(I'll be back)
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 4:49 AM
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Rocknroller,
Obviously your years as a top video maker are paying off big time. Nice set-up to the Timbertop Tale, plus injecting the court documents was a good twist. I hope you treated those documents with some respect, as they cost me a bit of money...
I'm warming up to the tale.
So...how long did it take you guys to walk back to Springdale?
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rocknroll
Feb 3, 2005, 5:00 AM
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We didn't walk. We got a ride. Thank God for Jack Mormons.
Timber top is coming, But I am waiting for Ron to put the aseptics in the fass nord and haul them on the B rope and tell his side of the story.
In the mean time, do you want to hear the story of trying to win a date with Ceder City Sally at the Bit and Spur Saloon in Springdale?
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 5:08 AM
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Yeah, Cedar City Sally....didn't she sing a song, let's see, how'd it go?.....
I'll be your Cedar City Sally...
If you'll be my Zion wall dude...
And we can sneak into Pah Tempe hot springs
And go soak in the nude....
doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
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rocknroll
Feb 3, 2005, 7:04 AM
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There's a band playing at the Bite and Spank (Bit and Spur) Saloon and them Mormon folk are going to be letting thier hair down. The bar is filled with river runners, cowboys, sheepherders, tourists and a few girls that look like they could be out of high school. The climbers are a new addition to the demographics as is one punk rocker (me) and a gay guy (the owner). I never really was very good at picking up chicks and felt a little uncomfortable. Mark Pey, as my coach, says nothing ventured, nothing gained. Well. I spy this thin waif of a girl and get bold and start talking. "What's your name?
Sally?
Where you from?
Ceder City?
Ceder City Sally?
Yep.
Suddenly I ran out of things to say.
An uncomfortable silence when I hear this bellowing voice from across the bar yelling to Sally.
"Come on over here little girl and I'll give you a kiss you'll never forget, by God!"
It's Dan Gifford, the pig farmer. (Ever notice how people in agricultural areas actually look like cows, pigs, and sheep?) A big smile comes over her face and Sally skips across the bar, plops down on Dan's over stuffed knee, grabs his humongus belly and plants one right on his fat lips.
I say to Mark " I could never do that."
Mark: "well, you better start. He just stole her away from you."
But Ceder City Sally comes back and she's now really interested in me. The band starts, I start pogo dancing and Sally gives me a look like I just walked off a space ship.
"I'm losing her." I say to Mark as we separate and go off the dance floor.
Mark hands me the keys to the VW rabbit. "there's some pot and a pipe in the glove box. See if she want's to get high" Mark turns around and continues his conversation with a female river guide. I watch the Master at work.
She: What are you doing in Zion?
Mark: I am an ornithologist (Mark Pey's Guide to Picking up Women Rule No. 1 -Whatever you do, don't let on that you are a scum bag climber).
Mark: I was wondering if you were interested in finding a rare bird with me? The purple headed throbber.
She: purple headed throbber?
I almost bust out laughing as Sally returns and snuggles up close to me. "You wanna go get high? " I ask and we go out to the parking lot.
"So Sally," I ask as we each take tokes on the pipe "what's it like living in Ceder City.'
"Well. life was pretty normal until them Californians came to town. Then I started getting in trouble. Sex,drugs, rock and roll. And I am suppose to be a Mormon. But I don't go no more, I guess I'm what we call a jack mormon".
There is a long silence as I try and think of something to say. But she speaks first.
"I have a present for you. " she says in the sweetest, softest voice.
"You do?"
Yup." and from inside her coat she produces a glass with the Bit and Spur logo on it..
I state the obvious."That's a glass from the bar."
"Yup" she says as she leans in close. "I stoled it. Its for you.
"Sally." I say, " I don't think the owner Marcus would appreciate you stealing his glass."
"What!" Sally becomes indignant "Well you can keep your stupid pot...and the glass" and she slams the door and runs into the arms of Dan Giiford.
And that was that.
oK it isnt as good a story as the others, but I wonder what ol' Ceder City Sally is doing today.
Your turn Ron
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dangle
Feb 3, 2005, 7:19 AM
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Reminded why I only skim.
OK I lived in Cedar City from 9/79 - 12/81.
I dated one Sally in '76.
I went to Pah Tempe on numerous occasions with female companions until it was screwed up by the water project.
Speaking of screwed up, is this another case of time warp?
Don't remember any hitchiking. Do remember shuttling a borrowed trailer to Summit (a town) twice to get my mule from Toquerville to Lee Pass.
To the intelligent reader saying WTF,
Lee Pass like Lee's Ferry, AZ is named for John D. Lee who claimed to be a scapegoat when executed for the Mountain Meadow Massacre some twenty years earlier. I can certainly identify with scapegoats but reading Sally Denton's new book, American Massacre, which researched the incident in remarkable depth then unfortunately calls it the worst case of terrorism in this country before 9/11 (what about the Lawrence Kansas raid not many years later? OK it might have been an overzealous editor.) John D. Lee comes off as a monster who as a Danite perpetrated an act of deceit so treacherous that it was compared by Dale Walker in Legends and Lies to the fase promise by Dhondu Pant (Nana Sahib) at Cawnpore only months earlier. This horrific event is described in detail by Christopher Hibbert in The Great Mutiny, India 1857.
Any of the three make a better read than this thread. I'm getting back to the finish of the Denton work.
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dangle
Feb 3, 2005, 7:24 AM
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Sorry folks. By the time I finished posting with one finger...
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 7:26 AM
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so much for Dangle rising to the occasion
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rocknroll
Feb 3, 2005, 7:31 AM
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Ron
Don't be so self conscious...that post wasn't about you. Just killing time waiting for your version of the court case/ timbertop story.
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dangle
Feb 3, 2005, 7:51 AM
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Same advice.
Hold your breath and guess which finger. Keep holding.
Back to the book.
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dangle
Feb 3, 2005, 10:00 AM
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The book was great. I again give it thumbs up.
And speaking of fingers apologize for missing the l in false.
Most of my missed letters are from the current bout of ulnar tunnel syndrome of the LEFT arm that saw me wearing a device at OR. It has nearly subsided since and the error alluded to was an l which is right handed.
That is if I was NOT typing with one finger.
To the reader;
The common erroneous belief that thumbs up from the Roman Emperor was a signal for mercy is misplaced transference.
Thumbs down meant sheath your sword.
Thumbs up meant off with the head.
Well come on. This IS supposed to be a history thread.
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dangle
Feb 3, 2005, 10:25 AM
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Don't read me wrong. Ridley Scott is great.
And his premier film The Duellists is one of the finest offerings in cinema history.
Curiously it is the story of a feud that lasts for decades and has a partial basis in fact. More curiously the crew of the film discovered in making the Joseph Conrad book into a film that it had indeed been based on a real life feud and occurred near that very location as well. And not to beat a curious horse, my father just like Joseph Conrad learned english as a third language in his twenties. Before his death he had a far greater command of it than most for whom it was sole tongue. And of course Conrad, a polish merchant seaman, is acknowleged as one of the greats of english literature.
Just weird I guess.
Good night.
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ron_jeremy
Feb 3, 2005, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Dave Jones is a sandbagging MF'er. Omak Crack=12a? Might have well called it I'm On Crack. Nice one there Way off thread, but I'll pitch in. Omak Crack (or Omakulate Conception)....great route in the Omak area of Okanogan Valley in Washington State. Took me three (or 4?) concerted afternoon efforts to get up it on lead...all trad. Frankly, I don't think I'm capable of putting up anything harder than a 5.12a on lead in that manner, but if you want to jack up the rating so be it. Maybe you've spent a little too much time in the 'soft' Valley World of ratings. No move on Omak is harder than solid 5.11, just a lot of hard moves in a row which made me give it the 'token' 5.12a. If you thought that was sandbag, you probably thought all the other ones at Omak are sandbag. And if you thought those were sandbag....I'd avoid going to Zion.....
Dave, it's your route. And a seriously proud one. Far be it from me to change anything about it. I've just watched it bout some climbers that were way solid at that grade and know a couple other strong climbers that travelled there for what seemed like years before redpointing it.
It's also kicked my ass all three times I've been on it, and a couple of those times I was climbing significantly above the given rating (at least according to the El Softo Valley Rating System).
Oh yeah, with the exception of Gravitons (saving that one for the OS), I didn't think any of the other climbs there were hard for the grade. (Possible stars were aligned and you were in sendomatic mode during the Conception?)
Enjoying the thread, although it's starting to get a bit one sided now. Perhaps time to end the suffering and just out all the facts since the rebuttals have grown weak?
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ron_jeremy
Feb 3, 2005, 4:54 PM
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In reply to: If I had to wager a guess....I'd say What's up Morgan??? Dude everybody know's that Arrowhead is soft.....after all i hear they recruit from those sissy's over at Yosemite Helitack!! josh ps LF was 2 years ago....
Morgan? As in the infamous Morgan Pierre? Alas, I am not him and he is not me but I know him well.
"Why's your eye all red Nan?
And the timeless:
"If you aren't getting laid, it's time to lower your standards".
Unfortunately, nothing so brilliant ever passes my lips.
Ah yes, the sissies over at YH, quite the life they live. Almost as sorry ass as a Region Two Hotshot Crew, eh? Any crew that would hire two of the Gleason brothers, well hell, need I go on? One I could excuse for lack of judgement, but two?
But at least they're not Arrowhead. I could digress for hours on their specific lameness but I'll save us all the pain.
Sorry about the mistaken date on LF, Jon did say you were the best non homoerotic spooning ledge partner to ever hold him close, but in an entirely not gay way.
I say what happens on the wall, stays on the wall.
Carry on.
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 5:33 PM
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Dangle says...
In reply to: Just weird I guess.
Boy, you got that dead to rights.
Now, gentle thread reader, we are witnessing Dangle's classic avoidance behavior when it comes to discussing things (i.e. his own history as it involves others) he doesn't wish to.
All of a sudden we're off into Joseph Conrad. Maybe Dangle has a Heart of Darkness complex.
O.K.....let's do a recap as to why this thread took off. I promise it is the last time I will discuss this, but I am not going to let Dangle get away with his current effort to appear above it all and a victim.
Dangle and I used to be friends. Routes we did together, in chronological order: Moonlight Buttress (early ascent), Archangel (2nd ascent?), and Spaceshot (1st ascent). I used to have the dates hardwired in my memory, but Dangle's constant revisionism has so muddled things that I just can't recall the exact years (79-80 is my guess, but I'll check with my slide covers). After Spaceshot, Dangle and I remained friends, but I decided that I needed to climb with partners who were more interested in putting up the kind of routes I wanted to: pushing aid and free standards to a higher level. Ironically, I was probably one of the ONLY partners Dangle EVER had who he could 'get along with' on a route. He was, and obviously is, particular as to doing things properly and efficiently and, luckily, I was, if nothing else, on top of getting up walls in such a manner. As a result we had minimal hassles, but he would ceaselessly berate my partners who weren't quite up to his standards.
So I drifted apart from climbing with Dangle, although he and I, along with friends I brought to Zion, would hang together at times and keep in touch. At times I even helped him in his little projects, like hauling half his gear up Angels Landing so he could rappel preview the upper part of Prodigal Son. I was happy to do it. At the same time, however, I was critical of other things Dangle would do. These included overdrilling, leaving lots of gear stashed on routes in progress or no longer in progress and throwing garbage off of routes with the rationale that 'I'll pick it up at the base'. But I overlooked most of this because it wasn't worth breaking a friendship over.
Then some things 'changed', instigated in part by myself. Steve Chardon and I did the second ascent of Catharsis in the Kolob only a few weeks after it had been put up by Dangle and Pey. We freed all but about 50 feet or so. I was keenly upset over one relatively easy 5.9 CRACK that had something like 3 drilled holes to get over a cruxy section. Never mind you could have aided the crack. Free, it was hardly even a crux move, just standard crack climbing, and well-protected. Upon returning to the Visitor's Center and the filed topo books I annotated the topo with a red pen indicating what we had freed on the 2nd ascent and commenting on the lack of need for the drilled holes. I didn't obliterate anything, but wrote over in red pen and put our names and dates as to the 2nd ascent. Keep in mind that there is a second set of copies the park maintains (or maintained) and, of course, Dangle had his own original.
Sometime later the head ranger, a friend of mine, is talking to me and starts giving me grief over destroying Dangle's topo. Huh??? This ranger was not a climber and didn't understand that climbing notebooks are meant to contain UPDATES and ADDITIONAL information on routes. I calmly explained that it is traditional to update routes to the degree to which they have been subsequently freed. And, again, nothing was destroyed, only annotated. But what was most revealing, was that it bothered Dangle so much. This started a lot of tension between us, although we still remained 'friends'.
But another important 'break' occurred. Let's start with giving Dangle credit, as I always have and always will. Dangle chose the line Spaceshot, and I helped him put it up, in fact leading at least 70% plus of the first ascent, albeit with the bolt ladders already in place (that will be the subject of another story on this thread). Dangle also turned Steve Chardon and I onto the line of Shune's Buttress, but of course he never thought we would get up it, but we did (thanks Dangle). However, I subsequently came to note that ANY line I might see was already claimed by Dangle to be HIS by virtue of having SEEN it. So I came up with a really, really simple solution to this problem: stop talking to Dangle about routes in Zion. So I did. Never talked to him since about any first ascent in Zion.
Subsequent to that, 100% of the wall first ascents I've done in the park have been lines I've personally selected. ALL of them, despite what Dangle might say. I've also 'lost' a few that I had intended on doing, like the Smoots BEAUTIFUL 'Crack in the Cosmic Egg', and the recently climbed 'The Big Easy' on Moroni. Oh yeah, and I had rope-solo started what is now the 'Swiss-American' route on Angels Landing many years before Middendorff did it.
Anyway, I simply went about my business and started putting up routes, ignoring Dangle in the process. Apparently, this didn't sit too well. Incredibly, I heard stories about his whining about my 'just coming in and doing all these routes' and also 'he should put up routes other people can do'. Funny, I thought the point was to do routes and not worry about what othes were doing.
But we still hung together on occasion, and I had no personal animosity towards Dangle, despite that fact that he had alienated several of my partners in the past. I was almost PROUD of the fact that I could maintain our friendship through all of his histri-RON-ics.
Then, with Devo present, Dangle pulled the behavior that triggered his dragging me into court, which, as you might expect, terminated our friendship. (I'll tell that story in full a little later).
After our 'breakup', I ignored Dangle entirely. However, around the time of the court case Dangle had recently completed (with Devo) a veritable siege ascent of Equinox (or whatever the heck it is called) to the left of Spaceshot. Within a week or so of its first ascent, as a route with LOTS of aid in it, George Allen and I went up and did the complete second ascent all free with no hangs or falls, no pins, no fixed ropes, no topo. This was just after Dangle had screwed me with his lawsuit, so I decided to rub his face in it. I wrote up a new topo and renamed his Equinox 'Babes in the Sandbox'. You will note that, typical of Dangle's penchant to obscure any history involving me, he deceiptfully reports this route as all free mentioning only he and Devo as the first ascencionists. The particular reason for my ire about this route is that Dangle had left garbage, cans, and fixed ropes all over this route. Really bad form. Not to mention a lot of unnecessary drilling.
This upset Dangle. But that's his problem: he is the first to rag on other people but doesn't accept responsibility for what he does and what he propogates. Not to mention the fact that he had just royally screwed me in court.
So, even after the court case, I decide that ignoring Dangle completely is the best way to go. I never indulged myself in seeking ANY attention to my routes in Zion. I had several different people approach me for topos (Harlin and Middendorff among others) and my topos were always available from the Park guidebooks. So, silly me, I just went off doing routes, keeping to myself, neither writing articles nor making videos, nor attending AAC meetings, etc, etc. Never wrote or participated in the writing of ANY history. Never once saw any copy of any guide that went to press. No one asked my opinion. No problem. Low profile....I was just there to climb and have fun. I even, holding my breath, refused to respond to Dangle's increasing and incessant attacks against me.
What attacks, you ask? A truly bizarre pattern started to emerge. On at least half a dozen occasions I would get calls from friends and/or magazine editors asking about the vitriolic rantings of Dangle against me in PUBLIC, badmouthing me in front of anyone and everyone who would listen. After writing the article 'BG Goes to Zion' Michael Kennedy calls me up and says someone had gotten the idea I had written it about Scott Fischer and had written a scathing rebuttal. Huh?? I explained to Michael that it was a fictitious story (he already knew that he said) and had nothing to do with Scott, a guy I didn't even know and had NEVER EVEN HAD A CONVERSATION WITH OTHER THAN TO SAY HELLO. I recall how odd it was, I thought, that a silly article could trigger such wrath, the reader apparently, and ironically, missing entirely the put-down on pretntious climbers of ANY KIND and ANY PLACE. But I suppose none are so blind as those who cannot see.
Another time my good friend Bob Yoho calls me up from and AAC meeting and says, 'Hey Dave, there is this asshole walking around badmouthing you to anyone and everyone who will listen. I am about ready to punch the S.O.B. out.' Bob and I did the F.A. of 'Hello Marylou' together on the Angelino Wall in Zion.
Another time I get the 2nd hand information that the editors of one climbing magazine nervously had to edit out considerable portions of a Dangle article about Zion because of what they considered to be 'libelous slander' against yours truly.
This had gone on for almost 20 years folks, and I have never ONCE taken the bait and responded.
Now...getting to the crux....let's examine why Dangle behaves this way. I don't write, don't talk about Dangle, don't go to any climbing functions or trade shows or movie events. I don't participate in Zion histories (although I informally participated in a totally impromptu recent video interview by someone whom I won't name so that Dangle won't cause him any 'problems') I just climb and put up routes and ignore him. Apparently this upsets him, but why?
Could it be that?:
1) I've put up more new wall routes in Zion than he has (20 plus)
2) My routes are all of a higher standard of both aid and free climbing than his routes.
2) I climb with an array of great folks I am happy to call my friends and climbing partners many of whom, happen to be, famous as well.
3) I've remained as low-profile as I can be (and somehow this is twisted into a conspiracy on my part to re-write Zion history!!????)
4) I ignore Dangle as irrelevant to my climbing and my life (until now).
5) I'm one of the only people who has told Dangle to bug-off to his face.
So, why respond now?
Simple. Someone told me that Dangle was participating in a thread shitting all over me. Sure enough I checked it out, and there he is blathering on in a fantasy world where I am 'lying' about routes and trying to write Scott Fishcer out of Zion climbing history. Truly, truly, bizarre and disturbing behavior on Dangle's part. It is all made up, all in his head.
Well, Dangle blew it this time, because I am not only going to throw it back at his face for the patent B.S. that it is, but further he has opened himself up to an exposure of his sordid and sad history of behaviors and actions which will now find a public forum. No one deserves more of an upcommance than he.
And, most interestingly, you will note that Dangle started this mudslinging, has been doing so for YEARS, and now when confronted by his own bad behavior (remember, in this thread he admitted to repeatedly lying about who he did the FA of Spaceshot with) he tries to repeatedly change the subject. Thread readers will note that he hasn't responded to even a SINGLE criticism lodged against him.
Stay tuned for installments on 'the court case' and 'Timbertop'.
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 5:43 PM
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To Ron_Jeremy,
Please...stop... you're making me blush.....
Omak Crack (Phil Gleasons original name for it incidently) is, I think, one of the 5-star rotes in Washington.
I was putting up all of those Omak routes in a complete void, because the local guys weren't yet putting up routes at that level, and it is always disconcerting to rate stuff without confirmation. So, sorry if Omak appears to be a sandbag.
Good luck on Gravitons....another fine, fine one pitcher. If you're going for an onsight, be SURE to rest and shake out at the locker one handed hand jam just before the cruxy finish. If you don't you are SUNK.
I am pleased as punch that someone is climbing those routes. They are really nice!
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 5:43 PM
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To Ron_Jeremy,
Please...stop... you're making me blush.....
Omak Crack (Phil Gleasons original name for it incidently) is, I think, one of the 5-star rotes in Washington.
I was putting up all of those Omak routes in a complete void, because the local guys weren't yet putting up routes at that level, and it is always disconcerting to rate stuff without confirmation. So, sorry if Omak appears to be a sandbag.
Good luck on Gravitons....another fine, fine one pitcher. If you're going for an onsight, be SURE to rest and shake out at the locker one handed hand jam just before the cruxy finish. If you don't you are SUNK.
I am pleased as punch that someone is climbing those routes. They are really nice!
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 5:46 PM
Post #152 of 667
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To Ron_Jeremy,
Please...stop... you're making me blush.....
Omak Crack (Phil Gleasons original name for it incidently) is, I think, one of the 5-star rotes in Washington.
I was putting up all of those Omak routes in a complete void, because the local guys weren't yet putting up routes at that level, and it is always disconcerting to rate stuff without confirmation. So, sorry if Omak appears to be a sandbag.
Good luck on Gravitons....another fine, fine one pitcher. If you're going for an onsight, be SURE to rest and shake out at the locker one handed hand jam just before the cruxy finish. If you don't you are SUNK.
I am pleased as punch that someone is climbing those routes. They are really nice!
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dmckj
Feb 3, 2005, 5:58 PM
Post #153 of 667
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correction.....make that 'comuppance'
sorry for the mutliple posts...the web site freezes up on postings
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dmckj
Feb 4, 2005, 12:05 AM
Post #154 of 667
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"The Courtship of Rhan" - A sordid tale of Legal Intrigue
When: Long ago and far away, but, wait, that couldn't be accurate because my only purpose in life is to write people out of Zion climbing history and lie about my first ascents. That being said....let's set this in the early-mid 80's.
Where: From the hallowed canyon's of Zion to the cold hard impersonal concrete steps of the Washington County Courthouse.
Why: I'm still trying to figure that one out.
It began, as do most sordid tales, innocently enough. The early winter shadows were settling in across Zion's steepest and deepest faces, and I was about to abandon my Quixotic quest of finding a partner for one last wall. Springdale, far from the being the new hotspot of the politically-correct-on-a-sandstone-vacation, was shutting down for a long winter's slow-spell.
Rhan and I found ourselves parked at the Bit and Spur, nursing our 3.2 beer, and talking about not much in particular. I was ready to push off back to Tucson.....but Rhan had an idea
"The snow should be great at Brian Head after this storm blows through. Why don't we go skiiing?" said Rhan, pouring himself another.
"Good idea Rhan. Would be great to hit some fresh powder."
"O.K., let's talk tomorrow, give me a call." said Ron.
"Don't have a credit card or a place to dial direct Ron." (these being the pre-phone card days) said I.
"No problem, call me collect for just a minute and we'll pick the place and time to meet." said Rhan magnaminously..............
The storm had already started pushing through the Kolob and was descending into the main canyon. The boys had a plan and Dave would make that fateful phone call..........
(cheezy organ music building to a closing crescendo....)
stay tuned for the next installment...
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bsmoot
Feb 4, 2005, 2:32 AM
Post #155 of 667
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Zion in the late 70’s…The Wild Wild West
Terry and I were psyched. It was spring break and we couldn’t stop thinking about this climb. It had a single splitter that ran almost the entire distance of this wall in Zion. It was 1979. The year earlier had been a successful one for me in the Valley and in Zion…we were ready.
No sooner had we arrived in Zion, at the base of the splitter, than this climber mysteriously appeared and announced that we couldn’t do the climb we were drooling over. “I'LL SHOOT YOUR ROPES IF YOU START FIXING!”. Suddenly, our spirits sank. “Stay off MY route”, he said. Geez, we had come to a National Park, paid our fee, the weather was perfect, and now we couldn’t do our climb. Being two scared teenagers, we obliged. I think if we had shown up at 3:00 in the morning, this climber would have found us…it was kind of spooky.
Walking around depressed, a guy named Rhan came by and suggested we try a quality new route he’d just put up near the Temple of Sinawava. With nothing better to do, we took a look. “Wow! That does look good.” There was even a perfect splitter that bypassed an off-width crack. Rhan said we had to climb this route with him because we didn’t have enough large pins…this was the pre-friend era. Although we seriously questioned this guy, somehow, insanity took over and we decided to all climb it together.
The night before the climb, it was quiet at the near-empty Watchman Campground. In the 70’s, the town of Springdale was dead. There were no lights and no places to go. Unlike Yosemite, there was no climbing scene in Zion. You were lucky to even see another climber.
Then the silence was broken...“WHO SPILLED WATER ON MY SLEEPING BAG?" Terry’s older brother quickly fessed up. Rhan exploded with a deluge of profanity “you dumb #%*#,” getting right up into his face. "I'm sorry, I know I'm a dumb #%*#". As the tantrum got louder and louder, so did the apologies. Rhan wouldn't let it go...it went on and on. Something bad was gonna happen. Terry’s brother was bigger & stronger than little Rhan. He could have drop-kicked him out of the campground. Suddenly, one of us said “you can borrow my sleeping bag tonight." Things quickly calmed down after this was said…whew!
The next day, without helmets, we climbed up a beautiful, dark corner. The rock was hard--in fact so hard that I broke the heads off of several pitons while cleaning. They were welded. I yelled up to Rhan “why did you overdrive these pins!” “Come on! This is the Desert”, he shouted. Higher up, from our sling belay, Terry free climbed a long section of the vertical crack, running it out because of the difficulty of placing a pin…great lead. Next, as I was leading a perfect 1" crack, I suddenly got some sand under my contact lens. Yelling for tention, I slithered down to fix the problem. Rhan yelled up "Solo climbers don't ask for tention". As we climbed, Rhan critiqued us. We returned the favor as he climbed.
We reached a cool bivy ledge that night. Rhan, being the shortest, picked the best part of the ledge. Later that night, after smoking some of “the good stuff,” he grabbed my brand new 35mm camera and threatened to throw it off into space. I pleaded with him not too, and finally he handed it over. I slept well that night, but who doesn’t sleep soundly when you’re young! In the morning, after cleaning the sand out of my eyes, I started up the last pitch. The regular route to the right looked contrived, with some aid, so I free climbed left up a more natural crack line. Grunting up a typical Zion off-width/squeeze, I wearily pulled over the top.
Before we left the summit, we heaved all of our pins off the rim. The thought of rapping the route was almost unheard of in those days, so we continued up thru brush, deep snow, cactus and unprotected, loose, soft rock for another 1,300 feet to the top of the East Rim. The view was magnificent. Rhan wanted to take the short hike out to Observation Point. When we declined to accompany him, he went ballistic... We bolted to escape the wrath of Rhan. He continued out to the point alone to smoke more of the “the good stuff.” On the descent,
Terry and I reflected on our adventure…the good and bad rock, the splitters, the off-widths, runnouts, the sand, the solitude… guns, arguments, heavy pin racks, our own insanity and most importantly, the incredible beauty…Ah yes, the wild west.
(This post was edited by bsmoot on May 2, 2009, 2:19 PM)
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dmckj
Feb 4, 2005, 4:46 AM
Post #156 of 667
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Serious interlude...
This message is primarily to Devo or to anyone else who knows George Allen (including Dangle).
George is in the advanced stages of terminal colon cancer and there is no good prognosis.
To those who care to give a call of support and friendship his number is:
303-730-8900 Room 709
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dmckj
Feb 4, 2005, 5:13 AM
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........cheezy subdued, but inviting, organ music.......
We last left our duo on the verge of an impending snowstorm.....well, it hit hard, and this was the time to get some fresh tracks...
Ring, ring....
'Yes maam, I'd like to make a collect phone call. To whom?.....mmm... tell him it's Warren Harding".
(historical fact: during what in the future may be referred to as Dangle and Dave's 'friendship years', these two would typically identify themselves as either Don Whillans or Warren Harding. This was code for the fact that it was one of us)
'Sir, I have a collect call from a Warren Harding....do you accept the charges' said the operator, not having ANY realization whatsoever what she was in the thick of (LOUD organ music to set the tension of the moment)
'Yes, I do.' said Rhan.
'So Rhan, looks great for skiing tomorrow. Where and when shall we meet?' said I
'O.K., I'll meet you at the interstate junction at 8 a.m., park my truck, and we'll take yours'.
'Done. See ya tomorrow.' said I ..................................
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rocknroll
Feb 4, 2005, 7:52 AM
Post #158 of 667
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Excellent posts Dave and bsmoot. You have all behaved honorably in the face of Rhan's Us and Them attitude.
Call me a masochist, but some how, I still like the guy.
What a character! So entertaining...
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ammon
Feb 4, 2005, 10:51 AM
Post #159 of 667
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WoW!! Great material....
Wish you guys had some pics... especially when Devo swooped down with his cape-a-flowin...
Funny shit!!!
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bsmoot
Feb 4, 2005, 3:45 PM
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A few more Zion stories possibly upcoming:
"It was a Dark & Stormy Night...A close Encounter"
or
"5.11 granite slab climbers storm Zion"
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bsmoot
Feb 4, 2005, 4:40 PM
Post #161 of 667
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A few more thoughts possibly upcoming:
"It was a Dark & Stormy Night...A close Encounter"
or
"5.11 granite slab climbers storm Zion"
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dmckj
Feb 4, 2005, 5:06 PM
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'The Courtship of Rhan'
Mini-installment III: 'Making Tracks'
(light-hearted musical intro, blithely detached from the impending morasse of falling dominos in play....)
Rhan and Dave bumped northwards along the dark frozen highway, the ruddy cliffs of the Kolob just barely rising above the fronting ridge. Heck, it was warm, we were relaxed, and we were going skiing. This was more fun than climbing. No stress.
Dave's 4WD came in handy as they skidded across the Brian Head parking lot. Rhan was already to get down to the 'herbal essence', and it wasn't even quite yet 10 a.m.
Ticket's bought, our two protagonists were treated to a day of outrageous powder and no crowds. Nothing like skiing during the weekdays. Dave worked on his nascient tele-technique (hey, this was the early 80's), taking numerous face and body plants. Rhan worked on his patented point-the-skis-down-the-hill-and-go bomber technique. Between Dave's falls and Rhan's herbal moments, they usually made it down the slope at about the same time.
Hey, thought Dave, skiing with Rhan is a hoot. None of this B.S. climbing stuff to get in the way of having some fun!
Later that afternoon they stopped to visit their old friend George Harttlemeyer in his ski shop at Brian Head, to regale them with tales of the ascent of K2 (or whatever) that almost was, but wasn't quite...
(Overdub: Contented, enjoying the fresh air and champagne powder, it could of ended on this fine note for our two friends...Rhan could have converted to fundamentalist Mormonism, corralled 3 wives from Cedar City, and moved onto the Arizona strip where he could prosper as a small gun salesman with 'experience'. Dave could have met a lonely early-middle-aged real-estate matron from Malibu who was only looking for a 'good man', or, in Dave's case, maybe just an 'O.K.' man, to shower her wealth of material and bodily pleasures on..... This could have been but, sadly, was not to be..............)
Dave's blue Toyota glided off the interstate exit into the growing darkness of the snow shrouded juniper's, crunching across the cold snow to a stop in front of Rhan's rig.
'Hey Rhan, what a great day of skiing!'
'Couldn't have been much much better'
'So I'll be headng back to Tucson, and we'll see you in the spring sometime, o.k.?'
'Maybe before then, but by then for sure.' said Rhan
So...the fateful collect phone call paid off in a day of pleasure for the boys. Dave had burned a good two-thirds of a tank of gas, about $18.00 or so. Dave didn't care, Rhan didn't mention it.
Net balance: Dave 18.00 on gas, Rhan 3.25 (or so) on a collect phone call.
.....Fast forward many months to a prime Zion climbing season in the following year (don't recall if it was spring of fall, but Devo has the court papers) ....
Dave has brought his climbing buddy George Allen from Tucson along to do some new routes, and I have this vague recollection Sherman the Vermin was with us for a short early spell as well (he had the sense to clear out early). Anyway, the birds were singing, sky blue, rock warm and gritty to the touch as ever, etc, etc, etc....... Dave was anticipating, at some point, the arrival of more members of the San Remo climbing team. He was not to be disappointed.... for off in the distance the unmistakeable camo brown of Rhans 4x4 sports rig came rolling into view....
'Hey Rhan, how's it going? Hi Devo!, good to see you.' said I.
Pleasantries exchanged, Rhan off-loaded Devo into our little group.....
At this point I swear I heard a thunderclap from the heavens as the personification of cruel and immovable fate sought to smite our happy little clan with a chalk-encrusted accusatory finger ..........A Greek tragedy was in the making........
Rhan heard the thunderclap as well and thought 'what the f'%&$?, doesn't look like rain...'
(stay tuned.....)
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dmckj
Feb 4, 2005, 5:45 PM
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Gentle thread reader,
An enormous amount of deep spiritual creative talent goes into the production of each mini-installment of 'The Courtship of Rhan'. We'd like to think of it as a modern-day thread reincarnation of Citizen Kane, but perhaps this is merely the hubris of the first morning coffee jolt.
Upon finishing each segment, Mr. dmckj is left physically, emotionally, (yes, and sexually) drained to the point that he must sequester himself into a dark room because of his extreme emotional vulnerability after peak moments of creativity.
Accordingly, we are attempting to mix things up a bit and continue with some more upbeat and never-before-revealed 'Tall Tales from Timbertop'. Our creative producers are at this moment in negotiations with Mr. Devo on this matter.
We apologize in advance for any untimely delays....and hope this will not affect your decision to keep paying your monthly service fees...
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dmckj
Feb 5, 2005, 2:25 AM
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.......man....no one is taking up the slack....
..to those of you waiting for the next installment of 'The Courting of Rhan'...you'll have to wait a little longer...
meanwhile, some historical filler material to keep this thread on theme..
Origin of Zion route names (for starters)....
Moonlight Buttress: I don't know, go ask Jeff Lowe or Mike Weiss
Spaceshot: It was Dangle's lead off of Earth Orbit Ledge. He went to the edge, looked down, and said 'whoahh!!' Hence Dangle's name Spaceshot, because that is what you get when you look down between your legs on that pitch. If you read his account of our climbing this, he comments on me sending a bolt of electric energy through the rope when he looked back at me and said something like 'I'm gonna have to drill this. Looks might we might have to settle here for another night....'. He's right, I sure as heck was going to get off the climb THAT day. We did, and had a luxurious bivy with fire in the upper bowl.
Empty Pages (on Angel's Landing): Traffic is one of my favorite groups and Empty Pages (John Barlecorn Must Die) one of my favorite tunes, partial lyrics as follows....
'Found someone who can comfort me, but there are always exceptions
And she's good at appearing sane, but I just want you to know
She's the one makes me feel so good when everything is against me
Picks me up when I'm feeling down, so I've got something to show
Staring at empty pages, centered 'round the same plot
Staring at empty pages, flowing along in the ages'
In the middle of this climb, one certainly feels as if one is staring at Empty Pages of sandstone.
Lovelace a.k.a. Fang Wall (East Temple, Pine Creek): I believe Dangle named the spire up Pine Creek 'The Fang'. Somewhat ironically he, and others, tried to apply that name to the climb I did with Gary Grey. Sorry....the name is 'Lovelace', love it or leave it. Why....well, as Gary Grey explained in the '84 article, the widish crack at the top of the route (part of which Dangle named the Cavity, a good name which I accept) sort of hovers above the Fang Spire which sort of looks like a large penis. Lovelace....penis...you get the picture (maybe most of you aren't even old enough to know about the movie 'Deep Throat', god forbid). But all of my route names have several meanings, so you can take the sweet and nice one if you wish.
Golden Years (Kolob): Steve Chardon and I did the second ascent of Catharsis and the first ascent of this route (better than Catharsis and, for that matter, just about any other route I know of) in a five-day push from car-to-car. While putting up this climb it was apparent to me that if we were able to simply walk up and knock off a classic like this, then surely these were the 'Golden Years' of Zion climbing. An outstanding route that will go all free and sees ZERO traffic.
more later......
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ron_jeremy
Feb 5, 2005, 1:13 PM
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I'm the proud owner of a "I CHOKED LINDA LOVELACE!" t-shirt.
Not a Zion first ascent, but hey, we're all good at something, right?
Continue, please.
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dmckj
Feb 5, 2005, 3:07 PM
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Finally!!....
A thoughtful and timely response from one of the upstanding and virtuous members of the thread...
Wear that shirt with PRIDE, as I know I would!
O.K...here's another quick one...
Route Name Origins.....
I was visiting John Middendorff back when he lived in Hurricane, Utah (ultimately a little too sleepy for John me thinketh). Our plan was to bag a few new lines I had picked out. One, in the Kolob, particularly intrigued me since having climbed Catharsis and Golden Years long before. I had made the mistake of telling Rhan about this one, and he had later made the mistake of 'prevaricating' and telling me the Smoot brothers had later knocked it off (not true).
Anyway, I had some bagels I wanted to heat up and John, living the spartan life, didn't have a toaster. So, I fired up the broiler on his gas stove and jumped into the shower, asking John to watch the bagels. Upon leaving the shower I noticed this really, truly awful smell, sort of like someone had just pissed all over the inside of John's house. Not wanting to be the ungracious visitor I said nothing, thinking just maybe something had died somewhere during the night.
John had extracted the bagels and schmeared them with something resembling cream cheese and jelly. They were really good. Just as I was chewing literally my last bite, John looked at me a said 'did you notice that funny smell?'. Relieved I could now talk about it I said 'yeah, what the heck IS that?'. 'Well, there were mouse turds in the oven.........so, would you have eaten that bagel if I had told you that before??' I just about gagged.
Anyway, I told John that this was a truly inspirational name for a route, and, it being summer and fairly hot, we applied it to our new route on what we named, appropriately, 'Mouse Tower' in the Kolob between Shuntavi and Timbertop. 'Mouse Turds in the Oven' we were indeed Grade V, 5.11, A2
stay tuned....
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epic_ed
Feb 5, 2005, 5:07 PM
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Oh, dear lord -- that's revolting. And funny as hell.
Ed
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skinner
Feb 5, 2005, 9:36 PM
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This thread has really peaked my interest in Zion, while reading some beta I came across this; Here's a few snippets that I found pretty funny.
In reply to: Beta for Moonlight Buttress, Zion Pitch 5: Roof/Chimney. First continue up crack, pass roof (#8 hex used here) to awkward chimney. Pass this one to your partner! Easy walk off...follow trail to the right until you reach a paved trail. Go left to saddle junction where Angel's landing trail gets technical. Turn right and follow trail for 45 minutes to ground. It's great to stash some water here for use while you either wait for your partner to walk to the Angel's Landing parking lot to get the car or until you can convince a tourist to give your smelly corpse a lift. Go to Bit and Spur in Springdale and buy yourself a beer |
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rockprodigy
Feb 6, 2005, 2:55 AM
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No! Dave, you just crushed me...I was sure "Golden Years" was named for the classic David Bowie song which, of course, was written for Elvis Presley shortly before he died mysteriously.
Say what you want, but I'm going to stick with my story, which I like better (hmmm...seems like there's a lot of that going on around here).
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dmckj
Feb 6, 2005, 6:14 AM
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You're right, I like your 'Golden Years' story better.....
But, I might add, Elvis didn't die...and word is the song Golden Years was beamed to David Bowie (whose real name is actually David Jones...do, do, do, do) by Elvis from the spaceship that took him to 'the next level'.
I suppose next I'm going to crush your theory as to where the name 'Hello Mary Lou' (Oak Creek, Angelino Wall) came from.
Boy, I hate to shatter illusions....
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dmckj
Feb 6, 2005, 5:01 PM
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.......next installment coming soon......
Meanwhile, more route name origins...
'Wrath of Rhan' (Temple of Sinawava): This represents a mispelling of the 'Wrath of Khan' or....it could mean something else? I'll let thread readers decide. This route is located in the magnificent Temple of Sinawava, on the buttress immediately to the right of the ephemeral waterfall, and is in such a spectacular location that it is well worth doing. It is a little dirty in the middle cracks, but this will clean up with some more ascents. The last pitch to the summit is a full on fun 5.9 hand crack. Walk off via the West Rim (Angel's Landing) trail, a mere 15 minutes from the top of the route.
'Silmaril' (Watchman): I can still recall walking the base of this route and looking up to see a surreal looking perfect crack in a never-ending dihedral about half way up the cliff. Little could I believe that this would go all free on the first ascent as perfect hands. This crack is the center and best of 3 cracks. 'Silmaril' is from Tolkien lore, and represents THE ultimate jewel of, I think, 3 jewels. This route is a jewel.
whassup Devo???
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bsmoot
Feb 6, 2005, 8:10 PM
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5.11 granite slab climbers storm Zion
It was a hot spring day in Zion. Les Ellison was on the sharp end, carefully nailing his way up a thin blade crack. It was 1980, and this was to be the first ascent of Magic Carpet Ride – IV 5.9 A3+, a steep route up-canyon from Touchstone. Suddenly, PING! PING! Whoosh. Clank! He had just taken a short plunge. As Les gathered his wits, wiping the sweat off of his forehead, he heard shrieks of laughter drift up from below. It was Dangle, floating down the Virgin River in his rubber raft. He was naked, shouting up all kinds of taunts to Les up baking on the wall…he was splashing in the cool water, generally giving his friend a hard time.
At the time, Les and I were working on a guidebook to Little Cottonwood Canyon, in Utah. Most of the quality granite climbing was slab stuff. Several years later, two of our friends who had climbed a lot of hard granite face and slab routes announced to me one day that they were going to Zion to climb Cerberus (now called Touchstone). Knowing these guys quite well, I was taken back. “You haven’t done any aid have you?” They replied, ”No, but it’s supposed to be easy aid.” Hmm, my mind reeled. Here I had done LOTS of pitches of aid on short crags for practice, paid my dues…before attempting my first wall, and these guys were just going to run up Cerberus!
Somehow, I happened to be in Zion at the same time these friends of mine were going to storm Zion. It was now morning and I was all beat to hell after a typical wall thrashing. We were enjoying a post-climb relaxation day. We were curious to see our friends on Cerberus. In fact, you rarely saw another climber on a wall in those days. When you did, they were usually quite worthy…most had spent time on the big stone. Dangle, for example, had done the second solo ascent of the Shield.
Tourists weren’t familiar with climbers like they now are, and likely thought, “What are these poor wretches doing here??” As Warren Harding said, “They thought we were poorly dressed fisherman”.
Stopping by, we noticed they were about 20 feet up the first pitch. They weren’t moving. After a while, we left to take a short hike and scope new routes. “Wow this place has lots of cracks!” Four hours later these climbers were only a little higher. The other was now leading. Dangle was present with his patented bull horn, shouting up instructions: “You need to place the nut BEFORE you clip your aider to it!... Use a #4 stopper there…You need to step higher…it’s only A1.” Ignoring Dangle, contemplating the exposure, I heard one of them say, “This nut just sank an inch! Whoa! Oh no, the one below me just fell out! WATCH ME!” Near the end of the day, they finally made it to the top of the first pitch. Dangle was still there…"DO YOU NEED A RESCUE? DO YOU KNOW HOW TO GET DOWN??” Being safely on the ground, I was enjoying the harassment.
The next day, with their tails between their legs, they abandoned the climb. Although thoroughly schooled, my friends would later go on to climb big walls…though mostly granite.
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epic_ed
Feb 7, 2005, 1:38 AM
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Brian -- great tale. Damn, guys. I'm blow away by how many routes exits in Zion that I've never even heard of. Dave, what does "Wrath of Rhan" go at? How many pitches? Sounds like a stellar route -- one of many in the canyon.
Ed
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dmckj
Feb 7, 2005, 2:59 AM
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Wrath of Rhan V 5.10 A2+/3 Paul Turecki and I (have to check my topo for date)
I met Paul Turecki while trolling for a partner in the Zion campground. Had never met him from Adam. He was hanging with his girlfriend at the time (Nancy Pfeiffer??). I guess I didn't alienate him from that first ascent because he later came back and climbed 'The Tao of Light' with Middendorff.
For a total rush I would suggest doing Wrath of Rhan during a good strong snowmelt so that the waterfall is going strong. Might be sort of like climbing the Misty Wall in The Big Valley. I suggest looking for a better start than the one I chose. It was certainly the easiest, but there might be a more quality way up to the bench.
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milktoast
Feb 7, 2005, 3:28 AM
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Wow, D.J. and Mr.O working out the wrinkels of past Zion climbing history!! Who is the casual observer to believe?? Dave, keep the stories coming.
What is the story behind the boulderes with large drilled pockets?? Could a climber have been responsible for such destruction ?? Anyone know?
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dmckj
Feb 7, 2005, 4:40 AM
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Ahhh....
the thread now has some intrigue...
Who is 'milktoast'? and how does he know about the drilled boulders?
What is his place in this whole sordid affair?
Does he have dark tales of his own?
Sounds like time for TALES OF CRIME AGAINST NATURE....
tomorrow that is...
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rockprodigy
Feb 7, 2005, 3:32 PM
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Ah yes, you are quite right about Mr. Bowie's real name...funny I hadn't made the connection before you brought it up...I thought your name sounded familiar. He has a few other aliases as well: Ziggy Stardust and Arnold Corns, among others.
If any of you ever make it up to Ogden (home of many notorious Zion climbers), you will find a plethora of routes named in honor of David Jones.
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dingus
Feb 7, 2005, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: Ahhh.... the thread now has some intrigue... Who is 'milktoast'? and how does he know about the drilled boulders?
Maybe from the Mormon branch of the family?
DMT
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dmckj
Feb 7, 2005, 4:40 PM
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'The Courtship of Rhan'
Mini-mini installment IV -- 'Show Me Da Money'
We last left our protagonists reverberating with the ominous thunderclap and the over-chalked finger of fate.... Rhan heading home, Dave and Co. camped out. None of them had any idea what was about to go down....
Then, the catalyst......
George Allen sort of starting eyeing Devo with a modest disdain and sidled up to Dave saying ....'Dave, that Devo guy owes me some money from a climbing trip we went on together. I don't want him here if he isn't going to pay his own way'.
'Geez, George, you know you're right, Devo is chronically short of cash, but as long as he can pay his way he's more than welcome here. Why don't you guys just work it out between yourselves, O.K.?' I rolled my eyes, because I was here to have fun and not negotiate over petty change.
So, George had a longish brother to brother or father to son chat, Devo looking a bit chagrined, George looking a bit righteous. I was happy because the long and short of it was I didn't hear another word on the topic. I thought the situation was over. Exactly at this point I heard a giant cosmic 'HAH!!!!!!' reverberating and rolling through the canyon walls. I swear it triggered some minor rockfalls, and maybe even shifted some of Rhan's welded drilled baby angles in their safe and tight little holes.
I slept well that night, the sleep of the damned!!! All night long, however, I could hear, or was I just imagining?, the chalk from the finger of fate settling on my tent like an early light winter's snow.
The next morning broke clear and beautiful, but nothing out of the ordinary for Zion. Slow to get our asses in gear we were just getting whatever plans we had going when Rhan's camo rig once again rolls into view..... 'Gee, graced again by his presence', I thought.
Rhan swaggered out of his rig, and went over to Devo for a little chat. Devo talked long enough that I was sure he was relating George's little lecture from the afternoon before. I didn't want to know or hear anything about it.
Then....the insanity broke full open, like the breaking of the ice dams in the scablands of Washington at the end of the last ice age, sending torrents of irrepresable bad ju-ju over our protagonists. Not unlike stepping into fresh dog poop with your new high-tech Nikes that have a zillion treads in them and then wondering how the heck you are going to get it all out, or at least avoid the smell. Yeah, sort of like that.....
Rhan swaggered over to me and positioned himself manacingly in my path....
'Well, if you're going to hassle Devo over money, I want you to pay me back the (approx.) $3.25 you owe me!!!' said Dangle.
'First off, I'm not hassling Devo for money, and secondly what the heck are you talking about' said I. I felt blindsided. What was this crazed man talking about?
'You made a collect phone call to me (insert exact # of months here, not less than 3 months, not more than 10 months) and it cost $3.25, and I want you to pay me for it.'
Now my first, and current thought, about all of this was 'what an unbelievable fucking asshole!' Luckily, I maintained my cool and replied, my rising anger seething just underneath the surface, 'you mean the collect phone call you told me to make to you so I could take YOU skiing?...you mean THAT one?'.
'Yeah!' said Dangle, really thinking he was just on top of the world with this pathetic attempt at retribution.
I quickly decided it was well worth paying Dangle just to tell him to 'F%&K OFF', so I reached for my wallet and started to pull out a $5 from which I would ask for no change. As I started to do this it occurred to me that life, already being cushy, should not be so easy for Rhan...so I said 'See this $5 Dangle? This is for you for the friggin phone call, but first I want to see a COPY OF THE PHONE BILL WITH THE ITEM HIGHLIGHTED, then I'll be happy to pay you, never mind the fact that you never chipped in for a penny of the expenses to go skiing.'
O.K.....here comes the good part....
'Until that time, Rhan, get your friggin' ass out of this campsite RIGHT NOW!' I said, about ready to deck the guy.
With his best blustery swagger Rhan replied 'YOU can't throw me out of this campsite. It's not yours.'
That was it. I had reached the breaking point. I looked at Devo and at George and said 'Anyone who is staying in this campsite is agreed that Rhan has to get his ass out of here immediately, or you are no longer welcome in this campsite! Am I clear?' George, of course, was a given. He thought Rhan was (and George being jewish has a right to say this) a real schmuck. Devo looked nervous, but quickly nodded his head in up and down agreement, realizing his only other option was to hang with Rhan. Case closed.
'O.K. Rhan' said I, 'I am going to put the money for this campsite in the pay slot right now. If you're still here when I get back I'll report you to the Rangers for harrassment, and we KNOW how happy they'll be to throw you out of the Park'. It was, of course, an ace in the hole. If there was one issue everyone in law enforcement in the Park could agree upon was Rhan was a nuisance, to put it mildly. In fact a former Ranger had once told me he had seen Rhan riding on a horse and said 'First time I've seen two asses on one horse.' (for lawsuit purposes Rhan I of course have the name and address and phone number of this Ranger...a very credible person I might add).
Not surprisingly, as I returned from paying for the site, Rhan's camo-mobile sped off out of the campground.....but as he left I could see an odd vengful gleam in his eye......what did he have up his sleeve?.....were we finally at peace in the campground?...........
'HAH!!'...there was that booming, mocking laugh again, shifting more of Rahn's pitons in their little holes and marking the POINT OF NO RETURN FOR THE FORMER FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN DJ AND RHAN.....
The big chalked up finger of fate trembled in the sky for a moment, then withdrew, possibly to merely pick it's nose while waiting for the next installment.......'Drinking Beer I See'....
stay tuned....
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rocknroll
Feb 7, 2005, 6:47 PM
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How time clouds the memories (or maybe it was all that weed I smoked with Rhan). I swear the exchange happened at night , but you jostled a few brain cells into position with the small details -the five dollar bill that would have ended your troubles, and that you hadn't actually paid for the site. I better come clean right now...although we climbed headache crack together, I don't think i was there when you got the summons, or was I.
This is why, dear readers, the Timbertop story has remained an elusive mystery on this thread. I don't remember! Perhaps I'll skip the introductory details like stepping on a nail in the mule shed the day before we went in on the animals; the fiesty beast peeing on my injured foot...I'll take it from the moment Rhan and Mark Pey returned after walking out to go to court. I thought that there was no way any judge would let such a frivoulous amount of money clog up the courts system. I was sure Dave had planned an intelligent defense that preyed on Rhan's sordid past and character. As they walked up I asked the verdict. I could see by the looks on thier faces that one person was happy about the verdict and the other wasn't...but I am getting ahead of the story...Dave, if you will, continue..
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rocknroll
Feb 7, 2005, 6:53 PM
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How time clouds the memories (or maybe it was all that weed I smoked with Rhan). I swear the exchange happened at night , but you jostled a few brain cells into position with the small details -the five dollar bill that would have ended your troubles, and that you hadn't actually paid for the site. I better come clean right now...although we climbed headache crack together, I don't think i was there when you got the summons, or was I.
This is why, dear readers, the Timbertop story has remained an elusive mystery on this thread. I don't remember! Perhaps I'll skip the introductory details like stepping on a nail in the mule shed the day before we went in on the animals; the fiesty beast peeing on my injured foot...I'll take it from the moment Rhan and Mark Pey returned after walking out to go to court. I thought that there was no way any judge would let such a frivoulous amount of money clog up the courts system. I was sure Dave had planned an intelligent defense that preyed on Rhan's sordid past and character. As they walked up I asked the verdict. I could see by the looks on thier faces that one person was happy about the verdict and the other wasn't...but I am getting ahead of the story...Dave, if you will, continue..
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dmckj
Feb 7, 2005, 7:20 PM
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Hey Devo,
Now we're clearing out the cobwebs!!
No, you weren't there for the you-know-what....but I don't want to give it away because it will be in the next installment...... 'Drinking Beer, Are Ya?'
meanwhile, Devo, it would be great to slip into the start of Timbertop......
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dmckj
Feb 7, 2005, 7:28 PM
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Devo,
No...it was definitely in the morning, because the events went down the very same afternoon, an amazing testament to Dangle's single-minded determination to, as you say, 'clog up the court system', to settle a dispute over something over which, if anyone should have been after anyone, it should have been me asking Dangle for money to pay for our ski trip.
But, hey, don't want to give too much away....
C'mon thread readers, let's help Devo get back on the Timbertop Tale
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imnotclever
Feb 7, 2005, 7:56 PM
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(chanting) Timbertop, Timbertop, Timbertop ....
(chanting) 'Drinking Beer, Are Ya?', 'Drinking Beer, Are Ya?', 'Drinking Beer, Are Ya?' ....
Enchanting isn't it.
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milktoast
Feb 7, 2005, 9:58 PM
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I agree with imnotclever........ TIM BER TOP, TIM BER TOP, TIM BER TOP....
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dmckj
Feb 7, 2005, 10:40 PM
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Devo,
Looks like we have an OVERWHELMING 100% of gentle thread readers pressing for a Timbertop installment.
Meanwhile, I must retire to my dark room.....
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dmckj
Feb 7, 2005, 10:44 PM
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BTW, 'Milktoast' should reveal himself somewhat.
Does he have a tale to share on 'D.J.' or 'Rhan' or, perchance, BOTH??
Where will this lead us?
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caughtinside
Feb 7, 2005, 10:49 PM
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This gentle reader eagerly awaits the tale of Timbertop! Outstanding and delightfully colorful stories, gentlemen! Bravo!
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tenesmus
Feb 7, 2005, 10:57 PM
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In reply to: 5.11 granite slab climbers storm Zion
I'm a dumbass.
To my suprise, it was almost as hard in the early spring too!
yes, I bailed again.
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bloquer
Feb 8, 2005, 12:04 AM
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TIMBERTOP TIMBERTOP TIMBERTOP TIMBERTOP TIMBERTOP TIMBERTOP
cOMON hows a guy to sleep without his fix.
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dmckj
Feb 8, 2005, 1:23 AM
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Devo.....
Your public awaits your precious words....
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bsmoot
Feb 8, 2005, 2:28 AM
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Tenesmus:
It's an amazing coincidence that you mention Arm and Hammer on this site. Les actually tried to climb that very route with none other than Dangle himself! They roped up at the base of the climb as a party of three....only two of them topped out.
Yeah, I've been trying to get Les to chime in to this thread...he made an early ascent of Touchstone...used PINS! A real rebel!
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no_one
Feb 8, 2005, 2:52 AM
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So if I read this right, Dave Jones has been on a ten page rant along with some jackals because Ron Olevsky said that the statement by John Middendorf on page 14 of the Bjornstad Guide is a hoax. That Jones didn't put up anything.
Well, OK.
Jones says that Middendorf is his close friend. What is the basis for the claim?
If Jones can't come up with a '70s resume maybe all the rest is BS too.
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bsmoot
Feb 8, 2005, 3:20 AM
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No_one:
I think you're really RonStoppable!
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dmckj
Feb 8, 2005, 3:56 AM
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Dear No_one,
In your case there are 3 possibilities:
1) you haven't been paying attention
2) you didn't log on with your logic chip in
3) you are Dangle or his surrogate.
I'd say number 3 is the most likely.
Yeah, I have always fantasized about my friends, and I've even conned Middendorff into writing articles...as follows:
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/Cave.html
Open mouth, insert foot 'no_one'
Hang it up.
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dmckj
Feb 8, 2005, 4:02 AM
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Oh my!!!
Brian Smoot a 'jackal' and Devo too???? What do you guys have to say about that?
Man, I had better choose my friends with more care.
I guess that means Mark Austin, Steve Chardon, Josh Leiberman, Bob Yoho,........well, I guess they're ALL jackals. Oh yeah, and Dean Woods too (sorry Dean, I almost forgot ya).
Man, there goes my self-esteem! Back to my dark room.....
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dmckj
Feb 8, 2005, 4:30 AM
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more real, true, honest, and, hopefully, fun.....
ROUTE NAME STORIES FROM ZION
as humbly presented to you by our sponsors....
Dancing With Zully (West Face of Mt. Spry: 5.10+, 5 pitches)
After having put up 'Mouse Turds in The Oven', John Middendorff (my imaginary friend) and I were looking for some fresh meat. I told John about a 'great' line I had somewhere, we took a look at it, but he wasn't too keen (grody start with poison ivy). So.....I had this cool splitter picked out on the W. Face of Mt. Spry, about 100 yards to the S. of Sandblaster.
We motored up to the base, and as luck would have it the cracks didn't reach the ground. Bummer. Further, this was my brilliant idea, so I was the sucker who had to figure out how to get to the crack. Luckily, the first pitch, mostly face with incipient cracks, turned out to be pretty brilliant, and a tad scary. I shed a sentimental tear when I used on of my old 'BANDITO' hangers, courtesy of 'little buddy' out of Flag. Anyway, once to the base of the splitter we were treated to 4 more pitches of sterling cracks.
Great cracks. So sweet, in fact, it reminded me of a real cutey I had met at a strip joint in Mexico. Spent most of the night drinking and dancing with her and......(nah, you guys don't want to hear the rest of that story). Anyway, her stage name was 'Zully', and I couldn't think of anything much finer than 'Dancing With Zully'.
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bandycoot
Feb 8, 2005, 4:35 AM
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That's just a great route name story! :lol:
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no_one
Feb 8, 2005, 3:09 PM
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Nice try with the article but I SAID you were friends with him.
My name is Steve. I would like to say Ron is becomeing a friend. You know despite all the nasty things I've heard about him he really is a good guy. I haven't climbed with him yet, he always seems to prefer soloing. He has been over to my house a few times to play Texas Hold'em with my other friends, some climbers some not. Every time someone thinks he's bluffing turns out he isn't. Three rounds and he always leaves with everybody's money. (What Ron doesn't know is I'm realin him in!) He does leave us entertained though.
OK. One more time.
What routes did you pioneer in Zion in the late seventies?????
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dmckj
Feb 8, 2005, 6:15 PM
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Dear No_One,
O.K., I was dead-on on point #3.
You entirely miss the point, clearly and thoughtfully presented earlier in this thread, and your question therefore doesn't merit an answer. Go back and read everything very carefully.
Despite that, I'll try to restate if for you as simply as possible:
1) No one, least of all me, claimed what you have been deluded (by your lovely friendship with Dangle) into believing was claimed. No one, ever. Not even Middendorff. That nullifies your whole thread of illogic right of the start.
2) (And this is getting tiring) Everything I did is documented in original topos, the dates and personnel correct. I had no control or say or input in what anyone wrote anywhere else (For that matter, John M. used topos of mine without checking with me for any permission). I have never claimed to have done anything other that what is on those topos (remember, I am writing this to you in clear English). The same cannot be said with respect to Dangle, most notably, for the history he fabricated, repeatedly and in publication, for Spaceshot (Do you GET this?).
3) But even this doesn't matter, although I do think history should 'get it right'. What does matter is Dangle's 15-20 years of opening his mouth and slandering me -- most notably in the start of this thread (I repeat...DO YOU GET IT?) -- for reasons I have also outlined earlier in this thread. I've finally run out of patience.
If you can't fathom here that Dangle has a history of 'problems' with partners then I can't help you.
Before weighing in on matters you have no knowledge of, I suggest you get your own understanding Zion history in line first, carefully analyze Dangle's history of actions and 'prevarications' second, and then think real hard about what it all means.
And remember, you're judged not only what you do but by the friends you keep.
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tenesmus
Feb 8, 2005, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: more real, true, honest, and, hopefully, fun..... ROUTE NAME STORIES FROM ZION as humbly presented to you by our sponsors.... Dancing With Zully (West Face of Mt. Spry: 5.10+, 5 pitches) After having put up 'Mouse Turds in The Oven', John Middendorff (my imaginary friend) and I were looking for some fresh meat. I told John about a 'great' line I had somewhere, we took a look at it, but he wasn't too keen (grody start with poison ivy). So.....I had this cool splitter picked out on the W. Face of Mt. Spry, about 100 yards to the S. of Sandblaster. We motored up to the base, and as luck would have it the cracks didn't reach the ground. Bummer. Further, this was my brilliant idea, so I was the sucker who had to figure out how to get to the crack. Luckily, the first pitch, mostly face with incipient cracks, turned out to be pretty brilliant, and a tad scary. I shed a sentimental tear when I used on of my old 'BANDITO' hangers, courtesy of 'little buddy' out of Flag. Anyway, once to the base of the splitter we were treated to 4 more pitches of sterling cracks. Great cracks. So sweet, in fact, it reminded me of a real cutey I had met at a strip joint in Mexico. Spent most of the night drinking and dancing with her and......(nah, you guys don't want to hear the rest of that story). Anyway, her stage name was 'Zully', and I couldn't think of anything much finer than 'Dancing With Zully'.
So... this sounds like a fun route. I haven't heard of it before. How runnout is it getting into the crack? What gear should I bring? (read: how wide is it?) This is just the kind of thing I love. Isn't Sandblaster near the tunnel?
By the way, something like 1/2 to 2/3rd's of Middledorff's route list on his site have FA's with Dave Jones in the party. Prolific.
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tenesmus
Feb 8, 2005, 7:48 PM
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Also, does anyone know the story/info about the Sunshine wall in Kolob?
I'm plain interested in moderate free routes down there - like .10 or .11
BSmoot - I've done a little slab climbing in the Wasatch, and it always amazes me how stout it is. Does this have something to do with just plain old school grades, or has the gradual deteriation of the granite over the years had as much of a contribution?
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brianinslc
Feb 8, 2005, 8:14 PM
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In reply to: Also, does anyone know the story/info about the Sunshine wall in Kolob?
Do you mean the Sunshine Buttress? I've done most of it. Let me know if you want a route topo, I'll bring one to the gym...(and I think there's a couple guys at the gym or across the street who've free climbed it).
As far as the story...there's at least two folks who post here that were on the FA of that route...and...its pretty well documented in the book, 50 favorites. Neat line. Gets a bit wide and sandy up top.
In reply to: BSmoot - I've done a little slab climbing in the Wasatch, and it always amazes me how stout it is. Does this have something to do with just plain old school grades, or has the gradual deteriation of the granite over the years had as much of a contribution?
More a gradual deteriation of the climbing populace...ha ha. To many gym climbers and well protected sports routes perhaps...and/or, folks not pushing their limits on slab, which is more of a head trip than say takin' multiple whippers or "takes" on "All Chalk..." for instance. Last season, watched Trashman hike All Chalk (had it wired) versus back down from Paranoia Streak. Pretty interesting. Different gigs, different type of climbing. All fun.
-Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
Feb 8, 2005, 8:15 PM
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sorry for the repeat..
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brianinslc
Feb 8, 2005, 8:16 PM
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Geez, a triple post...
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rockprodigy
Feb 8, 2005, 9:24 PM
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...Cabe calls out the trashman...nice. It's about time what goes around comes back around.
Seriously though, Brian hit the nail on the head with the slab ratings. I do think the LCC has the hardest slabs I've tried, but don't hang your hat on that.
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tenesmus
Feb 8, 2005, 11:20 PM
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In reply to: ...Cabe calls out the trashman...nice. It's about time what goes around comes back around. Seriously though, Brian hit the nail on the head with the slab ratings. I do think the LCC has the hardest slabs I've tried, but don't hang your hat on that.
What other slabs have you tried for comparison?
What is a good long face route in Zion? How long will it take people to make it twice as hard by the holds melting off?
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rockprodigy
Feb 9, 2005, 4:49 AM
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Huh. That "MikeA" guy sounds like a real wanker. From what I hear, the free version of the Lowe Route on Angels Landing will definitely get harder as holds get rounded down.
There are also pitches here and there, all over the park that will probably change, or already have since the FA: The first 5.9 pitch on Iron Messiah, the 11c pitch on Shune's, the Black Corner pitch and the final 5.11 slab pitch on Monkey Finger, the 11c slab pitch on Moonlight. Not to mention the fact that the cracks themselves change quite a bit with every aid ascent. I'm sure the crux pitch of moonlight was much harder in '89 when Johnny and Peter did it, than when I did it in '03, and I'm sure it's easier now than when I did it. Some day soon it'll be 12a.
Stuff changes, that's the natural condition of the medium. It's best to just accept it, and not try to hold onto any current state of existence.
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bsmoot
Feb 9, 2005, 5:39 AM
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What is a good, long face route?
Try Made to be broken 5.10+ It's a 5 pitch face route behind the lodge.
No_One/Dangle: That 70's - Jones history thing...GET OVER IT! Middendorf was simply generalizing history of the 70's & 80's
(This post was edited by bsmoot on May 2, 2009, 2:25 PM)
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funk29
Feb 10, 2005, 1:15 AM
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This is the best fourm i have read all year on this site. I want to hear more history and less trash talk. Maybe the two go hand in hand.
Old school hardmen.
Any good stories from the South Fork of Taylor Creek. Besides getting swept away by the sirens that live there.
"you were fix'n to fornicate too!" -O brother
I have done the first five pitches of Sunight Butress, not sure why it made 50 classics. Maybe I should climb it again.
m barley
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epic_ed
Feb 10, 2005, 2:34 AM
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Well, what the heck happened to Timbertop?!?!
C'mon!
Ed
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deuce4
Feb 10, 2005, 3:11 AM
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wow, this looks like a good fray. Can I join?
Hey Dave, what's your new email? I saw your posts about some of the old climbs. Can't remember any of them!
Just kidding. Those were good times. That Dancing with Zully was some fine freeclimbing, especially that first pitch. I remember leading some sweet Zion 5.10 pitch later as well. I recall wishing we had set the route up for rapping, instead of that painful descent from another route and a long hike back to the base in tight shoes. I think I would reclimb that route some day if some kind soul put some rap anchors in.
By the way, wasn't Zully more than just an aquaintance? oops.
Say, I remember asking you about publishing those topos that were in Rock and Ice and got your verbal go ahead. Anyway I did a lot of those routes myself, except for some on the East Temple. I think that was in the days that we were travelling 1000 feet underground for weeks at a time in Lechugilla. Maybe not.
Anyway, I remember it was a true dilemma to write the Zion article for Rock and Ice, but it seemed there was such huge demand for some--just some--info, about some routes in Zion, and people were starting to go up on established routes and adding bolts and stuff thinking they were doing FA's, and trashing the landscape with multiple approach trails, so I somehow justified giving some info. I still have a near complete manuscript of what could have been a guidebook to Zion up to 1995, but could never justify publishing and taking that much adventure out of such a magic place.
Anyway, here's to Zion! The new breed there, like Ammon and friends, really seems to be ripping up with some awesome routes.
Cheers
John Middendorf
(Indeed, a friend of Dave's)
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funk29
Feb 10, 2005, 3:38 AM
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John,
I think its your turn to tell us a story.
m
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bsmoot
Feb 10, 2005, 5:23 AM
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Deuce:
Welcome aboard! When you get time, it would be nice to hear about the climbing scene of the 90's and who were the players...the characters you climbed with...some of your adventures... like more snipits from the Radiator or Tao of the Light...descents, etc.
Holding off on your guidebook 10 years ago seemed to be the right call, but now in order to spread out the masses, it might be warrented. Chatting with the local boys recently, we all seemed to come up with the same thoughts...only 5 routes are crowded out of nearly 150 wall routes that have so far been done. Yes, free climbing standards are again on the rise and there is this one aid climber Klaus (Silent Montana) is inside of the bird beak and looking out! Amazing stuff has been happening.
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no_one
Feb 10, 2005, 5:27 AM
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This has been an awsome thread, honestly. I never thought I'd get my ass chewed out by Dave Jones for sticking up for Ron Olevsky and then have John Middendorf weigh in and make me feel like an even bigger ass. Thanks for all the stories Boys, I turn and walk away with my tail between my legs.
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rocknroll
Feb 10, 2005, 1:28 PM
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When we last left our Timbertop climbers they had hiked back into the Kolob after their day in court. Ron was ecstatic. He beat Jonsey over the $3.25 collect call. I was incredulous. How could a judge let that piddly amount tie up the courts. Mark explained, "They asked him if he owed the money, Jones said yes, case closed." And Jonesey owed the court costs and for the sheriff who served him. Ron was dancing around getting his stuff ready for tomorrow's ascent. Ron's victory in the courts was actually good news. We both felt that Ron's mood would be better on this climb, instead of his usual "little hitler" routine.
Anyone who has climbed with Ron has experienced it. Ron comes off as the know-it-all, which he is when it comes to Zion climbing. But he uses it to build himself up and have the upperhad in the decision making on the climb. He starts to use his 'superior' knowledge to belittle his partners and make them feel like idiots. He will criticize every minute detail. And if you actually make a mistake, god forbid, you won't hear the end of it. Constant yelling name calling and temper tantrums. And Ron has his own secret code, nicknames for everything you climb with. I think he does this to deliberately confuse you. I remember wandering around this ledge on the first ascent of the Equinox wondereing what he meant by "put the aseptics in the fass nord and haul them on the B rope." OK Ready, here it is. Aseptics are those small square juice containers that come with a little straw you use to poke a hole in them to drink. He called them Aseptic because it is basically a sterile package. The Fass Nord or North Face in German is ..guess...nope, not a North Face pack. It is an early Chouinard climbing pack that's model was called a Fass Nord . And the B rope. You would probably think the haul line, but actually it was a rope he had of lesser quality which we used as a lower out line. It wasn't like you might think, A rope = lead line. b rope= haul line -no just a lesser quality rope. And nobody would understand what he meant by it all. You would stare up at the cantakerous fool, dumbly, and get ready for his rage.
Well, we lucked out as we got on Timbertop. Ron seemed to have turned over a new leaf. Friendly attitude. Everyone is working well together. Then it is Rons turn to lead...
To be continued
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rockprodigy
Feb 10, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Boy...now things are getting interesting! If we could only get Jeff and Conrad involved....
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une
Feb 10, 2005, 4:42 PM
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Well, what can I say? This has been the only thread longer than five pages that I have actually read on this site. (aside from women of RC.com, but that was mostly just looking at pictures) These stories have been great.
I have to admit that when I first started to read this thread that I was behind dangle all the way. He made it sound so convincing in the beginning. Now, having read the completely read this thread, I feel that I must believe dmcjk is indeed weaving a more accurate version of history.
Again, thank you for the facinating stories and I look forward to future installments.
edit: After recieving a PM from Dangle (there were no threats) I am going to change my view to that of no view at all. He asked my to refrain from siding with one party or the other untill all the details are clear. That is precicly what I shall do.
Again thank you for the stories of Zion history and consider me a neutral observer from here on out.
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deuce4
Feb 10, 2005, 5:36 PM
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http://www.bigwalls.net/.../newphotos/derik.jpg
Above Photo: Derek Hersey climbing up to the Rock House Tree House.
How about the old tree house in Springdale at Brad Quinn and Darren Cope's old RockHouse? What an institution that was. Lots of stories there...
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rocknroll
Feb 10, 2005, 8:52 PM
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Before we continue with the rest of the Timbertop story, let me give you a little more background on the mountain and the climb. Timbertop Mesa is in the Kolob section of Zion N.P. at an elevation of 7,000 feet at its base. We are in the pines here. The summit is 2500 feet above, and the northface is proably about 2000 feet in length making it one of the largest rock walls in Zion (Anyone want to venture a guess on the largest wall in Zion N P, including steep white rock, but not past the rim?). It also is completely cut-off from access except via roped climbing. Scientist have studied its animal life because it is so incestuous. There are even deer up there.
I was a fledgeling film producer and wanted to make a film about the ascent. I had quit the UCLA graduate film program to do it. My father was pissed; he thought I was going to be the next Spielberg and UCLA is the door in to Hollywood. But the mountains beckoned. I wrote a proposal for the film and sent it to all the equipment companies. Chouinard gave me a bunch of reject hexes and 50 baby angles, our sandstone "bolts" at the time. Todd Bibler, of Bibler Tenmts, wrote back and said, "if you don't hurry up and climb it, I'll climb it first!". With a few oddly cast hexes and no funds to speak of, I scrapped the film project and went to climb it before Todd Bibler, or Dave Jones or Duecy did.
Let me stop our story for a minute or two. I just went into my files and found the proposal for the Timbertop film/climb written in 1983. Here it is:
The wind stabs hard against the red rock of Soutnern Utah. To the southeast, huge cumulus clouds grow mad and dark, threatening rain. Ron Olevesky emerges from his house; a brick windowless bunker standing solitary against the approaching storm. He removes the cycling cap from his balding head and wipes the sweat from his brow with the back of his hand. A hand holding a pistol. I turn towards him as he stares at the building rain. "Don't you ever get lonely out here, Ron?"
"Hell, no!" he snaps back, "Do you think I'd live here if I got lonesome?"
Ron Olevesky is a man who symbolizes the Old West. He lives by his own rules, savoring his freedom of the wide open spaces. He has no qualms about using a gun, or a stick of dynamite, if the situation warrants it. Yet he is a lover of the wilderness and the land around him. He considers himself a vigillant protector of the land. He cuts down billboards that obscure beautiful views, or erects signs to state his own views. On a recent visite to Zion NP by secratary of the interior James Watt, Olevesky erected a sign high on a sandstone wall. "This Park For Sale - Call James Watt".
Olevesky does not work, but earns his keep through careful investment of a large inheritance. He spends his time riding his mules, running rivers and his most passionate endevour - climbing the huge sandstone walls of Zion NP.
Olevesky first came out west as a teenager. He soon found within himself a great love of this jagged land and sought ways to emerse himself within it. He arrived in Yosemite Valley and had to caress its sheer granite walls. Here he learned the techniques of rock climbing and began the scaling the huge cliffs.
Olevesky climbed with the famous climbers of the time, erecting bold new lines on the largest face, El Capitan. He fell in love with this sport, especially aid climbing, savoring the sound of a well-driven piton in stone.
But rock climbing was under going a huge revolution. All the big faces had been climbed and the emphasis was shifting from not on how high you could climb, but how hard you could climb. The emphasis was on pitting your physical strength not the strength of a piece of protection. And pitons, a necessary component of aid climbing, were seen as environmentally damaging and wedges were now in vogue.
But Ron loved aid climbing. He loved it so much he wanted to prove to the Yosemite climbers of its validity by epoxing slings onto Columbia Boulder in camp 4. This did not sit well with the resident hardmen. Olevesky became the subject of countless discussions about ethics and responsibility. Leaving his trash glued to the rock! But Piton Ron refused to change and had to find a new place to climb.
Ron sought asylum in Zion Canyon. When he first entered it in the seventies, only a handful of routes had been climbed. There were horror stories about loose riock and wide unprotectable cracks in the soft rock. Olevesky found a place to hammer his pitons. In most places, the soft rock of Zion could only be climbed utilizing iron. Without anyone to climb with he worked alone, picking out small thin cracks with a pair of binoculars. Ron ascended Zion's most popular routes and he was in Heaven. He had to use pitons instead of conventional protection; he had to use aid for the rock was too steep or overhanging for free climbing and here he would become famous - for very few people had the guts to climb on the soft rock. Ron has over one hundred routes in Zion, most of these are multi-day affairs, put up by Olevesky alone. He hauls up huge sacks of food (usually half of which is beer), and sleeps on thin ledges watching the vast Utah sky fill with stars.
To be on a climb with Olevesky is an experience in itself. He demands discipline and militaristic precision, yet he'll come down from a multi-day wall not because he's run out of food, but because he's run out of beer.
After climbing with him once, some climbers have vowed never to climb with him again - he has earned the nickname Ron Offensesky and Little Hitler. Others won't climb with him for ethical reaseons, saying Olevesky has no respect for the rock and will hammer in needless pitons and bolts when a clean wedge would suffice. Olevesky disregards such comments, saying, "I'd rather be safe," when in reality, he'd rather not be scared.
Ron has also brought a great service to the land where he lives. He has created the rock climbing section of The Iron County Search and Rescue team. Using his big wall techniques, Ron has assisted in countless rescues of tourists and citizens alike. The people of southern Utah are indebted to Olevesky for his knowledge and assistance in making this land a safer place to tread.
The film I am proposing follows the antics of this desert rat/hermit/eco-raider/climber/survivalist/rescuer. For in June, Ron plans the largest ascent of his life. The North Face at Timbertop mesa. Here in the hidden canyons of the Kolob in Zion National Park is the biggest piece of vertical sandstone in the world <>. In May, Ron will begin transferring supplies to the base on the back of his mules. He hopes to have a partner or two; if he can find someone to put up with him. But, with such a tempting prize in mind, it should not be hard to find someone.
An ex-partner of his also has his eye on the big face. Dave Jones has seen the Walll, and may try to race Olevesky to it, making for an exciting confrontation this spring in Zion. Perhaps they will join forces ...
<>
So a lot was riding on this ascent. And when I got my lead it couldn't have been better. A thin crack opening to hands, step out of the aiders, and jam, jam, jam. "We're jamming" I sang at the top of my lungs in pure bliss only to be interuppted by "Hey F--K face, you left your aiders behind. What if you need them for more aid?" Ron was right, but I stammered my defense anyway.
"I can see that it is a perfect handcrack well into the next pitch." I yelled back.
"Oh, I see." countered Ron, "and you want me to clean up the mess you left behind. I suppose you want me to carry your used toilet paper as well!"
I could see Mark shaking his head and avoiding the squabble all together. I reached the end of the rope at a perfect alcove ledge and anchored, following Ron's methods to the tee, lest I become a victim for more verbal abuse.
to be continued ...
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brianinslc
Feb 10, 2005, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: Before we continue with the rest of the Timbertop story, let me give you a little more background on the mountain and the climb. Timbertop Mesa is in the Kolob section of Zion N.P. at an elevation of 7,000 feet at its base. We are in the pines here. The summit is 2500 feet above, and the northface is proably about 2000 feet in length making it one of the largest rock walls in Zion (Anyone want to venture a guess on the largest wall in Zion N P, including steep white rock, but not past the rim?).
South face of the East Temple?
-Brian in SLC
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rocknroll
Feb 11, 2005, 6:17 AM
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guess again.
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milktoast
Feb 11, 2005, 7:02 AM
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I milktoast feel like my name sounds, burnt toast dunked in warm milk, and getting soggy... But here is my story about how history gets obscured, especially in a place like Zion...
It is winter, in the 90's and my partner and I are tired of snowboarding, so tired, we decide to take some time off and go climb a wall, in zion. Being self proclaimed veterans of yosemite, we should have no trouble with one of the "little walls" of zion. So we pack up and head out,from beautiful breckenridge, CO. Our plan is to tackle, whatever no one else is on. Fortunatly, no one is climbing in the park at all, as far as we could tell. So we opt for the easiest wall we can find. We are less than 2 weeks from the shortest day of the year. After a couple hours of skimming through the guide book in the visitor center, we decide on going up touchstone, or cerebrus gendarme. We could do it in a day, if the days were longer, we reaffirm ourselves. So off we go leaving the ground at 14:00 in the afternoon. I got a little bit ahead of myself, our gear consisted of, portaledge, sleeping bags, small rack, two ropes, slim food for two days, an ounce of washington's finest indoor weed, a bottle of tequila, a bottle of single malt scotch, and a case of cheap beer in cans ( 24 beers, not 12 like some people call cases ) We planned on running up touchstone and being back on the ground by the night of the next day. Starting at 2:00 pm half drunk and fully stoned, we only made it a couple pitches up before darkness set in. "Wow it sure gets dark early" my partner exclaimed as we set up the ledge in the dark, at the top of pitch two. "No worries," I replied, " We will get an early start" gulp, gulp goes the booze, and inhale goes the pot. Well we didn't start early, and we didn't start right. After each pitch, the leader would get a shot of tequila. And before the start of the next, a couple tokes of weed, to clear the head. Now this part gets hazy (wonder why) but we did top out that night. And after a long drawn out safety break on top, we realized that niether of us "experienced wall climbers", bothered to look at how to get down. So we meandered around and found a notch, where it was either left or right. One gully/chimney system went towards the south side, where we had climbed up(the correct descent I later learned) and the other headed down a gully to the north, which after a lot of alcohol, seemed "right". Well it was the wrong way to descend. After a couple hours of rappeling with the haulbag, through brushy chimneys only to find the end of the rope, and amazingly no rap anchors again, it got dark. well at some point you (we) have to cut your losses. And setting up the ledge, so we could sit down, began to seem the right choice. Seeing stars, and having good weather (to that point) we forgot to hang the fly ( early model A5 ), above the ledge. Instead it was tucked neatly, below all the empty beer cans. I don't remember falling asleep as much as I remember waking up, in the middle of the night, to the sound of rain dripping on something. Then more, and more, and then to our horror, the lighter would not work. nothing like being hungery, and drunk. When morning came, we managed to get the lighter working ( or we would have died right there ) and smoked a couple bowls, to get our senses back. It musta worked, cause the chimney ended, and we found some roots to rappel off, than a couple RP's, then we were on the ground. Soaking wet, walking, with a haulbag, in a rainstorm, and a car pulls up. I am thinking hell yeah I want a ride, but the driver rolls down the window, and smirks, (dangler I believe) what were you boys up to.... Climbing, what the f*%# you think..... I mean what route, I saw you struggling last night going up and down....
Now at this point, I have to say, normally, honesty is a big deal in my life. I don't lie, chip holds, or even comfortize holds. But who pulls up, to two soaking wet, drunk in the morning climbers, covered in dirt and mud, and starts asking what route we just got off. So we lied, and lied , and lied some more.... beautiful handcracks we said, marvelous FA, you got to go do it, at every belay there is a ledge...and so on... We even gave our first descent a name to the driver. He drove off and didn't even offer us a ride. I remember thinking I was glad to lie to him.
So we went back to the campground, and began drying our gear. At some point in the day we sobered up enough to go bouldering. The first bouldering we found, had ugly, shamefull drilled pockets. It could have been the booze, from the few days long bender, or even the lack of drinking water, but when I saw those drilled holes, I puked all over the nearest bush. Which brings me back to my original ?? How did those drilled holes get in the boulder??
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rocknroll
Feb 11, 2005, 9:28 AM
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Great story, Milktoast!
Live life to the fullest!!
In reply to: Drink To Puke! ---D.L.F.A. motto |
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brianinslc
Feb 11, 2005, 3:31 PM
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Hmmm. Some of those routes on Twin Brother and Mountain of the Sun are pretty long...but...so's West Temple...hmmm....
How 'bout NE face of Lady Mountain?
After that, I got nothin'.
-Brian in SLC
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dingus
Feb 11, 2005, 4:22 PM
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In reply to: I milktoast feel like my name sounds, burnt toast dunked in warm milk, and getting soggy... , slim food for two days, an ounce of washington's finest indoor weed, a bottle of tequila, a bottle of single malt scotch, and a case of cheap beer in cans ( 24 beers, not 12 like some people call cases )
Milktoast, are you SURE we're not related???
I've been a Milktoast for a long long time so you have to appreciate how odd it is to see a brother in arms as it were.
Clearly though, we belong to the Merican branch (someone tried to correct my spelling once, gave me that brit bullshit spelling Milquetoast, so I shot em right between the eyes, hehe)
Nice TR
DMT
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dmckj
Feb 11, 2005, 4:47 PM
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Hey.....I'm Back..
And more than happy to see the thread lives on and folks are jumping.
Hey John, great to hear you're 'back' from wherever it is you were. Send me a 'PM' personal message on this site and I'll send you my email.
I got a climbing permit for Lech....(hee hee).
Great to see we'e got a Timbertop installment.
Been off on a work assignment and will gear up for my next series of installments.
Hang tight!
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dmckj
Feb 11, 2005, 4:53 PM
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Zully and I more than friends! Was this possible?
Uh, er, hmm..., sigh, well...
Actually, I intimated same in the thread, but of course none of the thread readers would have the slighest interest in all of the detailed carnal interludes...(or would they?).
Which leads me to a name I have waiting in the wings, based on a traumatizing relationship I had with a b$%&ch of an Aeromexico first class flight attendant. The route to be will be called 'Come Fly With Me'.
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brianinslc
Feb 11, 2005, 5:14 PM
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Here's something I've been wondering...
I occasionally run into bits of webbing in the Zion backcountry, finished with a water knot, where the ends of the webbing are finished in a distinctive point on one end, and a notch (that the point would fit into) on the other end.
Any idea who does this?
Noticed it after a climb up to the Cathedral/Majestic mesa. Via a route that was more akin to post holing in deep snow but had around four 5th class pitches, a couple with aid (up the gully on the north side between Cathedral and Majestic). We descended the canyon that runs south between Cathedral and Majestic, behind the Spearhead, and exits out just to the climber's right of Behunin. At the snout of the canyon, where it gets real steep and less a canyon than a steep chimney slot, we ran into single bolts with the sling configuration mentioned above. First one we hit was on a large boulder at the top of the drop. Then around 70 feet down to another bolt/sling inside the chimney. Then 80 feet to yet another bolt/sling. Then a sling on a chockstone. Then a pair of lost arrow pitons on a ledge for the final 150 foot rappel to the ground. Bolts were 3/8" rawl studs with SMC hangers and the webbing was 1" green.
I've always assumed the bolts and webbing were from "someone's" ascent of the Spearhead.
Idears?
-Brian in SLC
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dmckj
Feb 11, 2005, 5:39 PM
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To Deuce and the guy who was asking about Dancing With Zully
Rap anchors are IN on Dancing With Zully. Think Brad Quinn and friends probably did it on a second ascent (e.g. I advised them to do so at the time).
All you need is a standard free rack on the route. The cracks vary from thin to fist, so plan accordingly. Basically a standard rack will do (bring a small selection of small to medium nuts).
Go to the park visitor's center and find the topo under Mt. Spry. (My topo is extremely detailed as to how to find it). Approach by going about 200 yards up the main canyon road, standing back to look at the rock (on your right going up canyon), find splitter barely visible at base (pitch 2 this is), and following a the logical long scree slope that leads pretty much straight up to its base.
The first pitch is the crux and a bit intimidating. You have to climb a bit above a bolt (sandbag 10+, real 11-) and then pull off a mantle on a good ledge at the end. After this there is a trickily protected (hidden nuts) move or 3 off the ledge. When I reclimbed this route I recalled wondering what kind of stud put up the first pitch, and then I came to my senses and realized it was only me (HAH! There's that resounding laugh again.) Rest of the route is purely fun and beautiful and solid.
If you are studly you can do Dancing.. an Sandblaster... in a day.
BTW, John is right when he says he got the verbal O.K. on presenting the routes in the Rock and Ice article. And I was pointing this out ONLY to make a point to no_one. What I didn't expect was that my BEAUTIFUL (if I say so immodestly) location topo of the East Temple was, literally, reprinted almost word for word and line for line in the R+I article. It would have been nice if there were a credit that read something like 'This topo, which is quite possibly the world's best ever, was kindly and graciously released from its propriety cloak by none other than the infamous, humble, conceptually, and artistically gifted David Jones'. You know, some simple and unassuming recognition like this....or maybe instead just some free women and beer. Go ahead, call me shallow..
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tenesmus
Feb 11, 2005, 7:21 PM
Post #232 of 667
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In reply to: All you need is a standard free rack on the route. The cracks vary from thin to fist, so plan accordingly. Basically a standard rack will do (bring a small selection of small to medium nuts). Go to the park visitor's center and find the topo under Mt. Spry. (My topo is extremely detailed as to how to find it). Approach by going about 200 yards up the main canyon road, standing back to look at the rock (on your right going up canyon), find splitter barely visible at base (pitch 2 this is), and following a the logical long scree slope that leads pretty much straight up to its base. The first pitch is the crux and a bit intimidating. You have to climb a bit above a bolt (sandbag 10+, real 11-) and then pull off a mantle on a good ledge at the end. After this there is a trickily protected (hidden nuts) move or 3 off the ledge. When I reclimbed this route I recalled wondering what kind of stud put up the first pitch, and then I came to my senses and realized it was only me (HAH! There's that resounding laugh again.) Rest of the route is purely fun and beautiful and solid. If you are studly you can do Dancing.. an Sandblaster... in a day. |
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deuce4
Feb 11, 2005, 8:58 PM
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Dave wrote: In reply to: It would have been nice if there were a credit that read something like 'This topo, which is quite possibly the world's best ever, was kindly and graciously released from its propriety cloak by none other than the infamous, humble, conceptually, and artistically gifted David Jones'. You know, some simple and unassuming recognition like this....or maybe instead just some free women and beer.
Dang, I figured that having your name plastered all over the FA credits would have had resulted in crowds of women knocking at your door... Oh, I forgot, it's rock climbing, not rock n' roll, after all. Still, you'd figure the "rock" theme was good for something.
oh well
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rocknroll
Feb 11, 2005, 9:18 PM
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Conclusion to Timbertop
Mark jugged the fixed line to the ledge as I prepared a very neat anchor and haul set up. The last thing I wanted was Ron to criticize my efforts.
"Hey what's taking so long up there?" yelled Ron.
Mark had almost jugged to the belay and could see me furiously trying to build the haul system. I needed to open one carabiener that held the rack but it was already weighted. In a low voice I said to Mark. "Hey can you unweight for one minute. I got to fix something."
Mark wasn't happy about this obvious scew up. "Mike," he said, " It's a sheer wall, nothing to stand on except jam in the crack"
"Do it!" I said in hushed voice.
Mark got into the crack, and it was barely enough to unweight the rope. As I got the gate of the beiner open, Mark rearranged his position and unweighted the rope even more. The carabiener flipped around and the rack was free, sliding down the wall to a small sloping shelf which then propelled it out into space. Mark released one hand jam, threw his arm behind him and caught it.
"What the hell is going on up there?" yelled Ron.
"uh, nothing..."
Mark gave me a stern look."
"Watch your sh-t." he said.
After hauling our loads to the small ledge, we looked upwards at Ron's next pitch: a beautiful 2"-3" crack. Ron quickly got into the business. He placed a number 3 friend and attched his aiders to it.
"Ron," I asked "aren't you going to free it? That crack is exquisite"
"Shut up. Don't you know anything? I'm not going to waste my time and energy hanging from handjams trying to place pro. This is a lot faster."
When Ron was out of ear shot I said to Mark, "Faster? Aid climbing is so slow. But then again, I doubt he'd run it out; probably would sew it up like an aid climb anyway, that is, if he could even free it"
I was getting ranckled. "At least he didn't criticize my anchor set-up. See everything nice and neat...haul line coiled here, hauling anchor out to the side."
Really, Mike" said Mark, "You can't let him get to you. Pay attention." I took Mark's words to heart and scanned the anchor set up for any potential snags.
"Oh sh-t"
"what?"
"The lead line and the haul line are tied in at the half way point. I got to untie those before he starts yanking on them". Ron yelled something unintelligible from above. "a few more moves and he'll be there."
I quickly tried to turn around the beaner that held the lead line. The rope was beginning to get taught.
Mark yelled up to Ron."Wait a minitue, Ron!"
"What the hell! "yelled Ron.
"Mike, be careful." said Mark," Ignore him."
"What the hell is going on?" yelled Ron.
I fervantly tried to free the rope. I struggled with the beaner against Ron's pulling. Finally I flipped it around, open the gate and the rack of pitons flew into space. And this time there was no one to catch it.
Mark said nothing. Ron was still yelling.
"Climb on " I yelled.
"You know that every baby angle we had was on that rack. We have to go down.... You let him get to you."
At least I had an excuse, Ron's intolerable ravings, until Mark let me have it. "I;m done with this climb. Mike I am not afraid of you unclippimg the rack. I am afraid of you unclipping me!" And he began to ready the ropes for rappel.
To face the wrath of Ron after this blunder! But Ron spared me when he arrived at the ledge. "I am not going to say a word about this screw up. It's not worth it".
After Ron left the ledge I kept thinking about Mark's word. My good friend and ally now thought that I was dangerous. And now everything I had lived for had come to an end. The film, school, the climb, my friends. Niether climber would want to climb with me again. I heard Mark's words echo in my head.
"Mike I am not afraid of you unclippimg the rack. I am afraid of you unclipping me!"
I heard Ron yell off rappel and set up my rap and went to unclip from the anchor - and...
I was already unclipped!
I had been so consumed with it all, pouting away on that ledge and didn't even realize that I wasn't even tied in the anchor.
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dmckj
Feb 11, 2005, 9:30 PM
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Hey All,
Time for a little 'history', not necessarily noteworthy, but history nonetheless.
By sheer dumb luck I ended up working out of St. George, Utah for a short time in 78 and then on a more regular basis starting in 79 and then 80. I had first been in Zion many times as a kid crossing the country with my mother and family on camping trips on the way from Connecticut to California. Fun stuff that was, and even as a 9 year old I though Zion was 'cooler' and more friendly than the Grand Canyon.
Ending up with St. George as a base was a fantasy to me. I would occasionally drive up into Zion canyon in my company rig and get out and look at the rock. I went up to the base of 'Boring Crack' and could not for the life of me figure out how it was 'only' 5.9, not knowing it was fair game to start in the tree. At some point I recall seeing a posterboard Dangle had made of his very recent first ascent of Archangel with photos and recalling his solo effort. I believe he had 'presented' this in a bicycle shop in St. George that also served as a climber's store, sort of.
Anyway, I recall first climbing Boring Crack without Friends and being duly impressed with how hard 5.9's were in Zion. At some point I saw the line of Cerberus and immediately decided I 'had to' climb it. On a journey with Josh Lieberman on our way to Yosemite we did just that. At that's when I first met Dangle, and that's when Dangle and I climbed Moonlight. (Still working on the dates folks).
Without bogging down in the first ascent details, I will say I was an immediate convert to Dangle's philosophy of 'only-the-red-rock-to-the false-rim-is-worth-climbing'. So I had zero interest in climbing routes with a lot of 'white rock' (although there are some notable exceptions).
John M. put together a good very general summary of the climbing history of Zion. As far as my own contributions go, I will only make two minor corrections to John's history: 1) Although I may have added a lot of free pitches and tried to get out of my aiders, I certainly wasn't raising absolute free climbing standards by any means -- maybe I was pushing them for Zion, but that was about it -- hell, almost ALL of the time I went to Zion I was fully off-the-couch and was nowhere near climbing at my abilities; 2) Without question, however, we (Steve Chardon and I with some help from Mark Pey) raised aid standards to a level that hadn't been seen, and only maybe very recently has been exceeded. I was a Yosemite wall rat, and I really did want to put up big nail-ups. So, the hard three that we did were, in chronological order, 'Lost in Transit' (Twin Brother), 'Wages of Sin' (Forbidden Wall), and 'Empty Pages' (Angel's Landing). There was nothing remotely comparable to the difficulty of any of these routes in the Park at the time, and for a long time afterwards. As they were put up, Wages.. and Empty Pages... were, by almost any standards, serious A4+/5. And these were in the pre-bird beak days where I could only use RURPS. The guy who did the second ascent of Empty Pages (Geo Schunk) called it 'solid A5'. Maybe, maybe not, but very sustained and hard, scary, etc, nevertheless.
So, in my opinion, from a historical perspective the difficulty of these aid routes was MUCH more important than the difficulty and any free climbing I did. What I did try to do, however, was avoid bolts unless absolutely necessary.
So what happened? Why did I drift away from the nail-ups.
Four simple reasons:
1) There weren't ANY climbers in Zion, let alone people who wanted to do seriously difficult and commiting routes. My best partner, Steve Chardon, got married and that was pretty much it for climbing after a few years. I simply could NOT find anyone who wanted to do such routes (except Dangle when he and I did Spaceshot).
2) Hardly anyone ever wanted to repeat wall routes with aid.....period. People would jump on Cerberus and Moonlight and Monkeyfinger, but the much more serious routes hardly anyone would repeat.
(You can imagine how 'lonely' this felt. No one who wanted to put up or climb such harder routes.)
3) Resorting to the local climbers I could find, these folks were pretty much all free-climbing oriented and were not whatsoever 'wall people'. So mixed routes with a little aid were fine, but not big nail-ups. That's when I put up all of the East Temple routes. They were just free-climbing plumbs waiting to be had.
4) Free climbing is, frankly, more fun, and the more I found more and more free-climbeable lines, the more I liked it, and the more it became a 'goal'.
I thought Zion would experience a 'logical' shift away from nail-ups (which, remember, no one would do!!) and towards free routes. Very, very ironically, this turned out not to be the case. Towards the end of my most prolific 'new route' period of largley free and clean lines a whole new generation of big wall nail-up climbers entered the park. This really amazed me!! Where were they when I had needed them 15-20 years earlier???? I was perplexed.
But by that time it didn't matter. Bagging free lines like Shune's Buttress and The Vigil (Watchman) was a lot more fun than dragging iron up a rock for 3 days (to me anyway). Or better yet, I prefer the 'let's go for it!' attitude of commiting to getting up without bivies. Adds a lot of thrill to the push day!
If one is selective, the quality of free climbing in Zion is just outstanding. After spending years in Yosemite I simply can't, in all honesty, think of better free routes than, for example Lovelace, Shune's, and the Vigil. And of course great routes that will soon go all free such as 'Hello Mary Lou' and 'Golden Years'. (Not to mention other classics such as Iron Messiah and Moonlight).
Anyway, that's just me talking from how I see it. Thanks for allowing me this small moment of self-indulgence.
'Drinking Beer, Are Ya?' is coming soon....
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dangle
Feb 11, 2005, 10:20 PM
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Joined in part by some that do indeed seem to be yipping at the smell of blood the board of directors of the Disaffected Ron Olevsky Partners Defamers Entertainment And Discussion Group, better known by their acronym DROP DEAD, is well into a record setting tag team marathon campaign with the usual backup of ancient grudges.
Has all of this regurgitated bile been a reaction to my attempting to discredit a misleading phrase in a guidebook? An attempt that may have been rebutted with the simple list of ascents? An attempt with the obvious intent of getting credit to Scott Fischer who Dave "never even met"(pg2) but turns out by pg9 he HAS met??? Is this the same Dave Jones that holds harsh words for bolts he deems unnecessary who also pretends that with the two of us as "Whillans and Harding" HE PLAYS HARDING????
Something isn't passing the smell test.
And who doesn't love Jones' disingenuous suggestion for the whole planet to just stop by the visitor center?
This is cyberspace Dave, just list the data.
How's this for interesting coincidences; while my herbal preference is well documented Mike Strassman who continued to share my roof and rope into the '90s stated on another thread here that he had done "Peruvian marching powder" on Half Dome yet his "account" suggests it was I who carried cocaine in his epic fable.
Anybody else notice how often Mike posts in the wee hours of the morning?
Ah yes and Brian's tale like so many told here uses "narrative gaps" to "heighten intrigue". That's a nice way to refer to neglecting to tell about how, unable to cajole his friend Terry into not smoking with the Evil Olevsky, he may have attempted more threatening means...
Those aren't just mouse turds. I'm starting to smell a rat.
But back to DROP DEAD's titular head Dave "Warren" Jones. Did anyone wonder after a dozen page rant why a person so offended at having his word questioned would unabashedly claim to having asked to see a bill for a few dollars from a person who until later that day he called a friend?
Oh yes he would call me a liar for reiterating a fact reported on the very list he would use to support a different claim, but decades later.
So why does this erupt now?
Gee, they wouldn't be trying to discredit me just after I decide to approach mainstream media with my story about their friend's kids putting swastikas outside my house? The same kids that are now the stepchildren of a permanent Zion Park employee. The same park service that would hardly benefit from the photos of said sign gaining wide exposure. The same park service that Jones claims to be tight with (it was CHIEF ranger Roger Rudolph who said,"two asses on a MULE" when I was riding double with his daughter Kendra.)
Not enough suspicious coincidences? How's this; the lame excuse that was barely enough to avoid criminal charges related to said sign was that the kids thought I looked/acted like a Neo-nazi. (Throwing rocks and yelling,"F_cking Jew!" notwithstanding.) Could it be that the intense characterization of me as an abusive martinet and even "Little Hitler" was actually merely intended to support a cover story for an act of bigotry that otherwise could not be excused?
Now that's a TEAM of rats.
Well what do all the readers say to the DROP DEAD Group and their good buddy Woods laying their cards on the table?
I make the following offer;
I'll put up $10,000.00 in advance. I will also pay in advance for up to 3 of the most highly professional polygraph exams conducted by an examiner with decades of experience (about $2500.00 each). I will also put upin advance $1000.00 to go to each of the 3 people or less I select from Smoot, Strassman, Woods and Jones for all of their bother with the provision that all selected pass as honest on their allegations before April. If this comes to pass all examinees get to vote on what (acceptable) charitable organization(s) gets the 10K and what they should do with it. I am willing to prequalify AMGA, Access Fund or the AAC as acceptable, but disqualify the DROP DEAD vacation fund as they will each have 1K for passing.
Anyone found to be substantially deceptive pays for their exam. If the 3 trust each other they can each put up a third. This means that I would be risking more than 20 times as much as each of the DROP DEADers. Certainly they are honest enough to take a 20 to 1 shot at providing the climbing community with a 10K benefit and the added incentive for them is that it comes out of my pocket along with a grand for each of them who passes.
But if they show themselves to be the dishonest scoundrels they are besides paying the exam fee THEY MUST APOLOGIZE TO MY SATISFACTION OR AGREE TO NO LONGER POST ON r.c.com UNDER ANY NAME.
As for Deuce who clapped me on the back in a friendly manner at OR but who has also repeatedly refused in private to disclose the basis for guidebook/topo claims I offer a provisional welcome in the hopes that a larger audience will provide sufficient motivation to be a bit more descriptive regarding his research.
His friendship with Jones was never questioned by Steve (who by now all might surmise I really do play poker with) or myself but rather cited as a vested interest.
Is all of this over a phrase that might have been more accurate if it read (Bjornstad, Guide to the National Parks, pg 14) "In the late '70s and early eighties RESPECTIVELY Ron Olevsky and Dave Jones" yada yada, and conscious of the half right hair splitting nature of this position the proponents failed to define it? Perhaps more I think.
This book is actually the one with the accurate month and days but predates the FA of Space Shot by 2 years. How could that happen? And who was Deuce's partner when he discovered the"unnecessary bolt ladder" that doesn't even exist on Iron Messiah? C'mon John give us the skinny.
What say the rest of you? Fair enough???
(My guess is that to look honest the DROP DEAD Group will accept but then fail to follow through or else will want me to take a test which at their expense if passed is acceptable to me. Equivocation is another possibility, and there's always "answering a different question".)
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rockprodigy
Feb 11, 2005, 10:21 PM
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Interesting thoughts Dave. By the way, any chance "Wages of Sin" is named for the Bruce Springsteen song? Probably not, but I thought I'd ask anyway.
I am very interested in your analysis of the free climbing and hard nailing scenes in zion. It's something I have thought about quite a bit. Why is there so much broad activity in Yosemite (big wall aid, long free, single pitch free, bouldering), while in Zion, "the masses" seem to only repeat the C1 aid routes?
In yosemite, every square inch of rock has been climbed, but people don't bother in Zion. I think there are a few reasons:
1: Typically, climbers don't add their own routes to an area until they have climbed many of the "classics". Since Zion is somewhat far from many climbing centers, and there are many other venues in the area to lure climbers away, there are very few climbers who have done all the classics and feel ready to step out into new territory.
2: There isn't a local scene equivalent to Camp 4. This plays into #1, but also exacerbates the problem because there isn't the same level of competition. What's the fun in working your ass off on a hard FA, if there's nowhere to go to gloat about it? And if there is nobody else waiting in C4 to steal your project, what's the hurry?
3: Yosemite is, pretty much, the only game in town. Any climber within a 500 mile radius climbs in Yosemite, so there are a lot of climbers spending a lot of time there. In zion, if you're the typical well-rounded climber living in the UT/CO/AZ/NV area, you may only make two trips to Zion a year to climb.
4: General Intimdation: I'm always amazed that people who climb 5.12 at Indian Creek will aid through 5.10 on Spaceshot, or 5.11 on Touchstone. For some reason, people are just scared in Zion, and they feel better hanging in aiders.
5: Lack of a comprehensive guidebook. Similar to the peer pressure issue, nothing motivates people like a good guidebook. It may not be a conscious decision, but I think climbers are more likely to pursue new route activity, or repeat hard existing routes when the information is in print and they can measure themselves against that yardstick.
It seems like the more I climb in Zion, the more I hear about other people and what else is going on, but at the same time, I also spend a lot of weekends in the canyon and don't see any other climbers, so I'm that much more aware of the solitude of the place. I wonder if the pace of zion climbing exploration is increasing or decreasing, or staying constant. I have a feeling that torch will always be carried by a small, lonely group of individuals who are motivated mostly by personal reasons, rather than fame, and that's the way it should be.
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tenesmus
Feb 11, 2005, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: 4: General Intimdation: I'm always amazed that people who climb 5.12 at Indian Creek will aid through 5.10 on Spaceshot, or 5.11 on Touchstone. For some reason, people are just scared in Zion, and they feel better hanging in aiders. 5: Lack of a comprehensive guidebook. Similar to the peer pressure issue, nothing motivates people like a good guidebook. It may not be a conscious decision, but I think climbers are more likely to pursue new route activity, or repeat hard existing routes when the information is in print and they can measure themselves against that yardstick.
But maybe that's the way people want it - I mean who wants crowds to come anyway. Maybe you should have to earn your way into knowing what's going on there.
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dmckj
Feb 11, 2005, 11:02 PM
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I think someone said it most appropriately earlier in this thread.....
'Ssssnnaaappp!!!'
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dangle
Feb 12, 2005, 1:00 AM
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Short on action AND articulate!
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dmckj
Feb 12, 2005, 1:29 AM
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Dear fellows of D.R.O.P.D.E.A.D.,
As all of you should be aware from Dangle's last post, there has been a terrible breach of the sanctity of our organization.
It should NOT need to be noted that ALL of you took a solemn blood oath at the base of Touchstone Wall, on a moonless night, sober as judges, with our red black and white worker's party flag flapping gently in the evening canyon breeze. Our carefully planned and subtlely excuted mission of obscuring both Mr. Olevksy and others' fabled past and current climbing histories is in serious jeopardy. I see our conspiratorial efforts crashing down before my eyes. This is indeed a bitter pill.
Our past successes include such genius strokes as convincing others the world was flat, that the Apollo mission really made it to the moon, that Charmin really is more squeezable, that Kennedy was shot by a really pissed-off Marilyn Monroe, and that the Triumvirate Commision rules all.
Upon personal reflection, I must shoulder the major part of the blame as your titular leader. I have allowed us to rest upon the laurels and shoulders of these past successes (deep guilty sigh).
Accordingly......I shall not seek, nor will I accept, the nomination of my party to the term of your next leader. The torch should be passed on to a younger more promising leader....(aid or free)..
but, first, more cheezy intallments and sordid route name histories...
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deuce4
Feb 12, 2005, 1:40 AM
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Nice stories...
Well, as the title of my Zion history article indicates, it was only a "brief history" of the place. It would be nice to recount more pioneers of the 70's and 80's, of which many have not been mentioned, like Chardon and others. Ron O has berated me several times for not including Scott Fisher in the brief history, I know Fisher did some bold routes, but not sure of where he pushed the standards in Zion. He used to come stay with me a few times when I was living in Hurricane, and we talked more about exploring the Himilayan regions (we were talking about guiding a trip to Nameless Tower the year he died) than about our climbs in Zion, so I am sure his modesty left much unsaid. Would like to hear more. When I wrote that history for the Bjonstadt guide (for the return of a full set of Bjornstadt Desert Rock guides!), I was looking at the outline of individuals who contibuted a sizable quantity of new routes. I knew absolutely that it left out a lot of pioneers, but it was limited to a few pages. I will have to dig out the box (a big box!) of binders of Zion topos and history sometime. Personally, I'm fascinated by the folks in the 30's who made the first forays on the wild vertical there. And how about that Beckey route on the Great White Throne--what a story that is--any of you new guys been on that? Supposed to only be 5.7. Would like to get my butt up there someday, probably need to train more. By the way, I think Fred is in in perpetual pursuit for partners for Touchstone, would love to hear about a ascent of that by him one of these days.
Stories: The moments I remember about Zion were times like when I was driving by one day after a light rain and the wall on Abraham was literally blindingly shining, it was so beautiful. I hiked up to the base immediately, finding the hidden paradise below, and became driven to climb it. Extracting my buddy Walt from Yosemite took some doing, and it was an awesome adventure. Lots of intense overhanging nailing, some bold free, and sporty boltless belays which had to be extensively engineered. We were in our element! We almost died on the descent--we only brought 4 gallons of water and it was hot--in the 100's-- and ran out the morning of day 4. We still found the energy to hike up to the actual summit. Our final day's descent was intense: dehydrated beyond belief to the point where every motion was excrutiating pain, like knitting needles piercing our flesh. At one point we rappelled from a single 5/8" piton hammered into a 1/4" hole in the softest of soft white Zion rock (it was still wobbling around that flaring hole). It was a pure hanging belay--no stance at all, near vertical. I still remember Walt flattening himself against the wall pushing with both hands flat against the loose piton with his eyes scrunched shut as I began the next rappel, which led to a small sloping ledge with a bush.
When Walt arrived, I was huddled in the little shade of the bush, only about two feet high, feeling near dead and exhausted beyond belief. Walt joined me. We sat there for some time. Then one of us managed the energy to get up and pull the rope. Stuck! A feeble effort, then back to the bush. Walt did the same. After a few rounds of this, we both clipped our jumars onto the line and tugged together. Still nothing. Back to the bush for quite a while. The silence was sweet and it began to seem like a good place to die. Then Walt got up in a burst of energy, clipped his jugs onto the line, and started jumping insanely on the line, cussing and screaming. Then: POW! both ends of the rope came down at once. The supertape sling must have broken. Walt lost his balance and was hopping one legged toward the edge, a 300 foot drop into the hanging valley below. Right on the edge he made a series of one legged hops, tettering on the brink. From the bush (not an anchor, just a twig really), I watched helplessly and trying to will his energy back to center, much like I sometimes do when I'm bowling a gutter ball. For a moment I imagined the fate, stuck there with and no rope and thoughts of my poor friend Walt perished below, and waiting to die myself (there was no chance of a rescue and there's no line of sight from the interior of the hanging valley to anywhere accessible without some serious climbing. Then, beyond all realms of physics and notions of center of balance, Walt regained his balance and crawled back to our stance. A close one.
The next few hours didn't seem so bad after that, and eventually we made it to the hanging waterfall between Abraham and Issac, running with sweet liquid pure lovely H20!
I think I may have typed up this story before, but it was fun to recount it here.
cheers
jm
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dangle
Feb 12, 2005, 6:01 AM
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Well it was a table of mixed allegiances tonight (a friend of Ammon's sat next to me and called Justin a "f_cking jew". Really! And Ammon told me he hadn't seen any anti-semitism around here!) and Steve did outlast me despite my taking a huge pot when there were two 6s showing on the flop and I got my fourth on the river. Haven't pulled four of a kind often.
John, thanks for a good story and no trash.
Well Scott was not one to crow about higher standards or more walls but he walked the talk. There were others in the '70s especially the NOLS crowd which included Stacy, the Mikes (Alison and Stern), and second only to Scott, Wes Krause. But Scott led by example and few now can appreciate the boldness it took in the years BC (before cams).
As I recall Chardon showed in '81, but I'm certain that Dave and Josh Lieberman were on Touchstone in March, '80. They nearly made the top and later Jones berated the tree, but I remember doing the tree on Royal Arches and feel privileged.
Touchstone didn't go hammerless until May,'81. Fred and I went on it in the mid nineties, but he had trouble with pitch two. I saw him there again recently.
Too bad the DDs don't want to get their charity a big check I don't suppose that they BSed about someone they describe as so abusively litigious.
Why not mollify such a loose cannon?
Risk?
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dangle
Feb 12, 2005, 6:04 AM
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Well it was a table of mixed allegiances tonight (a friend of Ammon's sat next to me and called Justin a "f_cking jew". Really! And Ammon told me he hadn't seen any anti-semitism around here!) and Steve did outlast me despite my taking a huge pot when there were two 6s showing on the flop and I got my fourth on the river. Haven't pulled four of a kind often.
John, thanks for a good story and no trash.
Well Scott was not one to crow about higher standards or more walls but he walked the talk. There were others in the '70s especially the NOLS crowd which included Stacy, the Mikes (Alison and Stern), and second only to Scott, Wes Krause. But Scott led by example and few now can appreciate the boldness it took in the years BC (before cams).
As I recall Chardon showed in '81, but I'm certain that Dave and Josh Lieberman were on Touchstone in March, '80. They nearly made the top and later Jones berated the tree, but I remember doing the tree on Royal Arches and feel privileged.
Touchstone didn't go hammerless until May,'81. Fred and I went on it in the mid nineties, but he had trouble with pitch two. I saw him there again recently.
Too bad the DDs don't want to get their charity a big check I don't suppose that they BSed about someone they describe as so abusively litigious.
Why not mollify such a loose cannon?
Risk?
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dangle
Feb 12, 2005, 6:08 AM
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damn system.
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dmckj
Feb 12, 2005, 5:21 PM
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Gentle Thread Reader,
As tiresome as it is, it becomes necessary to once again 'deconstruct' Dangle's tenuous thread of reason. This is so the reader doesn't lose him/herself in the landscape of his constantly-shifting arguments.
Breaking this down is sort of like hunting the now-extinct passenger pigeon, as follows..
'Dozens of birds sometimes were killed thus at a single shot. In one case seventy-one birds were killed by two shots. A single shot from the old flint-lock, single-barreled gun, fired into a tree, sometimes would procure a back load of pigeons.'
Really....I mean where does one begin? It is too easy, and therefore hardly sporting.
First, Dangle employs lots of Machiavellian and psychological tools to garner 'friends' and support to his 'side', whatever that is (and what, exactly, is his 'side' or 'issue'?). I pointed several of these out earlier in this thread, but let's run through a few of the new ones....
John, thanks for a good story and no trash.
This technique is called 'splitting', where one portrays one as either all good or all bad. Dangle feebly tried this with both Devo and BSmoot earlier this thread. Once he realized that he couldn't split them off they went from being 'good' or at least 'convertible' to being the subject of scorn and members of D.R.O.P.D.E.A.D. (which of course they secretly are). Now they are to be subjected to a lie detector test. One might logically ask: about what?
But splitting John M. off as 'good' presents some serious difficulties for Dangle. This is because Dangle's premise of a conspiracy on my part to usurp and lie about Zion climbing history is based in largest part upon Middendorff's 'brief history'. Now, the author himself comes out and says 'hey it was a brief history and not complete, no bad intentions, etc.' and that's that.
But wait!! Dangle has always implied Deuce was 'in' on the conspiracy as a 'vested interest' (re-read his comments). And now he's not??? But how could that be, because Jones never writes about history (at least until this thread), not once! Not ever!
"KAPFUMP!!!" That is the sound of Dangle's twisted calumnies of 15 years or so collapsing under their own weight. Sort of like in Raiders of the Lost Ark where all of the bad ju-ju ultimately gets sucked back into the Ark of the Covenants and the lid slams shut.
Second: Dangle employs a mix of McCarthyesque and 'Big Lie' tactics.
Example: Dangle states that Jones should just 'come clean' and 'publish' and 'admit' his transgressions.
This recalls Joseph McCarthy getting up and blustering about 'Are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party? I have documents here that prove....'
As we all know, McCarthy did not, in fact, mostly did not have any meaningful documents. But he brought down a LOT of people in the process.
Again, the simple and ever-present problem is (as stated previously) that there IS no history of Jones presenting histories or bad dates or lying about partners. My topos always have been, and always will be, simple 'truth'. Just as with McCarthy, Dangle tries to imply a non-answer to his charges is a form of guilt. Never mind that the claims he claims were made by myself are nowhere to be found.
(And let's recall, gentle reader, that the only person caught in INTENTIONAL lies about Zion climbing history has been Ron).
This seamlessly leads into the 'Big Lie'. Ron Olevsky has for so long repeated his conspiratorial stories and slander against me that folks accept it as apriori 'truth' (e.g. good example being the well-meaning 'no_one'). Ron, being a keen student of psychology, knows this all-too-well and there is no small irony in the fact that he, who likes to portray himself as a residual victim of the biggest lie of all (the perpetration of the Holocaust and its denial) uses the exact same Big Lie tools that the Nazis did (e.g. 'Work Will Set You Free'). To call this shameless and conflicted would seem to be on the mark.
You see, none of this is about what Dangle says it is. There was no conspiracy, no lies, no deceits, no usurping of any history anywhere (ask Bjonstad and Middendorff). Nothing! The only printed material I ever had anything to do with ('84 climbing) is accurate to the 'T' for the parts I submitted. Since then, until this web site, I had written NOTHING about Zion.
And, the clincher, over the years I never responded to Dangle's lies about his first ascent partners for Spaceshot or his passive presentation (to put it kindly) of Equinox having been freed by he and Straussman (see his latest rap sheet in the R+I article). And yet I am supposed to 'fess up' or 'come clean' about something!!!??? Like what?? (BTW, to clarify a point Dangle thinks he 'got me' on, at the time I wrote 'BG Goes to Zion' I had never met Scott Fisher. I did, however, meet him AFTERWARDS, and this consisted of nothing more than a hello and a handshake. I never knew the guy.)
Meanwhile, the wonderful stories about Dangle on this site are all on the mark and true (well, O.K., maybe the finger of fate wasn't THAT overchalked). As you have read firsthand, Dangle has alienated more partners than most people have ever climbed with, and, yes, he did take me to court over a collect phone call of under $5, even though I had done HIM a favor. And this self-proclaimed protector of the rock has put up drilled pocket-hole routes (complete with drain holes for the drilled deep finer pockets) in Snow and Zion canyons, the most notable of which was in the Temple of Sinawava and wall and he had the gall to call 'Crimes Against Nature' (Not to worry: I erased this route with the help of Mark Austin). Meanwhile, he asks thread readers on this very site as to how to best 'preserve' routes from damage? Breathtaking audacity is about the kindest way one could describe this.
No matter how much manipulative blubbering Ron does, he can't change these simple truths.
Don't worry, more installments are coming your way soon!
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dmckj
Feb 12, 2005, 5:24 PM
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(the first post of this had an error...please read this instead)
Gentle Thread Reader,
As tiresome as it is, it becomes necessary to once again 'deconstruct' Dangle's tenuous thread of reason. This is so the reader doesn't lose him/herself in the landscape of his constantly-shifting arguments.
Breaking this down is sort of like hunting the now-extinct passenger pigeon, as follows..
'Dozens of birds sometimes were killed thus at a single shot. In one case seventy-one birds were killed by two shots. A single shot from the old flint-lock, single-barreled gun, fired into a tree, sometimes would procure a back load of pigeons.'
Really....I mean where does one begin? It is too easy, and therefore hardly sporting.
First, Dangle employs lots of Machiavellian and psychological tools to garner 'friends' and support to his 'side', whatever that is (and what, exactly, is his 'side' or 'issue'?). I pointed several of these out earlier in this thread, but let's run through a few of the new ones....
"John, thanks for a good story and no trash." says Dangle.
This technique is called 'splitting', where one portrays one as either all good or all bad. Dangle feebly tried this with both Devo and BSmoot earlier this thread. Once he realized that he couldn't split them off they went from being 'good' or at least 'convertible' to being the subject of scorn and members of D.R.O.P.D.E.A.D. (which of course they secretly are). Now they are to be subjected to a lie detector test. One might logically ask: about what?
But splitting John M. off as 'good' presents some serious difficulties for Dangle. This is because Dangle's premise of a conspiracy on my part to usurp and lie about Zion climbing history is based in largest part upon Middendorff's 'brief history'. Now, the author himself comes out and says 'hey it was a brief history and not complete, no bad intentions, etc.' and that's that.
But wait!! Dangle has always implied Deuce was 'in' on the conspiracy as a 'vested interest' (re-read his comments). And now he's not??? But how could that be, because Jones never writes about history (at least until this thread), not once! Not ever!
"KAPFUMP!!!" That is the sound of Dangle's twisted calumnies of 15 years or so collapsing under their own weight. Sort of like in Raiders of the Lost Ark where all of the bad ju-ju ultimately gets sucked back into the Ark of the Covenants and the lid slams shut.
Second: Dangle employs a mix of McCarthyesque and 'Big Lie' tactics.
Example: Dangle states that Jones should just 'come clean' and 'publish' and 'admit' his transgressions.
This recalls Joseph McCarthy getting up and blustering about 'Are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party? I have documents here that prove....'
As we all know, McCarthy did not, in fact, mostly did not have any meaningful documents. But he brought down a LOT of people in the process.
Again, the simple and ever-present problem is (as stated previously) that there IS no history of Jones presenting histories or bad dates or lying about partners. My topos always have been, and always will be, simple 'truth'. Just as with McCarthy, Dangle tries to imply a non-answer to his charges is a form of guilt. Never mind that the claims he claims were made by myself are nowhere to be found.
(And let's recall, gentle reader, that the only person caught in INTENTIONAL lies about Zion climbing history has been Ron).
This seamlessly leads into the 'Big Lie'. Ron Olevsky has for so long repeated his conspiratorial stories and slander against me that folks accept it as apriori 'truth' (e.g. good example being the well-meaning 'no_one'). Ron, being a keen student of psychology, knows this all-too-well and there is no small irony in the fact that he, who likes to portray himself as a residual victim of the biggest lie of all (the perpetration of the Holocaust and its denial) uses the exact same Big Lie tools that the Nazis did (e.g. 'Work Will Set You Free'). To call this shameless and conflicted would seem to be on the mark.
You see, none of this is about what Dangle says it is. There was no conspiracy, no lies, no deceits, no usurping of any history anywhere (ask Bjonstad and Middendorff). Nothing! The only printed material I ever had anything to do with ('84 climbing) is accurate to the 'T' for the parts I submitted. Since then, until this web site, I had written NOTHING about Zion.
And, the clincher, over the years I never responded to Dangle's lies about his first ascent partners for Spaceshot or his passive presentation (to put it kindly) of Equinox having been freed by he and Straussman (see his latest rap sheet in the R+I article). And yet I am supposed to 'fess up' or 'come clean' about something!!!??? Like what?? (BTW, to clarify a point Dangle thinks he 'got me' on, at the time I wrote 'BG Goes to Zion' I had never met Scott Fisher. I did, however, meet him AFTERWARDS, and this consisted of nothing more than a hello and a handshake. I never knew the guy.)
Meanwhile, the wonderful stories about Dangle on this site are all on the mark and true (well, O.K., maybe the finger of fate wasn't THAT overchalked). As you have read firsthand, Dangle has alienated more partners than most people have ever climbed with, and, yes, he did take me to court over a collect phone call of under $5, even though I had done HIM a favor. And this self-proclaimed protector of the rock has put up drilled pocket-hole routes (complete with drain holes for the drilled deep finer pockets) in Snow and Zion canyons, the most notable of which was in the Temple of Sinawava and wall and he had the gall to call 'Crimes Against Nature' (Not to worry: I erased this route with the help of Mark Austin). Meanwhile, he asks thread readers on this very site as to how to best 'preserve' routes from damage? Breathtaking audacity is about the kindest way one could describe this.
No matter how much manipulative blubbering Ron does, he can't change these simple truths.
Don't worry, more installments are coming your way soon!
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dmckj
Feb 12, 2005, 6:31 PM
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What the critics are saying.....
(I had to post this as it is just too damned funny!)
In reply to: Just wanted to say how much fun its been following the Zion History Thread. What a hoot! As predictable as an escaped Vietnamese hooker voluntarily returning to her brothel, Ron finally shows his face again. With the grandiose flourish of an oratory wino on the third straight day of a non-stop bender, the man crawls out from under the pile of baked mouse turds to attempt a complete reinvention of the playing field. Fortunately, you beat him down quickly and summarily, with the speed and precision of a lexicological surgeon. Other than the excellent tack you took with your latest responses, perhaps it might be in order to up the financial stakes to some ridiculous level commensurate with the mocking Ron deserves for his "bounty." |
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dangle
Feb 12, 2005, 6:47 PM
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to the rest of you,
Its crappy weather.
To Jones,
I think you are protesting just a little too much. I got on John's case and still await a response on the Iron Messiah issues.
15 years of slander? Well Scott hasn't been gone 9 years yet and besides telling the truth about who deserves credit for the late seventies (and with all your hot air you haven't said word one on THAT) where is the slander?
For example, I haven't said something like "your obsession with the possession of friendship harkens to grade school."
Nor have I said, "you point out my loss of friendships because you're overly sensitive about the many you've lost. Did Stan Adams climb any more with you? We put up one of the best routes in the Reef in '87. Did Mike Stults? Saw him last week. And what of your other partner on Moses? You called him a few weeks later?"
(Most desert climbers have seen my name with Dave Mondeau's on some of our best climbs, but still another never saw publication. More on Abbey Tower later.)
Nor have I repeated any of the things that you said about your fellow DDs like when I saw you the day after I met Mike in the Kolob when he was driving with a friend to soCal. That really WOULD be 'splitting'. Rather it pleases me to now see you all as a "team".
Once again. In cyber-space. Where is the list of '70s Zion FAs ???(or didn't you suggest on pg 7 that you were indeed a '70s pioneer?)
What is the response of the DROP DEAD-Woods alliance to my offer?
What's the matter? Don't want my money? Jones, you were the one who requested a check.
OK folks adjust your thermostats. More hot air on the way....
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brianinslc
Feb 12, 2005, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: Personally, I'm fascinated by the folks in the 30's who made the first forays on the wild vertical there.
Me too. I've always been curious about especially the ascent of Cathedral. Feller that climbed it in the early 30's (?) supposedly did it in a day from the valley floor. I'm wondering what route he may have taken to ascend to the summit. Only way that seems reasonable is to drop into Behunin then wrap around and ascend up low angle slopes to the mesa. From there...it still seems a bit of a scramble to top out on Cathedral. We traversed around the summit block and the only "easy" option we found was a 5.4ish solo scramble for 50 or so feet up the eastern side. Once on top, no evidence of a prior ascent (we spent a fair bit of time combing the area for cairns, etc). Pretty interesting.
What I wonder is...did the feller just climb one of the Majestic summit blocks (the easier one located to the north with the lower angle slope) and maybe that was back then, what was referred to as "Cathedral" since its a bit higher (6955' versus 6930')? Pretty amazing ascent, either way, given the times and that there wasn't any Walter's Wiggles back then, either.
Great history, John. Folks have apparently been descending the canyon you pioneered between Abraham and Isaac as a canyoneering route. Pretty neat. I'm guessin', with flowing water, you had a bunch of swimming in there? Must have been pretty brrr cold after the initial welcome wetness.
Thanks!
-Brian in SLC
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deuce4
Feb 12, 2005, 7:01 PM
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another story interlude:
How about the Rockhouse in Springdale? No better climber's institution existed save possibly for Camp 4 in my climbing experience. The Rock House was built in the days of the CCC, during the time when unemployed depression workers built the great trails of Zion: Angel's Landing, the Watchman trail, Observation Point. The same incredible craftsmanship and fine stonework of these trails was used to build some unique homes in Springdale, the Rock House being one of them. It was occupied by the principal residents, Brad Quinn and Darren Cope. Darren's uncle who owned it at the time. It was a meeting place for climbers from all over the world, the grassy front lawn being the best place imaginable to rack up for a route, with onlookers and kabitzers on the deck looking over and drinking beer. There we could explain such things as the intracasies of hooking as we displayed our mighty hook racks to the admiring crowd.
The treehouse Brad had built on the side of the house was the most awesome part of it: about 30 feet off the ground, a double decker, and requiring 5.7 climbing to get into it, it was the perfect place to look out over the cliffs smoking and drinking, before and after a Zion ascent. A great place to sleep, too, especially on the lower waterproofed room during a crisp Zion rainstorm.
The back yard was the killer spot for Dutch Oven cookouts, delicious dishes and deserts baking in pits and cooked by the finest mesquite coals. We always followed the local tradition of, when opening a bottle of scotch or whiskey, immediately crushing the cap beneath our feet. Tales would be told, and bold plans, forgotten by morning, would be made.
Sometimes things would get out of hand: Big parties upset the nearby trailer park residents, and generally Darren would have to take the heat and try to calm the energy down. Just before the demise of the Rock House (sold to a quiet family whose first act was to cut down that magnificent tree which housed the treehouse), the Rock House got a bad rap for corrupting the local underaged gals who had discovered our palace of sin. This was also in the days of Springdale where you could buy property for less than a few million and creative folks like Mark Austin were making a killing on real estate development. Those were the days.
Hanging out with Brad and Darren was a treat. Generally you could just show up and throw down a sleeping bag on their floor or the treehouse. Although a spectacular climber, Brad was hard to get out on the crags, preferring instead to pursue his craft of stonework and building projects. He was, maybe still is, a tough one to corrupt into blowing off work and going climbing, but watching him fire up the typical "Zion 5.10" (the max given rating at the time for many of us) was watching a powerhouse. If Brad or Darren weren't available, it was only a matter of time before another climber on a roadtrip would show up for an adventure. One of my favorite series of moments there was watching the progess of Darren, a hard worker in the building trade, who didn't really climb a lot, but must have been occasionally inspired to get out on the rocks from all the climbers who stayed at his house. Darren would often sit with us on the porch of The Rock House and look out to the awesome head-on view of the West Temple. Generations of Cope's had lived in Springdale, and one of Darren's relatives, way back when, had done the first ascent of the West Temple via the 4th class hiking route up the ridge, and he woud often tell us stories about it. By and by, Darren dreamed of climbing it up the center of the 2000 foot face. Years went by, but I remember the moment when we were all having a drink on the porch, and the evening light on the West Temple was especially magnificent, and Darren dispelled all the doubt that had been there before about climbing it, and he and Brad made the decision to team up for it. After 3 days on the wall, they made their ascent of "Gittin Western" the local parlance for doing something pretty damn hard.
There must be lots of other stories of that magic climber's hang. It was a sad day when the place was sold, necessitating the use of the crowded campground for Zion basecamps.
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dmckj
Feb 12, 2005, 8:23 PM
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'It's a Small World' interlude......
When I started climbing in Zion less and less (the result of caving in Lechuguilla more and more) the Rock House was just getting up and running. Aside from taking an occasional shower, I recall lusting after one of those soon-to-be-corrupted female youths.
I met Brad and Darren pretty much when they started climbing, and it seems to me, I met them through Stacy Allison who I believe is the one responsible for getting those guys started. In those days Brad was working with Mark and Stacy's construction crews....which leads into the 'small world' story.
In 1980 my friend Josh Lieberman (the one tormented off of Moonlight by Ron) and I decided it was time to go die, er I mean climb in Alaska. Per chance we teamed up with Bill Kitsen and Geoff Radford (both deceased) for an alpine-style ascent of the West Face of Mt. Huntington. Owing to persistent bad weather we, literally, dropped onto the glacier, set up our tent and started up the climb, in Josh's and my case all in the same day. We noted there were another two tents on the glacier, but the occupants were gone. We headed up the route in the teeth of a storm that sent constant spin drift mini-avalanches down the steep fluted snow/ice face we were climbing. Somewhere in the midst of this, out of the swirling greyish white sky, I heard a woman's voice. Once, then again......What the heck? It seemed fairly mystical at the time, and my partners told me I was hallucinating. O.K., maybe so. That night we slept 4 of us in a 2 man snow cave, two on top of two. It snowed so much that night we had to dig ourselves OUT of the snow cave the next morning.
We climbed to the summit ridge, completing the West Face line (ends at ridge) but, being strung out with no bivy gear, food or fuel (we were going for it at this point) and facing a BLACK incoming storm, we bailed from below the last corniced summit block. Good thing we did, because as we completed the second to last of 25 straight full rope rappels a ferocious 9-day storm blew in and pinned us into tents and snow caves for the duration. Elapsed time of ascent-descent, 3.5 days.
After we pulled into camp in the blizzard we made the acquaintance of the folks in the tents. They asked us where we had disappeared to. We told them. They didn't believe us and, in reality, were pissed. They had already been there for about 20 days trying to climb Huntington as well, but had retreated in the weather we started in. One of them was a woman. We sat around and enjoyed hot drinks, getting slowly buried by the intense snowfall.
Years later, I was hanging in the Bit and Spur. Mark Austin and I had become friends and he was with his wife, Stacy, that night. We got to chatting, and she mentioned she had been climbing in Alaska several years prior.
'Oh really, where?' I asked.
'In the Alaska Range' she said
'When was that?'
'1980. We tried a new route up the West Face of Huntington.' she said.
'Wait a minute...I was on the W. Face of Huntington in April of 1980!'
In that moment we looked at each other with the startling realization and said simultaneously 'Oh my god, that was you!?'.
Turns out it was HER voice I had heard in the storm that day!
Stacy and I ended up doing a new route together in the East Temple. I named it 'Uncertain Fates' because she was going through marriage difficulties at the time. It was a great route and we had a perfect two days of climbing.
Instead of the Rock House, I used to hang with Mark and Stacy in their palacial house on the mesa. One of the coolest places I have ever hung out in my life. During one visit I noticed that one of the BIG windows in their bedroom was smashed, pretty thoroughly. I asked Mark what had happened.
'Oh that? Stacy did that. She got pissed and threw the T.V. through the window.' Mark said matter-of-factly.
Didn't surprise me. She was/is a very tough (and sweet) lady. She went on to become the first U.S. woman to climb Everest.
That didn't surprise me either!
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bsmoot
Feb 12, 2005, 11:03 PM
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John:
Great tales! Thanks. Two of my old climbing buddies have climbed the Becky route on the N.W. face of the Great White Throne. Jim Dockery climbed it around 76' (remember Jim did the Shady Lady route on Mt Hooker?) My other friends, Rick Wyatt & Dave Jenkins climbed it the next year. After 1 attempt, they decided to try it in a day...ambious plans for a grade 6.
They packed super light, free climbing a lot and running it out. In that lower deep, sparsly protected chimney, Rick got way above his protection, so he moved into where it narrowed to a squeeze. Thrashing around, he soon found that his helmet was stuck. unable to move it, he unbuckled it & climbed past it. Finally, he was able to kick it loose. Higher up, they made good time to Last Chance Ledge. (Jim built a fire here on his ascent) With some daylight left, they ascended the crux aid pitch off the ledge. Some of the old Beckey bolts were sticking way out on the highly modeled, soft rock. Cleaning, some pins didn't require a hammer. At sunset they reached the summit, thus completeing, to my knowledge, the first one day ascent of a grade 6 in Zion...1977.
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dangle
Feb 13, 2005, 12:23 AM
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Just under 20 years ago at a party Brad's mom Kathy approached me saying her teenage son wanted to start climbing and would I teach him some safety techniques.
We went to Snow Canyon and did some climbs during which I mentioned my back problems. Brad suggested I visit a chiropracter by the name of Tebbs which I did with no result.
Six weeks later was my Valley of Fire bust and with all the abuse my back went out on me. Later when I sued the State of Nevada in Federal Court for violating my civil rights we had a secret weapon.
The Tebbs bill.
The state's attorney had claimed that I had only pretended to have back problems but after seeing the bill the judge became very sympathetic. We won the case and the state didn't bother to appeal.
On 9/29/88 an old man ran a stop sign in Hurricane. Not long after I got my first ambulance ride to the hospital. My spine was fractured (T12). Later that day pumped full of drugs laying in a hospital bed I got a call from Brad. We had had plans to get together the next day and climb. I told him my back was broken.
"Does that mean we're not going to go climbing?"
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dmckj
Feb 13, 2005, 5:54 AM
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I am all for giving credit where credit is due.
Funny story Dangle!!!!!!
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no_one
Feb 13, 2005, 6:12 PM
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Deuce4 said,
[How about the Rockhouse in Springdale? No better climber's institution existed save possibly for Camp 4]
I've heard a similar statment from a local Zion climber. John, you explained what happened to the "Rock House", but what do you think happened to that "Energy". Where is Zions camp 4 now? Why is it that the energy in "Springdel" has shifted from,... "hey what's up, you guys climbin in the park? Oh yeh! What you got your eye on? Here, wanna hit? Cool brothers, good luck climb safe."..... to the present day feel of..... "well that guy at the Gear Shop sure is cool but where are all the other climbers? How many damn climbing stickers do I need on this piece of shit truck to attract a parnter?.....
You know, if Zion wasn't so magicly delisious, and didn't have the ability to consume a persons thoughts and feelings every time they turn and head east on hwy 9, (even after nearly 6 years of living local, Leeds 3 yrs, Hurricane 3). I would have to say that Springdel Would feel cold in the middle of the summer.
Now, I realize that with a name like several of the repeat offenders on this thread, it's probably not to difficult to get offered a beer in any climbing community, but for us little guys with only a few FA's......... What do you think?
How do you guys do that Quote thing?
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rockprodigy
Feb 14, 2005, 2:53 PM
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I have often wondered the same thing: Where are all the climbers? I think it's funny that every couple years, someone writes a $hitty magazine article about zion, and they always hype up the "Mean Bean" and the "Bit and Spur" as the "climbers hangs". Well I think they forgot to tell the climbers. Maybe that was true in the 80's/90's, but I spent a LOT of time in Zion this past fall, and I don't think I saw any climbers at the Mean Bean (I admit to giving up on the Bit and Spur long ago).
I kinda like not having a scene. When I go to Yosemite, I avoid C4 at all costs.
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 2:54 PM
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I had to chuckle over two things in the posts regarding the Zion 'spirit' and Camp IV.
First, I always thought of Camp IV as a depressing semi-urban slum, or maybe a refugee camp. Two of my Yosemite stays I hung there, but most of the time preferred the River campgrounds. Sure, there was a spirit, but I actually found that Camp IV often served as a good excuse for folks NOT to climb. If there was a real spirit, it was in the old Yosemite Lodge common area during bad weather. The place would fill up with all of the Camp IV vermin to the point where paying hotel guests were visibly afraid to enter. Pretty funny. Then there were complete A--holes like Tony Yaniro who used to lie prone on the floor blocking people's paths and audibly swearing at tourists if they woke him up.
Meanwhile, for most of my climbing years in Zion there simply weren't ANY other climber to share a spirit with! On the other hand, I had a lot of good times and carry fond memories of the Springdale people. Marcus of the Bit and Spur, several of the Park Rangers, and I fondly recall a communal Thanksgiving we held in the Bit with all the locals. One of the nicest I've had. Lots of good people, you just have to know where and who they are.
Sadly, the Zion campgrounds are the only place to really hang, and I say sadly because they are ridiculously expensive and offer slum-services much like Camp IV. I literally used to drive through the campgrounds twice a day looking for new partners once prior ones had left. Discouraging. Sometimes week would pass before I would see another climber. I ran into Bill Forrest that way, and also Paul Turecki.
The main factor in the lack of a hang place, I suppose, is that people who want to climb in Zion end up living in Springdale, work part-time and thus never go to the campgrounds. They go to the Mean Bean, and that is, actually, an extremely good and gregarious place to hang.
Frankly, I like the Springdale 'upgrade' because at least you can now get decent food, more often than not served by some cute young waitress who says 'Are you REALLY climbers?' as if that actually meant something good. Heck, I'll go for that any day over a cold breakfast in the campground!
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 4:28 PM
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Jones you are a shameless wretch.
The story you tell of Yaniro who has recieved praise from me as a one time partner unlike your other drop deader (with appropriate initials) is actually one that I USED to tell but no longer do. I have outlived its protagonist, NOT YANIRO but another climber.
This particularly rude fellow lay across a threshold and forced a tourist to step over him who excused himself in the process. Responding to the tourist's german accent this climber called him a Nazi. The tourist was obviously infuriated and I was embarassed as hell. I intercepted the tourist outside and apologized assuring him that not all climbers are so rude.
He was still agitated. He rolled up his sleeve and showed me the numbers tattooed on his arm!!!!!!
Jones has heard me tell that story and now retells it so that when I correct him I might appear as a person who encounters antisemitic prejudice everywhere in the climbing community. In truth that is the only other time besides THE DISPLAY OF SWASTIKAS THAT JONES" FRIEND DEFENDED that I can recall such.
Gee Dave is tricky. Did you catch the way he wriggled on the contradiction?
Scott said he met you in 10/83. When was it then? Where is that list of '70s climbs?
This is just another example of Jonesheimer's disorder.
We ALL have selective memories. Every one of us.
Few people have however elevated it to an art form.
Step up to the plate Dave. If you're telling the truth you'll get that check. You'll be a hero to the climbing community earning them a ten grand bonus. It will help you establish (yeah right) the validity of your BS.
I'll even throw in that apology you asked for.
Isn't that EVERYTHING you asked for? The offer is fair enough!
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 5:01 PM
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And he calls ME what? Machiavellian?
Step up to the plate.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Yeah you're right. Should have called him the antagonist.
But then I think many are beginning to figure out who that REALLY is.
C'mon guys. Step up to the plate!
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 5:56 PM
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Wow...fascinating....
I'm sure there is a full chapter on you in the 'DSM-IV'.
Ya see dear reader, everything revolves around Dangle, is about Dangle, is for Dangle, or against Dangle (splitting again). That's pretty much the lifestyle.
How nice of Dangle to 'adopt' my life. I was in Yosemite at the time, and in the Lodge when the incident I report happened. I didn't see it, but someone reported it to me seconds later, and said it was Yaniro (whom there was no mistaking). If not, my apologies to Yaniro.
Now you can see, dear reader, why I long ago stopped talking to Dangle about routes.
However, it is just sooooo... typical of Dangle to take a story to heart that didn't mention him and make it his own while at the same time building himself up (the hero responds) and putting someone else down (the memory-challenged liar adopting one of 'Ron's' priceless tales of selfless integrity.....sort of internally conflicted are we Dangle?). That makes about as much sense as the self-proclaimed rock conservator putting up Crimes Against Nature in the Temple of Sinawava.
My prior comments all stand on their own. I've always had this quaint notion that money had nothing to do with truth, but apparently Dangle can't much handle one and so resorts to the other.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 6:11 PM
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Well he's right about one thing.
I can't handle my money.
Gee what should I do with it next....?
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 6:21 PM
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First he's an a__hole then its just a story you've heard.
Wriggle. Wriggle.
Step up to the plate guys.
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 6:25 PM
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route histories....continued...
Crimes Against Nature
Rating: Not rated because it no longer exists.
F.A.: Dangle and ?
Location: Temple of Sinawava, near Tourist Crack, on one of the most beautifully dark and perfect desert varnished faces you have ever seen.
History: Ask Dangle, who put it up. I heard about this route, I believe, because it was mentioned in a climbing rag. I could not believe that even someone with the propensity to drill such as Dangle would take a Bosch to such a beautiful wall to construct a route consisting of greater than 90% drilled finger pockets up a face with, effectively, almost zero natural holds or features. I was wrong: he did. Mark Austin and I erased the route soon thereafter by backleading the climb and putting sand and epoxy in the holes.
Reason for climb: Apparently, Dangle felt it incumbent upon himself to drill-out a phenomanally gorgeous and pristine desert varnished wall in one of the most sacred spots in a sandstone canyon that I know of.
Kind of makes one wonder who was the guy who drilled out all the other boulders that have been mentioned in this thread......
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 6:39 PM
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Changing the subject are we?
I would be happy to debate the drilled pocket issues. Both those that I DID create and those that have merely been credited to me.
Speaking of things that have been credited to me,
and your CREDIBILITY,
step up to the plate guys.
And Dave, where's that list?
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 6:40 PM
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Oh yeah....
I should add that I too stepped over 'the guy' who was lying on the floor coming into the Yosemite lodge from the parking lot. I thought he was an ass well independent of anything he said to a tourist.
Hey, I like tourists. They tend to be charming, bathed, well-behaved, and, because of the prohibitions against feeding animals, they often take in and feed climbers (I think that is still legal?). Of course, that only encourages the lifestyle, doesn't it????
Coming up, mini-installment....'Drinking Beer, Are Ya?'......
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 6:42 PM
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Great Folks!!
Dangle will now explain the insightful and visionary reasoning he used to justify putting up CRIMES AGAINST NATURE....
can't wait for THAT one!!
I'd like to hear about it move for move...
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deuce4
Feb 14, 2005, 6:53 PM
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As the wise Werner said in a similar thread on Supertopo.com,
"There’s a lot of people who feel that way , then there’s a lot of people who feel the other way. The correct answer is what’s important. It’s there, but hasn’t been given yet on this thread. Who will give it?
Will they say it can’t be done?
Will the wheels keep spinning around and round? "
Having just discovered Supertopo forums and Rockclimbing.com forums.
Supertopo has some cool threads going too. May have to switch over if it gets too brutal over here with the Ron/Dave show. I especially cringe at the racist comments. The Largo/Werner show is going on over there right now...
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 7:05 PM
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Hi John,
Actually, the 'what's important' part has been spelled out at several different points in this thread, from the start of my input. Nothing missing on that score. Deserves a re-read before you make comments like that.
Further, the rock being destroyed (e.g. Crimes, etc) is most definitely important. Not to mention trashing people for 15 years. That's important. Abusing what were friendships. That's important.
If none of that is important, what is?
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iamthewallress
Feb 14, 2005, 7:35 PM
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In reply to: I kinda like not having a scene. When I go to Yosemite, I avoid C4 at all costs.
Amen!
I go to Yosemite most weekends and C4 about once a year. Even avoiding C4, 'the scene' is hard to escape there. I take vacations to Zion to avoid a scene instead of seek one out. I like that I can get a dinner and drink and no overwhelming scene at the Bit and Spur. Trying to figure out where and what to climb in Zion is part of the fun too. Makes you take a bit more time and thought about what you do before you do it...not always a bad thing.
Thanks for the great stories, everyone.
Were there any other gals putting up routes or of other historical note in Zion besides Stacey Allison and Amanda Tarr?
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 7:36 PM
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I agree with you John. I cringe too. So I'm doing something about it.
Which forum?
And what about "respectively", and Iron Messiah (so as not to split you of course).
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dmckj
Feb 14, 2005, 8:05 PM
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I am the Walrus writes....
In reply to: Were there any other gals putting up routes or of other historical note in Zion besides Stacey Allison and Amanda Tarr?
Good question...
The only other was myself when I dressed up in drag, which wasn't very often since Utah only serves 3.2 beer.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 8:18 PM
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Omigod!
You weren't the....
Never mind.
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jmlangford
Feb 14, 2005, 9:48 PM
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I didn't read everything in this long thread but I will comment on one thing. Anybody that puts a sign in his yard with sawstikas facing the home of a Jewish family is an idiot and won't EVER get any business from me!
Thanks for standing up to jerks like that Ron.
P.S. Keep on standing up for the Second Amendment Ron, for without it, none of the others would exist.
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lambone
Feb 14, 2005, 10:04 PM
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This thread is crazy long...might make for a good read if I am ever sick or really bored.
Ron, got that new R+I with you in it...pretty funny...after seeing you with the Mac 10 I will never diss you on thi site again.
I still think some of your controversial techniques were not really well defined in that article though.
Cheers
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 10:05 PM
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Thank you kindly.
Is this the Jim Langford of the Dating Game?
(Just decided to be more careful about who I'm blowing kisses to...)
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 10:12 PM
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Lambone,
the pen is still mightier than the sword (and its a Mac 11, not mine, a piece of crap and only good for nightime shows with tracers. Give me an H&K any day of the week. I like their motto: In a world of compromise some don't.)
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rocknroll
Feb 14, 2005, 10:26 PM
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In reply to: Wow, D.J. and Mr.O working out the wrinkels of past Zion climbing history!!
Hardly working it out. Looks like two kids in a wet sandbox slinging mud at each other.
Which is so unproductive. Forgiveness would be a better strategy. And I have forgiven you Ron. If you read my posts, I said I even have love for you. But I love the real Olevesky. The guy who proposed the lie decector test and came up with the DROP DEAD accronym. Certainly not some watered down version of Ron that conforms with societies norms, because that ain't you. You're greatness is that you are a screaming intellectual who takes his passions and his believes into his own hands and defends them.
Now dear readers, let's turn the other cheek. Let's remember the old adage "Treat people the way you want to be treated" or "Put yourself in Ron's shoes". Here, he has been exposed, and is obviously embarassed by his actions because it is not the way we are supposed to behave. He is an antagonist. Possibly violent with firearms. Holds grudges and takes people to court over them. He is so unpleasent to be around that people won't climb with him. And if you do climb together, you feel like you are walking on eggshells, to the point that for me, it became dangerous.
Who out there in cyberspace would want such things said about yourself? Not I, although I have heard just about every one of those things (except the violence and firearms) said about me. And I have always let them slide right off me because I know the real truth, and I can live with it. Sometimes the rumor is based on true events and I have to accept that I had made mistakes in the past. This is called "growing" (we learned it after "Sharing" in Kindergarten). In the recent years when I have been around Ron, he seems to have grown as well, and I hope that he can laugh at my dropping the racks and my climber bum attitude as a youth as much as I can laugh about the his yelling for the aspetics in the fass nord and (to most people) his unacceptable behavior.
But is it unacceptable? Let's examine how we measure the severity of the damning statements thus told. Just what constitutes negative behavior? Ron, as a tit-for-tat barb, wanted to stab me with my 'apparant' drug use and that I mentioned this fact to cast him in an ill light.
In reply to: How's this for interesting coincidences; while my herbal preference is well documented Mike Strassman who continued to share my roof and rope into the '90s stated on another thread here that he had done "Peruvian marching powder" on Half Dome yet his "account" suggests it was I who carried cocaine in his epic fable. Anybody else notice how often Mike posts in the wee hours of the morning?
Well, that bounced off me as well. I added the comments because most readers find climbing and drug use an ironic combination. Society may see drug use as the evil that it certainly can be, but I have always been responsible with it's use and have no qualms about telling the truth. I said that on that climb I tried the coke as well, freely admitted that I used it on my one-day ascent of half dome and quite possibly, may be pulling on the meth pipe as we speak. Although in my advanced age of 45, drugs have too much of a deliterious effect on me. The early morning posts can be explained by my sleep is not as sound as it used to be and I find myself awake, surfing the internet, spouting in threads like this, and downloading internet porn (another of societies 'evils') at the wee hours of the morning. And in my defense (as long as we are keeping score and NOT forgiving), may I ask how a poor climbing bum could possibly afford the designer drug of the rich and famous? As I remeber, I was at your house when Mr. P gave you the coke he scored from Robbie Dupree. Heck, he could have given it to me. Why keep score? Who cares?
If I was in Ron's shoes I would take the same attitude he's always had. "If they don't like it, F--k, 'em!" Because those idiosyncracies, those measures of civiality and proper behavior, are always subject to interpretation and have such a wide range of latitude you cannot use them as a measurement of what constitutes a bad or good person. And in today's lock-down, tow the line world of hypocracy (Thou shall not Kill, Mr. Bush?), we all could come under scrutiny for the littlest infraction. Ron is not a bad person.
As far as Mr. Jones, I know he speaks the truth. He never has done drugs and I'm sure his memory is better than Ron's or I. For myself, I have already stated that I may have embellished details of a story or filled in blanks in my memory with fiction that resembles the true events. Yes I would take the polygraph, only under the condition that I wouldn't have to pay the fee if I didn't pass. You see, The Busman is broke as usual and my failing memory from all that drug use makes it a crap shoot. Sure Ron, just to prove your point, bring on the lie detector...and then we can sling some more mud back and forth.
Is that what we really want to do?
Well, we can keep score until hell freezes over. But I think we should move in a more virtuous direction. We all need to accept of our past, accept our mistakes and accept that each of us are on different paths, accept that we are always growing. Move on.
It is called Forgiveness.
But for the gods' sake, we all need to cling to those characteristics that make us unique as individuals. Even if it means not conforming to some moral standard. Just don't hurt anyone in the process. Ron is harmless. He has never intentionally hurt anyone. I kept climbing with him for the entertainment value; if I couldn't stand the heat, I would have gotten out of the kitchen.
But this thread has dissolved into two guys deliberately trying to hurt each other... Hold it, did I conveniently leave myself out of that last statement? Yes, yes, I did! That must be because I have assauged my guilt with the knowledge that I was only repeating the facts.
But the truth hurts.
Ron, I am sorry if you were hurt by anything I said in these posts and I forgive the problems of the past. I hope you can do the same for me... and Dave...and John....and Brian...and...I hope you guys can forgive Ron as well.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 10:35 PM
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Well well. Now two former critics have submitted perfectly acceptable peace offerings.
My compliments to lambone AND alpinestylist.
What do you say? Lets try for three.
Hey Flamer,
Does Jones' story add up?
Or do even you, who happened also to be the first to accuse me based on rumors about those rocks, think that I'm a skinflint or instead rather likely to be the first person to reach for the check?
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epic_ed
Feb 14, 2005, 10:45 PM
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First of all, I'm blown away by the direction this thread has developed. I can't express my gratitude enough for some of the stories and history you guys have been sharing about Zion. It's priceless.
Secondly, it's clear that you guys (Ron & Dave in particular) have a lot of unresolved animosity toward each other and I'm sure you both feel justified in maintaining your individual perspectives.
I've met Ron. He invited me up for a weekend last fall, and although the weather didn't cooperate to let us get any climbing in he was a gracious and generous host. Ron -- bro -- you can talk a blue streak about all matters climbing, political, and otherwise, but it doesn't make you a bad guy. I can see how your brand of interaction might not be for everyone, but you've proven to be far from a lecherous villian. I'm looking forward to hang out again some time.
But there are some questions that both of you guys seem to be dodging and I'd like to see some of them answered directly. Ron -- I'd like to know the story behind "crime against nature." Set the record straight. Youthful indiscretion? Drunken rage? Failed relationship? A statement you were trying to make? Or has the story just been exaggerated and there's much less to it than Dave is making?
Another legit question (and I've asked you this before privately) -- WHY drilled angels? Why, in your opinion are they/were they the best way to join blank features of routes?
And Dave, what's wrong with creating a route where you may have to grid bolt some blank sections in order to achive a completed route? I'm not trying to start the bolting debate all over, but if it weren't for this type of tactic, very few routes would have been completed. Hell, "the Nose" wouldn't even exist if not for the final bolt ladder. What's your beef with Ron for having a different vision of how some lines should go?
Dave, I very much like the stories. I know that finding a compatible wall partner is harder than finding a good marrige. Wall climbing brings out the best and absolute worst in people -- it's an intense emotional, mental, and physical experience. But if I were you, I'd be asking Ron for what specific questions doesn't he want you to answer in order to get that $10,000. What do you have to lose? Ron feels like you're defaming his reputation. You've indicated you're tired of Ron talking trash about you for the last two decades. As a reader, I have no idea what is fact, what is "prevarication", and what is outright slander. Why not take him up on his offer?
Could it be that you are just a couple of ol codgers (who could still kick my ass) who simply didn't get along? Maybe there's really no more to it than that.
Ed
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 11:03 PM
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Poorly timed.
I posted without seeing Mike's.
That's one acceptance out of four.
To the other three, step up to the plate. (and cover your friend while you're at it.)
Mike, read the motto again. BS is BS. Half truths are half truths. And not telling the whole truth is...etc.
Good try though. Better than the others.
To the rest of you.
Mike dropped the first rack over 100' and Pey, the Pete Schoening of rack catchers, hooked it with his arm.
Astounding! (and most likely quite painful.)
That year Mike made numerous trips and we put up
Babes in Thailand
Vernal Equinox
and Organasm
So much for the bonds of friendship forged in the fires of adversity.
You want to make kissy kissy Mike?
Jews don't turn the other cheek. Atonement is required. You made some astoundingly nasty lies and comments, not the least of which were the Hitler cracks.
This after how long? And now you say put it behind us?
I don't care what you smoke, I care what you DO when it affects ME.
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tenesmus
Feb 14, 2005, 11:14 PM
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In reply to: And what about "respectively", and Iron Messiah (so as not to split you of course). |
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lambone
Feb 14, 2005, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: Well well. Now two former critics have submitted perfectly acceptable peace offerings. My compliments to lambone AND alpinestylist.
I was never a real critic. I basicaly called you a loser after reading just one of your posts and not having any idea of who you were. That was my bad. Not a fair way to judge anyone...if anyone should be judged in the first place.
Wether you really are a looser or not is not really for me to say, but regardles I think it's cool that you have contributed to this forum.
cheers
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 11:37 PM
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Again cross posted!
Ed,
thank you kindly.
In addition to my version in this little Rashoman (and boy will THAT have the reader saying,"Ah sooo, now it fits.") I will discuss in full
Climb Against Nature
(Gee you don't suppose he got more than the name wrong also??)
But FIRST!
I think for the most part I tried to stay up on the filthy curb and out of the gutter. Yeah there was the shot about HIS lost partners but I could have named many more (oops). The timing of this concerted smear is what's most suspicious. Why now?
So many lies have been posted that it is easier to enumerate what truth is contained. If they refuse to stand behind their words (and they can't) it still does not cure the ill created.
For too long I laughed it off and didn't care about the BS rumors but the myth achieved critical mass and began working as a self fulfilling prophesy.
Enough.
Supposedly this dust up began by my calling into question an apparent claim in a history. I said it was false and despite pages of rants there has been no evidence submitted to support said claim.
I await acceptance of the remaing three or an acceptable apology from all four. Until then.... still running hot.
Doesn't anyone want to see me lose?
Its TEN GRAND to the Access Fund. Or whatever...
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jmlangford
Feb 14, 2005, 11:42 PM
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C'mon guys, step up to the plate...
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dangle
Feb 14, 2005, 11:57 PM
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Thank you kindly again Mr. Langford.
Tenesmus,
my apologies over the Tennis Mouse comment.
As a river runner I wonder if you knew my friend Joy Ungritch? The "Lynn Hill of river running" she was a pretty damn good climber too and made an attempt on Timbertop with me in '85.
I emailed Deuce some questions about his description of Iron Messiah and await his response on this thread.
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dmckj
Feb 15, 2005, 12:43 AM
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Wow! (again!)
Most excellent!
Question: Do the web site guys have to run coolant through certain threads, or do they just sieze up from time to time when they overheat?
BTW, correction to the statement I never did drugs. Between 15 and 18 I did enough of, literally, anything you could put in a pipe that I was cured forever of wanting more. Speaking of drugs, coffee, wine, beer are my favorites, and in that order.
Forgiveness....I am ALL for it. This web thread is my FIRST forum (as I said, go look up all of my supposed 'histories'.....good luck cause there ain't any) and I was only driven to enter the ring because of 15 years of a guy badmouthing me to anyone and everyone who would listen. Ironically, just today a friend of mine said 'you know, you used to point out Ron's good side to me'. Funny, huh? And even Devo does, but it only gets him attacked.
I even made the offer at the beginning of this thread to 'forgive' Dangle for nothing more than an apology and the court costs (just wait till you hear the rest of the story). Could have even been done off-web. Would have spared him the embarassment...but no.
How ironic that Dangle now argues for attonement from Devo. Over what? I thought he was dead-on, and more than fair, in his characterizations. Calling him a 'little Hitler' as Devo did has nothing to do with anti-semitism and everything to do with his attitude. I mean, my god, take a look at the R+I article and chose from the following...
Dangle is:
1) an oppressed man of jewish descent
2) a normal climber
3) a skin-head or survivalist
Seeing the pictures and knowing nothing else one would have to conclude #3. The guy who Dangle constantly lambasts for being anti-semitic told me his version of the story, and, no surprise, it doesn't jive with Dangle's.
And yet Dangle has convinced well-meaning thread readers to jump into his defense against this supposed anti-semite. The other side of the story is that this guys kids were mocking Dangle because HE LOOKED AND ACTED LIKE A SKINHEAD! (Again, could you look at the R+I photos and conclude otherwise?) The Nazi stuff reportedly went up because of that. The dad of these kids got so fed up with Dangle's subsequent virulent campaign against him that he told him off in public one day (sound familiar....just like my installments) and since then this guy has been subjected to smear and defamation and boycott campaigns by Dangle. Apparently, the reps for the companies whose gear this guy sells got strong-armed phone calls from Dangle THREATENING them with boycott and/or FBI intervention actions if they didn't stop selling to the guy. In short, Dangle was, and is, continuing to try and smear and ruin this guy. Just read this thread to see how he characterizes the man.
Well....surprise, surprise....the subject of Dangle's venom is a great guy.
Now, don't get me wrong on this. I am a fervent believer that ethnic or religious opression of any kind is odious. Heck, I lecture my wife and step-daugher about how important it is to watch and fully grasp movies like Schindler's List. But, if you re-read this thread, Dangle has tried to drag me into some sort of anti-semitic alliance. Talk about hyperbole!
Finally, the vast majority of folks reading this thinks that 'the truth' lies somewhere between Dangle and others who comment. Guess again...
'Crimes Against Nature' went up a stunningly beautiful blank wall with no climbable natural features. NONE. In the Temple of Sinawava for god's sake!! Go look at it yourselves. An atrocity that had NOTHING to do with 'youthful indiscretion'. Dangle said he'd be 'happy to comment about it'. Great....do so.
Dangle took me to court for a less $5 phone call which I didn't even owe him money for. He placed himself in front of a judge and said 'I thought it was a call from Warren Harding, a man I greatly admire'. Never mind we went skiing the day after the alleged crime I commited. He took me to court just to mess with me because I told him to f%&k off, something he more than richly deserved. But, as I pointed out much earlier in this thread, it goes much deeper than this.
There are no middle-of-the-road interpretations on these issues. If anything, folks are scared enough of Dangle (several guys who have posted have been very leery of speaking up) that they guard what they say.
Pretty silly.
So Dangle gets what he deserves...an airing of his past. He wants atonement? Consider my role as the Ghost of Christmas Past from Dicken's 'A Christmas Carol', reviewing transgressions from times passed and hoping he has a change of heart. Time for a little atonement yourself Dangle.
Or if he's not going to atone, at least shut up and keep to yourself.
Yeah, Joe Pesci is perfect for the roll.
.....The falling of light dust presaged the end of the finger-of-fate's fascination with its own nose, and the beginning of the end of our tale......
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 1:28 AM
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(lambone! Should be funnybone! "I'm not a critic I just thought you were a loser." nice to see SOMEONE coming around)
I can say with certainty that Dean Woods knew very well of my heritage BEFORE his kids put up the sign.
The reason is I CLEARLY TOLD HIM.
I don't know if the FBI has done any intervention but I do know that an agent has taken an interest in a pattern of hate crimes locally. There is also a $2000.00 reward offered by the insurance company.
He may not be a closet racist but Dean refused to apologize and said it was his "first constitutional right" (I assume he meant first ammendment right but those were his exact words. Besides the first ammendment doesn't give one the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.)
Let him say otherwise on the box!
C'mon guys step up to the plate.
If all three remaining accept (and accept to pick up Mike's slack) before midnight (MT) tomorrow I'll make it a twelve-thousand charity check.
If you are telling the truth what have you got to lose.
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 1:37 AM
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punctuation correction; above should have ended with ?
Hey! What happened to Danny DeVito? He was all excited! He started losing weight for the role. Said next time I stayed in Bel Aire I could touch his Oscar. Did DROP DEAD cut a side deal??
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deuce4
Feb 15, 2005, 1:38 AM
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Ron writes to me:
In reply to: The phrase might have read; in late '70s and early '80s respectively not to mention 4 words on Fischer; pushed standards of boldness Iron Messiah partner? origin of "bolt ladder" claim? While we're at it (not to offend but debate) Touchstone grade III and Prodigal IV+ ???
Still not sure what the first question is about--the history article? I'm sure it could use revisions, no qualms there, as stated before.
Iron Messiah: When I climbed the route with Darren Cope, who told me he had been on the first free ascent via the 5.10b variation (and called it "Aluminum Siding" a material he had been working with at the time), I did indeed see a bolt ladder that went up from a ledge and then pendulemmed back into the main corner crack system. It avoided the 5.10b pitch, which I remember was a little, not much, run out (crux with the pro a few feet beneath the feet). I seem to recall at least 10 bolts, maybe more, but we didn't go that way, so I never saw them up close. But I definitely saw a bolt ladder. Are the bolts no longer there?
I only did the Iron Messiah route once, spectacular! One of the best Zion free routes in my experience, nice view up there and a fun hike to the one of the highpoints of the Spearhead. Highly recommended. Make sure to scope out the line before attempting to wander up and just find the base--it is a bit hidden and tough to locate without larger scale reference points as you thrash around the approach.
Grades: well, I climbed Touchstone several times in less than a few hours, so called it a Grade III, whereas Prodigal took more time. The first time I did it, it took more, probably most of the day, but I remember doing it once in about 4 hours. OK, I am sure those grades were a bit of ego talking back then in my youth...
Cheers
JM
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 1:57 AM
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OK now the D man is pissed.
He's talking to the assistant producer. Thinks someone else is running with the story so we're going to fast track. I still get to do the stunt work for my character though. (Yeah. Like he's going to solo anything.)
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tenesmus
Feb 15, 2005, 2:12 AM
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Thanks deuce. Have you ever done anything down on the incisor by lee's ferry? I always scoped it out from the Marble Canyon Lodge after the rig, but never had the time to make it back... Is the rock as soft as I'd always imagined it?
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 2:26 AM
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Iron Messiah
There are TWO Cope Variants to the third pitch.
The original line is to the left of both and, with the ill advised left variant ens at a 15-20m 5.7A0 traverse PROTECTED by four perhaps five bolts.
The pendulum is properly done from a cam. Idiots however will see the slings the seconds leave on the last bolt and screw themselves.
When I did the FA I used a prototype soloist with the instructions written on the side in magic marker. After a few pitches the markings smudged with sweat. Now I believe that I ended up doing several pitches WITHOUT an actual belay but WITH rope drag!
Anyway when I returned the borrowed soloist I told its owner about the route and that I hadn't used any bolts for aid.
The strange thing is the owner was .....Deuce himself!
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 2:31 AM
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One other thing about Iron Messiah.
Before Darren cleaned out the free variant on rappel I had already done much of it but was disappointed to find wide cracks.
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 2:39 AM
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Oh yeah and the name;
Steve told me someone said it was me saying I was the Messiah.
Too much! Actually it DID have a double meaning. It was my first solo HAFWeN FA.
(You see the iron was nailed into place. OK I wasn't sensitized yet but I didn't put it outside a Christian's house.)
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flamer
Feb 15, 2005, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: Hey Flamer, Does Jones' story add up? Or do even you, who happened also to be the first to accuse me based on rumors about those rocks, think that I'm a skinflint or instead rather likely to be the first person to reach for the check?
Ron,
First of all Mr. Jone's story is just that-his, I know nothing more than what has been written here.....and that include's knowing Mr. Jones himself- I don't.
I've told you before I have tremendous respect for you, and in fact consider you a friend, not a "good" one as we have only met on 2 occasion's....but someone I'd happily drink a beer and share a conversation with(again).
And as I PMed you I'll be in the area this spring if you'd like to have dinner or a drink or a climb...I'll pay this time.
However. I'm also a strong willed person. I do not plan to kiss your ass, or agree with you on everything. I'm inclined to think that you would appreciate that if nothing else.
As for calling you out on drilling pockets....I've heard from more than one person(and a couple of them are VERY good friends and people I trust) about your manufactured routes....I'd LOVE to hear your side of the story should you care to share it....at which point I'll have heard several side's and can form an educated opinion.
So if you'd like to count this as an apology, great!!
At the very least I see it as an invitation to clear the " drilled pocket" air.
josh
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jgill
Feb 15, 2005, 4:06 AM
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Don't want to interrupt the flow you guys have got going, but just thought I'd mention that in May of 1962 I camped a few days down by the Virgin River, did some bouldering, and soloed a 50' crack somewhere above. But mostly I hiked and scrambled and stared in awe at the huge walls. 8^)
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 4:31 AM
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Josh not to cut you short but,
Mr. Gill I am most honored. Any observations from you regarding our little playground are always welcome from my corner.
I'm curious first off about a "local" issue. The rock is so soft that routes wear down. Any feelings on the subject?
Back to Josh, only asked if you figured I was miserly. Probably confused it by mentioning rocks. Sorry.
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jgill
Feb 15, 2005, 4:51 AM
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I think I might have been more aware of the soft rock issue, Ron, had there been any other climbers around. Actually, there were very few people around when I was there. I didn't see any evidence of previous bouldering, so didn't think about it. I suspect that you might contact some climbers who've had experience at Elbsandstein, near Dresden, for their opinions. Fehrmann, Perry-Smith and others were quite cognizant of just that problem around 1902 or thereabouts. Actually Perry-Smith wore nailed boots on his first visit there, but quickly changed to more appropriate footwear. 8^)
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dmckj
Feb 15, 2005, 5:00 AM
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A port in any storm, eh Dangle?
I thought Josh asked you a fairly direct question about your drilled routes which you told an earlier thread reader you'd be 'happy' to talk about.
Let's see some of that happiness.
Maybe this would be a good time for Devo to fess up on the nature of the Snow Canyon routes as well?
Would Devo care to clean the slate and talk about those custom drain-holes?
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dmckj
Feb 15, 2005, 5:29 AM
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No small irony here......
Mr. Gill (no unnecessary means......)
I present to you...
Mr. Olevsky (any means necessary......)
Just like a MasterCard......PRICELESS!!!
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rocknroll
Feb 15, 2005, 6:01 AM
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Dave
I don't think you understood the spirit of my peace offering since you are continuing with the mockery. If you choose to take the low road I suggest you even the score once and for all and take up Ron's offer to do the lie detector. The access fund could use that money. We may have save Snow Canyon after Ron drills a few more holds on blank faces.
I had a great time with Ron putting up Babes in Thailand in Snow Canyon. I remember one lead where I could almost be accused of chipping holds. I was run out on low angle white rock quivering like Joesph Smith when that salamander started talking to him. I grabbed a baby angle and started pounding it directly into the rock - no drill hole first, just give me something! I pounded the rock so hard that I made myself a nice little foothold that I could stand on and drill the next bolt.
Ron showed me the drilled pockets in Snow Canyon in the early nineties. This was at the time when the euro-tactics had turned us traditionalists upside down. I had already come out of the closet. I was rap bolting, grid bolting, bolting fre climbing bolt ladders. The Cheese Stands Alone on the north face of Central rock in Snow Canyon is an example of that debautchery. So I was converted, but I drew the line at the manufactured holds thing. I could understand epoxying on a loose flake that was already there, but lowering the climb to your ability was not only cheating, but self-serving. If you wanted to create a completely artificial masterpiece do it in the gym. And at that point in time, the climbing community had pretty much decided that manufactured climbs were to stay over in Europe and would not be tolerated here. And in wonderful Ron style, he had to buck the norm. And tell everyone about it. But I was glad that those holds were there when I did the routes! And actually the drain hole in the bottom of the pocket is pretty ingenious. I would say it would be good for any natural hold that has a tendency to fill with sand. Sounds hypocritical, huh? Well, I think chopping bolts or erasing a manufactured route is just as bad. I always say take the high road, which should be the path taken in that situation and the current thread The high road. Diplomacy. Understanding. Forgiveness.
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flamer
Feb 15, 2005, 6:02 AM
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In reply to: Back to Josh, only asked if you figured I was miserly. Probably confused it by mentioning rocks. Sorry.
Fair enough.
For the record!!! I absolutely DO NOT consider you, Ron, to be miserly.
In fact, for everyone else, Ron bought myself and another friend of mine dinner and beers at the Bit and spur. This after only just meeting the 2 of us and knowing full well that we were on the dirt bag budget. We had a great conversation, a good dinner, and I left happy to have a new friend(and reunite with an old one...Scott Morley you around??)
Ron I would very much like to repay your generousity(SP?) sometime....
josh
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 6:03 AM
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My apologies for the undignified atmosphere sir.
What I'm trying to get at actually gets to the heart of the hold manufacturing issue (or at least one of them). Jeff and I do NOT agree on everything but one thing we DO agree on is that the softer rock will act like a canary in the coal mine to show us what happens as we use the rocks more and more. Wear is cumulative and doesn't heal. That's why we made the video together, to start a dialog on how to mitigate it.
So here are a few questions: How much harder does a route have to become before some kind of intervention becomes desirable on the part of a significant portion of the user population? What percentage should that be? What is an acceptable means to address that? How does a group of (believe it or not) independently minded recreationalists (artists perhaps?) reach some consensus?
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 6:09 AM
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Cross posted AGAIN!
I gotta stop typing with just the one finger.
Mike, Josh, thanks.
Mike, we still have issues.
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dmckj
Feb 15, 2005, 6:23 AM
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Devo,
Sorry buddy....but you lost me on that one.
For the last two decades I have kept my mouth COMPLETELY shut while Dangle did his thing. I challenge anyone to find anything written in any form or forum relating to climbing in Zion that I wrote. ONE item. One bit of 'history'. Dangle's fantasies to the contrary there are none.
I sat by as Dangle drilled out Snow Canyon and the Temple of Sinawava. I sat by while Archangel was mysteriously morphed into the overbolted Prodigal Son.
I took that 'high' road for all of that time. Even when I heard countless tales of my being slandered. And what for? For doing more routes than Dangle? Apparently so.
I took the high road Devo, and I was O.K. with it.
But sometime folks like Dangle just need a good shot to the stomach. Call it tough love.
Let's hear about the route in the Temple of Sinawava and Babe's in Thailand in Snow Canyon.
Bring on your honest and forthright and unafraid to confront the 'truth' attitude Dangle.
Where is it? Or are you looking for another rescue thread?
All can be forgiven of Dangle if he were to show some contrition and some humility and some reflection, but as is painfully evident he has none of that to go around.
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 6:55 AM
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Mike,
I take it back. The message was still in my outbox. I think that just maybe, hopefully on my part, you may have pulled off a save.
Dave,
I don't want to sound like a broken record (remember that old phrase? broken ipod??? doesn't work) but where is the slander? I said you did not put up routes in Zion in the '70s. Was I wrong?
You want answers to your urgent questions?
So do I.
I'll make it even easier. Brian is a good Mormon and doesn't exactly lie. (He just doesn't tell everything.) You , Mike and of course Dean are the only ones I've heard come up with their own "material". If Brian agrees to back his third for any of you guys he doesn't have to bother with the exam. He does get a vote on the charitable cause though.
Dave and Dean accept. I talk pockets. Drilled angles. Rashoman. My beef soup recipe. My extracurricular adventures. Favorite route names. Who knows what else.
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arsenalcrater
Feb 15, 2005, 6:57 AM
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WOW!!! This tread has gone nuts and hexes!!! I have to say that this is the best thread I have ever read on this site. I am so stoked to head back to Zion. We have three trips booked for Cataract Canyon so far this spring. Well, I know where the hell I'm going after the river trips!!!
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dmckj
Feb 15, 2005, 5:24 PM
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So... Dangle....looks as if we've done our work as far as boosting the climbing attendance in Zion, and thus increasing the $$$ to Springdale.
So do we proceed to allow this to disintegrate, or put in a temporary pause to allow a rebuilding of the gentle reader base and get those folks back in who were scared away by the heat of the moment? I say we go for the temporary pause....and then get back to brass tacks. My agent says he doesn't want me to get too typecast. Further, Devito gave me a personal ring to say that if you continue with the off-the-deep-end conspiratorial stuff he will have to bow out owing to image considerations. On the other hand Pesci assures me he can follow you into the darkest corner you go. Above all else, we have to retain the 'freshness' in our presentation, otherwise someone might pick up on the fact this is all a scam to line our pockets.
I am a little confused as to our arrangement with the Springdale chamber of commerce.....we arranged a 2% cash payment for the net gain in tourism?? Of that we split: 20% to rockclimbing.com, 10% to Ed the thread initiator, and 35% to both you and I? If the tourists mention the thread we get an immediate extra percentage point?
Remember, this has GOT to be wired directly to my Turks and Caicos account. Otherwise, I'm dead meat with the IRS bastards.
(o.k....now, let's see...how do I send this highly private and confidential message that no one else should ever to in a PM to Dangle...hmmm.....is it this button.....???? DUOH!!!....)
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 6:46 PM
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Much MUCH better.
Now Dave is catching on.
Last night WAS pretty bad. Running around like an enraged yorkshire terrier that smells another dog and accidentally pees on John Gill's socks.
But Jones has been working on his writing. First he was using new words (no surprise he found a synonym for slander) but this was his first successful foray into contrapositive satire.
Well done! My compliments (although the originality was somewhat marred by the "ring".)
There's hope for this thread yet.
Now. How about that offer? You and Dean step up? Midnight tonight and its twelve grand. (You know how it is when you rely on the truth and can't handle your money.)
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epic_ed
Feb 15, 2005, 7:05 PM
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Cool! About time I get paid for my efforts. Ten percent sounds very fair, but I want a shareholders stake at the Mean Bean.
Ed
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rocknroll
Feb 15, 2005, 7:44 PM
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Hey Wait a minute!
I thought we were all back-end participants on net profit...now I see you guys are splitting the gross which means nothing for the guy who came up with a lot of the content. What was that you said Ron, Content is King?
And you are letting everyone know about the scam before we came to the climax of the thread...will Dave Jones pass the lie detector test? I may be in it for the money, but mostly I am in it for the artistic intergrity. We must see this movie, uh, thread completed.
And by the way, I think I may have an option deal from Sundance. Bob and I had a brief chat. You know how much he loves his home state. More on that later...
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maculated
Feb 15, 2005, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: Running around like an enraged yorkshire terrier that smells another dog and accidentally pees on John Gill's socks.
Oh God. I just read 20 pages of the best stories, repartee, and flame wars on RC.com, and then you have to end it with this. Thank you.
SNORT!! :wink:
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dmckj
Feb 15, 2005, 9:48 PM
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Don't worry brave and gentle readers....we are not NEARLY done with these topics.
I only wished to provide a brief respite so you could all get yourselves some popcorn or beer or whatever....
Add some more coolant, because we've only just begun the heavy pulling....
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dmckj
Feb 15, 2005, 9:48 PM
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Don't worry brave and gentle readers....we are not NEARLY done with these topics.
I only wished to provide a brief respite so you could all get yourselves some popcorn or beer or whatever....
Add some more coolant, because we've only just begun the heavy pulling....
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dangle
Feb 15, 2005, 11:30 PM
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Mr. Jones,
your credibility is at stake. You expect these readers to believe you after the Yaniro reversal and saying kids in LaVerkin, Utah, the town that "banned" the UN, thought I "looked like a Nazi". What's next? That you actually DID put up routes earlier but you are too modest to discuss them?
Step up to the plate. Less than 8 hours for the bonus. If you are honest what do you have to lose?
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ambler
Feb 16, 2005, 12:20 AM
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In reply to: What's next? That you actually DID put up routes earlier but you are too modest to discuss them? |
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bsmoot
Feb 16, 2005, 4:22 AM
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Dangle:
That lie-detector test idea of yours is outrageous. Can’t quite decide how serious you are. Monkeyfinger Wall was MY story. The bit about Terry partaking of the “good Stuff” with you, I’d forgotten about (maybe I can ad that to the story.) I just remember Terry fiddling a lot with that 2-point hammock. Then you got up to go pee…I think you were aiming for the ranger! Then we all sacked out.
Certainly don’t want to go on holding grudges. Remember though, sorry must come from both sides. The darker sides of this thread came to light because you didn’t treat your fellow climbers well. Don’t forget, positive stuff was also said about you by all of us! In my story, 5.11 slab climbers storm Zion, you were funny as hell -- oops, I mean heck. History is a package deal, but…sorry if bummed you. In return, it would be nice if you wouldn’t threaten climbers in the same manner as you did Terry and I.
I’d certainly welcome being on a more civil level with you Ron…you still have some great climbing tales to add to this amazing thread that I’d love to hear. It would also be cool if you could move beyond the Dean Woods thorn. Although I haven’t heard your side of the story, I’ve always wondered: If you’re a secular Jew, why is it bothering you so much? Your negative feelings of anger & revenge are like the Stone of Sisyphus…a heavy burden for you to bear.
Being Mormon, I’ve been harassed & teased a bit, since climbers aren’t the most religious creatures. In this thread I’ve heard one-sided comments about Joseph Smith & John D. Lee, but they don’t bother me cause I’ve dealt with this my whole life… kind of got a thick skin now. You guys DO have mutual friends. We all have a lot more in common than you might think. Zion climbers are masochists…they don’t mind climbing that damn, oops I mean dang sandstone, groveling up new routes, getting cactus in our butts and dealing with the occasional loose, shitty, oops I mean crappy rock, the heat and…oh, gotta go – my Bishops on the phone.
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no_one
Feb 16, 2005, 4:41 AM
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Bsmoot
since everyone is pointing out eachothers sins, I thought i'd call you to repentance. Your thread should have said......
[getting cactus in our butts, oops, I mean bums]
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no_one
Feb 16, 2005, 4:42 AM
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Bsmoot
since everyone is pointing out eachothers sins, I thought i'd call you to repentance. Your thread should have said......
[getting cactus in our butts, oops, I mean bums]
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no_one
Feb 16, 2005, 4:43 AM
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Bsmoot
since everyone is pointing out eachothers sins, I thought i'd call you to repentance. Your thread should have said......
[getting cactus in our butts, oops, I mean bums]
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no_one
Feb 16, 2005, 4:44 AM
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what the hell, oops, heck happened there!
Sorry!
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bsmoot
Feb 16, 2005, 5:02 AM
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Ahh, a possible convert!
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bsmoot
Feb 16, 2005, 5:02 AM
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Ahh, a possible convert!
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dangle
Feb 16, 2005, 7:02 AM
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Midnight.
Bonus expired.
Original offer still active.
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dangle
Feb 16, 2005, 7:41 AM
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Went back to the first page to check ambler.
While I questioned Jones' candor on dates this hardly constitutes the campaign of slander that he repeatedly alludes to. The mean spirited fables developed by the DDs can hardly be justified as "equal" payback. That they haven't agreed to examine their honesty betrays their lack of it.
Perhaps those that have encouraged I put this behind me would care to shoulder the expense of the vandalism and other costs that have been generated by the mythology that a few find so entertaining to create.
If not then be kind enough not to lecture.
I hope anyone that didn't participate isn't forced to undergo similar targeting. Those that did certainly haven't.
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dangle
Feb 16, 2005, 9:15 PM
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Of all the ironies. "Brad Pitt" sandbagged by the D man, whose production team now has the rights to a treatment that is beyond deep, as well as four working titles:
Rampage In Zion
Blood Red Rock
Climb To The Death
The Silence Of The Cams
stay tuned for: Iron Messiah, the FA of the Spearhead
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dmckj
Feb 17, 2005, 2:00 AM
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Hi folks....
Sorry, but I've got a huge workload this week and so will have to leave you all 'dangling' for awhile (ooohhh that was bad). Promise to return with, I hope, more fun and instructive histories and stories.
This thread got ignited owing to Dangle's claims (for 15 years now) of my intentionally, knowingly, and conspiratorially trying to write or support a false Zion history. Of course, as I've already stated, the ONLY Zion history I ever participated has the RIGHT dates for everything (remember Ron was wrong twice already early in this thread?), and all the other histories were written with no more than copies of my original topos as input. I no more corrected bad dates published beyond my control than I tried to correct Ron's TRULY willful lies about things such as Spaceshot. Just didn't mean much to mean in my otherwise busy life. Apparently it means a lot to Ron. My alleged co-conspirator in Ron's delusional obsession (re-read the part about my nefarious Dartmouth connection), Mr. Middendorf, basically wrote in and said his history could have been refined but wasn't either willfully wrong or malicious. So, exactly WHERE is ANY evidence whatsoever to support ANY of Dangle's claims. A shred??? Anything?? Where?? When?
Dictionary definition....
Slander: A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
Let's see, without any supporting evidence, documents, etc, etc ..the oral and written campaign Ron has conducted against me IS both false AND malicious. Pretty hard to escape that simple fact.
The many stories Brian, Devo, and I have submitted in this thread are all true (beyond the artistic embellishments), and Dangle's rants about absurd lie detector tests is simply a clever means of changing the subject and avoiding dealing with the reality of everyone's stories about him -- period. What lies? Dangle sued me in court....would any gentle reader be so BOLD enough as to simply confront him as to WHY, and why so if I took him skiing the day following the 'crime'? Dangle put up the obscene pocket drilled route in Temple of Sinawava, not mention the travesties in Snow Canyon. Would anyone else be so bold as to ask him 'what the heck were you thinking and how can you be so hipocritical to 'worry' about conserving Zion routes while you were drilling them out of pristine rock?' Dangle alienated, in a row, Smoot, Josh Lieberman, Steve Chardon, myself, Devo and Mark Pey. That is batting 100% of the climbers I've ever seen him with, except maybe the wall guys from Tucson. Where's the 'lie' in that? Ain't none.
The lie detector matter is just a ploy to avoid acknowledging and dealing with all of this. Again....sad.
Finally, it would be interesting to look at all of the comments from his detractors and see how many positive ones there are. Even I have repeatedly given him credit for certain things...go reread. I said he picked out great lines, had good wisdom about what part of the rock to climb, showed us the Shune's line, picked out and climbed Spaceshot with me, put in a good effort on the bolted chimney on Lovelace, came up with the name Forbidden Wall. If we switched rolls, do you think Dangle would have ONE good word for me (HAH!!!!!)
Now, I challenge anyone to find a single solitary good word of recognition of MY climbing history in Zion (aside from the Wheatberry article he wrote long ago while we were still friends). Maybe there is, but, hey, I'd like to see it. Instead, he lied about Spaceshot in two published articles (or maybe more?) and he admitted to it in this thread. He also admitted here is was to get even with me. Over what???? That I do more routes than he does?, that I kept them mostly to myself?, that I criticize him for dumbing down routes?. THAT, gentle reader, is really what this is all about.
I've never lied about Dangle. Never have, never will. Just diminishes a person's integrity.
See you in a week.
best
D
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dmckj
Feb 17, 2005, 2:01 AM
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Oh yeah....and I forgot to mention, most of his route names are pretty darned good....even 'Climb Against Nature'
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dmckj
Feb 17, 2005, 2:14 AM
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Ambler...just now read your thread from above.
YOU ARE THE MAN!
That is EXACTLY right!
This is not, and never has been, about route dates.
I owe you a pitcher of 3.2 beer in the Bit and Spur in Zion for so clearly stating what I had HOPED thread readers would see as obvious.
cheers
D
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dangle
Feb 17, 2005, 2:15 AM
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This is the story of the seige that became a free climb, almost entirely even by me!
First off, the map error (?).
I suspect that the original "spearhead" was just the small formation at the base. Anyway the USGS Zion Park map assigns the Spearhead to another flying rampart similar in size but not isolation to Angel's Landing. Now just as the windbreaker looks nothing like a musical instrument, the Spearhead appears hardly that and actually looks more like a rattan chair.
The left side of the ESE face has some nice looking rock and in early '88 a friend and I started working on a line left of the eventual IM start. Leaving some rope I returned later and worked out a series of sinuous face moves on the current line that with the right sequence I thought only 5.9 . I then installed a rather sparse 5 pro bolts (I was still in my early thirties).
Four years later I was to submit a great photo of Catherine Destivelle on this pitch only to have the overassuming british editor reject it because of the bolts. He figured any dihedral has a crack.
Wrong.
Anyway much of the first half of the route required cleaning but yielded great free climbing with the exception of the pendulum from what I think was a one-and-half friend (like the DDs?)
Speaking of DDs, now we come to D-Day, April 9, 1988. The planets were all in alignment, the vibes were right, the 120m of rope strategically fixed, my income tax was even done.
Shoes on I started soloing the "approach" to the dihedral at 8:15. At its base I clip one jug to the rope for a "TR" and do all the free moves without rests. Where the three variants diverge I piled the first rope and trailed it while third classing 30m of 5.7 to clip my jug to the second rope which is my pro to the chimney belay.
After OH SO CAREFULLY rigging ropes and pack to pull from above I third class to the small stance on the right wall and pull up the load, then rig a belay for the pitch to my previous high point. Still have to wonder if the prototype soloist was even threaded right. Having used but one point of aid I reached the sloping ledge at the bottom of the final dihedral before 10:00.
Now there are some people so driven to impress others that they might experience a little bit of memory loss, but I'm proud enough of what I would see as my personal best in terms of a day's performance on the rocks that the truth satisfies me enough (ahem, clearing throat). With the dubious self belay I managed to get up this magnificent 55m corner using two aid points.
I knew it would go free. I just wasn't about to dog it out and then lie by not telling the whole truth. Same for the next short pitch to the tree. Most people then do the cracks to the top. Not bothering with a belay I went up the slab to the left which turned out to be easy but spooky on friable holds.
On my topo I wrote 5.4X . Not having heard of such a thing people have said to me,"I couldn't see the one bolt." Cracks me up every time.
The summit was a very personal experience. An enormous natural high only to be contrasted five months later with a fractured spine.
The descent was a 'witch' after I dropped my eight. (Always bring a few ovals. Always bring a few ovals. Always...) Then there was the swinging out away from the dihedral for the rapping lineup to avoid getting my ropes caught in the corner. (A number of people are going, "Oooooh now I get it.")
Done. In the bag. A good route. A cool summit. My first long solo FA with all the iron in situ.
Iron Messiah
Now where was that windbreaker....
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dangle
Feb 17, 2005, 2:27 AM
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Too busy writing. Cross posted again.
If Dave wasn't lying why doesn't he want $1000 ? Has he done anything he doesn't want to cop to??
The readers don't have to confront me for "why". If they get YOU to accept the challenge I'll tell what you have obviously conveniently forgotten.
Gee could there be another version?
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rockprodigy
Feb 17, 2005, 4:02 AM
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Great story Dangle. Zion climbing is unique in that many of the walls, and especially the free routes, require some amount of face climbing, whereas routes in Yosemite, of other desert routes are frequently pure crack climbing. I think that 5.9 pitch is one of the coolest in Zion. I was really psyched when I first saw it and really enjoyed it. It must have been a bit of a psychological leap for the time period to push a route up a face that was devoid of any cracks...I guess that was common on aid routes, but not free routes.
I regret that I didn't hike to the summit...I need to go back.
I prefer stories to infinite circular arguments.
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dangle
Feb 17, 2005, 4:17 AM
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Even infinite circular arguments are better than the redundant parrot act.
I assure you. There is more than meets the eye.
There are questions someone doesn't want to answer.
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rocknroll
Feb 17, 2005, 4:33 AM
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rockprodigy wrote:
In reply to: I prefer stories to infinite circular arguments.
Here! Here! This tit-for-tat thing is making me a bit dizzy. Yes Dave, I think you have finally come to a good conclusion in your war of words with Ron. Now take that lie detector test! The climbing community could use that money!
And Ron, excellent story. Makes me want to go rope solo something (Let's see, the last time was 2 years ago on the Petit Grepon and I almost got struck by lightning - that would have been my fourth strike). I think I have run out of stories, except for that climb we attempted at the Maiden Pools (is that the name?). Remember, the hurricane came in and we watched the flash flood come over the rim. Do you want to tell it or should I? Did you ever finish that climb? Or Appaloosa Rising, as we were going to call the climb from whence you threw the boulder?
And let's all leave the slander behind.
________________________________________
"The facts, ma'am, just the facts."
---Sgt Friday, Dragnet
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dangle
Feb 17, 2005, 6:15 AM
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Mike,
I talk history not slander (well OK there were a few names) but interesting that the two with the most to answer for won't answer.
Its EMERALD Pools. No.
How about how those photos on the Organ came to be? (speaking of lightning.)
Too bad you only PMed the Hitler apology. Dave is beyond the pale.
There's a lot more to the T-bird though (and the only ones who no longer climb with me are dead. Jim says only the good die young.)
What about the summit burning in '03. (speaking of lightning again.)
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dmckj
Feb 17, 2005, 1:39 PM
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In reply to: I assure you. There is more than meets the eye. There are questions someone doesn't want to answer.
Sounds like Dangle lifted this from the screenplay of a History Channel documentary on the House Committe on Unamerican Activites. Next thing you know he'll say he will produce microfilms found from inside a pumpkin. Oliver Stone must have a hand in this.
More Big Lie stuff folks. As I said, look it up in the DSM-IV.
Fairly striking how a guy who virulently lashes out at people at the drop of a hat for being 'against' him is the first guy to whine 'victim' and, worse, wraps himself up in his religion to do so. Another convenient way to avoid looking at your own actions and taking responsibility for them. The guy who demands unnecessary apologies from everyone else (and has conned them from many folks on this very thread) is incapable of introspection or perspective. Not only are you a master at splitting Dangle, but you are the unassailable master at projecting. I bow to you.
Let's hear about the history of 'Climb Against Nature', move for move, er, uh, battery pack for battery pack. And the lawsuit......how DO you explain that? And threatening to shoot people's ropes....., etc, etc.
Gotta run.
D
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tenesmus
Feb 17, 2005, 4:24 PM
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Great story Dangle. Thanks.
Dave, Brian, John, Rockprodigy - we want to hear more from you too!!
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ambler
Feb 17, 2005, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: I owe you a pitcher of 3.2 beer in the Bit and Spur in Zion for so clearly stating what I had HOPED thread readers would see as obvious.
As for the thread's controversies ... it might not be obvious to casual readers, but I think there are only a few core claims actually being disputed here -- that is, facts claimed explictly by one party and denied explicitly by the other. Chief among these claims is what kicked the fight off: dangle's multiple statements on the first page of this thread that Jones dishonestly claimed 1970s first ascents, through
"erroneous years listed for numerous FAs provided by Jones",
and that
"his [Jones'] chronology predates his routes by a year or two, he postdated some of mine"
and furthermore, that Jones'
"false claim"
of 70s ascents was the basis for Middendorf's history. Later on the first page, dangle wrote that in an R&I interview, dangle deliberately credited Pey rather than Jones with the FA of Space Shot, in order to repay
"Jones' deliberate dishonesty with a speck of my own.
It was a private joke to further obscure the history and deny the original liar [Jones] credit."
Elsewhere on the first page, dangle said that Jones
"also wrote a telling piece of fiction called B. G. Goes to Zion.
B G stands for Blond God and while Jones claimed to have created the character from whole cloth it was a thinly veiled depiction of Fischer'
Jones did not enter the thread until midway through its second page, but then categorically denied dangle's accusations:
"Although I'm not inclined to lower myself, Mr. Olevsky's willingness to slander others in open forums deserves some sort of rebuttal because the poison of his comments should not pose as 'history'.
First, other than the 1984 article in Climbing I have never provided anything other than copies of my original topos for anyone's guide, period. I never promoted my routes. I have always simply provided topos to people who asked. All the topos I submitted were original with correct first ascent dates and personnel. No guidebook author ever ran copy by me for final proof. Any errors in their guides are the fault of the authors."
Also, Jones said that he did not base the 1983 story BG Goes to Zion on Fischer, and in fact didn't meet him until later.
In subsequent posts, dangle stuck by his accusations and Jones stuck by his defense.
A lot of other stuff has come up but more as a crossfire of new issues and stories, without such clear contradictions between claims -- court cases, threats, FA interactions, ethnic harassment, and overbolting or route manufacturing, for example. All that stuff is interesting and important as well; I (and probably other readers) would like to know more. But in this post I thought it was valuable to clarify the core argument that set the thread in motion. Have I got it right?
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dangle
Feb 17, 2005, 7:36 PM
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I went to bed early last night eased by the prospect of a week's respite and considering the further prospect of using some fresh dill with some wild salmon, trying that new Pinot Grigio, and maybe a few more books.
Didn't turn on the gadget until noon.
No such luck!!!!! Damn that was a fast week!
By now any thorough reader (if indeed there still are ANY) must be asking;
Will this pissing contest EVER end?
And why so much vinegar too?
And how could a yorkshire terrier piss so much?
Could he have been drinking too much and saving it for decades?
Well, ambling into the fray we have a diligent researcher who unlike myself has bothered to learn how to do that quote thing. So after a little lunch , a rest in the sun, taking care of some errands as well as my pets, I shall try to emulate ambler's clerical research with a concise detailed list.
Still , I couldn't help but laugh when I read that Jones' first words in this were (and noob that I am I must retype this, with one finger ofcourse),
"I'm not inclined to lower myself (to) Mr. Olevsky's willingness to slander others in open forums..."
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no_one
Feb 17, 2005, 9:24 PM
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Great story Ron! Please don't stop with that one though!
I agree this thread has been great but all the shit talk from all sides is getting old. Lets hear more stories, and please feal free to spice them up with a little artistic creativity(we all do it).
Dave, just take the test! As others have stated. The climbing community could use the money. And don't stop with your stories either!
I think if there's something we can "all" learn from this, it's... Write it down as soon as you get to a pen and paper and store it in a safe place for future referance (unless you have one of those fancy cameras like Me, that prints the date on the photo).
Thanks guys; MORE STORIES!!!
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dangle
Feb 17, 2005, 11:40 PM
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Hey Steve,
good to see you're still in the mix. What did you think of Brian's suggestion that because I don't attend regular services that I shouldn't object to swastikas outside my home, taken in light of the outburst at the game friday and the way I handled it?
To the rest,
business, then a beer, then the news, then dinner, THEN the list.
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caughtinside
Feb 17, 2005, 11:51 PM
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In reply to: Dave, just take the test! As others have stated.
Don't be ridiculous. Who settles an argument with a lie detector test? Come on.
Love the stories though.
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no_one
Feb 18, 2005, 1:21 AM
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hey, caughtinside! Sorry I can't give you any historical examples of an argument that has been settled by a lie detector test, but come on man, whats that got to do with anything. If it makes it easier for you, think of it as a FA. Dave's got plenty of classic FA's under his belt, this could be another classic that's not rated A4, that the rest of us more moderate climbers could benefit from...rated C10,000.
Ron, My appoligies for the comment made the other night. It was wrong! I've got to say, you handled it perfectly! Thanks!
Also,
Ron, I don't think anyone deserves to be the target of bigotry and hatred. And I'm sorry you were. Your a good guy who has seen and done more in his life(some good, some bad) than most can even dream of. But how many more years are you going to spend brewing your own hatred over what a couple of kids (Deans kids) did to you. It was ignorant and wrong but haven't we all done things just as stupid and thoughtless. You've got another 30 to 40 years in ya. Don't spend it fighting old battles! Spend it doing what you love, with people you like. I'm excited about the friendship we seem to be building, and look forward to learning more from you in the years to come.
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pmyche
Feb 18, 2005, 1:39 AM
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Semi-drift: I'm with caughtinside for my own reason. Anyone who thinks a polygraph is definitive is delusional. Do they use them in court? Yes. Are they 100% accurate? No way in hell. I was tested on a polygraph by one of seven people licensed to do so for judicial proceedings in AZ, and resultant, I was wrongly implicated of something (my test was not in a court situation). So was my buddy who was tested at the same time I was. We were failed b/c the tester decided we should be based on background info and bias. So please do not make me laugh by touting a polygraph test as something which unequivically upholds the truth. What an absolute crock of shit that is.
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dangle
Feb 18, 2005, 2:34 AM
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Well it looks like before I work on ambler's list I'll need to address a few things, one of which is why the list doesn't really cut to the core.
Its not difficult to see the analogy between Jones' ancient gripe and what might appear to be mine.
Apples and oranges.
I am currently dealing with campaign that is far more serious than the mere dissemination of lies and embroidered half truths, but that is how it began. It is now a litany of crimes and suspected crimes that include not only theft and felony vandalism but possible attempted murder related to tampering with a fixed rope of mine.
The father of those kids, the person who hopes to earn his income largely off of people aspiring to repeat my routes is at the core.
No more details. Thats all you get.
Mike I'm dissappointed. Sorry to hear you got screwed but still...
I never said or even expected that a polygraph was 100%.
Still I might be able to kill two birds and go get stoned.
What have they got to lose? Let them take the exam. They can show us they're as honest as Boy Scouts.
But before working on the list we need a comedy break. So I'll first work on; The story Duane Raleigh couldn't find space for.
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dangle
Feb 18, 2005, 3:35 AM
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When Duane interviewed me via my brand new toy this very computer he spent a lot of time on guns. I got the feeling that this would be one of the central thrusts of the article and so accommodated him with photos and opinions about various types of ordnance.
He wanted to know if I owned a _________ mispronouncing the name of a commonly known manufacturer of a medium grade long range rifle chambered for the magnificent .50BMG (fifty calibre Browning machine gun cartridge).
I assured him that while I had little qualms with other citizens possessing the means with which to take out lightly armored vehicles at 1,200m that my only fifty calibres were part of my pirate outfit.
Pirate outfit? Do tell.
If I absolutely must wear a costume in order to attend a party its always the reliable pirate outfit. This of course always promotes a slew of comments like,"Ron, you were supposed to wear a costume!"
My pirate outfit is, quite naturally, authentic in every regard. Chinese silk bandanna, American latigo, French dueling shirt, African diamond, Japanese walrus ivory amulet, and for weaponry a hundred year old (razor sharp) Argentine short sword made on a German Solingen blank, a Randal dirk and two fully functional .50 calibre cap and ball single shot handguns. (OK there might also be a .45 back up.)
I have a small carved wooden box in which I keep some human teeth (do NOT ask). On Halloween mornings I dab a little fresh blood on the roots of the teeth and leave it by the front door. Then before the little bastards start showing up I put on the pirate outfit.
When I answer the door in, shall we say, a dramatic fashion they freak. But then they quickly gain composure when I proffer large amounts of really good candy.
But before they leave I make all but the smallest carefully look inside the box and I tell them what will happen if they actually EAT the candy.
If their parents are there I get looks of confusement or horror and usually never see them again. If their parents AREN'T there they are usually back in under an hour.
I wonder what Dave's pirate outfit looks like. He probably has a parrot on his shoulder with the cliche sounding voice that repeats,
"crimes against nature
crimes against nature
crimes against nature"
or maybe
"15 years of slander
15 years of slander"
Lets see, the Bjarnstad book came out in '96.
So in another 6 years at least the bird will be right mathematically.
Still I have a real problem with a parrot on the shoulder of one of those poor little dogs. Somehow that's just wrong.
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bsmoot
Feb 18, 2005, 6:21 AM
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Sadly, last Year a Boy Scout died on Angel's Landing. A large number of scouts were on the top of Angel's Landing and some of the boys dared another to cross over an exposed section. As the boy climbed out over the edge, one of the other scouts said "don't get killed." Moments later, the scout slipped and fell hundreds of feet to his death. I'm not sure exactly where he fell.
What I have heard about this story from the local climbers is that when the rescue team was descending down Angel's Landing to recover the boy's body, they ran into some fixed ropes which they used to help them reach the boy. Afterwards, it was learned that it was Dangle's ropes that they had used. For reasons that Ron might want to explain, the Park Service was asked to replace his fixed ropes.
Now that you've dangled a carrot in front of our noses about this fixed rope issue, please tell your side of the story.
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dangle
Feb 18, 2005, 2:34 PM
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I've already made note of Brian Smoot's initials and in his last post there is ample support of this observation. Once again there are narrative gaps that mislead the reader.
After the boy fell a helicopter was used to shuttle a "rescue crew" to the summit and to search for the body which turned out to be on a large terrace about 80m up the SW face. A questionable decision was made to install bolts on the summit and lower the crew to the terrace. After the body was evacuated by helicopter the crew descended further to a brand new rope placed by me the day before on a new route I was working on. The standard descent route from the terrace was a rappel first used by Fred more than 35 years ago. It was evident nearby.
For reasons that the park service has been unable to explain the crew, knowing full well that the rope was mine and including Dean Woods, used the rope to descend while belaying with their own rope. They untied the rope from the numerous intermediate anchors. They did not retie the rope to the anchors. They made absolutely no effort to contact me to warn me of the alteration.
In subsequent interaction I was to find that the leader of the crew had no idea whatsoever of the reason for the intermediate anchors.
I made a surprise visit to the Superentendant of Zion and a park ranger who had been on the crew. They were either too ignorant or too cagey to admit that even USING someone else's rope without having a darn good reason was ethically highly questionable. They did however concede that the rope should have been retied and that I should have been informed.
Since the rope had been brand new and care was NOT given to mitigate abrasion in the way the rope was left (they didn't even tie down the end to keep it from blowing away) they agreed to replace the rope. It took a month but when they did so the leader incorrectly tied the new rope in. Then ignoring my specific recommendation not to he did one long rappel from the terrace.
I had warned him that using three short single rope rappels was less likely to result in a stuck rope or rope caused rockfall. Both ocurred. The rock that came down was big enough to kill anyone.
A former President of the AMGA who also happened to have a Master's degree in Ethics wrote a letter to the Superentendant who didn't respond. I attempted to contact him as well but my calls were not returned.
Brian Smoot has played the role of a slippery weasel. He made a ludicrous suggestion that as a secular jew I shouldn't object to swastikas. He inferred that I had slighted the mormons in mentioning John D. Lee. He also incorrectly suggested that I had objected to the rescue crew using my rope to find what might still be a live boy scout. Already in the Monkeyfinger tale he has admitted to a critical omission yet he continues to employ this tactic.
Perhaps he or a member of the crew would care to offer an explanation of these actions or why it was necessary to place three honkin' bolts where five routes end at a tree over a foot around. One of those routes being the first on the Landing, and hadn't required any bolts at all.
In either case Brian has misled the readers in yet one more important turn because my previous post that mentioned possible crimes and a fixed rope DOES NOT REFER TO THE ACTIONS OF THE CREW ON THIS BODY RECOVERY.
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bsmoot
Feb 18, 2005, 4:32 PM
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sorry, this site double posted
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bsmoot
Feb 18, 2005, 4:38 PM
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Dangle: In my last post I was simply trying to get you to tell, in your own words, what happened. I thought I was doing you a service. Instead, as usual, you get all defensive and negative on everything. You said:
In reply to: Brian Smoot has played the role of a slippery weasel. He made a ludicrous suggestion that as a secular jew I shouldn't object to swastikas. He inferred that I had slighted the mormons in mentioning John D. Lee. He also incorrectly suggested that I had objected to the rescue crew using my rope to find what might still be a live boy scout. Already in the Monkeyfinger tale he has admitted to a critical omission yet he continues to employ this tactic.
Your post is full of narrative embellishment, and you are one mislead reader!
-I never said that secular jews shouldn't object to swastikas! You are putting YOUR words in my mouth. I was simply trying to get you forgive and move on.
-Neither did I say that the boy scout might still be alive (where in the heck did that come from?) If you read the very first of the post, I stated that he had been killed.
-If you will re-read my post, I never suggested that you objected to using your ropes for the rescue, either.
-Oh, so now you say that I am dishonest because I don't recall that Terry smoked pot with you on Monkeyfinger? And you call that critical?..... LOL! Remember, I was telling MY story, not yours.
M I S L E A D I N G N A R R A T I V E G A P
Dangle, I was simply trying to make peace with you but you are so thin skinned and ultra sensitive that it seems impossible. You've been a victim of your own negativity. You've got to move on.
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dangle
Feb 19, 2005, 4:28 AM
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OK, back from socializing and biz (my broker's going to Papua New Guinea), but I'm still waiting for instructions on the quote thing to do the list.
Still, Mr. BS deserves two questions.
What was the narrow minded comment about John D. Lee?
Can you explain your comment,"they ran into some fixed ropes which they used to reach the boy." along with, "using your fixed ropes for the rescue", in light of the details provided?
Mr. BS protests the criticism of narrative gaps because its "his" story.
Is it just me or isn't "narrative gap" a euphemism for "lie of omission"?
Since Brian has read my posts carefully he has chosen to lecture me because he is prepared to shoulder his share of the costs. Is that a half or just a third Brian? After all only a week ago I dealt with an antisemitic outburst from a friend of Dean's whereas your complaints are OVER A QUARTER OF A CENTURY OLD.
Isn't it just a tad bit hypocritical for YOU to tell ME to put it behind me you sanctimonious liar.
Ah yes, Smootheimer's disorder. This particular form of dementia is characterized by vertical disorientation and mild hallucinations. The victims often imagine they're on a high ledge and able to look down on anyone they chose even if those are actually higher. The victim often also imagine that they see things where their vision is actually quite limited (see above).
Stay tuned for a description of Busheimer's as well as a new super hero, Recall Boy, whose cape predictably is brown. Brian in light of yesterday's news stories; where you a boy scout?
I can't believe I got a highly rated post that involved farting, or did nobody understand when I said,"just as the windbreaker looks nothing like a musical instrument..."
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flamer
Feb 20, 2005, 12:48 AM
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Just as I shared a story concerning Mr. Olevsky...which pointed out his kindness towards me...I would like to share a similair story concerning Mr. Smoot.
Brain put up a route on the backside of the Great white throne a couple of years ago (maybe only 1?). I Pm'd him showing interest in repeating his route.
Without hesitation he mailed(as in postal service) me a topo and supplied me with any beta I asked for.
So, without getting involved in any of the friction going on here, I'd just like to say thanks Brian... I hope to return the favor some day.
josh
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dangle
Feb 20, 2005, 1:56 AM
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so for example if I was to commit a lie of omission quoting the above I could come up with;
"I would like to share a story concerning Mr. Smoot.
Brian put up the backside of me without any friction and without hesitation with any kindness I asked for.
I'd just like to say thanks Brian....I hope to return the favor some day."
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dangle
Feb 20, 2005, 2:35 AM
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Well its Saturday night and time to go out, but there are questions yet to be answered like;
Brian, does your bishop know?
And what is Busheimer's?
And what are Recall Boy's super powers?
And is Ron Olevsky really the Terror of Zion?
Or is Dave Jones just the Terrier of Zion?
And just what "kindnesses" did Josh ask for......?
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ratagonia
Feb 20, 2005, 3:34 AM
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El Deuce said: "How about the Rockhouse in Springdale? No better climber's institution existed save possibly for Camp 4 in my climbing experience. The Rock House was built in the days of the CCC, during the time when unemployed depression workers built the great trails of Zion: Angel's Landing, the Watchman trail, Observation Point. The same incredible craftsmanship and fine stonework of these trails was used to build some unique homes in Springdale, the Rock House being one of them."
Not real pertinent to the thread, but...
The great trails in Zion (West Rim, East Rim, Gateway to the Narrows, Lady Mtn) were built in 1925. Angel's Landing 1926. Hidden Canyon 1928.
The tunnel was completed in 1930, with quite a workforce living in Pine Creek canyon for 2 years. Stone masons were employed building that beautiful bridge over Pine Creek, and building the retaining walls that have done remarkably well for 75 years. Seems like the Rock House was probably built just after that. There's also some outstanding stone houses in Rockville and Toquerville.
Enjoying the thread. I'm thinking of a book. Called "A True History of Zion Climbing" by Ron. Turn the book over, and you have a book going the other way "A True History of Zion Climbing" by DJ. Ha.
TJ (no relation)
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dangle
Feb 20, 2005, 4:20 AM
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Hey Tom,
it was good talking to you in SLC.
Well I busted out of the game first. The cards didn't like me tonight but it was nice to see Donna Carter stop by (she proposed to me 27 years ago and is still a hotty).
Perhaps TJ oversimplifies. There could be many more versions...
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epic_ed
Feb 20, 2005, 5:49 AM
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**Post removed**
(This post was edited by epic_ed on Jun 19, 2009, 4:34 AM)
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reno
Feb 20, 2005, 6:31 AM
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Based on what you've posted here, Ed, I think Brian is making a mountain out of a molehill, but I'll go read more of the thread and see if that changes anything.
But yeah... Ron did preface it by explaining "If I wanted to create a lie..."
Off to read.
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no_one
Feb 20, 2005, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: Well I busted out of the game first. The cards didn't like me tonight
That's two in a row!
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tenesmus
Feb 20, 2005, 9:00 PM
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Hey Ron, it was good to see ya lastnight. Thanks for the money!
That's two in a row!Saying this might incur the Wrath, but does this prove that Dangle isn't playing with a full deck? Just kidding man - its just a funny play on words. I wouldn't want to get challenged to a duel, or worse - a lie detector test.
Ratagonia, your info about the construction in Zion reminds me of a patient I had when I first moved back to slc. She grew up in Mt Carmel and her dad was the tram operator during the construction. They lived down in the canyon for several years. Around her 16th birthday one of the guys in Mt Carmel asked her on a date and they went on a hike. He said he wanted to climb Checkerboard Mtn and she didn't know better and said allright. She said they made it all the way up and over, but were super spooked near the top as it gets steeper. She also said doing that in heavy leather boots made it even spookier as they kept slipping on the sandy rock. Took them all night to bushwhack back around and down to their truck.
She's a great resource for little out of the way things to do in the area. Knowing people like her makes it a lot more real for me.
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dangle
Feb 20, 2005, 9:27 PM
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Tenesmus;
High Noon!
Mousetraps at two meters.
(I told Steve the deck felt a bit shy, but he said not to worry and that all the cards were "at the table".)
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no_one
Feb 21, 2005, 12:17 AM
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In reply to: (I told Steve the deck felt a bit shy, but he said not to worry and that all the cards were "at the table".)
Sssshhhh, don't tell anyone, but that's not completly true. I'd hate to get cought in the middle of this honesty debate. I mean heck! It's almost been 23 hours since that game. I can't remember everything.
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dangle
Feb 21, 2005, 12:58 AM
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Truth is, I was thinking about going all in KNOWING that my full boat of 4s over 3s wasn't enough. Just wasn't my kind of table save for Steve and Chris. I was however willing to make an exception for Mandy.
Hey, what happened to my "requote" of flamer?? Well I'll just have to polish it up. It couldn't be that the guy who just lectured me on skin thickness had a post in which he was the "butt" of the humor pulled could it?
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dangle
Feb 21, 2005, 2:13 AM
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In reply to: I'd hate to get cought in the middle of this honesty.
So for example a lie of omission would say be to quote no_one as;
"I'd hate to get a cough in the middle of dishonesty."
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dangle
Feb 21, 2005, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: Just as I shared a story...which pointed out his kindness towards me...I would like to share a similair story concerning Mr. Smoot. Brain put up a route on the backside of the Great white throne a couple of years ago (maybe only 1?). I Pm'd him showing interest in repeating his route. Without hesitation he mailed(as in postal service) me a topo and supplied me with any beta I asked for. So, without getting involved in any of the friction going on here, I'd just like to say thanks Brian... I hope to return the favor some day. josh
So in the same way that Brian leaves a few items out or reorganized I could say that flamer said;
"I would like to share a...story concerning Mr. Smoot. Without hesitation...Brian...supplied me with any..kindness...and put up..the backside of..me..without any..friction.
I'd just like to say thanks Brian...I hope to return the favor some day."
I must say, Brian really is the MAN. I can only imagine what his bivies with Dave and his dress are like. (But that alone is plenty of fun.) And just how does Brian do it without any friction?
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dangle
Feb 21, 2005, 3:17 AM
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New From LAMBDA CLIMBING VIDEOS:
Soft Rock/Hard Men
The utterly frank depiction of two devoted partners in the emotional crucible of a big desert climb that taxes their spirits leaving them clinging to each other for support in the exhaustion of their experience. Starring Mr. Smooth and that quirky cross-dresser Senor Jose'.
Now available at your local XXX outlet. $29.95
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chairmanmeow
Feb 21, 2005, 3:21 AM
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In reply to: "I would like to share a...story concerning Mr. Smoot. Without hesitation...Brian...supplied me with any..kindness...and put up..the backside of..me..without any..friction. I'd just like to say thanks Brian...I hope to return the favor some day." I must say, Brian really is the MAN. I can only imagine what his bivies with Dave and his dress are like. (But that alone is plenty of fun.) And just how does Brian do it without any friction?
Wow, Ron, that is so delightfully out of line it looks like something I would post. Now I get your previous comment asking whether his bishop knows. The real question here in Utah is, does his wife know? No, I'm just kidding. Far be it from me to assail someone for their sexualilty, albeit a biblically questionable and therefore DOWNRIGHT UNAMERICAN sexuality.
But wait, Ron, I thought you were the only crossdressing FAist in the area. Are you now saying that Dave was putting up lines in a dress too? Is this like a rite of passage? If I solo something in a skirt, will I be cool like yous guys?
Oh, and Ron, for a frictionless *ascent* just use Astroglide. (don't worry, it's not a dirty link)
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dangle
Feb 21, 2005, 3:49 AM
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Ah hah. I knew it. Mr. Meow, cat that he is, has been watching all along, but when he smells LDS blood in the water turns into a tigershark..
Certainly he recalls from a half dozen pages back;
In reply to: I am the Walrus writes.... In reply to: Were there any other gals putting up routes or of other historical note in Zion besides Stacey Allison and Amanda Tarr? Good question... The only other was myself when I dressed up in drag, which wasn't very often since Utah only serves 3.2 beer.
One need not bother with my response...
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dangle
Feb 21, 2005, 3:44 PM
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A moment of silence for Hunter Thompson.
May he yet find new ways to let us see the world.
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dangle
Feb 21, 2005, 4:06 PM
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Yesterday was tough on celebrity indeed.
Besides Sandra Dee we also lost John Raitt.
He starred in Carousel and the Pajama Game with Peter Birch, whose son Douglas and I were best friends in Hackley. Douglas and his sister Nancy who I lived with used to be in day care with Bonnie when their fathers were working.
We met several times in '73 when she was just starting out in the recording industry.
I'm still good friends with Douglas, who is now a grandfather. The last time I was in Boston we went to lunch with Brad Washburn who regaled us with wonderful stories. Its nice to have room in one's memory for lots of good things...
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ratagonia
Feb 21, 2005, 9:12 PM
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Hey, ever get up that route on TimberTop?
TJ
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dangle
Feb 21, 2005, 11:10 PM
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But of course Tom. Earl Redfern and I finished the T-bird in '86. Still that story comes after the Tale of Recall Boy and the story of Abbey Tower.
Really Tom! You don't want to get all the narratives confused do you?
I would like to point out that Brian is close to straightening out our misunderstandings and I eagerly await his post. It would be nice to concentrate on the good memories.
I would also like to point out that Dean Woods and Dave Jones could still earn the climbing community a 10K bonus. It wouldn't take much. Just telling the truth.
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dangle
Feb 22, 2005, 6:44 PM
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Its about time to address ambler's list though I doubt that resolution is likely by doing so. Still it won't be due to my unwillingness to speak directly to the issues in question.
In reply to: As for the thread's controversies ... it might not be obvious to casual readers, but I think there are only a few core claims actually being disputed here -- that is, facts claimed explictly by one party and denied explicitly by the other. Chief among these claims is what kicked the fight off: dangle's multiple statements on the first page of this thread that Jones dishonestly claimed 1970s first ascents, through "erroneous years listed for numerous FAs provided by Jones", and that "his [Jones'] chronology predates his routes by a year or two, he postdated some of mine" and furthermore, that Jones' "false claim" of 70s ascents was the basis for Middendorf's history. Later on the first page, dangle wrote that in an R&I interview, dangle deliberately credited Pey rather than Jones with the FA of Space Shot, in order to repay "Jones' deliberate dishonesty with a speck of my own.
It was a private joke to further obscure the history and deny the original liar [Jones] credit." Elsewhere on the first page, dangle said that Jones "also wrote a telling piece of fiction called B. G. Goes to Zion.
B G stands for Blond God and while Jones claimed to have created the character from whole cloth it was a thinly veiled depiction of Fischer' Jones did not enter the thread until midway through its second page, but then categorically denied dangle's accusations: " Although I'm not inclined to lower myself, Mr. Olevsky's willingness to slander others in open forums deserves some sort of rebuttal because the poison of his comments should not pose as 'history'.
First, other than the 1984 article in Climbing I have never provided anything other than copies of my original topos for anyone's guide, period. I never promoted my routes. I have always simply provided topos to people who asked. All the topos I submitted were original with correct first ascent dates and personnel. No guidebook author ever ran copy by me for final proof. Any errors in their guides are the fault of the authors." Also, Jones said that he did not base the 1983 story BG Goes to Zion on Fischer, and in fact didn't meet him until later. In subsequent posts, dangle stuck by his accusations and Jones stuck by his defense.
The first piece of evidence would be the Jones/Pey list in Climbing October,'84,pg 34. This list postdates the FA of Cerberus. It also puts forth that the FA of Spaceshot is credited to Pey and myself. The R&I rap sheet merely repeated an error by the very editor that Jones cites as a source for "15 years of slander". Jones then claims I "repeatedly" lied, and he even REPEATS the accusation.
I don't have many guidebooks in an extensive climbing library as I almost always climb my own routes, but by the time the Jones "history" made its way through various people's guides to the Bjarnstad Guide to Climbing in the National Parks Jones had done Red Arch BEFORE the actual date for the FA of Spaceshot, which likewise was predated.
Before Dave protests that this was not his doing I refer the reader to the previous example of how misleading not telling the whole truth can be. By keeping quiet he allowed undue credit to fall his way. As I stated a long ways back if he had just been more forthright "he would be greatly more admired."
Instead he claims ascents of Exedrin and Boring Crack and even (falsely) Touchstone in the seventies leaving the issue of FAs unaddressed.
Indeed Middendorf who until now refused outright to answer ANY questions regarding an ambiguous historical statement made on page 14 now says merely that it was a brief history. Is it just me or does the reticence of one bolster the story of the other?
Dave's reticence is extended to the question regarding his meeting Fischer, and a statistician would have a field day showing the odds of Jones describing in fiction a character of the same build, same hair color, same unusual disdain for camming devices, and same make, and same model, AND same year of vehicle are longer than hitting an inside straight flush.
If only we could just settle this definitively with a game of poker.
Stay tuned for the Tale of Recall Boy and the story of Abbey Tower, named in memory of Edward Abbey.
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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 2:15 AM
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The low level of the Green River wouldn't last long but in early November of '83 it caused problems as I motored upstream from my Bronco in a canoe. Like Ariadne's thread it guided me through the Labyrinth and just as I was to turn around and drift home tired of bottoming on hidden sand bars it beckoned me with one more turn.
And there it stood.
Oh I could easily use the plural as there were a cluster of Wingate spires, but there was one that was far the most desireable summit. It's slender profile ended with a summit like a cobra's head. This would be the goal of a quest that would last the better part of that decade.
Unprepared to attempt it I was even forced to float the last miles by moonlight. I returned home only to find that I had missed seeing my friend Scott while I had spent time near Moab. Instead Jones was still around.
After Mark and I put up a long route with all the needed fixed gear in place the previous month Dave had been asked to climb anywhere but there as we had left food and wanted to try the next crack over as well.
Sure enough he and Chardon had eaten the food and bagged the crack as if there was nowhere else to go. Dave had annoyed three of my partners with whom I would yet have long associations the previous two times I had climbed with him, and Mark had had problems with Dave that summer in France.
Chardon and I likewise had had problems when two years earlier he had thoughtlessly abused my prime lead rope jumping up and down on the middle mark bent over an edge rather than add a biner to a belay. He had welched on his promise to replace the rope. Now back he finally was willing to buy the rope two years late but the rope was no longer available so he offered a lesser deal.
Jones had constantly wheedled out of expenses in the past. The first time he stayed at my apartment the guy I shared it with had just been on his way on a trip and suggested Dave could use his room. Ten days later Jones protested that he hadn't been MY guest but his and then gave me $12 for driving him halfway across the state and back including 100 miles of dirt road.
I'd had it with the cheap bastard and let him know as much suggesting that Mark had told me about the epic caused when Dave didn't want to spring five francs for mass transit. I drove off while he was still spouting.
The next day I got a collect call from Warren Harding, who I had only met once. It was suspicious but I was curious.
It was Dave. He assured me that he would pay for the call and that he wanted to meet me and talk. Although I hate it he somehow talked me into going X-country skiing since he didn't want to buy a lift ticket. The plus was visiting George Hartlmaer a fellow climber.
Turns out like always Dave wanted to compete and I didn't. With lots of fresh snow to either side we plodded along on the road with 2WD cars running next to us. Finally I went into the trees but after 10 minutes Dave wanted back on the road. I headed back to his truck (the first ride he'd ever given me despite all the Spaceshot and Hole in the Rock mileage) and Dave continued on.
Back at the truck the real reason for the invite was made bare. I was informed that Mark was only a mediocre climber and I shouldn't climb with him. I was also informed that I now owed Dave travel money.
To make a pathetic story short, Dave threatened to strand me next to the road with my skis unless I abandoned my dinner and gave him fifty freakin cents!
Dave would later say that our friendship ended on a day the following spring. Shows what he knows. It must be interesting being a "super hero" with the ability to control one's own memory.
The first attempt on the cobra head in April nearly killed me. Tony Valdez and I motored up and started up the tower in good order. When I was most of the way squeezing between an 8m high pillar and a dihedral Tony said he thought that the pillar had moved a bit.
"Nonsense" I said, "This thing is too big to move."
Then I felt it move too.
Instantly instead of pulling out on it I was desperately pulling on the dihedral crack and trying to shove the pillar back!!
Somehow holding it with my knee I was able to place a piece, clip my haul rope in after passing it BEHIND the pillar, clip it to me, untie my lead line which Tony pulled clear. He could then hold me on tension and throw the end back which I loosely lasooed over the top.
Then holding my breath I slowly eased off the pillar. Appearing stationary I quickly lowered and cleared the haul line. Then with TWO FINGERS I pulled on the lasso and easily flicked it clear as about 5,000 pounds of sandstone thundered harmlessly past us
The attempt was cut short the following day with a windstorm that we watched flip our tent dumping most of our water. After nearly swamping we even halted our escape and I went to hunt for a cottontail for dinner while Tony stayed with the boat. Approaching a glen with the wind in my face I stalked around a boulder to find a young doe less than 10m in front of me. I raised my pocket .380 centered the sights perfectly. Still undetected I placed my finger on the trigger...
and said "BANG!"
The frightened deer bounded off. If I had been days without food it would have ended differently.
This post is already too long so fast forward to May,'89. Now having put up many routes together Dave Mondeau and I finally climbed the tower, my third attempt. Mondeau had the second pitch and once again to my chagrin had hammered a nut in. Even though I could see my initials stamped into the top I left the nut rather than compromise my clean or fixed ethic.
On the summit we party and shoot off my pocket pistol. A thousand feet below boaters are amazed.
Fast forward again past the second ascent by an erstwhile pioneer diappointed by our slings. At a party hundreds of miles away surrounded by strangers not known to be climbers someone mentions Edward Abbey.
Now this story might explain why I've had it with people spreading BS about me. I began to tell a true story about the SECOND ascent of Abbey Tower. How a climber found the nut with the initials RO and exclaimed "that DAMN OLEVSKY!"
Immediately one of the people present started to describe a ridiculously absurd story about how "that guy Olevsky" got kicked out of Zion...
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tenesmus
Feb 23, 2005, 2:46 AM
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I like reading climbing stories enough to read every page of this loooong thread. Ron, you are a petty man. This is what makes it easy for people to disparage you.
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ambler
Feb 23, 2005, 3:26 AM
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In reply to: Its about time to address ambler's list though I doubt that resolution is likely by doing so. Still it won't be due to my unwillingness to speak directly to the issues in question. .... The first piece of evidence would be the Jones/Pey list in Climbing October,'84,pg 34. This list postdates the FA of Cerberus. It also puts forth that the FA of Spaceshot is credited to Pey and myself.
So, what is the correct info in each case?
Cerberus -- Olevsky 1978 (EB, Touchstone Wall -- Olevsky 1977)
Empty Pages -- Pey and Jones 1982
Silmaril -- Gray and Jones 1983 (EB, ?)
Fang Wall -- Gray and Jones 1983 (EB, Lovelace)
Lost in Transit -- Chardon and Jones 1983 (EB, ?)
Wages of Sin -- Chardon and Jones 1983 (EB, ?)
Monkeyfinger -- Olevsky 1978 (EB -- Olevsky and Schelker 1978)
Catharsis -- Olevsky 1983 (EB, ?)
Space Shot -- Pey and Olevsky 1980 (EB -- Olevsky and Jones 1978)
Moonlight Buttress -- Low and Weiss 1971
Equinox -- Olevsky and Strassman 1984
For the benefit of readers whose attic does not contain Climbing back to issue #1, etc., it might be worth mentioning again that John Middendorf wrote the history notes for the Zion section of EB's guide. Middendorf's paragraph about the era in controversy is not specific about dates. It reads in full:
In reply to: In the late '70s and early '80s, Ron Olevsky and Dave Jones were responsible for a new wave of quality routes, as they developed a new clean ethic largely made possible by the advent of Friends, revolutionizing climbing smooth parallel cracks in the desert. Two separate trends that enabled many of the longer routes to be climbed clean developed: Ron Olevsky began a trend of modifying placements on routes to enable subsequent ascents to be completely cean, while Dave Jones found natural lines and pushed free climbing standards so fewer non-clean placements were necessary. Routes of this period include The Thunderbird Wall and Catharsis in Kolob and Monkey Finger Wall, Spaceshot, Touchstone Wall, Shune's Buttress and the Fang Wall in the main canyon. |
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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 3:28 AM
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Anonymously said Mr. Well.
Certainly unwarranted also. (With no otherwise redeeming value, why are you here?)
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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 3:54 AM
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Cross posted to ambler.
OK Lets ressurrect the horse. What the hey, near 19,000 views I know they're not all six people.
Touchstone Wall FA 1/17/77
Catharsis FA Mark Pey, Ron Olevsky October '83,
second ascent Steve Chardon, Dave Jones same month. Jones claimed to have nearly freed the 4 pitch dihedral (not addressing sling belays).
On page 89 of EB Catharsis is called a two pitch free route by Jones under a different name.
Page 67 of EB also lists the FA of Shune's as BEFORE Spaceshot rather than in the following year (as would be correct.)
The Middendorf history would have been more accurate to say," In the late seventies and early eighties" RESPECTIVELY.
Furthermore it could have included a few words about Fischer.
Furthermore it misrepresented CONSTRUCTIVE scarring. It was a technique that did not advocate scarring but rather advocated the MINIMIZING of scarring where necessary.
Does anyone have contrasting info from any of the other guidebooks?
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ambler
Feb 23, 2005, 3:37 PM
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After calling Jones a liar 7 different ways on the first page of this thread, accusing him of writing a chronology that predated his ascents and postdated yours ... it comes down to this?
In reply to: Touchstone Wall FA 1/17/77
In reply to: Catharsis FA Mark Pey, Ron Olevsky October '83
Otherwise, you take issue with some dates in the Bjornstad guidebook, or certain words used by Middendorf:
In reply to: The Middendorf history would have been more accurate to say," In the late seventies and early eighties" RESPECTIVELY. Furthermore it could have included a few words about Fischer.
In reply to: Furthermore it misrepresented CONSTRUCTIVE scarring. It was a technique that did not advocate scarring but rather advocated the MINIMIZING of scarring where necessary. |
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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 4:19 PM
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Sure ambler, Jones had no ill intent.
That's why he dredged up all the BS rather than answer the questions.
What does constructive scarring have to do with drilled pockets?
Or don't you know everything about that too?
Its remarkable how much authority can be assumed by one who hides behind anonymity.
You want questions answered; how about answering mine concerning the wearing down of holds before I provide you with another response? How much harder does a route have to become before some remedy becomes justifiable? Or do you just tick routes and say its the next guy's problem?
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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 4:47 PM
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ambler,
if Jones wasn't dishonest why did Mark Pey write on page 27 of that Climbing,"one irate activist, convinced that 5.11d and aid without aiders is good and A1 is evil, saw fit to edit the Park Service guide,'freeing' pitches with a stroke of his red pen."
Didn't Dave say he only "updated" one topo....?
Maybe that pitcher is just a glass...
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brianinslc
Feb 23, 2005, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: Sure ambler, Jones had no ill intent. That's why he dredged up all the BS rather than answer the questions. What does constructive scarring have to do with drilled pockets? Or don't you know everything about that too? Its remarkable how much authority can be assumed by one who hides behind anonymity.
Ambler ain't that anon. See the cover of Climbing magazine in mid of the mid 70's...(!)...
In reply to: You want questions answered; how about answering mine concerning the wearing down of holds before I provide you with another response? How much harder does a route have to become before some remedy becomes justifiable? Or do you just tick routes and say its the next guy's problem?
Whew, that's a loaded gun...
Its an interesting question, though. Maybe climbing gyms really do serve another useful function...ha ha.
So, is one solution really to grind holes in the rock (or otherwise artificially enhance features) to preserve a routes difficulty rating? Yikes...
-Brian in SLC
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slabbyd
Feb 23, 2005, 5:57 PM
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Some of my finest memories are of the times I've spent in Zion.
The night I spent crammed on a small ledge four pitches up Lunar Ectasy watching the stars and feeling companionship with other climbers headlamps.
The fear I felt approaching Moonlight Buttress in the dark not knowing if I had it in me to solo the route in a day.
A brisk autumn day sussing out the approach to Kolob Canyon.
A campfire with other travelers at Mosquito Flats.
Days spent enjoying the silent beauty of the slot canyons.
What history of climbing I've parssed is from names and dates of first ascensionists recorded in the route log and in guide books.
Both of you, Ron and Dave, have had an indelible mark on that canyon. Ron you picked out some beautiful lines and invested the time and energy so they could support the heavy traffic of people like me. Dave you established climbs that scream out ADVENTURE. While I've yet to climb them, routes like LoveLace continue to motivate me to climb better.
After having read to much of this thread, all I can say, is that it's a good thing for both of you and Zion that your routes form your legacy and not this thread. Ron your original arguements really have no basis after John chimed in and Dave, twenty pages of character debasement, whether they be true or not, reflect poorly on you as well.
If this is the history of Zion, I'm glad it is not recorded, not part of the experience. I'll return many times and be happy to hear the river, enjoy the feel of cool stone in the early morning, revel in the fear of climbing those walls. But I no longer have any desire to understand the egos and personalities of those who paved the way.
Darin - in the sunny PNW
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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 7:21 PM
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Must you always antagonize me? Have I done something to you too? My hairstyle maybe?
In reply to: Ambler ain't that anon. See the cover of Climbing magazine in mid of the mid 70's...(!)... Well THAT certainly clears up the question. So, is one solution really to grind holes in the rock (or otherwise artificially enhance features) to preserve a routes difficulty rating? Yikes... -Brian in SLC
Please note; his words NOT mine.
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dangle
Feb 23, 2005, 7:25 PM
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To Darin,
Well said.
Should've listened to you.
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dmckj
Feb 24, 2005, 6:30 AM
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Hi Guys and Gals.....
I'm back....
Big-time Kudos to Ambler and Brian for carrying on my absence.
Ambler has admirably cut to the exact core of the issues at hand and, thankfully, without my boring input. Dangle has revealed himself in front of this entire web audience and it is far too late for him to retract his blather.
Dangle, once cornered, lashes out in the most pathetic manner. Imagine...a boy scout falls to his death and Dangle is busy lecturing folks about how the rope they replaced (at YOUR taxpayer's expense dear thread reader) wasn't tied in quite correctly. AND, my goodness, he goes off half-cocked (tried viagra recently Dangle, or is there no longer much angle to the the dangle?) and starts threatening all sorts of fantasy- induced lawsuits. Man....I couldn't have asked a better lead-in to the lawsuit story.
Would anyone bother to ask why Dangle wasn't there to help with the rescue, or why he wasn't climbing that day, or was he too busy talking to his broker or local herbal essence distributor? No, he is too busy playing victim. Meanwhile his arch-enemy Woods is busy with the unforgiveable sin of helping with a body recovery while using Dangle's rope.
I have also noted, dear thread readers, that NO ONE has bothered to pursue the Climb Against Nature story. Josh was on the trail, but backed off after Dangle chastized him for not buying a meal. (Lets' see... I pay for a meal and am therefore free to Bosh the living crap out of a virgin blank wall because I want to free climb where there are no holds...). I'm very disappointed. Guess I'll have to return to the scene of the crime, take photos, and post them for the hipocrisy of Dangle's rock conservation 'image' to take roost once and for all. Thank goodness I have a digital camera for the task.
And, again, Ambler has admirably gone back and taken a look at the facts of what was and what wasn't printed. I'll now upgrade that 3.2 pitcher to one of Guiness!
Oh yeah, and Brian is a good buddy of mine. When Dangle refers to us as 'BS' he must be referring to 'Both Sane', something he can only aspire to.
Good history coming up!
D
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dmckj
Feb 24, 2005, 3:01 PM
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Gentle Thread Readers,
It has, repeatedly, been brought to your and my attentions that elevated dialogue is the 'higher road' and preferred route of travel. I couldn't agree more. That being the case I kept my mouth shut about Dangle up until this thread.
But Dangle never had the right or privilege to make statements that are not based in fact, then challenge me on them, and then accuse me of lying with intent to deceive when I disagree with his characterization. For example, he STILL fantasizes that Fischer was the role model for B.G., this, of course, implying that my denial makes me an even MORE unconsciounable liar. Unreal.
The 'compromise' solution is not, as some have suggested, accepting some middle ground on this. What I have accused Dangle of (spreading lies about me, falsifying partners, drilling out routes to make them easier, drilling out blank faces to make them free climbable, threatening or following through with court actions) are all true and readily documentable. What he has claimed about me and my conspiratorial intentions are, flatly, not. Ambler has, admirably, laid out the fallacy of Dangle's claims.
Dangle's character has only been 'asassinated' by one person alone: himself. Presenting the facts of his actions and behavior does not in the least constitute an unfair attack against him, but rather presents a reckoning.
But, I don't see any self-realization on Dangle's horizon. So I'll add some more history segments and finish a few other tales and let this thread slowly trickle off.
But, heck, it sure has been a lot of fun in the meantime!!!
D
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ratagonia
Feb 24, 2005, 5:20 PM
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Contrary to what the little devil on each of the protagonists's shoulder is saying, most of us are here for the stories, not for the slagging.
More stories, please.
By the by, the stories make you look good, the slagging makes you look bad. Wouldn't you really rather look good?
T
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chairmanmeow
Feb 25, 2005, 1:01 AM
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Wow, Jones. Nearly a page of totally useless words. Not only did you fail to say anything new, you managed to find an even less eloquent and intelligible way to say the same tired sh!t you’ve been posting for weeks.
:deadhorse:
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dangle
Feb 25, 2005, 2:44 AM
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And he still hasn't answered about '70s routes, and John hasn't replied on the one word addition.
Well we're about to go over 20K views. Shouldn't there be some sort of ritual?
Festival of Equus Morti?
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dmckj
Feb 25, 2005, 2:50 AM
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Well....I'll quote the Beatles....
'But if you go listen to Chairmanmeow,
you ain't gonna make it with anyone, anyhow'.
Readers would do well to read Chairman Meow's cannonization of Dangle in another thread in this strip.
Historical installment coming up.
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rockprodigy
Feb 25, 2005, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: I wonder what a Yosemite history thread would read like...hopefully not like this slap-fest. Hopefully.
No, it would be a big circle-jerk of people patting each other on (or in) the back, because everyone who came to Yosemite with a slightly different approach from the "valley christians" was run out of town on a rail.
Yeah, the Yosemite locals were oh so much more friendly and accepting....
In Zion, different styles and different opinions are able to co-exist. I prefer that.
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dangle
Feb 25, 2005, 4:03 AM
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In reply to: " read Chairman Meow's cannonization of Dangle' Historical installment coming up.
He never pointed it. He only waved it around.
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chairmanmeow
Feb 25, 2005, 4:34 AM
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Dave Jones posted something related to route manufacturing several chapters back:
In reply to: Hard routes, ones that aren't dumbed down, protect themselves. For example, Empty Pages on Angels Landing or Wages of Sin on the Forbidden Wall are not prone to being destroyed because most folks are rightfully afraid of going up on them. That's great! No one is 'owed' the right to do a climb, nor to have the climb dumbed-down to their level. This promotes stupid climbing and gives many folks the delusion that they are big-wall capable when, in fact, they really aren't. At least not in Zion.
The purpose of constructive route creation is not to create “dumbed down” climbs because other climbers have some sort of “right to do a climb.” The goal is to make the route less fragile so it will survive more ascents and be there for future generations. However, the accessibility of a climb is inextricably tied to its danger and therefore its fragility, so making a route less fragile often makes it inherently less dangerous and therefore more accessible. More accessible routes like Touchstone give less experienced climbers something they can cut their teeth on, and the presence of such routes probably keeps hammer crazy newbies off the more difficult and fragile routes, in effect preserving them as well. I don’t think you can stop the increasing flow of climbers who want to experience Zion, nor do I think you should try, but you can make a place for the beginners to climb, and in doing so keep them off the thin nailing lines. Allowing our sport to develop a larger following could make a big difference in preserving our access to the cliffs in the future, and I think lines like Touchstone, Spaceshot, and Prodigal Sun help aid this process while preserving the cliffs. I mean really, Dave, isn’t there enough rock in southern Utah to go around? I promise us new kids will stay away from your precious Empty Pages and Wages of Sin; they’re all yours. I suppose it’s your prerogative to object to Ron’s routes opening the canyon to weekend warrior types like me, but it seems a bit duplicitous since you yourself fist climbed in Zion by repeating one of his lines.
Just my $.02
James in SLC
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dangle
Feb 25, 2005, 5:24 AM
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To Mike and Tom,
thank you for endorsing Darin's valuable contribution. Perhaps the only good to come of this "slapfest" (love it Mike!) was the eventual Jones year "nondenial" and the final partial disclosure by Middendorf for the basis of statements. Previously approached more than a half dozen times he had remained closed lipped.
Obviously the willingness to be forthright in accounts could have avoided great acrimony.
To the rest of you I apologize for allowing myself to get drawn into this.
In the spirit of celebrating our more adventurous lore perhaps henceforth we might address the more positive nature of our endeavors.
More anecfreakindotes!
Soloing big new routes in Zion is more than just 2 or 3 more times as much work. It is also a challenge to the spirit. The soloist always does the routefinding. The soloist always gets the first pitch of the day without belaying from the ledge. The soloist always goes to clear the bag. The soloist always leads the crux.
Unaware of its history Dave soloed Monkeyfinger thinking he was the first to lead every pitch, and I know he tried to put up the Swiss-American , the Fang Wall, and the Apex Wall, and if I remember right also spent a day on the Silmaril alone. Perhaps having "pushed standards" and done "more walls" than anyone Dave will tell a story of one that he put up solo.
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ratagonia
Feb 25, 2005, 5:24 AM
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Rah rah. An intelligent post from The Chairman.
Let me give you the perspective from a non-hardman.
There's 6 climbs I can do in Zion. Let's count em: Prodigal, Touch, Space Shot, Moonlight, Lunar X, MonkeyFinger. There's some free climbs too, but I can't do desert crack 5.10, and when I went to go do The Headache, I used the Bjornstead 'guide', so I was wandering off somewhere else and got on a climb I definitely could not do. The next level of climbs up are a BIG step up, and really, I'd rather go to Red Rox, or if I'm gonna climb walls, I'd rather go to Yo.
I know its not true, but it sure is convenient, because it keeps the gumbys on a small selection of climbs, and keeps the other climbs not only uncrowded, but also keeps them from getting beat up in that soft Zion stuff.
It's good. And Dangle's ethic of creating fun lines for the masses is greatly appreciated. Heck doesn't take much, just clean the pins the right way, and don't go up when its wet. I hear the thin bits on Spaceshot are really thin right now - but that came from non-aid climbers, so... hard to say- could be actually A1 still. Was one move on a 2 RP in 1995.
Tom
Tom
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dangle
Feb 25, 2005, 5:58 AM
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Tom
Tom
Sheer Lunacy goes at almost all C1.
Now which is the PM button...
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pmyche
Feb 25, 2005, 6:07 AM
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Thanks for the refinement, Ron. And the good reads past and future.
-M
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clmbr121
Feb 25, 2005, 6:39 PM
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I am loving this whole thread...Zion's darker side.
It is sad to know that these great stories came at the cost of a friendship...
I got my first exposure to climbing at Zion, and can't wait to get back to see those beautiful walls again...and Springdale is still one of the coolest small towns in America.
Danlge, Dave, any suggestions on easy to moderate free routes? The longer the better.
BTW...does anyone have any good stories about the local legend Stoneman?
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brianinslc
Feb 25, 2005, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: Tom, Sheer Lunacy goes at almost all C1.
Maybe except that last pitch off the T* Tower. Spooky and kinda thin. Free climbing bolts out there...but...kind of a scary traverse as well.
Great route, great finish. Classic.
Thanks,
Brian in SLC
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flamer
Feb 26, 2005, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: Danlge, Dave, any suggestions on easy to moderate free routes? The longer the better.
PM Bsmoot about his route on the backside of the Great White Throne....
josh
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dangle
Feb 26, 2005, 4:26 AM
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flamer's playing it safe keeping any post with the word "backside" very short.
Hey flamer, you didn't really think I was saying that YOU were cheap did you? (Recall Boy has a different way of dealing with a check .PM for it.)
Sorry about the abbreviated post but it was too tempting and seems to have vapor locked BS.
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 6:11 AM
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Steve is getting married
Picture this....virgin walls, colored deep red, black, pink, and, unfortunately on occasion, white. Imagine this....99% of them have never been climbed. Consider this.....my friend Steve Chardon is about to get married and forever drop climbing as a pointless recreational activity.
Mission: Climb before Steve gets married.
Objective: Anything virgin, but since everything was, basically, virgin we could do whatever we wanted.
Place: Duh....
Date: What can I say? If I give the actual dates I will be attacked for having 'proven' that a certain thread contributor is 'right' or vindicated, further proving, of course, that I am a conspiratorial liar. But if I don't give the correct dates I'll be a liar. So either way, I am a liar. So....let's just say between 1950 and 2010 to be on the safe side.
(Poignant and meaningful aside: I'd be tempted to add here that there are three fundamental reasons for NOT providing dates. They are: 1) I don't much care, 2) I actually have a real job and real life that keeps me away from climbing, my gear, and my topos, about 99.8765% of the time...ergo I couldn't check the exact dates if I wanted, 3) I don't respond to sophomoric challenges. Again, I would be TEMPTED to add this aside, but I won't).
Rationale: None I can recall.
Steve flew into the Vegas airport. If we had known where to find them we probably could have found Largo and Lynn hanging out with the Uriosites. Ahhhhh.....ships passing in the night. Undoubtedly, we spent the night in Vegas and almost as certainly I dropped a wad I couldn't justify at the Blackjack tables. Undoubtedly, this was at the Silver Slipper, at the time the friendliest club on the strip where the odds were pretty good while guys in drag danced in the 'Boylesque' show. How did they get those tits?, I recall wondering. I also recall Steve had a 'surefire win' system for the roulette table. He didn't.
But there was still the bolt issue. We didn't have any. We needed some, bad. We also need pins....bad. You see, Steve and I learned to climb in that era where the sun shone every day, when men and women weren't judged by their money or their name, when Chouinard had only barely mass marketed the original pile jacket and not yet degraded himself into Patagucchi, when Harding probably still had a bit of his liver left....etc. You see, we learned to climb when ALL bolts and ALL pins were bad, something to be ashamed of, sort of like....well I don't want to mention it. Oh yeah, we KNEW how to put a bolt or piton in, but this was akin to tasting the forbidden fruit. Yeah....we had enough pins to get up the standard walls in the Valley, but as so much of that stuff was fixed anyway (e.g. rurp ladders on the Shield) we didn't have quite enough to do the route I REALLY had my eyes on......(shrill and cheezy organ music enters here....)......WAGES OF SIN on the not yet christened Forbidden Wall (remember Dangle, christening requires that you first CLIMB the wall before naming it...or is that too difficult to fathom?).
So we needed pins and bolts.
I recall it as if it were yesterday, or maybe the day before that. We ambled into what was Vegas' only climbing shop and none other than Randy Grandstaff stood behind the counter. I swear I heard, or perhaps just imagined because of the cheap booze hangover I was nursing from the Silver Slipper (how DID they get those tits?), that haunting flute-like refrain from the Good Bad and Ugly as Steve sauntered up to the glass case with all the latest Chouinard hexcentrics underneath.
'What might you boys be lookin' for?' said Randy...sizing us up as two greenhorns.
'We'd be lookin' for some climbin' gear mister.' said Steve, willing to play along to see what hand Randy might draw.
'You're not from these parts, are you?'
'No' said Steve, 'We learned to climb in one of them Yankee states...New Hampshire to be exact, home of the famous Old Fart of the Mountains'.
'Never heard of him' said Randy.
'Look' said Steve wishing to get down to the brass tacks, 'We need some bolts, and we need 'em bad, real bad...if you get my drift.'
'BOLTS!?' said/asked Randy, his lips curling and snarling at the same time. 'Whaddya want them for?' he seethed.
Steve was sensing he had caught a BIG one this time, sort of like Dangle trawling for big wall newbies from Salt Lake......
'Why, heck, we're gonna put ourselves in a few bolt ladders' said Steve, a smile rising across his face.
'No bolts!' shot back Randy.
'No bolts?' we asked.
'No, no bolts. You shouldn't use any bolts!'
'O.K., look, we're not climbing here...we're gonna up to Zion and do some new routes...in a place called Olevskyland' Steve replied.
'Well, heck, why didn't you say so in the first place?' Randy replied, beaming, apparently happy that we weren't going to bolt his precious Red Rocks.
Actually, that was just the jist of it. But Grandstaff didn't want to sell us any bolts and we pretty much had to tell him we'd like to speak to the shop owner to make the purchase. Suddenly, and sullenly, the bolt box appeared. But the truth is we were unsophisticated enough to believe that normal split bolts would work 'O.K.', so that's all we could get our hands on....but heck, we were happy enough for the moment.
The downside was we could only buy about 5 pins, none of which were RURPS. Having scouted out the soon-to-be 'Wages of Sin' line I was sure we would need those. So, somehow, I paid for pins somewhere and they were going to be shipped to us care of General Delivery in Springdale (hard to believe, huh?). So Steve and I rolled into Zion with bad bolts and a tiny arsenal of pitons, but not nearly enough to do Wages of Sin. To give ourselves a litte delay time we decided to bop into the Kolob, a long tale unto itself (more on that). But after our successful foray into the Kolob we returned to find STILL no pitons in the mail.
Luckily I had a fallback plan....you see on the Twin Brother I had spotted a killer buttress with a killer slitter right through the headwall. Looked awesome. So we went for that one first, instead of Wages of Sin.
Why did we do it? Because our pitons were all 'Lost in Transit'. Hence the name of the route on the Twin Brother.
more soon on the story of that ascent.....
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 5:06 PM
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Couldn't resist noting....
In reply to: And Dangle's ethic of creating fun lines for the masses is greatly appreciated.
Am I the only one that sees this as an oxymoron?
.In reply to: Heck doesn't take much, just clean the pins the right way, and don't go up when its wet
Oh..is THAT all it takes.. you been puttin too much in your pipe boy..
you ever heard of a drill bit?
Speaking of the masses, this is getting a bit too Orwellian for me. My advice: take two Soma's and call me in 1984.
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 6:09 PM
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And now gentle readers, it is time for a new show....
Dave's Daily Dangle Deconstruction
Brought to you by Rawl...maker of fine anchor fasteners, and by Dandy Dean's Kosher Klimbing shop in Springdale Utah. (Powder Milk biscuits was recently dropped as a sponsor folks....too hot in the kitchen if you know what I mean).
First...
In reply to: I mean really, Dave, isn’t there enough rock in southern Utah to go around? I promise us new kids will stay away from your precious Empty Pages and Wages of Sin; they’re all yours. I suppose it’s your prerogative to object to Ron’s routes opening the canyon to weekend warrior types like me, but it seems a bit duplicitous since you yourself fist climbed in Zion by repeating one of his lines.
You should re-read my earlier posts. I certainly have never denigrated Dangle's Touchstone, for example. An outstanding route as is, for another example, Iron Messiah. Prodigal, however, is another matter. Remember, I helped Dangle carry his ropes up to rappel preview upper Prodigal so I am not sinless. But my view remains that climbers should aspire to improve their skills rather than to seek out climbs that have been brought down to their level. It becomes too close to Euro-climbing. If such a route is promoted by someone as a '50 Classic' in a public forum this is sending a message, a POTENT message, to younger wall climbers that these types of routes are the apex of Zion climbing. I vehemently disagree. Has anyone counted the actual number of bolts on that route? Off the top of my head I would put it at comfortably over 80, this on a route that is barely 1000 feet tall.
This 'anything goes' attitude, actively fostered today in large part by climbing gyms and sport climbing, is like weeds you can't get rid of. All of you aspiring Zion climbers: please don't succumb to this mentality. It degrades the sport.
As for my routes being 'precious', thanks (though I note your sarcasm), but I am not possesive about my routes, nor would ever threaten climbers on my routes with a gun. I am not like Dangle: It is not my canyon, nor are they 'my' routes to own or control.
Deconstruction/translation continued:
In reply to: Soloing big new routes in Zion is more than just 2 or 3 more times as much work. It is also a challenge to the spirit. The soloist always does the routefinding. The soloist always gets the first pitch of the day without belaying from the ledge. The soloist always goes to clear the bag. The soloist always leads the crux.
Ron...I think Mohammed Ali said this more succintly 'I AM THE GREATEST'. Certainly, more powerful, direct, and less self-aggrandizing.
In reply to: Unaware of its history Dave soloed Monkeyfinger thinking he was the first to lead every pitch, and I know he tried to put up the Swiss-American , the Fang Wall, and the Apex Wall, and if I remember right also spent a day on the Silmaril alone. Perhaps having "pushed standards" and done "more walls" than anyone Dave will tell a story of one that he put up solo.
Again, this is Dangle at his finest. Textbook. Let's analyze this....
Has anyone ever heard me suggest I ever did a first wall ascent solo? Is there any written or promoted claim anywhere that I was the first to lead every pitch on Monkeyfinger? Fact is, I never have put up a wall solo. I started soloing what is now the Swiss-American in December of some year (long before it was climbed) but came down because, frankly, it was dark and lonely and depressing. Started rope soloing the route 'Hello Mary Lou' on the Angelino Wall (not the 'Apex' wall) and got halfway up. Problem there was that it was all outstanding free climbing and I had no way to free climb it on solo lead -- I felt I was degrading the route aiding it (I was). So I rounded up Bob Yoho and we freed all but the first and part of one of the upper pitches. OUTSTANDING route that never gets done. As to Lovelace and Silmaril, I never tried to rope solo those other than for the fact that my valiant partners in both cases wanted 'days off' to recover. I didn't.
But the implications are that I am nefariously 'unaware' (recurring conspiracy theme) and thus intentionally misleading, that I have tried and consistently failed at solo first ascents, and that I have been self-promotional. The reader should note that my ONLY reason for stating that I had put up more walls than Dangle was simply to point out the most obvious reason for his vendetta against myself in particular. He just can't STAND that simple fact and, worst of all, that he'll never catch up to me (insert shameless and goading gloating with snickering soundtrack here).
Also, another gem, in a single paragraph Dangle mis-applies names. You see, Dangle discovered every line and climb in Zion back in Jurassic times when the sands were being deposited. So he applies his own name 'Fang Wall' to 'Lovelace' (a wall and route he has never climbed) and 'Apex Wall' to another climb and wall he hasn't climbed. Clever, huh? Really, I don't mind much, but it is important for thread readers to be aware of his style in these matters and the blatant hipocrisy attendant in one who portrays himself as the defender of Zion Truth and Accuracy.
But the Hoover Vacuum of Logic award goes to....
In reply to: Perhaps the only good to come of this "slapfest" was the eventual Jones year "nondenial" and the final partial disclosure by Middendorf for the basis of statements. Previously approached more than a half dozen times he had remained closed lipped. Obviously the willingness to be forthright in accounts could have avoided great acrimony.
Sounds dark and sinister and black-helicopters-in-the-nightish, doesn't it? Translated loosely....this means something like 'I am an above-it-all sort of guy who was unwillingly forced to expose an historical conspiracy in the making that I at least partially got the protagonists to admit. None of this was my fault.'
I am not sure what thread Dangle was reading, but it certainly wasn't this one. You know, one reason I gave up pot smoking when I was 17 was I began to realize it was making me paranoid.
HAH!!!....there is that damned canyon shaking laugh again....could it mean.?....is that white dust I see slowly filtering in from the heavens?....is it really time for....possibly.....Drinkin Beer Are Ya??
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chairmanmeow
Feb 26, 2005, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: Speaking of the masses, this is getting a bit too Orwellian for me. My advice: take two Soma's and call me in 1984.
Soma was Huxley, not Orwell. Brave New World was published a decade or two before 1984, but who cares about names and dates, right?
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: ... Their happiness can be continued endlessly by taking the drug soma by making ... it is often compared with George Orwell's 1984
And so I did, or was the allusion too difficult?
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 6:58 PM
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Ed....
We've hit the 20K readership mark and the bonus payments will have to kick in fairly immediately or else Dangle and I will cease and desist...
Personally, I am worried about peaking too soon. With Pesci holding out for an Oscar snagging script, and Gibson balking at playing someone better looking than he (hey I can't help it!) we are on the verge of trying to negotiate residual terms on the downside of this....
Meanwhile, I am burned out. My creative staff went on strike last week, forcing me to produce my own sub-standard filler posts. Luckily, they returned last night just in time for a late save. Certainly, this adds drama, but at what cost?
Did the History Channel express any interest in this? I mean the Jewish-Gentile angle has got to have some traction. Are there any famous Islamic climbers who have done Touchstone or Prodigal that we could contact to get this thing a little more 3-dimensional (maybe along the lines of 9 virgins waiting in Heaven with freshly charged Bosch's if they are shot while nailing one of Ron's routes? Can we somehow link Ron to Israeli intelligence activities?) We've got the Mormon angle with Brian, but we are in negotiations on the tithing issue, so he is temporarily withdrawing.
(O.K......post....)
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dmckj
Feb 26, 2005, 7:01 PM
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Ed,
One more thing.
Devo has been whining to me about residuals in a PM.
I suppose in fairness for the Timbertop thing he deserves a cut.
I'll pass him a 5% share if Dangle does same and you do 2%.
BTW, not to pressure you, but I've been getting some serious offers from headhunters for another up-and-coming thread.....
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flamer
Feb 26, 2005, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: flamer's playing it safe keeping any post with the word "backside" very short. Hey flamer, you didn't really think I was saying that YOU were cheap did you? (Recall Boy has a different way of dealing with a check .PM for it.) Sorry about the abbreviated post but it was too tempting and seems to have vapor locked BS.
HUH???
Ron you keep sounding like a goof......
josh
P.S.
Sorry to disrupt the slam fest to give out a useful suggestion....
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dangle
Feb 26, 2005, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: And now gentle readers, it is time for a new show.... Dave's Daily Dangle Deconstruction Brought to you by Rawl...maker of fine anchor fasteners, and by Dandy Dean's Kosher Klimbing shop in Springdale Utah........... It becomes too close to Euro-climbing. If such a route is promoted by someone as a '50 Classic' in a public forum this is sending a message, a POTENT message, to younger wall climbers that these types of routes are the apex of Zion climbing. I vehemently disagree. Has anyone counted the actual number of bolts on that route? Off the top of my head I would put it at comfortably over 80, this on a route that is barely 1000 feet tall. This 'anything goes' attitude, actively fostered today in large part by climbing gyms and sport climbing, is like weeds you can't get rid of. All of you aspiring Zion climbers: please don't succumb to this mentality. It degrades the sport. As for my routes being 'precious', thanks ........... I am not like Dangle: It is not my canyon, nor are they 'my' routes to own or control. Deconstruction/translation continued: Ron...I think Mohammed Ali said this more succintly 'I AM THE GREATEST'. Certainly, more powerful, direct, and less self-aggrandizing. Again, this is Dangle at his finest. Textbook. Let's analyze this.... Has anyone ever heard me suggest I ever did a first wall ascent solo? Is there any written or promoted claim anywhere that I was the first to lead every pitch on Monkeyfinger? Fact is, I never have put up a wall solo. I started soloing what is now the Swiss-American in December of some year (long before it was climbed) but came down because, frankly, it was dark and lonely and depressing. Started rope soloing the route 'Hello Mary Lou' on the Angelino Wall (not the 'Apex' wall) and got halfway up. Problem there was that it was all outstanding free climbing and I had no way to free climb it on solo lead -- I felt I was degrading the route aiding it (I was). So I rounded up Bob Yoho and we freed all but the first and part of one of the upper pitches. OUTSTANDING route that never gets done. As to Lovelace and Silmaril, I never tried to rope solo those other than for the fact that my valiant partners in both cases wanted 'days off' to recover. I didn't. But the implications are that I am nefariously 'unaware' (recurring conspiracy theme) and thus intentionally misleading, that I have tried and consistently failed at solo first ascents, and that I have been self-promotional. The reader should note that my ONLY reason for stating that I had put up more walls than Dangle was simply to point out the most obvious reason for his vendetta against myself in particular. He just can't STAND that simple fact and, worst of all, that he'll never catch up to me (insert shameless and goading gloating with snickering soundtrack here). Also, another gem, in a single paragraph Dangle mis-applies names. You see, Dangle discovered every line and climb in Zion back in Jurassic times when the sands were being deposited. So he applies his own name 'Fang Wall' to 'Lovelace' (a wall and route he has never climbed) and 'Apex Wall' to another climb and wall he hasn't climbed. Clever, huh? Really, I don't mind much, but it is important for thread readers to be aware of his style in these matters and the blatant hipocrisy attendant in one who portrays himself as the defender of Zion Truth and Accuracy. But the Hoover Vacuum of Logic award goes to......... ..........Sounds dark and sinister and black-helicopters-in-the-nightish, doesn't it? Translated loosely....this means something like 'I am an above-it-all sort of guy who was unwillingly forced to expose an historical conspiracy in the making that I at least partially got the protagonists to admit. None of this was my fault.' I am not sure what thread Dangle was reading, but it certainly wasn't this one. You know, one reason I gave up pot smoking when I was 17 was I began to realize it was making me paranoid. HAH!!!....there is that damned canyon shaking laugh again....could it mean.?....is that white dust I see slowly filtering in from the heavens?....is it really time for....possibly..... Drinkin Beer Are Ya??
The kosher joke isn't.
It was 50 FAVORITE climbs. If Dave didn't like it why did he repeat it? Did he smell another dog?
I've done Prodigal more than ten times and have moved beyond attempting to maintain my routes. But if Jones makes good on his threat to remove fixed gear a lot of other climbers will be disappointed.
I never said that Dave had claimed a solo FA. I just wondered, with all his great deeds and some known attempts, HOW MANY?
I still maintain that Middendorf's unwillingness to grant that his history would be less ambiguous if it read,"in the late '70s and early '80s" RESPECTIVELY, and far more importantly that the Terrier's UNWILLINGNESS to DENY '70s climbs dovetails in there rather neatly.
Dave's making light of real and documented hate crimes, indeed the suggestion of Dean being kosher, betrays his own hateful nature (OK. OK. I know. It was obvious already.)
C'mon Jones. How about a story that makes us happy to be climbers?
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dangle
Feb 26, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Josh,
perhaps you didn't catch Dave's misinterpretation of my earlier question. (I wasn't suggesting anyone was cheap among the people at the meal you mentioned.)
The abbreviated post I refered to was the chopped down version of your post. For someone that feels about Mormons the way you do I figured you'd understand.
You do don't you? Backside? Kindnesses???
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dmckj
Feb 27, 2005, 12:48 AM
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In reply to: But if Jones makes good on his threat to remove fixed gear a lot of other climbers will be disappointed.
Huh??? The only route I erased was the 100% artificial Climb Against Nature. I'm not into removing fixed gear. Have never, and would never, make such a 'threat'. More crowd manipulation I fear....
BTW, I have ZERO qualms about people doing and enjoying Prodigal Son. It is a fun way to spend the day. In bits and pieces it is 'the' natural line for that part of the face. I further, if you can believe it, admire the diligence in putting it up in its current state. I do have problem with putting up any more of its kind with so many bolts. I also have a HUGE problem with folks considering it a Zion 'classic' owing to its overbolted nature. Touchstone would have been far more deserving of being honored as a classic 'favorite' route, and one I would wholeheartedly agree with. For example, I think Touchstone is better than Moonlight, Spaceshot, Prodigal. (The gentle thread readers might be interested to know that I put Spaceshot on my 'B' list of FA's. From my perspective, better routes include.....Lovelace, Shune's, The Vigil, Golden Years. But that's just my view.)
In reply to: I never said that Dave had claimed a solo FA. I just wondered, with all his great deeds and some known attempts, HOW MANY?
ZERO. NONE. I am an unmitigated failure in my two serious, but half-hearted, attempts of solo first ascents. Every night I look at the photo of Dangle posted above my bed and I sigh deeply and think.......'some day I'll get up a solo first ascent just like him'. But maybe not! Dangle is the undisputed King of the solo first ascents. (Actually, a largely unnoted historical figure is the maniacally driven Jim Beyer. To my knowledge, Jim did a heck of a lot more first ascents than Fischer, AND he did solo ascents. But then I wouldn't accuse Ron trying to subvert that...or....?)
In reply to: I still maintain that Middendorf's ....... history would be less ambiguous if it read,"in the late '70s and early '80s" RESPECTIVELY
Hey...I am completely and utterly O.K. with that, if this makes you happier. Again, I don't much care. There, was that so hard? Actually, if that DOES make you happy, let's strike up a band!!! I'll even go as far as to post all of the chronological dates of my FA's on this very thread ONCE I get back into the country!!
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flamer
Feb 27, 2005, 12:54 AM
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In reply to: Josh, perhaps you didn't catch Dave's misinterpretation of my earlier question. (I wasn't suggesting anyone was cheap among the people at the meal you mentioned.) The abbreviated post I refered to was the chopped down version of your post. For someone that feels about Mormons the way you do I figured you'd understand. You do don't you? Backside? Kindnesses???
Ok got it....
josh
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grayhghost
Feb 27, 2005, 1:34 AM
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I like it more when Dave can weave in personal
attacks within a story rather than Ron just spewing
the hate he can't handle himself. Keep up the story
telling, and if you have to sling mud, do it within a
good F.A. tale. Now get back in the ring and knock
eachother out.
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dangle
Feb 27, 2005, 1:54 AM
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The Terrier needs to take it up with Kim. Didn't she call it a favorite.
I don't know of any solo FAs by Scott but before cams he often ran it out enough to make a belayer ornamental. He more than anyone deserves distinction for the boldness of his approach to Zion climbing in the late '70s. I'm glad that Jones is willing to grant that he was part of the "second wave" that built upon routes like Moonlight and Touchstone as well as the emergence of camming technology in order to further realize Zion's potential.
I am flattered that he has my picture above his bed and am only mildly perturbed as to its function. He never said anything on Earth Orbit Ledge.
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chairmanmeow
Feb 27, 2005, 5:54 PM
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In reply to: Chouinard had only barely mass marketed the original pile jacket and not yet degraded himself into Patagucchi...
My choice would have been Pradagonia, but Patagucci works too.
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brianinslc
Feb 27, 2005, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: The Terrier needs to take it up with Kim. Didn't she call it a favorite.
Curious about that, too. Maybe, for balance, the book needed a couple Zion routes to go along with the dignitaries chosen for inclusion. I heard tell that a few folk didn't want to be included. Any idear who?
The pictures of Kim's solo of Lunar X are pretty neat. Almost surprised she didn't pick that. Although, maybe, to avoid routes like were in the original Fifty Classics (unobtainium!), maybe one that appealed more to the masses and was more "doable" and/or more popular was what the author went for. Or, was a special climb for Kim.
Hard to believe that CF went for Sunlight Buttress as his favorite in the US. Wow. But, pretty neat too.
In reply to: I don't know of any solo FAs by Scott but before cams he often ran it out enough to make a belayer ornamental. He more than anyone deserves distinction for the boldness of his approach to Zion climbing in the late '70s.
Curious about the Eagle Crags. Didn't Scott do a bunch of routes out there? Any chance of hearing some of that history?
Thanks,
Brian in SLC
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rockprodigy
Feb 28, 2005, 3:25 AM
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About the 50 favorites debacle. I heard third-hand from the editor, Mark Kroese, that Johnny was "going" to choose Moonlight, so everyone else stayed away from it, then, at the last minute, he changed his mind.
Weak excuse if you ask me. I kinda think Kroese should have taken more responsibility with the route selection, rather than leaving it up to nearly 50 insecure egos. Talk about "unobtanium"...you can add "unclassic" as well.
"Wilford coulior" on "Point Blanchard"...yeah, definite classic.
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golsen
Mar 1, 2005, 9:01 AM
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Hi all,
quite the thread. I don’t know if some of this belongs here but since I know some of you on here from many years ago I have a couple Zions stories to tell. No history making, probably not even any history substantiation but what the hell...Furthermore, my notes below are simply on here as the facts as I remember them and I do not have any axes to grind with any of you. Quite the contrary, I appreciated Ron's significant efforts on Cerberus and his partners on Spaceshot as well as Jeff Lowe's so that I could learn to climb big walls in a beautiful environment. I apologize for the lengthy thread.
From my perspective in the early 80's Zion was a backwater place, perfect to go climb a wall that not many people had climbed. Don’t get me wrong, backwater is good and certainly the walls of Zion were and still are awesome. It was 1981 or so when I went to try Cerberus as my first wall. I don’t remember how we met Ron but once we started the first pitch he came up and talked to us. It was cool and he seemed to be eager to have someone try his routes. For me at that time, Cerberus was very challenging. Ron watched me climb for 4 hours until I got to the belay. He got a little fiesty, and probably rightly so when I reached for the hammer to hit a nut that didnt want to set right. Needless to say we bailed. I realized 4 hours per pitch would have taken us forever and I needed to refine my aid skills on my home Granite prior to taking it to the Navaho. Ron was alright with all of this and my friend Chris P ended up getting his number. At that time I wasnt qualified (and maybe still not) to determine the merits of constructive scarring. What was obvious, was that the route had required a lot of work to complete and it seemed like Ron was eager to share his work with other climbers. In those days there just were very few climbers going to Zion.
Chris and I went back in about 1985 and completed the route. I was happy to spend 30 minutes on a pitch that had taken me 4 hours before. I am sure that the route is different now than it was then. Awesome route Ron! Back then I tossed my bag off of every Zion wall I did (not always with success). Before everyone getting on me about being hazardous let me remind you that there just were not any other climbers in Zion.
I think it was only a couple years after that when Chris and I climbed with Ron in Snow Canyon. I can only say that I was deeply disturbed about some of the stuff that was going on there. There was a beautiful face that had been drilled. I guessed that it would have went at 5.11. In an attempt to fix these holes, some obviously inexperienced kids had put what looked like plaster in the holes. Not a pretty sight against the desert varnish.
If the drilling wasn’t disturbing enough, riding with Ron in his Bronco filled with assault weapons was a little strange. I have to hand it to you Ron, you were and apparently still are original (take that as a compliment). In a world filled with people trying to do the right thing Ron was doing his own thing (ie: constructive scarring). I guess that is how you can either alienate people or expand the boundaries or sometimes both.
In 1984 Chris, Jim and I went to do Space Shot. It went well and we did place a few pitons. Some were placed because for young climbers who learned according to Royal Robbins Rockcraft, it seemed downright difficult to find a place where one could practice the art of piton craft. Not only that, there were definitely places where I wanted them. It wasn’t another several years before that climb was done clean. I think that was the fourth ascent, (anyway that is what I read in the climbing mags) of the route. I was at the bivvy ledge and there was an offending rock in the way, about as big as I could pick up. Not being the brightest guy around I tossed it off. It was kind of dark at that point and right after I tossed it a car came around the corner. I was like oh shit, now I have done it. The car stopped and searchlights came on. Oh great, a rangers car, even better. I realized that if that rock had hit the road I could have killed someone. The searchlight scanned the wall and after a while it took off. The next morning there was no sign of rocks on the road and no rangers, so I thought I was probably safe in terms of getting in trouble with Mr. Ranger.
In 1985 Guy Toombes and I tried the Lowe Route on the N. Face of Angels Landing. The info I had gave a rating of 5.7 A2. We were climbing it too slowly and bailed. I think Conrad climbed it twice before Guy and I made it back the following year. It took us three days on what I think was the 5th ascent. Needless to say when I met Jeff at a slideshow I asked him about the sandbag rating and he laughed and said it was a big pile of sand anyway. Guy thought the route was harder then the Nose. For me, it still remains a great adventure on a fairly untouched route. I can’t believe Jeff did the first ascent of the route as a teenager. Very impressive.
Climbing in Zion’s in the 80’s was an adventure. In all the times I climbed there I never saw another party on a wall. The only time I ran into other climbers was when Conrad and Drew did the FA of Electra and brought Sport Climbing to Zion. Those new fresh all American images of Conrad in the mags and advertisements are way different than the ghetto blasting, smoking sport climber I had fun with those couple days in Zion’s. I can’t imagine a better place to learn to wall climb, more user friendly, yes, but certainly not more beautiful and wild than those days were. Many of you who have posted here were responsible for the rich history and it would appear that some of it isn’t the cleanest laundry. But I also think it is fair to say that all of us that climbed there had more in common than we had differences. When we are dead and gone the walls of Zion will still be baking in the sun jutting into the sky and all of this spray won’t matter much. Maybe then some climbing historian will sift through various sources and put history down and we wont even be there call bullshit. I hope future generations will continue to find their own adventures on that rock.
Gary
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golsen
Mar 1, 2005, 11:13 AM
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In reply to: 5.11 granite slab climbers storm Zion It was a hot spring day in Zion. Les Ellison was on the sharp end, carefully nailing his way up a thin blade crack. It was 1980, and this was to be the first ascent of Magic Carpet Ride – IV 5.9 A3+, a steep route up-canyon from Touchstone. Suddenly, PING! PING! Whoosh. Clank! He had just taken a short plunge. As Les gathered his wits, wiping the sweat off of his forehead, he heard shrieks of laughter drift up from below. It was Dangle, floating down the Virgin River in his rubber raft. He was naked, shouting up all kinds of taunts to Les up baking on the wall…he was splashing in the cool water, generally giving his friend a hard time. At the time, Les and I were working on a guidebook to Little Cottonwood Canyon, in Utah. Most of the quality granite climbing was slab stuff. Several years later, two of our friends who had climbed a lot of hard granite face and slab routes announced to me one day that they were going to Zion to climb Cerberus (now called Touchstone). Knowing these guys quite well, I was taken back. “You haven’t done any aid have you?” They replied, ”No, but it’s supposed to be easy aid.” Hmm, my mind reeled. Here I had done LOTS of pitches of aid on short crags for practice, paid my dues…before attempting my first wall, and these guys were just going to run up Cerberus! Somehow, I happened to be in Zion at the same time these friends of mine were going to storm Zion. It was now morning and I was all beat to hell after a typical wall thrashing. We were enjoying a post-climb relaxation day. We were curious to see our friends on Cerberus. In fact, you rarely saw another climber on a wall in those days. When you did, they were usually quite worthy…most had spent time on the big stone. Dangle, for example, had done the second solo ascent of the Shield. Tourists weren’t familiar with climbers like they now are, and likely thought, “What are these poor wretches doing here??” As Warren Harding said, “They thought we were poorly dressed fisherman”. Stopping by, we noticed they were about 20 feet up the first pitch. They weren’t moving. After a while, we left to take a short hike and scope new routes. “Wow this place has lots of cracks!” Four hours later these climbers were only a little higher. The other was now leading. Dangle was present with his patented bull horn, shouting up instructions: “You need to place the nut BEFORE you clip your aider to it!... Use a #4 stopper there…You need to step higher…it’s only A1.” Ignoring Dangle, contemplating the exposure, I heard one of them say, “This nut just sank an inch! Whoa! Oh no, the one below me just fell out! WATCH ME!” Near the end of the day, they finally made it to the top of the first pitch. Dangle was still there…"DO YOU NEED A RESCUE? DO YOU KNOW HOW TO GET DOWN??” Being safely on the ground, I was enjoying the harassment. The next day, with their tails between their legs, they abandoned the climb. Although thoroughly schooled, my friends would later go on to climb big walls…though granite only.
Damn Brian! I would not have signed on here with my real name had I read this before hand! Nor would I have left my account. But I am pretty good at laughing at myself so....yes that was me. much better than my story I may add.
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dmckj
Mar 1, 2005, 3:33 PM
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(personally, I think writing about one's first ascents is a form of great immodesty -- attribute that to my New England background -- but as folks keep clamoring for 'stories', what the heck)
First, a little philosophy.....
Coming from the Valley scene of the mid-late 70's I arrived in Zion as pretty much a convert to doing things in 'good style'. I can recall sitting in Yosemite Lodge during bad weather and hearing Andy Embick ranting about what bad form it was to fix lines on El Cap. So Steve Chardon and I subsequently did the Shield, hauling from the ground up all the way. That was just for the immature desire to say 'so there!, I did it your way'. I recall hauling the Free Blast was a real pain. I remember sleeping on Black Ledge (or whatever) and waking up in the middle of the night to feel a mouse chewing on my 'original' Chouinard pile jacket. I thought it was a dream until I swung my hand by my head and connected with a furry body. He must have gone the full distance down the cliff, and I had a permanent quarter-sized hole in my pile, a fond memory of a climb.
Anyway, arriving to Zion these stylistic considerations just didn't make sense. On Cerberus we fixed two pitches and then 'went for it'. On Moonlight, Josh and I fixed the first 3 pitches (these are 'old' pitches folks) with two ropes, then Josh opted out of climbing with Ron and Ron finished the route with me.
Keep in mind, I arrived into Zion with maybe two sets of Friends (1-3), no half sizes (these bought from Ray himself), and a total aversion to nailing unless it was knife blades or RURPS. On Ron's and my first climb together, Moonlight, I was TOTALLY freaked when he started NAILING the perfect cracks. I am positive I gave him verbal shit about it, saying something like...'Ron, what the hell are you doing up there?'. I am just as positive I made some remark like 'Use the Friends for god's sake!'. He didn't much care, but obviously wasn't used to having someone chew HIM out (it was always the obverse). Cleaning those pitches with plus-or-minus inch-sized perfect cracks with pins sticking out of them just made we want to cry.
With only two sets of Friends, and no half-sizes STILL (you see I thought it extravagant at the time to pay $15 a piece for a camming device) we did Spaceshot. I led most (all?) of the approach pitches and was the guy who lead off through what is the 'crux' of the climb. I recall putting in a few pins on this pitch but, as much as possible, did it all clean. I simply thought nailing was a form of admitting defeat except where absolutely required.
It was Ron's turn to lead one of the headwall pitches on Spaceshot. Out came the hammer and pins. I was APOPLECTIC, tried to contain myself, but finally yelled up "WHAT are you DOING?? USE THE FRIENDS!!" Unusual for Ron, the reply came down that he basically didn't know how to use them (fair enough), but SHIT what a crime to be nailing on cracks. I am fuzzy on what happened next, but I think I may have convinced Ron to cut his pitch short and let me lead the rest of the headwall. Simply put, we didn't have enough of the right gear (exluding pitons) to do long pitches. Two sets of Friends and no half-sizes, and I can recall long strethes where a #2 was just too small, and a #3 was just too big. No 2.5's. The technique I used to get up (that I first used on Shune's Buttress, a similar scenario) was to take ALL my cams with me all the time, and only pause at absolutely bomber nut/hex placements. Typcally there would be 20-50 feet between really good pieces. Technically 'A1', but with little of the appropriate gear and an unwillingness to place any pins it was realistically a lot harder and more dangerous than that. On Earth Orbit Ledge I am sure I lectured Ron long and hard about his 'obligation' to go out and buy cams. To his credit, he went out and bought a truckload immediately thereafter. Readers can verify this account in his old article (the Wheatberry article) on the first ascent. (I might add, from Ron's point of view it was incredible to him that I didn't have my exact pin sizes down to an art, which means I would always 'bracket' what I would send up to him on a tag line, earning me a verbal abuse barrage, to which I would respond 'stop complaining, you got what you needed!'.
Anyway, I digress. The point was stylistic 'concerns' which, being a New Hampshire inspired climber type, I didn't have much use for anyway. As noted the 'pure' style of a continuous push just didn't make much sense in Zion. The climbs were just short enough that a strong push after fixing ropes was a HELL of a lot more logical than hauling up bivy gear. (Not to mention the patented Layton Kor philosophy of rappeling to drink beer every night.) So for almost ALL of the mostly to completely free routes I tried to just 'go for it', with several notable exceptions.
That 'go for it' attitude we applied to my earliest ascents of Shune's, (Spaceshot we bivied and Ron wouldn't put out....something about me not respecting him in the morning if he did), Golden Years, and, leading into a short story,
Lost in Transit...
coming up...
But first, to close out the thought, the idea of 'going for it' has always appealed to me. It certainly makes for an exciting day when you have 5-7 new pitches to finish, a descent to figure out, and a few blank 'problematic' spots on your route. Sometime it goes easier than you think, sometime harder, but it is always interesting. The worst time I got 'caught' going for it was with Mark Austin on the 'almost' complete first ascent of the Vigil on The Watchman. A pitch I had counted on as 'easy' turned into hard free with a hard aid finish. We never recovered from that lost time and ended up in the dark two pitches from the top. But we had a gas drilling and rappelling in the dark, arriving by about 2 a.m. back to Springdale. When Conrad joined me for the complete ascent we bivied on 'Violation Ledge', a highly recommended place to hang and enjoy incredible views. During this ascent I found the free variation to the problematic aid pitch (see photo page 40 Climbing No. 227 Feb 2004) that is unprotected but pretty easy. I had no pro up the face and freaked out enough to finally put in a bolt which turned out to be only ONE move from a hidden protection crack -- oh well. It is good we bivied because it gave us a chance to figure out and put up the last two pitches on the route, both of which are superb.
If you want a fun free climbing adventure and break out of the 'upper Zion Canyon' box mentality, go do The Vigil.
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dmckj
Mar 1, 2005, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: From my perspective in the early 80's Zion was a backwater place, perfect to go climb a wall that not many people had climbed. Don’t get me wrong, backwater is good
Yes....that stirs up images of Ron and I wading through dark and fetid waters, sort of like creatures from the Black Lagoon.
I like the imagery.
A place you would never allow your daughters or sisters to stray at night, alone, to the Bit and Spur....nevertheless......
reminds me of yet another story..
let's call it Tunnel of Love
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rocknroll
Mar 1, 2005, 6:59 PM
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Anybody ever climb at Colorado City? I drove in there to check out the crags and things got wierd quick. (For those of you who don't know, Colorado City is where the outcast polygamists of the Mormon religion live). First thing you notice is the houses. Huge! Get another wife and kid, add another wing. Then I saw the women. Total Stepford wives in there old fashion country dresses. I stopped a fellow and asked him how to get to the rocks. He looked at me quizzically and kept looking over towards a ball field. "That rock is loose and dangerous...Ain't no rock climbing here." I drove by the ball field and saw about seventy people in two paralell lines, men on one side women on the other. They were doing some sort of dance ritual.
Finally I found the crags. Biggest ones are about 900 feet but most are about 400-600' . As I drove out, there was a cop blocking the road. I had been driving all day and was pretty wired on illicit substances. I decided to pull off the road and let him pass. But he didn't move. He got out of his car and came over to me.
"I heard you was snooping around theball fields. We don't take kindly to strangers snooping around our town.'
I was done for. I had to think of something quick. "Hey!,' I said enthusiastically, "You would know!"
He cocked his head and waited for me to go on.
"I'm a rock climber and climbed a bunch in Zion. You ever do Search and Rescue training here?"
"Why, yes son, I have!" A big smile spread across his face and he puffed out his chest and adjusted his pants. "I been on that one, that one and that one."
We must have been jawin' for over two hours as he told me tale after tale of his daring feats in the canyon. Usual stuff, rescuing kids on rocks and OHV accidents. I pretty much got the go ahead to climb there from Officer Cooke. "How about camping? Can we camp in the Canyon?"
"You're gonna have to ask the Deacon about that one. I don't have authority to say yay or nay."
Truth is he doesn't have the jurisdiction. Colrado City is in Arizona and the crags are just over the border in Utah.
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dmckj
Mar 1, 2005, 7:05 PM
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So there we were....Steve and I....in the earliest 80's....without enough pitons to do what would become Wages of Sin on the Forbidden Wall, but maybe, just maybe enough pins to do the new line we had scoped on South Twin Brother.
The buttress is beautiful. If it lay alongside the road and was as easily viewed as the upper canyon the route would have been climbed a hundred times by now. But it isn't..... You really can't much see it as you drive up the canyon unless you really crane your neck.
In a climbing void, the route looked very appealing to me.....a scaled down version of the Shield.....free-climbing to start.....steep aid climbing to finish.
We went up several 'normal' approach pitches to a big ledge and a pushing off point, if you will. The goal was a big fat thumb-like slab that makes up a buttress against the face. From the top of this you push up through thin nailing cracks and overhangs to the final headwall face crack.
Steve got the lead off of the ledge, a pitch that has now famously turned back a bunch of people. Amusingly, I've had several folks tell me about 'famous' Valley climbers who tried, but couldn't do, this pitch. Strikes me as a bit odd, since we didn't think too much of it at the time. I put in a single bolt as far up and left as I could and Steve then led, free-climbing, out left across the exposed face. He stopped to place a #1 Tri-cam in a mini pocket a ways out, this to be his last piece. Free climbing 'at my very limit' I recall him saying, he worked his way out and just BARELY got his hand on the edge of a handrail flake, with just enough postive slope to hang on, but not quite enough to fully commit to. I vividly recall him saying 'watch me good and keep me on just a tad of tension'. So, with this last move, about 90% free with a tad of tension, he finally committed to pulling up. The rest of the pitch went beautifully all free. Since then, several folks who know the famouls folks who have subsequently backed off have wondered about the 'secret' of how we did it, or whether it was fully aided with now invisible holds. Sorry folks....it went free except the tension on the last move. Steve, when pressed, did some amazing climbing. I've got the photos of him leading that pitch. Perhaps the most revealing thing about the folks who ask about 'how' we did is the presumption that a pair of 'unknown' climbers such as ourselves couldn't climb 'better' than a bunch of famous guys.
Anyway....the pitch afterwards is beyond description. A 160 foot perfect handcrack leading all the way to the ledge at the top of the flake. Among the very best single pitches in the park this one, in my humble opinion. We fixed to this point at the top of the buttress. I recall having a long discussion amongst ourselves to decide if we should haul gear and bivy up there, or simply go for it.
We decided to go for it.
The next morning broke EARLY and we jugged most of the way up to the ledge before real daylight. The pitch off the buttress was steep and thin and, unluckily for Steve, quite loose in places. We suggested subsequent parties NOT climb that lead off pitch but cleaner one to the left. Lucky me, I got the next headwall pitch. A THIN nailing crack through a double overhang onto an overhanging knifeblade crack up the headwall. I recall trying to figure out how to get through the overhangs. I pounded a baby angle vertically into nothing of a crack and stood on it. The first few times it ripped immediately, but I was anticipating this. The next time it seemed, somehow, to hold....so I just went for it. A series of tied-off knifeblades, maybe a RURP, and a lost arrow or two later I was full committed to the overhanging headwall. No bolts. I was a bit freaked, because the crack wasn't much. After getting a respectable committed distance up onto the heart of this thing I desperately sought out a natural belay. No such luck. I 'resorted' to placing a single bolt for the belay anchor and two more or less pretty good pieces in the crack. That was it.
Steve was both as psyched and intimidated as I. We had NO bivy gear, no really warm clothes (hats), no real food or water, and being late in the fall we were really running out of time because of the full-on aid. From the fully hanging belay (Shield style) I encouraged Steve to get his ass up as fast and safely as possible. It was one more full pitch to the exit face pitch above. Slowly and steadily, with no bolts, I recall him moving upwards on micro-nuts, pins, etc. It was tedious and scary for him. He got within several moves of the final roof and was inching along. I was psyched because be was SURELY going to make it and we were going to get off just in time for darkness.
Then.....it happened. A soundless releasing off weight and Steve came flying off zipping everything below him. My eyes just about popped out of my head. Steve took a 40 foot screamer.....not only zippering out all of his prior work....but erasing our precious time to get off. He came to a stop and looked up and said 'WHAT IS HOLDING ME?' He couldn't believe he didn't fall to the belay. Turns out this 6 foot 4 inch 190 pound guy had zippered and was caught on a #1 brass nut TURNED SIDEWAYS in a shallow seam!!!!!!!!!!! He was speechless, and I had nothing to add.
I was now convinced we were going to bivy on the overhanging face in the dark with no gear. Had never done THAT before and wasn't looking forward to it. I said something to the effect that he had better climb inspired, and he did. He whizzed back up through the difficult part, slammed in a bolt to avoid the zipper fiasco and made it up through the final overhang. By the time I got to lead the exit pitch is was so dark I could hardly see the holds on the rock face. I was DESPERATE to get off. But no place to belay, no ledges, no friendly climbing, just impending darkness and scary run-out 5.8 face climbing. Through some immemorable primeival drive I found a way up and off the route. I COULD NOT BELIEVE IT. We were looking at a hanging gearless bivy and we had JUST squeaked off of the route.
We had one headlamp with weak batteries, but we were ECSTATIC to be off the headwall and onto the very steep and treacherous descent. Amazingly, however, we rapped multiple sets of bushes down steep slabs and soon found ourselves above the vertical final gulley raps. One or two of these later and, still unbelievable to me, we were STANDING on a WALKOFF slope down to the road. I could not and still do not believe that we got away with that one.
An hour later we were drinking multiple pitchers in the Bit.
Next.....Wages of Sin
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dangle
Mar 1, 2005, 7:07 PM
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Well, I was wondering if the Terrier ran off, but the old dog has picked up BS's technique of leaving out key details like;
Why did I have to buy a rollei B35 a month after Moonlight?
How many .75 friends did we have?
How many hammer blows did I use to place pins?
On Spaceshot how far had I run it out backcleaning the friends before using the rest of the rack?
Who did Zion's first HAMMERLESS wall 7 months later?
Does the Terrier still feel that it is ethical to alter an aid route with every ascent and devil take the hindmost?
And why wouldn't he know the sizes of the tools he knows so well?
Gary, nice to hear from you. Watch those rap jams.
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 12:09 AM
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In reply to: Who did Zion's first HAMMERLESS wall 7 months later?
Sorry....but let's be careful with our terminology.
You may have done the first wall hammerless, but the route you put up did not get put up without a hammer. So, it is a misnomer to call it a hammerless route, but rather a route that has been 'made' (e.g. created) to go hammerless. Huge difference, that.
To my knowledge, the first long route to be put up with ZERO bolts, ZERO pitons, ZERO drilling, without a hammer being used was the route 'Freezer Burn' that I put up in Pine Creek. Unfortunately, Mugs Stumps retrobolted this very route (without my permission I might add) to free the only 20 feet of aid on the climb. That was a truly 'hammerless' route.
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 12:10 AM
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Oh yeah.....If someone knows of another long Zion route that went up without a hammer being used in any manner, I will stand corrected.
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bsmoot
Mar 2, 2005, 1:55 AM
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pm to Gary - Moderator please delete.
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 2:22 AM
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In reply to: Why did I have to buy a rollei B35 a month after Moonlight? How many .75 friends did we have? How many hammer blows did I use to place pins? On Spaceshot how far had I run it out backcleaning the friends before using the rest of the rack? Who did Zion's first HAMMERLESS wall 7 months later? Does the Terrier still feel that it is ethical to alter an aid route with every ascent and devil take the hindmost? And why wouldn't he know the sizes of the tools he knows so well?
You are such a smart guy Dangle that I cannot truly believe you wish to open THESE Pandora's boxes to a full and open discussion?
I will pass on commentary unless you really want it (I know, I know...how can he resist?).
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dangle
Mar 2, 2005, 2:22 AM
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So now you claim to have put up Zion's first hammerless wall.
Bullshit.
First I never said that I put up a wall, but I did do one hammerless.
That means WITHOUT EVEN CARRYING ONE. Thats where your "huge difference" is. I don't think you put up Free or Burn without CARRYING a hammer. It just turned out not to require them. Do you know of any major new Zion route attempted without CARRYING a hammer?
How about answering that along with the other five questions?
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golsen
Mar 2, 2005, 3:14 AM
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Alas,
Finally read the whole thing.
Glad I climbed in remote places so there arent more "5.11 Slab Climber stories"....One of the advantages to thrashing by yourself and a blood sworn partner. I do think Brian got that story correct except for the part about me going back.
The stories are amazing....priceless....Dave, thanks for the Lost in Transit story....A climb I have dreamed of but not gotten off my ass to attempt. I wish I would have met you back then. I almost quit school to be a climbing bum....shoulda woulda coulda....
Ron, how are you doing? Some of the past threads show that there was a lack of a climbing community. While I applaud your climbing efforts I also must say that I must have been a stubborn and/or stupid guy to come back to Zion after you watched every painfully slow placement I made on the first pitch of Cerberus. It is only my opinion, but maybe most climbers would have given up after that and written the place off? Do you think your "welcoming" new Zion wannabe climbers may have had any reason for the lack of a climbing community? Damn, I think I found another reason to thank you! Maybe you don't see it this way, but some of your actions were a bit , uhhh, shall we say, bizarre?
Nobody should take this as a personnel attack, I am sure it is only a case of personalities not getting along with eachother. On the positive side, I did climb with Ron in Snow Canyon one day. I even have a picture of you if I can have your persmission to post it?
Brian Smoot, I laughed at your story. It is always good to hear anothers perspective on this and I probably did appear to be kind of bold and brash, but what better way to learn than to go for it! By the way, PM me with your address. I have something of yours (my very very bad!) I have felt guilty about and need to return it.
Guys, keep the stories coming. They are priceless....A lot better than that edited crap you get in the mags. Since we can't be sitting around a campfire together (someone might kill someone) this is about as good a place as any. Before I read this I thought this internet stuff was for people that should be out climbing or have something better to do (?)....
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chairmanmeow
Mar 2, 2005, 4:37 AM
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In reply to: Before I read this I thought this internet stuff was for people that should be out climbing or have something better to do...
You were right. :P
In reply to: Since we can't be sitting around a campfire together (someone might kill someone) this is about as good a place as any.
Right again. :tinfoilhat:
In reply to: ...some of your actions were a bit , uhhh, shall we say, bizarre?
I get the impression there's a story or two behind this statement. The forum demands stories! :D
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chairmanmeow
Mar 2, 2005, 4:42 AM
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Oh, and Ron, does the route count as hammerless if the FAist carries hammer down? :P
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 5:22 AM
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Once again, Dangle takes a simple and unambiguous declarative statement and, through his wizardry, turns it into conspiracy breeding ground. (remember folks...now I'll be accused of saying something I didn't)
Notice, I did exactly what I said I did....no drilling, used no pitons, used no bolts. I then, in parentheses, put the word 'hamerless' knowing Dangle's passion for word games, indicating that hammerless would logically relate to NOT using a hammer.
So now Dangle trapped himself in the greatest illogical statement of all. First HE claimed to have 'done' the first hammerless wall,
In reply to: Who did Zion's first HAMMERLESS wall
(answer...himself)
and now he claims that to have done a new route hammerless means you don't even have a hammer in your pack. That would logically lead me to conclude that doing a 'hammerless' ascent is not actually hammerless if you have a hammer in your pack. (If not, wherefore the difference???)
So...by simple logical conclusion....Dangle has never put up a hammerless wall, ever, he has only made hammerless ascents possible by (what else) using a hammer.
I don't see any way around that logic.
You said it, I didn't
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dangle
Mar 2, 2005, 6:04 AM
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For the intellectually challenged the difference is this; clean is good but hammerless shows greater commitment.
So yes it is not a hammerless ascent if your "courage" is in your rucksack to paraphrase someone I'll see again this month. It is merely clean.
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 6:16 AM
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Tried to give you an out Dangle, but you wouldn't take it, so I'll answer and ask questions of my own:
In reply to: Why did I have to buy a rollei B35 a month after Moonlight?
Sadly, I'll try and answer this one. Josh Leiberman, who I started Moonlight (with ZERO help from Dangle) with wrote me that he recalled some incident about a camera. Since I don't remember dropping anyone's (obviously your) camera, it likely means Josh dropped your camera and you undoubtedly berated him so badly he declined to want to have anything to do with you again, period. (How funny and hipocritical then Brian's tale of you threatening to throw his camera off Monkeyfinger).
True to your style, you're more concerned about your camera....as evidenced by your own question. What does the fact that he might have dropped your camera have anything to do with anything? Answer: nothing.
(please....give me harder questions!)
In reply to: How many .75 friends did we have?
Predictably, the answer to this is only a few posts back, so one can only conclude you enjoy rhetorical devices.
The question isn't whether we had Friends, the question is how quickly one starts pounding pitons. You know the answer to that, as do I.
In reply to: How many hammer blows did I use to place pins?
The distinction is not in how many blows, but whether pins are used at all. As to how many blows, I'll refer readers back to Brian's story of climbing Monkeyfinger with you.
In reply to: On Spaceshot how far had I run it out backcleaning the friends before using the rest of the rack?
Compared to how far I was running it out WITHOUT using pins......not far at all. In fact, that is why I gave you so much shit.
In reply to: And why wouldn't he know the sizes of the tools he knows so well?
Talk about a soft pitch....I was, and am, proud of the fact I don't know sizes above baby angles. I don't want to be competent at nailing cracks that can be readily nutted and/or cammed. Never pretended to know and really don't care. (Actually, I do, but don't want to admit it).
In reply to: Does the Terrier still feel that it is ethical to alter an aid route with every ascent and devil take the hindmost?
I addressed this in great detail earlier in this thread. No need for futher comment.
And again, the most important unresolved issue, is how can a guy who put up Climb Against Nature make ANY claim to being holier-than-thou about protecting rock. I am sympathetic to your purported desire to 'save' the rock, but your conflicted actions speak more loudly.
My advice: rest on the laurels of the things I give you credit for...
-good eye for new lines
-good judgement as to quality of line and rock
-getting there first.....at least a lot of the time
-persistence
-patience in getting up
-historical perspective
-seeing opportunities others didn't
-good route names
-long reach on bolt ladders
-will go down in history as a pioneer of many good to great Zion routes
Why don't you leave it at that and drop the pretense of the rest? (forgetting, of course, our take for the profits on this thread)
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 6:26 AM
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In reply to: For the intellectually challenged the difference is this; clean is good but hammerless shows greater commitment. So yes it is not a hammerless ascent if your "courage" is in your rucksack to paraphrase someone I'll see again this month. It is merely clean.
Completely agree with you: Drilling down routes for the masses takes most of the courage and commitment out of a route.
Well said.
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golsen
Mar 2, 2005, 6:33 AM
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You guys have been doing a great job with the stories…….
And D and R have probably shed some of their animosity (or is there still more to come?).......
Now what about that DRILLING/chipping? It is a fact that there were holes drilled in Southern Utah rock to aid in “free” climbing them. If drilling bolts is dirty work (to some) then drilling holds is what? Besides capturing Zion History, this is the most significant item brought up here in this thread.
Does anybody out there know something about that stuff?
Mormons call this repentance. I hear its suppose to cleanse the spirit sort of thing. But the big thing is, it may even provide some guidance to younger climbers that don’t understand the significance of chipping into real rock. This may be a good chance to preserve and/or set straight ethical considerations that have more of an impact than hammerless, or courage in a rucksack sort of stuff.
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bsmoot
Mar 2, 2005, 6:41 AM
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Gary,
Sorry, but I like my version of the story better! I do stand corrected about your returning to Zion. At the time, I asked you about your adventures on the north face of Mt. Hooker in the Winds. In your usual unassuming & humble way, you never mentioned anything about your recent Zion activities...anyway, thanks for being such a good sport!
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 6:42 AM
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Amen!!!
I've been trying to spur SOMEONE to take this up....but no one will much touch this issue.
Good job Gosen.
I am still waiting for the Climb Against Nature first ascent story...
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golsen
Mar 2, 2005, 6:57 AM
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Brian,
your tips were most important on a number of climbs. I especially like one that was sort of like this, "aid climbing is really all about having the guts to stand up." Helped me out a number of times when I didnt want to.....
Hope we can get together sometime....Where is Mr. Ellison. He had some of the best stories ever. Something about he and dangle 4-wheeling up to a place they werent supposed to?
It would be great to see some of yours and Les' stories about the Wasatch....
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dmckj
Mar 2, 2005, 6:35 PM
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Let's get back in focus on Golsen's comment
In reply to: Now what about that DRILLING/chipping? It is a fact that there were holes drilled in Southern Utah rock to aid in “free” climbing them. If drilling bolts is dirty work (to some) then drilling holds is what? Besides capturing Zion History, this is the most significant item brought up here in this thread. Does anybody out there know something about that stuff?
I do, and have repeatedly brought it up.
Would Dangle care to boldly defend his active role in this?
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brianinslc
Mar 2, 2005, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: In 1985 Guy Toombes and I tried the Lowe Route on the N. Face of Angels Landing. The info I had gave a rating of 5.7 A2. We were climbing it too slowly and bailed. I think Conrad climbed it twice before Guy and I made it back the following year. It took us three days on what I think was the 5th ascent. Needless to say when I met Jeff at a slideshow I asked him about the sandbag rating and he laughed and said it was a big pile of sand anyway. Guy thought the route was harder then the Nose. For me, it still remains a great adventure on a fairly untouched route. I can’t believe Jeff did the first ascent of the route as a teenager. Very impressive.
Wow...neat. I have Guy's route topo from that climb... He always thought you and he had the first "non-Lowe" ascent of the route and had marked Conrad's and James' high point, even. But, James always claimed that they did it prior to you all. Any idear the exact date of the ascent?
I miss climbing with Guy...
Jeff was psyched to hear about Mike's free variation ascent of the "Lowe" route (always a moment of awkwardness when you're talking to a Lowe about "the Lowe route", ha ha). Maybe Mike can add some of his own Zion history to this thread about that ascent. Come on, man, make my TCU famous...
Good stuff, thanks!
-Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
Mar 2, 2005, 11:04 PM
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In reply to: So yes it is not a hammerless ascent if your "courage" is in your rucksack to paraphrase someone I'll see again this month. It is merely clean.
Did he reschedule? Thought he bailed in protest over US travel policy?
Child is the keynote speaker for saturday night, now.
Rumor has it that Reinhold has softened on his bolt stance anyhow...
Brian in SLC
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theledge
Mar 3, 2005, 12:13 AM
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I just read the entire post. Longest time I have ever sat in front of a computer. six hours with a break for lunch, and two missed classes. Deffinately one of the most interesting reads I have had in a long time. great stories, and even though the BS got pretty thick I think it gave an interesting look into the minds of great climbers. This whole thread has made me look at my climbing partners closer (for both the good and the bad), it has also inspired me to talk my friend shaggy into taking me out for some Zion big wall. I wish I had seen this discussion at a bar/campfire even with the fisticuffs. I would love to have met everyone.
PS if this was dirrected as a film I would definately say it is Quintan Tarantinoes (sp) style.
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kpj240789
Mar 3, 2005, 1:37 AM
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[indigo] I will
not stop
making stupid
posts
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllaaaaaalllaaahhhhhh
blaaaaahhhhhaaaaallllaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh[/indigo]
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golsen
Mar 3, 2005, 4:01 AM
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Well, no more stories from the big dogs. (Come on you guys, I think you can give the animosity a break for a bit) And someone brought Guy’s name up again so I thought I would tell more about our early ascent of Angels Landing. Disclaimer #1: There wasn’t anything historical about this ascent other than a great adventure for Guy and me. This is a tribute to Guy Toombes, one of the greatest partners you could tie in with. Sadly, Guy was injured in a Sport Climbing accident that left him with some permanent health issues and sadder still, I haven’t kept up with him. Guy started climbing well, hell, I don’t even know when, but when I started in the 70’s he was already an experienced climber and had been a Guide in the Winds and Tetons. He was always very good at sharing his tales and he got me going on a couple climbs I would never had done if it weren’t for him. His tales of living in a teepee in Jackson Hole had me dreaming of the same.
As was stated earlier in this thread, hardly anyone climbed in Zions in the early 80’s. Personally, I had no interest in Yosemite at that time. I mean, why go fight the crowds (or that is what I heard) when you had huge walls that nobody was climbing? Enjoying the wilderness was something that got me started climbing and Zion was still wild. As a fledging wannabe wall climber the Lowe Route sounded perfect at 5.8 A2. How hard could that be?
As usual, my mouth got me started before thought. I saw Guy in the Tram line at the ‘Bird (1984?) We had never climbed with each other and I said, “hey lets do Angels Landing this summer”? Our original plan was to make one bivvy about 4 pitches up, then go for the top. Not a good plan for us on that route. The description we had was very vague and there was no Topo. We thought we spied where the Route left the big dihedral and returned right on the edge of the big arch about 2/3rds of the way up the face. Those first 4 pitches were fairly continuous at the grade and even though climbing in LCC had provided me with some wide crack experience it was way more difficult than either of us were expecting but the climbing is fun and the wall looming above still pulled us upward. On the third pitch I had a near death experience for both of us when I touched a big loose flake on the left side of the dihedral. About 5 ft tall and 8” thick the sucker moved with the slightest of touches. 5.8 A2? This wasn’t exactly the “S” crack in LCC which had been rated similarly in those days. We swapped leads and bivvied at the top of the fourth pitch. That is a pretty good ledge but something was living there and it sounded big. In the middle of the night it ate an apple and some other stuff. At the time it seemed more prudent to let him have his way with our food than scare it away.
The wall changes there to a very steep corner system. These pitches were definitely freeable and maybe somewhat friable but I was still a bit new to Indian Creek type cracks at that time so clean aid seemed prudent.
We moved pretty slow and late in the day we arrived at the base of the Traverse out to the knifeblade crack. This is a scary looking pitch with great exposure. You can’t really see where to go or what you are going for. Guy and I both knew our time was up. We figured we were about half way and both of us had obligations. I had set up a belay with Tri-cams and a Friend and I think there may have been a bolt there. I do remember telling Guy that we could pull the Friend but he was adamant that we leave it in place. It was anathema to me, those suckers were expensive. After gazing down the wall, and figuring that I worked at a climbing store I gave in. Good thing, as he was rapping off one of those shifty Tricams pulled and the Friend and bolt held.
We got busy and didn’t come back until the next summer. This time the theory was to plan for two Bivvies. I think it was a Jeff Lowe account that said there was a suitable Bivvy above the knifeblade pitch. This time, I was going through marriage troubles and climbing was the purest form of relief that I could have imagined. Isnt that the coolest thing? When you are up there the stuff that really matters isn’t any day to day garbage, troubles at work go away, what is important is how to climb safely. Climbing distills life down to the simplest components. On the bivvy ledge that night, I poured my guts out. Talk about putting a rope partner through torture. Poor Guy, he couldn’t get away if he wanted to. I connected with Guy then and him being several years older then me I felt a kind of a big brother relationship thing going. I felt a whole lot better the next morning and that night helped me make a key decision in my life a whole lot easier. (So if you want some cheap counseling, find the right partner and head to a wall…..Just don’t do that with Ron….Just kidding Ron, I had to throw that one in here for kicks!)
I had fixed the fifth pitch and I jugged up before the bag was packed. When I started hauling in the slack of the haul line the rope dislodged a couple water bottles. Shit! Guy didn’t say much, no comment about getting my shit together. It was obvious someone had done the route since we retreated. The booty was gone. I had heard later that it was Conrad and James (good job guys). The traverse and knifeblade pitch was Guy’s (fortunately, since it looked pretty damn scary). I posted a photo of him on this pitch - check out his pro a looped horn- that is clean pro, unless of course he peals).
After arriving on the “adequate” bivvy ledge, I was burnt and sorely disappointed. It is a "adequate" but not one you’d write home about. I fixed the next pitch which is a bolt ladder that by our description led to a “good crack”. It was good alright, good and scary. This pitch nears the top of the arch so you have a lot of air beneath you. Rapping back to the belay, I dangled out in space below the big arch in the N Face. My shirt got sucked into my rappel device and I was friggin stuck. Scared, spinning and pretty close to freaking out, I was able to free my shirt and Guy pulled me over to the belay.
Guy ended up sleeping on a ledge about 30 feet from mine. While not real smokers, Guy said it was a good thing to have on a wall. We had a smoke and enjoyed the gathering darkness. To avoid rolling off that ledge (its pretty small), I had wrapped some rope around me up to the belay. Every time I moved during the night, I reached up for the ropes to feel their assurance.
The next day went well despite a lack of water. I think it was June but that wall gets a lot of shade. I do remember one time near the top. We thought we were through all of the hard part when we ran into a pitch that was not straightforward. I was amped on summit fever and told Guy to climb right. In his typical calm form he told me I was crazy, and it looked 5.11. He was correct once again as he had been the whole climb. It was weird when we pulled over the top, no water for most of the day, my white T-shirt was black and red from sand and there were two crisp couples dressed in white tennis outfits…We were back to reality. Bummer. That night I had the worst nightmares of my life. Every time I reached for my ropes before rolling over, they were not there! Scared the bejesus out of me. The next morning, showered and eating a nice breakfast in Springdale, we were able to see the sun shining on those big walls. Every detail was so fine and clear. This was the first time I had experienced a natural high like that. (I have attempted to post some photos, a process harder than 5.8x by the way, but you'll have to excuse the quality.)
Guy, I hope someone in SLC tells you about this story. Take Care buddy!Jeff, if you are out there, awesome route!
Will the history makers of Zion's help mankind record the true history of Zion's climbing and throw in a piece? Hopefully, the animosity will rest in peace for a while....
Or will we hear about the modern refinements of route sculpting?
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dmckj
Mar 3, 2005, 6:08 AM
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Golsen.......good job on the story old chap!! You caught the flavor quite nicely.
Now, an unplanned story....... (don't worry folks, Drinkin Beer Are Ya is still coming....you see I'm under a contractual deal with Big Ed the moderator to crank out a required minimum number of posts so I can't use up all the best stuff up front)
Cowboy Bob Goes to Zion
Hugh O'neall was one of those guys who got started climbing too late in life. I met Hugh while I was living and climbing in Taos, New Mexico. I had the perfect life: beautiful girlfriend, great decent paying job, and some of the best undiscovered rock in the U.S. This included places like Questa Dome, Tres Piedras, and a fantasy ridge-line climb up to the 14,000 summit of Kit Carson peak. Then I lost my girlfriend AND the job and had to move from Taos.....oh, wait, this isn't that story.
O.K., back on theme. Hugh, a guy named Beau Hayworth, and I were out at Tres Piedras in the heydey of new routes. We had spotted this improbable line. My lead. All trad, steep face climbing, lots of chicken-heads that you ended up tying off as the only pro most of the way up. Once we got up we were looking for a name, and Hugh, the novice amongst us, came up with 'how about calling it Cowboy Bob's Chikenhead Delight?' Stupidest idea I had ever heard, but I liked it. It is now sort of a cult trad classic, but the name makes the route.
Anyway, I managed to con Hugh into joining me in Zion. He was great at the technical stuff, but lacked a good leading head, so I kind of figured I would put him through the shock therapy of putting up a new long route in Zion. (yeah, looking back on it, it was fairly sadistic). But Hugh was game.
I had a nice line picked out on perhaps the biggest of the three 'Towers of Fate' up Pine Creek (south face of East Temple). Off we went. Applying the standard fix-a-bunch-of-pitches-and-go-for-it technique we rigged about 3 full pitches, if I recall. Probably we had three ropes rigged, dropped the first, and continued up with 2 ropes. I don't much recall the pitches at this point, but I do recall leading up to this absolutely horrifying looking offwidth overhang and then, to my delight, finding such a bomber hex placement that the actual crux move (sandbag 5.10+ if I recall rating it) seemed almost mundane and anti-climactic after looking up at the hideous thing from the bottom.
We were a fair ways up at this point and had a pretty fair way to go. Once again, per usual, I felt that gut-level angst that we were going to find ourselves stuck in the dark in some place we didn't want to be. Hugh was no longer saying anything, a bad sign. I grabbed the lead for the rest of the route. Didn't seem too bad until only 2 pitches from the top (all free to this point). It was getting duskish at this time. A fairly trivial looking lead, less than vertical, turned out to be anything but. I was in atrocious free-climbing shape, and the climbing just got too hard, so I started aiding. Unfortunately, the reasonable aid and daylight were running out at the same time. Couldn't see anything I could do without drilling a bolt. But it was moderate angle. If I had the balls (which I was pretty much lacking) I could try a hard and irreversible mantle move. If I fell it would be a screamer. No time to drill a bolt. Pissed off at myself for being such a chiken-shit I decided, just this once, to push it. Got into the mantle and realized it was harder than I thought. No positive holds, nothing to grab above, just pure push down and get your foot up level with your hands before you keel over backwards. It was your worst nightmare....total sandy ball bearing white stuff.
Well, only for fear of the unintended bivy, I made the move without falling. Tying off a bush for a belay, we had only just a short 30 foot stretch to top out on the pillar. I was pretty jazzed because I KNEW it was only a simple walk-off, or careful traverse at worst, to the Great Arch trail. No problem.
DEAD WRONG! We summitted the spire, Hugh in a speechless stupor at this point, only to look down and see a full on vertical slot of about 80-90 foot depth and 30 feet wide separating us from the walk-off. In other words we were totally f$%&#ed. Not only that, but we had no time to do any complicated rappeling (sounds like the Lost in Transit story, que no?). Surrendering to the inevitable, I just started tying off any bush in sight and going straight down to the side of the route in some steep gulleys. No time to drill a single hole if we were to get off by dark.
Incredibly, bushes showed up at every ledge, taking us all the way into the final vertical fissures. At the last (I think) vertical rappel I could find not a single natural anchor. No time to drill, or maybe we didn't even have a drill (don't recall). Anyway, we didn't drill. The trick solution I found was to take a rounded rock, tie it off with a sling and jam it into the crack we had to go down. An 'original' nut a-la-Dresden (or wherever) it was. It worked, we got down in absolute dark, and were, per usual, drinking beer at the Bit and Spur not too long thereafter.
For the ridiculous and unforgiveable spanking I had unfairly levelled on my partner I decided to name it in his honor....ergo....
Cowboy Bob Goes to Zion
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golsen
Mar 3, 2005, 6:27 AM
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Thank you D. And good job yourself! I have heard about that route but not the story behind it. Glad you are sharing this stuff....I think it is pretty damn great that many of these routes are still probably pretty damn adventurous. Makes me want to get down that-a-way and see what I have left in me...
I think Dangle must have something more important going on....
The adventure of that stuff is truly incredible!.....AWESOME!
I for one hope not to many new and improved guides, especially Falcon come out on this place....I think it would be a shame to miss out on the topo search with the rangers...I assume that is where some of your topos are.
Have a good one!
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skinner
Mar 3, 2005, 12:28 PM
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In reply to: Then I lost my girlfriend AND the job and had to move from Taos.....oh, wait, this isn't that story.
You are right, that's actually a country song I think? :)
golsen and dmckj, awesome stories!
and dmjk, committing your self to the "irreversible mantle" with no idea what's above you, but a very clear idea of what's below you, ballsy shit for sure.
golsen, I looked at your photo's and the one of Guy on the third pitch.. I have always wanted to ask someone who has been there, but I heard that there is moss all over the place, that there are plenty of holds that will crumble when minimally weighted, that it is basically a runout and what protection there is poor.
Is this reality, Or creative writing in action?
Thanks again for the great stories guys!
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rockprodigy
Mar 3, 2005, 3:16 PM
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More photos Gary! It would be very interesting to see how much the Lowe Route has changed in 20 years.
Some more comments on that route which I pretty much have memorized foot-by-foot.
That 7th pitch traverse has a bolt on it, right past where Guy is in your photo. Was it there when you did it? Also, those cracks just before where Guy slung that horn will take some marginal cams, so that traverse is much more tame now...but it still scared the crap out of my wife, following it with approach shoes on.
In reply to: Those first 4 pitches were fairly continuous at the grade and even though climbing in LCC had provided me with some wide crack experience it was way more difficult than either of us were expecting but the climbing is fun and the wall looming above still pulled us upward. On the third pitch I had a near death experience for both of us when I touched a big loose flake on the left side of the dihedral. About 5 ft tall and 8” thick the sucker moved with the slightest of touches.
Yeah, those first four are a bit of an eye-opener. You can tell neither of the guidebook authors ever set foot on the route. Mossy/sandy slab(p1) to flaring chimneys(p2)...to runout face climbing around loose rock(p3 and 4). Oh yeah, that loose flake on pitch 3 is still there. It seems to be locked in place, but it's definitely move-able.
In reply to: The wall changes there (Pitch 5) to a very steep corner system. These pitches were definitely freeable and maybe somewhat friable but I was still a bit new to Indian Creek type cracks at that time so clean aid seemed prudent.
I'm not so sure. I rated the first pitch off the ledge at 12b (10+) R, with definite ledge fall potential at the start. Freeing that pitch in '85 with aid gear would have been impressive. The next pitch, up to the "flake belay" is pretty mellow now (10c), but without the pin scars that are there now and fixed gear, it would be much harder and quite frightening...those pitches are gorgeous though. The section from the flake belay to the start of the 7th pitch is pretty burly...as Brian's cam can attest to.
In reply to: We moved pretty slow and late in the day we arrived at the base of the Traverse out to the knifeblade crack.
It's hard to believe this was once a knifeblade crack. It's 2 and 3 Angle size now. That section of the wall has the softest rock on the entire wall, I know this because I replaced some belay bolts, and I drilled a 3.5" hole in about 5 minutes! I think that's why those pinscars are so big now. I think this sort of situation lends credibility to Ron's stance of "creating" routes that go clean by leaving fixed gear.
In reply to: The booty was gone. I had heard later that it was Conrad and James (good job guys).
There is still a good topo in the V-center written by Conrad. I don't know if it's from the '85/'86 time frame though. Did they add the rappels down the front side of the big tower? The second rap anchor off the big ledge (p4) is quite an eye-opener...and I had an epic of my own off of that one, I can recount later. I wanted to retro bolt that anchor, but never got around to it.
In reply to: After arriving on the “adequate” bivvy ledge, I was burnt and sorely disappointed. It is a "adequate" but not one you’d write home about.
I think "adequate" is a good description. It's reminiscent of Long Ledge on the Salathe, but terraced, and not as long...I spent a lot of time there working the free variation.
In reply to: This pitch nears the top of the arch so you have a lot of air beneath you. Rapping back to the belay, I dangled out in space below the big arch in the N Face.
This is very true! That pitch has to be one of the most exposed in Zion. It's similar to the pitch off of Earth Orbit, except that the gear is much more sketchy and the roof is directly under your heals, not 30 feet down. After a tip from Bsmoot, I rapped off of there to inspect the bolt ladder for free climbing on a windy day...I almost never came back after that experience.
In reply to: I do remember one time near the top. We thought we were through all of the hard part when we ran into a pitch that was not straightforward.
True, again. The route doesn't let up until you are on the summit! You guys may have been better off sans topo. When we did it the first time, I was using the McAfee topo, and he shows the route ending after pitch 8: ha-freaking-ha!! Later, I was perusing the topos in the V-center and I discovered that he had just lifted the topo directly from there, but he didn't see the last FOUR pitches that were crammed in on a corner of the page. There is a lot of suffering contained in those 4 pitches! It would be possible to do a face climbing variation at the top, which would be really nice, but such a variation doesn't exist at this time.
What a great route!
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no_one
Mar 4, 2005, 3:16 AM
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Great stories guys, keep em coming!
In reply to: golsen said, I for one hope not to many new and improved guides, especially Falcon come out on this place....I think it would be a shame to miss out on the topo search with the rangers...I assume that is where some of your topos are.
Rumor has it that there is a new guide book in progress. I don't personaly know the guy that's putting it together, but I know he knows Zion very well and I've heard he's focusing more on routes that aren't in other books. I also know that he is interested in route discriptions/beta on new or unpublished lines. I'm not interested in starting a bash session about this guy, so I'll let someone else disclose his name, but if you do have beta for him, pm me and i'll try to get you in contact with him. I sure he will do a better job than Alex McAfee... what a waste of paper that is!
Ron, where'd ya go? We need more stories from you too! Hey and about that movie you mentioned, what night is good for you? Maybe friday? Saturday night, Justin, Grizz and I are going backpacking to a secret indian camp, so those nights won't work!
Again, Dave, Ron, golsen, and the others that have put their two cents in; thanks, keep em comeing!
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no_one
Mar 4, 2005, 3:23 AM
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Great stories guys, keep em coming!
In reply to: golsen said... I for one hope not to many new and improved guides, especially Falcon come out on this place....I think it would be a shame to miss out on the topo search with the rangers...I assume that is where some of your topos are.
Rumor has it that there is a new guide book in progress. I don't personaly know the guy that's putting it together, but I know he knows Zion very well and I've heard he's focusing more on routes that aren't in other books. I also know that he is interested in route discriptions/beta on new or unpublished lines. I'm not interested in starting a bash session about this guy, so I'll let someone else disclose his name, but if you do have beta for him, pm me and i'll try to get you in contact with him. I sure he will do a better job than Alex McAfee... what a waste of paper that is!
Ron, where'd ya go? We need more stories from you too! Hey and about that movie you mentioned, what night is good for you? Maybe friday? Saturday night, Justin, Grizz and I are going backpacking to a secret indian camp, so those nights won't work!
Again, Dave, Ron, golsen, and the others that have put their two cents in; thanks, keep em comeing!
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no_one
Mar 4, 2005, 3:24 AM
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oops!! Sorry
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dangle
Mar 4, 2005, 2:36 PM
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Perhaps some haven't noticed.
There's been some good weather to actually GO climbing.
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golsen
Mar 4, 2005, 8:01 PM
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Rockprodigy, thanks, I will attempt to post some more pics. Damn fine job by the way, you freeing it. I would really be interested to find out how you got past the bolt ladder part of the Lowe Route. In terms of the pitch off of the ledge, you will note that I said I thought it could go free which is a damn big difference than saying I thought I could free it. At the time I was envisioning someone like Hong doing it. But it waited for someone who had the drive and ambition to get up there. If I remember correctly, the initial part of that pitch was very sketchy and then it turned into a good crack.
Dangle, time to take a rest day and chronicle your exploits...
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deuce4
Mar 8, 2005, 4:22 PM
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hello all
just back from a two week trip to Easter Island in the Pacific and Machu Picchu in Peru--awesome places, the rockwork of the ancient ones really is impressive, makes the engineering task of climbing rocks seem trivial in comparison. How did those people move those 40 ton blocks and sculptures?
Respectively, I must say I am a bit baffled about the continued references and debate to my old history article. No longer considering myself an authority of the Zion history (it has been a while since I was in the climbing fray), I can't really revise what my old self wrote in the early 90's without a study of my old topo collections and notes, which are packed away deep in some storage boxes. I would have expected by now someone else to have compiled a more complete and definitive history that would be enjoyable reading to all, and which I would be happy to defer to in place of my Bjornstadt brief history piece. Seems like it would be a better use of time than to analyze the old stuff. Plus there is a lot more history to Zion than just the 70's and 80's, though that was truly a boon time.
Enjoyed the stories and notes about the rock work in Zion, thanks!
adios, amigos and amigas!
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chirp
Mar 16, 2005, 4:04 AM
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Better late than never.
Sorry for dragging this back up but I missed any serious history on the Kolob district.
I was active there in the mid 80's, working as a seasonal ranger and exploring and ogling all the awesome territory of the Kolob finger Canyons.
I enjoyed reading the old route reports in the "Black Book", especially the "ancient" ones from Forrest and March regarding their bold forays into the then obscure "fingers".
In my seasonal tenure there 1985-1989, I focussed on short route potential and canyoneering. But I was well aware of those that came before and the remnants they left behind. Some key moments:
Our ascent of the free version of "Last Rites", found a 2" angle lying in the dirt at the top.
An old and thrashed chouinard hammer in bleached out flood debris below Paria Point. (north face)
Star dryvins, ratty slings, and a biner etched with the name "Trout" on the ridge of Beatty Point. ( Ken Trout I am guessing )
A cairn and more star dryvins at the top of "Rooster Pinnacle".
Who climbed here, I have heard rumors and had the chance to meet several, including a visit by Forrest and March to Kolob where I was stoked to have someone stop by actually interested in climbing...little did I realize till too late who they were.
Art Wiggins and Harvey Miller, doing the FIRST recon of what is now Wind, Sand, and Stars.
Even several interactions with Dangle...some tense ( Meeting him and his mule below Timbertop) and some fun, especially getting a photo of him on top of a Garbage Dumpster with a CrowBar.
I feel fortunate to have been able to spend several years cruising in the kolob, savoring its peace before the popularity boom. I remember looking up at the virgin wall of Namaste/Huecos Rancheros and wistfully thinking "someday" there might be routes there.
My most recent trips up to Kolob in the late 90's have left me with a bit of a bitter taste, ropes abandoned and swinging, short routes with a bunch of ugly fixed gear that make major visual impact, all in the name of "getting a first", as well as graffiti and trash.
I would love to hear some stories of the pre "modern" explorers, those that came and left in a vacuum, those with respect.
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rockprodigy
Mar 17, 2005, 9:45 PM
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Ok, it's time to breathe some new life into this thread.
A few people have asked for the story of the free ascent of the Lowe Route from last fall. I'll give you the first installment, and if there is interest I'll keep it going....
“How is it going up there?” Is the rhetorical question I get from Ben, my skeptical belayer. His precise inflection indicates that he knows the answer. A long pause results as I face facts: This pitch, these 10 measly feet, simply will not go.
“Uh, it’s not looking good. It’s too steep, and the holds are just too far apart.” I’m severely disappointed, but I don’t have time to dwell on it now. We’re about 1000’ off the deck with another 500’ to go to top out on the Lowe Route, on the N Face of Angel’s Landing, and the hour is getting late. We punch it for the top, freeing what we can, and aiding the rest, and top out just as it’s getting dark. On the summit, Ben consoles me:
“You know, Mike, I wasn’t too psyched for more belay duty on this thing anyway…so to be honest, I’m not too disappointed that it won’t go”.
“Thanks…thanks a lot.” It’s just the tact-less type of consolation that I would expect from my longtime friend. Ben and I have known each other since we were about 12 years old. We learned to climb together, so we’re past the point of polite conversation. Nevertheless, his assessment is too frank for me right now, as I try to hang on to a sliver of hope that I will find a way to make it go. My years of reading mountaineering literature have turned me into a hopeless optimist. In all the classic tales, the brave protagonists always find a way to make it go. Of course, the unsuccessful protagonists don’t get their stories published, so we rarely read about failures.
As we scurry down the trail in the dark I propose possible solutions while Ben kindly shoots them down.
“The Hubers used a man-powered rappel, how about a man-powered pendulum?”
“Pendulum to where? There’s nowhere to go.”
“OK, how about a shoulder stand?”
“That would be aid climbing, and besides, who are you going to get to dangle 1000’ off the deck off of those crappy holds belayed by those rusty quarter-inchers? You can count me out.” I decided it would be better to keep my ideas to myself.
My goal, or should I say, my pipe-dream is to free the North Face of Angels Landing in Zion, UT. Despite being the most obvious climbing feature in the Canyon, it had so far remained as the exclusive territory of the aid climber. This was my third recon trip, and it was going well until I hit the bolt ladder on pitch 8. A few weeks before I had rapped down to inspect the upper half of the route, and although I knew the bolt ladder would be hard, I thought it would go, at least there were holds. I was wrong. I was certain that I could free everything but the 10 feet of that bolt ladder; I was instantly enlightened about the frustration of big wall free climbing. You can free 1490’, but if you don’t get those last 10’, you have failed.
I first started thinking about this project last spring. I was driving home solo to Utah after a long trip to the Valley which allowed a lot of time for personal reflection. I had a great trip, met some cool people and reunited with old friends. My twin brother, Mark, and I had just made an all free ascent of El Cap and I had managed to avoid falling on any of the pitches. I didn’t think of myself as an elite climber, but after my unexpected success on Freerider, I decided that maybe I do have an aptitude for this type of climbing. For some reason, the further I am from the ground, the more easily the moves seem to come to me…at least that explains my complete ineptitude at bouldering.
While in the Valley, I was impressed by the amount of energy there is for free climbing. Prior to this trip I had formed the opinion that the Valley scene stifles progress by ostracizing people with a different vision of the future. This latest trip really opened my eyes to the feverish pace of progress in the Valley. There are a lot of very strong climbers, locals and visitors pushing the limits on climbs all over the valley. Nearly every day I could walk through El Cap meadow and hear about people making progress on various projects throughout the park. I wanted to be a part of that. Because I couldn’t bring myself to the Valley every weekend, I decided to try to bring that atmosphere to Zion.
Zion is ripe for a free climbing revolution. Guys like Doug Heinrich have been trying to motivate people towards that end for some time now, but it’s just now starting to catch on. When my brother Mark and I freed Moonlight a few years ago, there wasn’t a lick of chalk on it, now the crux pitch is perma-chalked. Nevertheless, the route still gets more aid traffic than anything.
Immediately upon my return from Yosemite, I started researching possible routes in Zion. I contacted Brian Smoot, whom I had previously sparred with on the internet. I knew he was a long-time Zion climber and he would have some great ideas. He sent me a great list of potential routes, but I was instantly drawn to the Lowe Route on Angel’s Landing, and have been obsessed with the line ever since....
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brianinslc
Mar 17, 2005, 9:57 PM
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Prod prod poke...
Go....more...
-Brian in SLC
ps: weave into the story my TCU, if you would...ha ha...just kiddin'. I'm over it. The thing won't even talk to me anymore. Just sits there, all smug, as if to say, "all you ever used me for was aid climbing". Yeah, I used to think it looked cool on my rack, but now, maybe aliens aren't so bad. Nah...
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rockprodigy
Mar 17, 2005, 11:12 PM
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Oh, don't worry, it'll show up in chapter 3...if we make it that far.
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skinner
Mar 19, 2005, 2:20 PM
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Ok.. you've go my attention.. the free ascent of the Lowe Route or anything on Angels Landing for that matter :shock:
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golsen
Mar 23, 2005, 6:46 PM
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Rockprodigy...MORE. I will try and get around to scanning some more old pics of the route.
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rockprodigy
Mar 25, 2005, 5:30 PM
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OK, here's Chapter 2. This might be the last part I post, if It's just the 3 of you who care, I'll e-mail the rest to you.
They say “time heals all wounds”…I don’t have much experience with that, but one thing I do know is that time downrates all cruxes. The further you are from your project, the easier you remember those moves being, and it didn’t take long after that initial recon before I had convinced myself the Lowe Route was worth another shot. Convincing a belayer?...now that’s another thing.
Within two weeks I was back in the Park, hoping to give it another try. I had made plans to meet up with Brian Smoot, and hopefully meet the prolific Dave Jones, but it didn’t come to pass. The first day we were there it was raining. I didn’t know it at the time, but this was heavey-handed foreshadowing of things to come. We were unable to get on the wall, but that wasn’t the point, I just needed to have a look. From the covered bus stop at Big Bend, I scoured the face with my high powered spotting scope and identified enough features to motivate me to rap in from the summit a second time.
The rest of the weekend was spent enjoying the solitude of Zion in the rain. At one point we decided it would be fun to try to hike to the south side of the Great White Thrown cross-country from the Mt. Carmel highway. We got cliffed out and didn’t make it to the Thrown, but we did stumble upon a group of desert bighorn sheep that made the weekend worthwhile. Spotting these creatures in the wild is a rare treat because of their keen eye sight. They usually see you well before you see them. In this case, I think they did see us first, but when they continued up the ridge to evade us, they got cliffed out before we did and were forced to face their pursuers.
The next weekend I was back, and forced to sit out yet another day in the rain. Fortunately the excellent sports climbing in nearby St. George had been spared the moisture, and I was able to climb something. That Sunday, my wife, Janelle, and I hiked up Angel’s Landing with several hundred feet of rope. We rapped down about 700 feet to the ledge at the base of the bolt ladder. I had conceived of some other options for climbing the bolted arête, and I wanted to try them with a belayer, if it didn’t work out, I would check out those features I had spotted through my scope. Once again, the arête didn’t work out. It was steeper than I had remembered, and the nearby pinscars were unusable. I gave up on the original route, and decided to focus on those features that dotted the smooth face left of the aid route.
Inspecting a face on rappel for free climbing is a risky proposition. I had done it countless times for the sport routes I had put up, and I knew that there was a very fine line between climbable and impossible. Nevertheless, I thought I saw enough there to warrant putting in the bolts to protect the moves. I put in 9 bolts that day to protect the first pitch of the variation. After two more separate trips spread out over 3 weeks due to the non-stop rain, I finally had all 15 protection bolts in, and 5 belay bolts. The route was finally ready for an attempt....
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blowboarder
Mar 25, 2005, 5:40 PM
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Hey, if you don't finish the story include me on the email list for the conclusion.
I hate reading something in sections and not getting the finale. :lol:
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zozo
Mar 25, 2005, 5:46 PM
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No Mike post it! I bet alot are reading it. If not PM the rest to me as well, just getting to the good part.
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rockprodigy
Mar 25, 2005, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: I hate reading something in sections and not getting the finale. :lol:
Yeah that sucks, you know what else sucks? writing a huge long story in one sitting. If there is enough demand, I'll post chapter 3 today before I leave for Moab (Jeep jambore baby!!! ExXXtreme, to the MaXXXX!!!)
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atg200
Mar 25, 2005, 6:38 PM
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mike, i think all of us are really enjoying this and want to hear the rest of the story - we just don't want to clutter up the thread. please post the rest of it!
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epic_ed
Mar 25, 2005, 6:48 PM
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Seriously. There's more to be told! Looking forward to it when you get the chance.
Ed
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ambler
Mar 25, 2005, 7:02 PM
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Another vote for more stories! This is already the best Internet-climbing thread I've seen.
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clmbr121
Mar 25, 2005, 8:41 PM
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"Post! Post! Post!" they chanted.
And where is Dave's long-teased beer story...
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chronicle
Mar 25, 2005, 9:01 PM
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I've given more trophies in this thread than all others combined. Keep em coming.
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rockprodigy
Mar 25, 2005, 9:07 PM
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Chapter 3: Where are you Brian?, this is your 15 minutes....
On the 21st of November, Janelle and I crossed the frigid Virgin River and approached Angel’s Landing. OK, I have to be honest…it wasn’t that frigid. The day before, while killing time in Hurricane (pronounced “herkin” by the local intelligentsia) I stumbled upon some cheap hip waders in the Ace Hardware store. For under $30 you too can cross the Virgin in winter in total comfort! We were at the base of the wall by about 8:00am, and started climbing despite the frigid temps. The predicted high for that day was in the low 50’s – barely warm enough for the hard climbing that lay ahead on this north facing wall. At this hour, however, the mercury was hovering in the low 30’s, and the grass on the approach was still frosty. Fortunately the first four pitches are mellow, and climbing them in this cold weather was manageable.
The first pitch (5.9) climbs a low-angle groove formed by terrible rock and covered in moss…pretty much par for the course in Zion. The protection is seldom and sandy, but I had climbed it twice before and knew what to expect. Pitch two, also 5.9, starts off in an intimidating flaring groove reminiscent of the Poseidon adventure on the Lighthouse tower in Moab. Fortunately, the walls are more featured and the pitch can be climbed with no groveling whatsoever by stemming against the walls of the tight corner. If it is done this way, it is actually quite enjoyable climbing. The next real challenge is pitch 4 which wanders in and out of corners and arêtes to gain the bivy ledge. At one point, a horrible looking off-width is encountered, but it too can be bypassed by face climbing and stemming over it.
Once on the bivy ledge, the business begins. Pitch 5 is the first 5.12 pitch, and I had hoped to reach it right about the time the temperature was rising. No dice. When we arrived there at about 10:00, my thermometer showed 40 degrees. We hung out for about 45 minutes and then I started up the steep corner. Pitch 5 is a spectacular pitch. It starts out with delicate stemming up a loose chimney feature. Your left leg is stemming against a huge detached flake, while your right leg and hands are carefully picking their way through an overhanging jungle of loose blocks. Fortunately the climbing in this section is only about 5.10+, but the blocky ledge below you keeps your attention. This section is probably the most dangerous portion of the route to aid, where a serious ledge fall is quite possible
About 30’ up, the rock improves dramatically at a good rest. Just above is the crux move which involves entering a steep, right facing corner. An old knifeblade piton is wedged in the crack at the start of the corner. It sticks out 2 inches, and is bent over 90 degrees such that the eye, which should be level with the horizon, is pointing straight down. I clipped this piece for effect, and backed it up with a tcu lower down. I hadn’t redpointed this pitch before, so I was nervous about it, but on my recon almost two months before, I had worked out the moves. Entering the corner is the crux of the pitch, and it is made possible by some “thank god” edges on the face. I cranked out the bouldery moves, paused to place a tcu in the crack and pressed on to a good rest. The rest of the pitch involves enjoyable stemming and crack climbing up an Indian Creek-esque corner. I arrived at the belay well pumped and happy to make the redpoint. The temperature turned out to not be a factor.
The 5.10c climbing on pitch 6 went by quickly. It climbs an enormous dihedral through the best rock on the route and the climbing is varied enough that you don’t get bored. For free climbers, this pitch ends at the “Flake Belay”. It’s a detached pancake flake, about a foot wide and 10 feet long that hovers about a foot out from the right side of the dihedral. It’s quite a comfortable belay if you straddle the flake, cowboy–style. Above the flake, the crack is very narrow. Still in the aforementioned massive dihedral, now the crack has pinched to about the size of a #0 Tcu, or about 3/8”. There are a few pin scar pods that will accept more of my fingertips, but the laybacking is still very strenuous. This section is only about 35’ long but it packs a punch.
I stood high off the flake and placed a ratty old 0 tcu with a period-piece bit of spectra cord tied in for a sling. I had borrowed this piece from my friend Brian Cabe, and was glad to get it off of my rack as soon as possible. I don’t know when he acquired it, but by the looks of the thing, it must have been a prototype at one time. A few stem moves are possible right off the belay which gave me a chance to place another piece before launching into the do-or-fly lieback. About 10’ above the belay is the crux where the crack pinches down and the smearing wall is as unblemished as a Boulder Trustafarian’s # 4 Camalot. I powered through this section and reached a good tips finger lock right at the point where my foot reached a small divot. The hardest moves were done, but the corner stays steep and strenuous, so I took a deep breath and continued on. At this point, the left wall of the dihedral bulges out creating another crux, amazingly, this bulge happens right at the point where the crack widens enough to stuff all of your fingers in and a bomber # 0.5 camalot. Another rest was had above the bulge, then the last hard moves, protected by a # 00 tcu allow access to the sloping ledge that marks the standard end of pitch 6. I made the memorable 5.7 traverse along the ledge out to the left edge of the dihedral at the base of the “triple roofs” pitch. The first hard pitch was in the bag!
The next pitch, the standard “pitch 7”, is the physical and psychological crux of the route. The pitch starts under an inverted staircase feature known as the “triple overhangs”. The pitch was originally climbed via a knifeblade crack where the roofs meet the main wall. These scars have since grown to wide pods from the relentless piton-ing and the extremely soft rock. Above the roof, the crack widens to a seam large enough to accept tiny nuts. This pitch, with its marginal protection, is the aid crux of the route.
On my recon, I had toproped this pitch, and done all the moves, but I hadn’t yet attempted to place the gear on the lead which is an entirely different prospect. Two days before, when I rapped in to place the last few bolts, I had scrutinized the crack and worked out an intricate system of protection. This pitch would make or break the climb, and I feared it would make or break me. I started up the overhang, and encountered the first placement, a #00 tcu in a flaring pod of white, sandy rock. Soon after, I reached a thin vertical crack that accepted a small offset nut. From this shoddy protection, I had to power out some desperate moves to reach the first of 3 fixed bugaboo pitons I had placed previously. As I moved above the offset, it popped out, and fell back down the rope. I immediately lost my nerve and down-climbed to the belay. I made a few more half-hearted attempts, but I was completely psyched out. I decided that the first 7 pitches I had climbed would be adequate for today. We would rap down to the ground, spend the night in the comfort of the motel, and come back tomorrow to finish the route.
The slightly overhanging rappels to the bivy ledge atop pitch 4 went smoothly. From here, it is possible to diverge from the route and rappel straight down the face. Dusk was upon as we cast off down the blank face at about 5:00pm. The second rappel off the ledge is a 50m straight shot down a smooth wall. I was rapping on a 100m static line that I had stashed on the bivy ledge for just such an occasion. I had done this rappel before, so I knew when to expect the next anchor, but I hadn’t used this rope. As I approached the end of the rope, I still couldn’t see the anchor. By now, it was completely dark. By the time I realized my rope was short, I was dangling below a roof. The next anchor was 10 feet below on a sloping ledge. Apparently the 50m rap included the stretch from a dynamic rope.
I dangled in space for a while, completely exhausted and at the end of my rope – literally and figuratively. I thought about trying to prusik back up to the anchor 50m above, and thinking of nothing better to do, I started the process. I had done this a few times before to retrieve stuck ropes, so I knew what to do. Take a shoulder sling, wrap it around the rope a few times and try to keep it from sliding down the slippery sheath. Eventually, I was able to get above the overhang which greatly improved my predicament. About that point, I spotted a tiny ledge about 20’ to my right, and just above me, and I made a beeline for that.
Once established on the ledge, I was able to calm down enough to think of a solution. I tried to yell to my wife up above to reposition the rope so that I could rappel down to the belay on a single line, but she couldn’t hear me. I realized I had a 30’ piece of webbing in my pack, and I figured I could use the webbing to extend the rope. I tied the webbing to each end of the 100m rope, then pulled the rope through so that the webbing section would be above me. At this point, Janelle really started freaking out, as she saw our only rope being pulled through the anchor she was hanging at. Fortunately for her, I knew what I was doing. With the extra 30’ in the rope, I was barely able to reach the lower anchor, and proceeded down to the ground without a hitch.
We just about missed dinner in springdale, but fortunately there was a small Chinese restaurant still open. We gorged ourselves on orange chicken and white rice, then settled into the Bumbleberry Motel anticipating the rest of the climb the next day. We woke up early on the 22nd, and found six inches of new snow....
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atg200
Mar 27, 2005, 12:32 AM
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In reply to: About 10’ above the belay is the crux where the crack pinches down and the smearing wall is as unblemished as a Boulder Trustafarian’s # 4 Camalot
Classic!
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golsen
Mar 27, 2005, 6:04 PM
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Mike,
awesome story! I just saw some pics in R&I (or was it the other rag) of your ascent. You inspired me. No I didnt go climbing (I am at work) but you did inspire me to post a few pics of the route from 20 years ago. I apologize here for the quality but the slides are 20 yrs old and scanned on a cheap scanner. They should be available in the Zions Route area or from my profile in a couple days.
Thanks for sharing,
Gary
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mikemachineco
Mar 28, 2005, 10:01 PM
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Mike, keep writing! I'm loving it, especially after having climbed the route last spring.
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golsen
Mar 29, 2005, 8:33 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=51065
Here is the scary (Lowe 5.7) traverse pitch that takes you to the "exit crack" near the top of the Lowe Route, Angels Landing. About 1'000 feet of air beneath Guy Toombes as I am very happy to belay this pitch. about 1985 or 86.
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golsen
Mar 29, 2005, 8:38 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=51062
about the 7th Pitch of the Lowe Route in 85? Note the flake belay lower down that Mike mentioned in his writeup....At that time there were only about two pin scars in the thin crack.
Mike, time to finish up?
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golsen
Mar 29, 2005, 8:43 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=51064
This is about the 11th pitch for us (10th in Desert Rock), Lowe Route, Angels Landing. I think the first rating I saw in a guidebook was V 5.7 A2, I think Harlins Climbing In NA Guide. 5.7??? Is that flake still there? I thought it was loose when I aided by 20 years ago, quite possibly I was freaked...
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golsen
Mar 29, 2005, 8:53 PM
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Me on 5th Pitch of the Lowe Route in about 1985. Great corner above. Sorry for the Quality of the slides, they are 20 yrs old and scanned on a cheap scanner.
Mike, time to sit still at your keyboard for a little while.
Garyhttp://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=51060
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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: Is that flake still there? I thought it was loose when I aided by 20 years ago, quite possibly I was freaked...
Great pics!
That flake is definitely not there. I'm pretty sure that photo is taken from the tiny belay ledge that is gained once you climb out of the huge overhanging dihedral and onto the upper headwall. Currently, that section is a jumble of loose blocks...I called it 5.10+ R, a fall would most likely be a factor 2 onto the belay.
Here comes Chapter 4....
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golsen
Mar 29, 2005, 9:17 PM
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Thanks,
as you can tell, these pics have been sitting around collecting dust. Nice to share after all of these years. I knew that sucker was loose....this pitch is the same as you said.
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rockprodigy
Mar 29, 2005, 9:21 PM
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Chapter 4
Things were getting desperate. I had family commitments for the Thanksgiving weekend, and I knew that the next opportunity I would have to try the route would be in December. I was losing hope. With each week, the temperatures lowered as the days got shorter. I couldn’t find partners, and at one point I even resorted to posting an ad on the internet. That resulted in one person who was willing to belay me for one day. We rapped in from the top so that I could work on the crux sections, but the temps were in the 40’s so I wasn’t able to even attempt a redpoint. In between every trip, the constant storms would leave moss and sand on all of the holds, and the hard pitches needed to be re-cleaned. I seriously considered abandoning the project, and waiting until spring, but I was moving to Colorado at the end of December, and I didn’t know if my new job would afford me enough time to complete the route. Word of my attempts was starting to spread, and I worried that another climber might be able to sneak and climb the route before me.
Just as I was about to give up, a high pressure system appeared on the forecast. It coincided with finals week for my graduate program at the U of Utah, but I worked it out so that I could finish my work early, then escape to southern Utah. This was it, my last chance to climb the route this year.
Janelle and I started at 8:30am on December 11th, highs were expected to be in the upper 50’s. For this last-ditch effort, I recruited my friend, and renowned photographer Andrew Burr to join us to photograph the attempt. His presence added some much needed levity to the serious mood of the climb, and gave Janelle someone to talk to. I moved quickly up through the first 6 pitches. The hard pitches of my previous attempt went down with ease, and I felt a surge of confidence as I arrived below the crux triple roof pitch.
I wasted no time in getting started on the menacing pitch. I wanted to keep the momentum going and be well committed on the pitch before I had time to think about it. I skipped the poor nut placement that had popped out and rattled my nerves on the previous attempt. I pulled around the first roof and clipped a #1 bugaboo piton placed in a vertical crack. Hopefully it would hold a fall, if needed. The crux soon followed which requires throwing a foot high onto a slopey foot bump in the midst of a powerful lieback, then trusting your weight to the smear and reaching up for a good pinscar. I clipped another pin, this placed horizontally, which inspired more confidence. The next few moves put me out on the face. The last fixed pin was at eye level, but I had to execute another crux move before I could clip it. With only two fingers crammed in a shallow pin scar, a powerful lieback move is required to reach a square-cut edge that marks the end of the crux section.
I clipped the last pin, then tried to shakeout on the vertical wall. The hardest moves were below, but I still had 50 feet of runout climbing above me. I paused for about five minutes at the awkward stance. The handholds are good enough to allow alternating shakes, but the footholds are not. I decided to move on when my calves began to pump out. The next 30’ entails delicate face climbing on either side of the thin seam. The seam is typically in one hand or another, but I never have the benefit of seeing straight in to place the gear. The serious nature of this pitch could be easily reduced by pre-placing the gear. I’m sure many future suitors will take this option, but for me it was out of the question, as a matter of principle. I gingerly stuff a nut into a flaring pin scar, then give it a gentle tug to test its worth. My only choice is to clip in, keep moving, and don’t fall.
About 15 feet above the last pin, the crack narrows down and gear becomes more difficult to place. At the last opportunity, I placed a blind #3 peenut. With the holds above well etched in my mind, I made the decision to trust my strength and balance, rather than these dubious nuts. I commit to climbing the last hard sequences with the protection that is already in place. Near the top of the seam, 15 feet above the peanut, I am poised to make the last move. My right hand is in an incut finger-tip bucket, and my left foot on a low edge. The object of my desire is a handjam a few feet above, and just out of reach. On my previous attempts, I did this move many different ways, and was unsure of how to proceed. I could high-step my right foot on a sandy, fragile flake and execute the move statically…assuming the sandy foothold remained in place. On the other hand, my right hand was solid, and I was going to a good hold, so why not just…dyno!
I latched the hand jam, and let out a scream of relief. In the excitement, I struggled to place a cam in the widening crack, but eventually got it in there. I quickly scampered up the remaining 20 or so feet to the ledge, relieved to finally slay this pitch. It was the most challenging lead of my life.
By this time, it was getting late. Per our plan, we rapped to the ground, and left the remainder of the route to the next day. This time the rappelling went smoothly, even with three of us. We reached the ground at 5pm, just enough time to cross the river in the dusk light, and get some grub.
Having crossed the Virgin several times by now, I had developed an effective procedure. Andy, who has a rebellious disposition in the first place, was new to the operation, and didn’t take kindly to me barking out orders. He decided to cross the river his way, which I must admit, was much more entertaining. My procedure consisted of a few simple steps which should be carried out in a certain order, at certain locations on the river. The issue was that we only had one pair of wading boots, and three people. The first person (me) would wade across, carrying his shoes. The wading location was carefully selected on a previous trip to ensure that water didn’t overtake the boots. Once across the river, I would hike down to another carefully selected location to toss the boots (one at a time) back across the river to the next person.
Andy didn’t like any of this. Just as I was starting into the river I heard the sound of a flying shoe. Andy had decided that he didn’t want to carry his shoes, so he took them off and tried to throw them across, right where I was wading. The problem with this, is that the “wading spot” is shallow, and therefore, wide. The shoe missed the bank by about 5 feet, and began to float down the river, at which point, Andy panicked and chucked his other shoe. This shoe did better, still getting wet, but I was able to grab it before it floated down river to the “throwing spot”. By this time, Andy’s first shoe had floated down to the aforementioned “throwing spot”. Now a good “throwing spot” should be narrow, so that your shoes, or boots make it across the river. The problem with narrow, is that it is also deep. So when Andy jumped into the river, right about where the “throwing spot” is, he was up to his chest in the Virgin. At this point, he was already halfway across, so he continued to ford the river at the “throwing spot”. As I said earlier, his way was much more entertaining....
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une
Apr 1, 2005, 4:33 PM
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Wait a minute, you were on pitch 7, 15 feet above a #3 peanut with marginal pro below that, and you DYNO'ed to a hand jam. :shock: :shock:
Damn!!
http://www.mikechurch.com/...big_brass_balls1.jpg
Some people got 'em.
I know I could never pull off a move like that.
P.S. Keep the stories comming, these are awesome.
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rockprodigy
Apr 1, 2005, 8:42 PM
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Thanks.
Check out page 21 of the new Climbing (238). That's the spot right there, with that green quickdraw way down there clipped to that #3.
I'm still working on the last chapter...it will be next week at the earliest.
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golsen
Apr 1, 2005, 9:09 PM
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Mike,
Nice writing. Thanks. I thought the crux pitch was the former knifeblade pitch as i read your story. Not true? I need to look at the mag I guess.
G
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rockprodigy
Apr 1, 2005, 9:25 PM
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That is the pitch. It's the 7th pitch per the original aid route, the "triple overhangs" pitch. The overhangs comprize the part that used to be knifeblades and is now angles. Once over the overhangs, the seam splits a vertical wall, which is the photo in the mag.
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rockprodigy
Apr 1, 2005, 10:30 PM
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OK, I was able to crank out Chapter 5, which I thought would be the end, but I will need one more chapter:
Chapter 5
The next day, we all hiked up to the top of Angel’s Landing. The hike was enjoyable because I was sure this was my last day on the route. The remaining hard pitches were mostly bolted, and although I hadn’t redpointed any of them yet, I felt confident that I could do them. We started later than usual because rapping off the 1500’ high summit onto the shady North Face, is quite a bit colder than starting from the ground.
When we reached the ledge, I started up the 8th pitch, which was the first pitch of the bolted variation. I hadn’t redpointed this pitch before either, but I had a chance to climb it bolt-to-bolt the previous week when my friend Josh rapped in with me. It starts off of the left end of the ledge, about 30 feet to the left of the original bolt ladder. The climbing is absolutely amazing, and improbable. Subtle features, which do not at all seem climbable can be linked together with a serpentine series of moves. Right at the beginning, the pitch is most devious, requiring probably more than 30 moves to gain 10 feet, as I climbed back and forth across the bolt line.
The wall eventually rears back to just past vertical, but amazingly the holds improve as well. Above this section, a steep slab with miniscule patina holds allows passage to a small left-facing dihedral, 20 feet to the right. The dihedral contains the crux moves of the pitch. The moves are awkward including a high hand foot match, an arête move or two, and finally a long rock-over to get established in the dihedral. Once in the dihedral, the climbing is straight forward, but sandy, and I was soon perched on a 2’x2’ ledge with a new bolted anchor.
Pitch 9 is the sports climbing pitch. I had taken to referring to it as the “TA” or “Tom Adams” pitch when I was talking to myself about it. For example, I might say: “Self, what do you think about the TA pitch?” and I would reply: “oh yeah, the TA pitch, that’s pretty sick, Tom would love it, I hope you can do it, self.” I called it the TA pitch for a number of reasons, but mostly because Tom is the best sports climber I know, and he is known for his ability to climb desperately steep routes in places like ‘mercan Fork and Maple.
The TA pitch is unlike anything I have ever seen in Zion, and seems more suited to the steep walls of Red Rocks. From the tiny ledge that forms the belay, the left-facing dihedral continues straight up for about 10’ before rearing back to the left, eventually becoming horizontal about 30’ above the belay. The corner juts out about 2’ feet so that when it becomes horizontal it forms a 2’ roof. The lip of the roof, and the arête formed by the dihedral are studded with incut patina jugs while the main wall of the undercut face is as blank as a Camp 4 denizens’ employment record. This geometry forces the climber onto the overhanging arête for some exciting moves.
This pitch also hadn’t been redpointed, but I had worked out the moves a little bit with Josh. I started up the arête, tried to milk a rest at the second bolt, then clipped the third and committed to the crux. At this point, I was at the roof, and the holds dictated traversing the lip until some holds formed by a vertical crack could be reached. The hardest move requires grabbing a tiny right-hand crimp at just the right angle, placing my right foot high and pressing off in order to reach out to a finger jug at the crack. I made the reach on my first try, and was excited to complete the pitch. I placed my left foot on a block that protrudes out at the lip of the overhang, and pressed my weight onto it. Just as I began the rock-over, I heard a crack, and I was airborne.
During the fall, I didn’t have time to think about my rope sliding across the jagged patina that forms the lip of the overhang, or whether I would be able to get back to the belay. I saw some debris out of the corner of my eye while I made an arcing trajectory under the lip of the roof. When I hit the end of the rope, I pieced together what had happened. That protruding block that my left foot was on had been replaced by a fresh scar, and my optimistic confidence had been replaced by the fear of another wild pendulum-ing fall over the jagged-edged roof. It took me two more tries to redpoint the pitch. Another 13a, I had guessed, but who really knows up here, with nobody to offer a second opinion, and so many other factors to throw you off your game.
Above the lip of the roof, the route follows an intermittent seam that provides just enough clean gear while climbing mostly patina face holds. About 30’ over the roof a small sandy ledge is reached which is about 30’ to the left, and 10’ below the original belay at the end of pitch 9, above the large dihedral overhang.
From this stance, we were in no-mans land: A small ledge on a big face, a stone’s throw from the original route, but no obvious means of getting there. This is where the madness of Mike Anderson comes in. This 30’ stretch would make or break the climb, I had known it from the first bolt I placed in this crazy 3 pitch variation. To pioneer crack-less face climbing on the steep walls of Zion is a bit daft in its own right, but to push it for three pitches and hope to regain the original route? Well, that bordered on insanity. The previous two pitches formed a relatively straightforward passage compared to this stretch. The problem is it dead-ends at a stance with seemingly nowhere to go. From this position, it was easy to see why no body else had made any concerted attempts to free this wall.
But I’m crazy, remember? About 10’ below the stance, a finger tip sized (is that a 0.4 Friend?) horizontal crack shoots out to the right. It reaches for 20’ or so, where it disappears into a series of loose blocks and flakes that are strangely plastered to the wall. Anticipating this escape route, I had placed one bolt along this seam to protect the moves I hoped I could do. When I reached that sandy belay ledge that Sunday afternoon in December I had never even tried this pitch. I thought it would be easier than the previous pitches, so I wasn’t so worried about it, until that day. With the long pitch 8 and 3 tries to redpoint pitch 9 under my belt, I was tired. As Andy said later that day…I had been crimping like a mutha fucka all day long.
I left the belay optimistic. If I could send this pitch, I would be done with the hard climbing and the wall would be in the bag. From the belay, I placed a tcu in a flake as far to the right as possible to provide a good toprope for the traversing moves below me. I began by down climbing the last 10’ of pitch 9, to reach the horizontal seam. The seam is decent, providing half-pad crimps on a varying quality of holds. Some are positive some are not. The footholds are virtually non existent. There are a few bumps here and there, but half of them turn out to be just clumps of lichen, and the other half provide only psychological benefit. My first try, I traversed out the seam, practically campussing between moves, not caring to place my feet on the terrible holds. I reached the bolt, about 15’ out, clipped it, and reached over for one of the aforementioned loose blocks when the pump hit me hard and I peeled off, pendulum-ing back onto the bolt.
I worked out some moves and tried again, and again, and again. One other time I made it to the bolt, but the cumulative fatigue of the past few days was piling up, and I couldn’t progress much beyond it. Andy had stopped shooting a while ago as it was getting late and the light had disappeared. I lost track of how many tries I gave that short little section, but eventually I reached a point where I was making less progress with each try and Andy convinced me to pack it in.
I decided to let it go for the night. Andy helped us get back over to the main route and we jugged to the summit, disappointed to have to come back for yet another day.
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golsen
Apr 1, 2005, 11:06 PM
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Mike, great story. I am really enjoying this and I appreciate your time in putting it together. I do not know what the best forum is for stories like this, at the time, this certainly seems good. There have been so many climbing stories that have not been published that need to be preserved and I guess this forum does that. Anyway, cool. But I must warn you not to rely on guidebooks to determine a 0.4 friend size, I am still trying to determine that one too....
G
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skinner
Apr 1, 2005, 11:19 PM
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In reply to: Check out page 21 of the new Climbing (238). That's the spot right there. |
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le_bruce
Apr 6, 2005, 10:58 PM
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Like any great piece of climbing prose, this gets your palms sweating. Cheers for taking the time, and I look forward to reading more. Your grandchildren are going to be stoked to read this one day, compadre...
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rockprodigy
Apr 7, 2005, 9:18 PM
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OK, this is the last one, finally...
Chapter 6
Monday, December 13th: The third day on the route, and certainly the last. Either I would finish the route today, or give it up. Again we, hiked up Angel’s Landing. This would be the 9th time I had hiked to the summit of Angel’s Landing since I started working on the project in September. By this time I knew there were 29 switchbacks up Walter’s Wiggles and 27 lengths of chain railing on the final stretch above Scout lookout. This would also be my 12th day working on the route, which really under-represents the time I had spent on it. I had come down to Zion on 10 separate weekends, at one point, I came down from Salt Lake 3 weekends in a row and was rained out on every one. I had spent a lot of time in Zion Canyon, and not enough time on the route. This day, the 13th of December, would determine whether or not it had all been worth it.
So far the weather had been amazing. The high pressure system that seemed to be severely lacking in the previous 3 months was hanging around with a vengeance. Andy decided not to come down the fixed ropes with us this time, but to stay on the approach trail and shoot photos from there. He stopped at Scout Lookout, and it was just Janelle and I. We moved quickly down the ropes, hoping to “get it over with”. I was tired from the two long days in a row. My fingers were stiff, and my legs were racked. The steep slab pitches and two treks up the trail had destroyed my calves and jellified my quads. As luck would have it, the last hard pitch didn’t have any footholds, so my tired calves wouldn’t be tested.
We soon gained our perch from the previous night, on top of the new pitch 9, the second of the variation pitches. We were on a small ledge, just a short 40’ pitch away from the original aid route. I desperately wanted to avoid the futile repeated efforts of the night before. My first try would be my best hope for redpointing the pitch. On this, my third day of hard climbing, I knew that each subsequent attempt would be more difficult as fatique set in. I still wasn’t certain how hard this pitch was, as I had never redpointed it, but I felt like it was probably 12c. It was hard to judge from the previous day’s efforts because I was so exhausted. Was I just tired, or was the pitch really hard?
Those thoughts played in my mind as I set off from the belay. I placed the tcu out right under the flake, then began the down climbing…this was my warmup. The moves felt good, and I held deep breaths to relax my mind and body. When I reached the horizontal seam 10’ below the belay, I didn’t hesitate. I set out across the rail deliberately, with urgency, but not panic. This time I placed my feet carefully, but avoided weighting them to the point that they would pop off the shy holds. I could feel the pump building, but as I reached the bolt at 15’ out along the rail I still felt strong. A couple more desperate moves on half-pad crimps, and I reached a loose block with a good incut edge on it.
When I placed the bolt almost a month earlier, I had noticed this block was loose, and marked it with a chalk “X”, that I now ignored. I grabbed the block, and felt it flex, but it held. A couple easier moves and I was perched in an awkward rest, able to alternate handholds to shakeout. I was about 25’ across “no-man’s-land” with 15’ more to go to reach the wide crack of the main aid route, just a few feet over the lip of the large overhanging dihedral. In my intense efforts to free climb the thin horizontal crack, I had been too focused to notice the exposure which now overwhelmed me. I was clinging to a flake that is plastered to a perfectly smooth wall. The smooth wall extends about 15 feet below me, before it falls away into the massive overhang that forms the large cleft in Angel’s Landing.
After a good rest, I continued on. The climbing was much easier, but more delicate, as I navigated through a series of stacked blocks and hollow flakes. A few small tcu’s are available for gear, and at one point I pulled off a brick-sized rock which fell straight down to the ground without touching the wall. Shortly, I gained the main aid line at a hand sized crack, and cruised the 20’ or so, to the belay ledge at the top of the original pitch 9. I let out a modern day yodel (“woohoo!”) and soon heard a response from Andy who had been watching through his telephoto lense from Scout Lookout. Janelle skillfully executed the lower-out from the small ledge, and soon joined me at the original belay.
I had climbed pitch 10 before, way back in October when I first tried the route. I had used a few points of aid that time to speed things up, but wasn’t too worried. The first few moves off the ledge are exciting as a smorgasbord of loose blocks and incipient cracks must be overcome. The best gear is an old bugaboo that sticks out about 2”. I climbed through the blocks carefully, and soon was on better rock about 20’ up. I felt these exciting moves warranted an 10+,R rating. The remainder of the pitch is really beautiful. A thin crack that wavers in and out of finger-size splits a smooth wall peppered with incut patina edges. The crux comes at a small roof, just before the anchor. I was surprised by the accumulated fatigue of the last few days, and the 11a pitch felt harder than expected.
The next pitch is an airy 5.8 traverse left, past some fixed mank and a rusty ¼” star-drive bolt from the FA. After 30’ or so, a horizontal crack grows to a sizable ledge that leads into the summit gully. The next two pitches climb un-inspiring rock up the sandy gully where the cruxes seem to be avoiding or surmounting hostile foliage. To make matters worse, Andy had come down the fixed ropes to rejoin us by this time and was nocking down rocks while insisting we slow down so he can snap photos…what are friends for?
Before long we were on the summit. For the first time since October, I had topped out before the sun was down, and I was able to soak up some rays for a few minutes before it fell behind the Watchman and the other formations of the East Temple. We had a jovial hike down, the last time I would get to count the chains, and then the switchbacks this year. Arriving at the car earlier than usual, we had our pick of dining establishments, and chose to sample the lifestyle of the “other-half” by treating ourselves to the Zion Lodge Restaurant. This turned out to be a bad idea. They were remodeling the kitchen, and being a weekday during the off-season, they had a buffet going. Cold tuna steak that’s been sitting under a heat lamp for several hours does not make for a good celebratory feast.
The next day we returned to the Big Bend parking lot, where this journey had started 6 months before when I first scoped the line during a busy Memorial Day weekend in May. We took some documentary photos to help with drawing a topo, and basically stared in awe at the massive wall, genuinely feeling fortunate to live near such a spectacular and fulfilling landscape. Andy headed south, on his way to his next photography job in Hueco Tanks, Texas. I lingered a few more hours, enjoying the freedom of having completed my journey by looking here and there throughout the canyon for that next great challenge. I found myself in the Court of the Patriarchs, in a beautiful meadow that is thankfully off the beaten path. As I gazed up on the three giant walls surrounding me, I couldn’t help but wonder if there wasn’t a free route or two up there…somewhere.
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golsen
Apr 7, 2005, 11:52 PM
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Good Job Mike and thanks for sharing. That is definitely a cool route with a lot more character than some of the more popular routes in Zions and more history too. Does anyone know if it has been climbed (aided) in a day? Probably not too difficult but still quite a day...
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brianinslc
Apr 8, 2005, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: Good Job Mike and thanks for sharing.
Hey, whats this story doing in an aid climbing forum? Ha ha. Great read, Mike.
In reply to: Does anyone know if it has been climbed (aided) in a day?
I know its been done with a few hours of daylight left after fixing the first two pitches (Jason, used to hold the speed record for Moonlight, and Mandy). So, sounds doable by the speedily inclined.
Brian in SLC
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rockprodigy
Apr 8, 2005, 2:46 PM
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I think Mandy fixed the first 4 or 5 pitches, according to her account on climbingmoab.com.
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brianinslc
Apr 8, 2005, 2:52 PM
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In reply to: I think Mandy fixed the first 4 or 5 pitches, according to her account on climbingmoab.com.
Yesssss. First 4 pitches with four ropes. Fix-n-fire.
-Brian in SLC
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rockprodigy
Apr 8, 2005, 4:22 PM
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And, actually, you can fix the first 5 with 4 ropes, which I think is what she did because the 5th pitch is the first aid pitch, which can be somewhat time consuming (it's longish).
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mikemachineco
Apr 8, 2005, 4:31 PM
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I'm quite confident that it has been done in a day. My buddy and I (we're nothing special and it was his second "wall") did it in a day after fixing to the top of pitch 5 with 3 or 4 ropes. The next day we saw a party try to blast it without fixed ropes and we saw them around the 5.8 traverse as the sun was going down. So, I'm guessing they made it, although probably in the dark. I would guess that in all the years there's been some hard team that blitzed it in a quick time. Quite a spectacular route, one that I will always remember.
Mike, thanks for the great story. Nice job!
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scottharms
Apr 18, 2005, 9:21 PM
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Longest thread i have ever taken the time to read. So did i miss "Drinkin Beer Are Ya" somewhere along the line. It seems the stories have slowed down. Anymore to come?
Cheers
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 2:57 AM
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The past two months have seen great spring climbing and glad to say I've had my share. Those rumors of me taking a bus to New Mexico and returning with a towel over my head are largely untrue.
Truth is, one climbing trip to Valley of Fire included several of the posters at this site among them. One of them and I each soloed a virgin summit in one afternoon.
Then there is the rumor that in seclusion I had composed an epic 34 verse poem detailing a partnership gone awry and addressing the furor over drilled pockets.
Again this is largely false but if I HAD then 3 of my favorite verses might be;
The tales of desert walls are replete with teams of two,
And most will wax poetic telling what their partners do.
There's a bond of shared adventure and survival forged in fire,
A mutual respect which only grows as they climb higher.
But when glory shines lopsided on the one more skilled with pen
Then the green eyed ghost succeeds turning heroes into men.
Those legendary bonds will be dashed upon the rocks,
And the Terrier of Zion will pee on both your socks.
When one sees all the lines and when they're best to do,
And calculates the light and when they're best to view.
When one does all the prep and gathers all the gear,
And shuttles with his car, and calls, "The weather's clear."
The teams are out of balance and trouble near at hand,
The glory's gotten rarer to find around the land.
And you're smelling something funny your foot jams no longer locks.
For god's sake don't look down cause he's peeing on your socks.
The little dog has found a world where wishes do come true.
He can say he climbed it free convinced he's fooling you.
He writes it in a little book and wishes very hard,
And if nobody calls his foul the play becomes canard.
but dogs they run in little packs too scared to run alone,
They always fight for status as if there's but one bone.
The little dog can only dream the glory of a lion,
And that's the thing that always grates the Terrier of Zion
And talk about astounding coincidences; if I really run off all my partners what are the odds of me bagging a virgin summit in Zion in the past weeks with not only another climber I'd met over a quarter century ago, but also another Dartmouth grad and (how's this?), also a geoligist and also a one time Noranda employee??
Yet so it went.
John Cleary and I even went through our guide's certification exam together 15 years ago. subsequently an AMGA President John was out to interest me in a Guatemalan jade mine.
He showed up at Justin's Texas Hold'em game which (more crowded than ever) was a veritable redneck roundup. Although nobody actually BROUGHT a cousin/girlfriend there had to be at least one waiting at home...
My stack was already short and I went out third without a single hand. I opted not to buy back in at twice the price but went home and saw new ways to handle grenades in a high class hotel on Grid.
Shortly no_one showed John to my house where he exalted in taking second place and many a redneck dollar.
The following afternoon saw the three of us at the sand pit with 3 reactive metal targets, bowling pins and a meter high cardboard Osama bin Laden holding an AK, and also hundreds of loaded clips for us.
No_one had brought his 2 year old son R__ obviously intent on corrupting his values as soon as he was mobile. This remarkable child only spoke when he had something to say, is remarkably adept at collecting spent brass shells, eats very little, and is cute enough to be a guaranteed babe magnet. For the last reason I attempted to convince his father that that the child's talents were largely wasted on a married man and offered to take the little tyke off his hands. After some consideration the father assured me that his brass collecting skill alone justified retention.
Negotiations are ongoing...
Anyway, true to real life everyone wanted to shoot the metal and Osama went unscathed until I took an H&K +P+ clip and put over a dozen right under his hanky.
Morning saw Cleary and I trudging up to the tower, a rope and a rack each. Two leads, a 5.9 with a 10 meter tunnel/cave, then a 15 meter headwall including 3 drilled angles for aid. Two of them requiring more than topstepping, I actually had to balance onto the top of them in order to reach holds that allowed futher progress.
The summit was definitely virgin (a coup for seniors, I turn 51 in a few weeks and Cleary is older.) We took photos with an old time camera and drank cold beers but when I figure out my new Nikon I'll post photos of the tower.
Turns out that day there was a prison riot in Tasmania and a guard was held hostage. While they may be criminals you have to give the rioters credit for having realistic goals (unlike some people). They didn't demand freedom they just wanted 15 pizzas.
I can just see the negotiator,
"It depends.... what do you want on them?"
Anyway we decided to call it the Tasmanian Tower of Pizza (it leans too).
And just in case there's anyone out there who feels I exempt myself from good natured ridicule Cleary and I decided to call our route on Taz Tower the Clearly Offensive Route.
But much of this thread has been less than good natured and the timing out of the blue right after I do a prominent interview, come out with a video, and score some consideration online, is suspicious to put it mildly. Then there is the sheer idiocy of Brian Smoot who suggests that because I'm a secular jew I shouldn't object to swastikas placed outside my house. That Jones claims to be provoked by allegations of lies and then denies the climbing community $10K by refusing a polygraph that would give him a grand as well speaks volumes on his credibility.
So does his story that our problems began on a day when he called me a liar by asking to see a phone bill.
Anyone that believes his crap about how his friend Dean didn't actually know I was jewish must've been known to P.T. Barnum.
But here's what I'll do;
Double or almost nothing.
If Dean Woods and Dave Jones accept by June 9, 2005 will put up $2K each as well as $20K for the climbing community should they pass a polygraph.
But if they refuse or fail the AAC will no longer remain my chief heir with a bequest currently valued at 7 figures and a lesser one for the Access Fund with a 6 figure value will also be nullified.
I'll still leave the AAC my climbing/adventure library and selected gear including the holy grail of wall bivies, the original Bat Tent.
But the community as a whole has been such a disappointment to me with their schoolyard behavior of encouraging a fight rather than recognizing that our true problems are external and long term. And worse yet are the schoolGIRLS who trade malicious rumors.
The funds I had bequeathed were/are for the preservation of climbing resources but why bother when Jones tells us "they're not intended to last"?
Certainly my millions would be better spent elsewhere.
Woods' ex-partner Ben and I have talked a bit of dive trips. Cave diving with rebreathers that allow extended submersion as well as environmental preservation. It would be interesting to see virgin waters while there still are a few.
Then there is Bora Bora. I could have a pretty nice ship if I wanted one.
I could get back out on the frontier to see it before its gone...
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yosemite
May 27, 2005, 3:44 AM
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In reply to: If Dean Woods and Dave Jones accept by June 9, 2005 will put up $2K each as well as $20K for the climbing community should they pass a polygraph. But if they refuse or fail the AAC will no longer remain my chief heir with a bequest currently valued at 7 figures and a lesser one for the Access Fund with a 6 figure value will also be nullified. Certainly my millions would be better spent elsewhere.
You truly sound like a disturbed person. What is it that you are looking for?
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 4:19 AM
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You sound like a truly illiterate person but I'll answer anyway. I'm looking for silly little things like justice and truth and a good way to enjoy spending my money.
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 4:22 AM
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I will inform the AAC tomorrow morning (and I don't fault them. I'm disenchanted with the community as a whole.)
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yosemite
May 27, 2005, 4:48 AM
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Dangle,
In reply to: I will inform the AAC tomorrow morning (and I don't fault them. I'm disenchanted with the community as a whole.
What a pompous asshole you are.
Why don't you take your millions, your hurt feelings, and your adolescent sense of self importance and shove them all up your ass? What a fucking cry baby.
Truly!
Gene
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 5:07 AM
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Thank you for your confirmation of my assessment (as in "I rest my case."), but you are deluded by the suggestion that I find myself to be important.
Quite the contrary. I'm an out of shape 51 year old whose adolescent behavior consists of still laying hands on virgin rock.
Perhaps if you had experienced the placement of symbols of the genocide of your people outside your home as well as vandalism of significant proportion you wouldn't have your head so firmly inserted as well, Gene.
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 5:18 AM
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Oh now I get it. You think that I'm saying I'm important because I have a few mil? Hey there are over 4,000,000 people in this country with a seven figure net worth and any idiot who's been investing in the market for three decades could be one.
I'm a big fan of capitalism. You'd have to be an idiot NOT to be.
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golsen
May 27, 2005, 9:22 AM
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double post
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golsen
May 27, 2005, 9:26 AM
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Dangle,
nice poem. And congrats on the tower.
In reply to: But much of this thread has been less than good natured and the timing out of the blue right after I do a prominent interview, come out with a video, and score some consideration online, is suspicious to put it mildly. Then there is the sheer idiocy of Brian Smoot who suggests that because I'm a secular jew I shouldn't object to swastikas placed outside my house. That Jones claims to be provoked by allegations of lies and then denies the climbing community $10K by refusing a polygraph that would give him a grand as well speaks volumes on his credibility.
Gary
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flamer
May 27, 2005, 1:50 PM
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In reply to: If Dean Woods and Dave Jones accept by June 9, 2005 will put up $2K each as well as $20K for the climbing community should they pass a polygraph. But if they refuse or fail the AAC will no longer remain my chief heir with a bequest currently valued at 7 figures and a lesser one for the Access Fund with a 6 figure value will also be nullified.
It's unfortunate that you are so "disenchanted with the community as a whole", Ron. But if such is the case then why would you be so eager as to let the Olevsky millions ride on the shoulders of 2?? Two that you seem to think are the worst of the community??
It's all quite interesting....
Although I'm sure the AAC and the Access fund could have put your money to great use....they shall carry on.
Good luck to you Ron, whatever you choose to do!
josh
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 2:05 PM
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Gary, he wrote it. Just ask him.
Josh, who urged those two to do the right thing?
tradman, I'm an ethical investor. Profit is not my only goal. Tell me more about the millions I kill.
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grayhghost
May 27, 2005, 2:19 PM
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We were so close to having a civil, informative forum
dedicated to the history of Zion and some history in
the making but here we are again. Sad.
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 3:24 PM
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tradman, this confounds me. My parents were immigrants who met in the United States. My family has been in mineral resource development and marketing for generations. I'm currently considering a jade mine in Guatemala that would sell precious stone mostly to China.
What the heck do you mean by "our capitalism"?
We are part of a world economy and the US after only sixty year's prominence is quickly becoming a third rate nation that does a poor job of educating its children or managing its resources and thereby is failing to compete effectively in all but a few specialized markets.
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 3:40 PM
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gg, nature of the beast I guess, or do you fault me for standing my ground?
Send me your email and I'll send you some shots from my latest effort, Dead Horse Walking.
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 6:37 PM
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Ah but I jest not. This week I returned to Dead Horse Point and worked on a new route that years ago I had named Dead Horse Walking. Ofcourse the irony of the name coinciding with the nature of this thread was hardly lost on me...
What was strange was that at 4:15 I crawled out of the bivy cave to pee and saw a long line of vehicle lights below. As we walked to the route at 6:00 we saw a helicopter "chasing" what appeared to be a 6 horse stage coach over a mile away and over a thousand feet below us.
A Wells Fargo commercial in production??
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grayhghost
May 27, 2005, 6:46 PM
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I hear they are bring back the Indiana Jones series,
maybe they will have to give you credit if your rope
is hanging in the background.
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golsen
May 27, 2005, 7:01 PM
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dangle,
33 pages....I doubt many will brave the entire thread to find out what your beef is with other climbers. Could you summarize in one paragraph what is the exact nature of your beef? Just curious....
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 7:01 PM
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Ah gg if they could digitally remove Tom Cruise/Ron Kauk's rope mine should be no problem at all.
But who is this Jones?
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 7:06 PM
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I actually had a run in with the father of a young woman I was seeing in Indiana in '77.
I ended up naming a really good route after him.
Its called Hoosier Daddy
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 7:26 PM
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Gary,
did you ask Brian if he penned the idiotic tripe? Did he confirm???
As for your abridgement. I don't like it when others "paraphrase" me, and will not do it to others. If you want to read inadequate summaries read USA Today. At least I spared you the other 31 verses...
Besides you must remember; I can only type with one finger. I like you Gary even if you don't check for knots. So please don't ask for more information. PM me your email and I'll send you a shot of Dead Horse Walking.
Ron
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dangle
May 27, 2005, 8:19 PM
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What gives with the jargon minicapialization/highlighting? The new Navaho code talking perhaps??
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stroker
May 28, 2005, 7:11 AM
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I support Ron Olevsky! I do not know Ron personally, yet I feel as though I have enjoyed his vision and labor time and time again. After nearly a decade in Cedar City, I became well aquainted with Ron's routes. Even as I traveled east (towards Colorado) I climbed Mr. Dangles climbs. A few climbs you ask? Not likely...perhaps I'll spray my Olevsky routes in which I owe Ron greatly for pioneering great routes. I was on the Ribbed Buttress in Colorado National Monument. I was glazing at a overwhelming offwidth on the third pitch. I told myself (only myself because I was solo) that if I had to climb that horrific OW I would abandon hope and bail. To my surprise!!! was drilled angles arching to the left. This "ladder" avoided that OW, and my climb proceeded with bliss. Other climbs that we owe Ron for are obviously the popular routes in Zion. Without his vision of HAFWEN we would all be trying to scrape our way up ugly scares like that of the DESERT SHIELD. If you don't agree with me? Try to enjoy G-Money without having to deal with bigass blow-outs. I know how to climb hard aid, and I must agree that the cleaner (less man made crumbly)rock the better. I'm sure someone will disagree with me. I'm here to respect Dangles contributions to the climbing community. I feel as though I must list a few of his many contributions to remind people that its the climbing we need to focus on, not the rivalry or stubborness. Some of Dangles great routes are: Thousand Pints of Light, Leopard Skin, Presdigitator, Bats Meow, Babes in Tailand, The Highlander, Pygmyalien, Roar of the Greasepaint, Owl Rock, Touchstone Wall, Monkeyfinger, Prodical Sun, Spaceshot, Ribbed Buttress, Iron Messiah, Gentlemans Agreement, Sunlight Butress, to name an extreme few in southwestern Utah.
Thank for reading this
Troy Anderson
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bsmoot
Jun 1, 2005, 5:07 AM
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Hey Ed:
I accidently posted a PM here.
Please delete.
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dangle
Jun 1, 2005, 5:23 PM
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When I first read the above I figured Brian had posted and then deleted then it slowly dawned on me that it might actually be Brian's lame ass idea of an apology.
If this is the case then I must reassess my high opinion of his father in light of the poor job he did in teaching Brian a vital human communication skill.
An apology is not like saying "uncle" in a fight. One needs to DEAL WITH one's actions and their consequences.
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tenesmus
Jun 1, 2005, 5:55 PM
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I might have said this before, but you are a petty, bitter old man.
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dangle
Jun 1, 2005, 7:54 PM
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Tenesmus
A bold man indeed who renders opinions knowing little on the subject from the anonymous remote security of a computer screen.
How original!
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brianinslc
Jun 1, 2005, 8:03 PM
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From the USA Today a few days ago...
"Here is a secret that no one has told you: Real life is junior high. The world that you are about to enter is filled with junior high, adolescent pettiness; pubescent rivalries; the insecurities of 13-year-olds; and the false bravado of 14-year-olds. "
- Ex-NBC anchor Tom Brokaw, Emory University, May 16
But I am curious, Ron, what question you'd pose to Dean under the scrutiny of a lie detector test?
Nice cover shot on the latest Alpinist, eh? Not exactly "alpine" climbing, but, works for me (issue #11).
There goes the "good ol' boys club", eh, Rockprodigy? Ha ha.
Cheers,
Brian in SLC
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golsen
Jun 1, 2005, 10:37 PM
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In reply to: I support Ron Olevsky! I do not know Ron personally, yet I feel as though I have enjoyed his vision and labor time and time again. After nearly a decade in Cedar City, I became well aquainted with Ron's routes. Even as I traveled east (towards Colorado) I climbed Mr. Dangles climbs. A few climbs you ask? Not likely...perhaps I'll spray my Olevsky routes in which I owe Ron greatly for pioneering great routes. I was on the Ribbed Buttress in Colorado National Monument. I was glazing at a overwhelming offwidth on the third pitch. I told myself (only myself because I was solo) that if I had to climb that horrific OW I would abandon hope and bail. To my surprise!!! was drilled angles arching to the left. This "ladder" avoided that OW, and my climb proceeded with bliss. Other climbs that we owe Ron for are obviously the popular routes in Zion. Without his vision of HAFWEN we would all be trying to scrape our way up ugly scares like that of the DESERT SHIELD. If you don't agree with me? Try to enjoy G-Money without having to deal with bigass blow-outs. Troy Anderson
Ron has certainly put up some awesome routes and his vision for that is commendable. I have even seen some of the ST.com crowd commend his clean climbing stuff. However, I do belive that your logic is flawed. I liked OJ as a football player, but was he innocent of killing his wife because he could play football? Or what about that Michael Jackson character. That dude is an awesome musician and dancer. Does that mean he is innocent?
No offense, the discussion here has less to do with climbing and more to do with personalities. Actually, I think brianinslc brought up a good one! Dangle, live and let live. Life is too short to have so much angst for so long. My guess is that bsmoot retracted his post because he is taking the high road. The road he usually takes.
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dangle
Jun 1, 2005, 11:04 PM
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Dial up sucks.
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dangle
Jun 1, 2005, 11:27 PM
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Tom's book on the greatest generation was excellent but his climbing never impressed me. That he said it or that Cabe read it in USA Today I find to be equally plausible. Tom has been relating his vision of the world for so long that I sometimes suspect that he has forgotten his obligation to make it a better place.
If Cabe wants an answer he should talk Woods into taking the test and reporting back to him.
As for Alpinist. I looked at the photo for a while before recognizing my route and it wasn't just because they misspelled the name. I was worried that it was getting old and run down but she looks pretty good to me.
Gary, you should have quit while you were ahead. At least when Cabe criticized me for refering to myself in the third person he likened me to Bob Dole, a better man than either of us, rather than say Charles Manson.
Ofcourse I could have wireless internet and be typing this left handed while holding a knife and hiding right outside your front door.
Made you look!
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dangle
Jun 1, 2005, 11:29 PM
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Tom's book on the greatest generation was excellent but his climbing never impressed me. That he said it or that Cabe read it in USA Today I find to be equally plausible. Tom has been relating his vision of the world for so long that I sometimes suspect that he has forgotten his obligation to make it a better place.
If Cabe wants an answer he should talk Woods into taking the test and reporting back to him.
As for Alpinist. I looked at the photo for a while before recognizing my route and it wasn't just because they misspelled the name. I was worried that it was getting old and run down but she looks pretty good to me.
Gary, you should have quit while you were ahead. At least when Cabe criticized me for refering to myself in the third person he likened me to Bob Dole, a better man than either of us, rather than say Charles Manson.
Ofcourse I could have wireless internet and be typing this left handed while holding a knife and hiding right outside your front door.
Made you look!
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golsen
Jun 2, 2005, 12:44 AM
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Ron,
it is very impoortant that you not read stuff into what I wrote. Somebody was saying they were on your side because of your routes. My point was that was a form of hero worship seen in the press on a daily basis. I do not have any beef with you. Sorry you took it that way. Keep climbing and don't let this stuff bring you down. Was that a dull rusty knife? Probably used on many walls to open cans and keep the good bivvy spots away from your paartners?
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dangle
Jun 2, 2005, 1:00 AM
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Gary, there have always been more knives than firearms in my arsenal perhaps because my knife wound (through the wrist) was more serious than either of the times I was shot. In any case the breadth of the selection allows for far greater specialization.
But thank you for the patronizing allusion to my HAVING any partners.
And the rust was a nice touch.
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golsen
Jun 2, 2005, 1:10 AM
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so perhaps another story from ya? I would like to hear more stories of the history of Zion....
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dangle
Jun 2, 2005, 1:12 AM
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I think that this year instead of donning the pirate costume again (speaking of the Department of Redundancy Department, Chris Boskoff summited Everest again on Sunday and Charlie Fowler as I type this is flying to Pakistan to go to Gasherbrum again) I'm just going to put a line of black tape across my door and post a sign that says you must be less than this tall to ride Michael Jackson.
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dangle
Jun 2, 2005, 3:05 AM
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Took time out for the Eagles concert. First time I've watched network for more than news for years. Glad to see they're still rockin. We should compete...
Since either dial up or r.c.com (or both) have serious systematic flaws it should be apparent that I posted my alternate Halloween tactic without seeing Gary's request for more Zion Climbing History stories.
Well Gary, how can I refuse?
(This should teach the guy to be careful what he asks for. Think I'l take a while....)
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 2:13 AM
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favorite line from the Eagles concert:
"We can do as many farewell tours as we want as long as we number them..."
Don Henley
So our next Zion story begins in March '76 when a young man barely of age arrives in the main canyon after already having blown his mind visiting the Kolob fingers. He is as much attempting to escape the shadow of a famous father as he is running down a dream.
This dream has something to do with splitter face cracks but even he isn't sure exactly what it is.
But splitters he finds; a nice one on the north end of Red Arch but too shaded. Then he sees one sunnier and right above the road before the second to last turn. He free solos suspect but moderate terrain 100 meters and then starts bolting to the crack, a 200 meter system just left of a deep arch like right leaning corner.
That's when his Pinto gets made by the park rangers.
You see on the way our protagonist had made friends with an attractive young woman working at Colorado National Monument just after leaving Yosemite and her boyriend, one John Dill of the Yosemite SAR.
Already he had created problems with the NPS with one CNM ranger griping about "stealing" 'their' women.
A memo had actually preceded him to Zion where it had also been shown to a regularly visiting climber Scott Fischer who would for 20 years joke about it with the subject himself described as "a climber and a nuisance" almost as if the two were interchangeable.
I'm going to leave this a cliffhanger, open a bottle of wine and cook up something good.
If there are requests for more I'll continue, but its a roller coaster.....
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golsen
Jun 3, 2005, 3:16 AM
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Well well....I vaguely remember as a young climber reading something in some rag about some "nuisance climber" having problems in CNP.....Could it be?
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 3:44 AM
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It was a 5 year old bottle of Sebastiani and fettucine with fresh clams and mushrooms and artichoke hearts in extra virgin olive oil with garlic and fresh ground pepper.
Thank you for asking.
I don't know what CNP is but yes he had already spent time on the Monument, some of it climbing and some in other pursuits.
Are you sure you want this story Gary? Anybody else??
Time for glass 3.
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golsen
Jun 3, 2005, 3:56 AM
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Well yes Ron. I always wondered how you ended up in Zion. My bad CNM not CNP...
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 4:26 AM
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Well I didn't say it was me but I'm notorious for that and who knows what else. Anyway posting seems to be as problematic as ever so I'll keep it to short installments.
Our protagonist has now been made.
Nonetheless he gets up half the wall surviving a fall that nearly decks him. This sets the hook and despite completing FAs on both the Diamond AND El Cap (who were the 4 to precede him in this dual first?) within a few years he is a confirmed and recognized desert wall rat. Both he and Fischer rack up numerous firsts, a few even together.
In '80 he completes the wall first attempted with the Terrier. It doesn't go well nor does the following effort on Moses, but there are lots of other potential partners, some even brought by the Terrier himself.
The early eighties are highly productive climbing years and with success (not to mention the acquisition of a nascent gun collection) comes a degree of resolution and mutual respect of his father.
On 5/25/85 he gets an early call. His father has suddenly died.
More??
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epic_ed
Jun 3, 2005, 5:47 AM
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Definitely. That's what this thread was all about. It's good to return to it's original intent.
For the record -- Ron, I sincerely hope you get to the bottom of who propogated the anitsemitic garbage on your property, and who was behind the sabatoge of your rope.
Ed
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bsmoot
Jun 3, 2005, 2:01 PM
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Dangle said: In reply to: sheer idiocy of Brian Smoot who suggests that because I'm a secular jew I shouldn't object to swastikas placed outside my house
In my old post I never said anything about swastikas...this was completely misinterpreted and embellished. I have the upmost respect for the Jewish religion and I don't agree with what those kids did.
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 2:28 PM
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Brian you are nearly as two faced as your friends.
Do I need to lift your PM to me intact or are you prepared to show some small trace of honor and cop to your own poor judgement?
YOU OWE ME AN ACCEPTABLE APOLOGY. Did your father not teach you how this is done????
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golsen
Jun 3, 2005, 6:10 PM
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sheeesh......here w go again. I suppose more than 1/2 page of civility is way too much for this thread......
Ron, I am honored to consider bsmoot as one of my friends and I do not think I am 2 faced. I would bet that there are fair number of climbers in Utah who consider him their friend...Are you missing conflict in your life? The internet is a safer place for conflict than absconding with the rangers girlfriends.....
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 8:12 PM
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Gary, a little touchy aren't we?
Brian's two faced friends include the father of those turds who claims putting swastikas outside the home of a jew is his "first constitutional right", or Cabe who turns his nametag so it can't be read, or Jones who is so offended at being (rightly) called a liar that he refuses an opportunity for the very check he demands when it requires a polygraph.
Oh yes Gary you may in a large group but look around a little more carefully and you might not be so pleased.
And by the way, Dill wasn't a ranger and she had already dumped him and rebuffed the advances of the rangers at CNM.
Keep straddling that fence Gary, but anyone I admire would ask some hard questions before defending such scum.
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craterlater
Jun 3, 2005, 8:13 PM
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Mr. O ... I know not much about you but I have read through many of these post. It is clear that you are looking for some sort of justice for the wrongs you feel have been done to you. Some of them have been cruel and hateful shots at your heritage and I can understand your outrage. But I'm curious. If the tables were turned and you were the one being asked for an apology what would you consider to be sufficient?
I have lost track. You have a beef with Dean and Dave because you believe they are connected in conspiring to defame you and suspect them (both or one?) of trying to set your rope up to fail, correct? But what is your beef with Brian Smoot? Why does he owe you an apology and what if he did offer one that was acceptible in your eyes? Would it be enough? Must there always be some score to settle? Are there really that many people out there who have the ability to offend and control you like this? Face it, there are some real dicks out there. I'll bet that sometimes you're even one of them, too. Have you made ammends to all those you have harmed? If you insist that others entirely capitulate and grovel for your forgiveness, you're very unlikely to get what you seek. Take your own inventory first, sir.
And then try to find some good help from a counselor or psychiatrist that can help you with your paranoid delusions that all of these characters are conspiring againsts you. I'm sure they are not without fault, but it sounds like you try to read between way too damn many lines and then conveniently assume the worst. Stop being a fucking victim. Do you think you're the only Jew to have experienced anti-Semitism? Out of all the Jews you know who have had to deal with this crap all of their lives, who do you think has handled it the best? Does it make you a better man to be hostile and vendicitve and vengeful? Does it bring honor to your ancestry? Or are their others who have set a better example?
I have a feeling that you are a good man, but you make it look like you have the coping skills of a teenage boy.
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 8:46 PM
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Mr. Later,
or is that Freud or something. Do these persecuted jews you admire deal today with the kind of mean spirited vandalism that costs tens of thousands or threaten their very lives. Do tell! I would like to hear more
Yes it does make me a better man to stand ground I'm entitled to. And yes I try to make ammends to those I have truly wronged and do so generously.
As for what constitutes a proper apology. My dad wasn't around much but he was enough to teach me this: admission of wrongdoing, expression of regret, assurance of nonrecurrence, and sufficient ammendment.
Is that a definitive enough answer for you?
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 9:18 PM
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I still await Brian Smoot's confirmation that in a PM he suggested that a secular jew shouldn't object to swastikas.
Sheer idiocy!
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craterlater
Jun 3, 2005, 9:59 PM
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Is that what you are waiting for an apology for? It's an opinion, not an attack. Not slander. Not an insult to your heritage. Granted, it's an ill-formed opinion and not one that I share, but it is an opinion, nonetheless. This is the type of victimization I'm talking about. So he has a differing point of view -- so what! You may not like that opinion, but he owes you no apology. Just because you're butt-hurt by someones comment doesn't mean they owe you some sort of ammends.
You most definitely have a right to stand your ground for that which you believe. Those who damaged your property should be brought to justice, and if it involved Nazi symbols then it might even constitute a hate crime. But from what you have written in this forum, you have very little evidence to point the finger with such strong conviction. Reading between the lines and drawing conclusions based on much conjecture is a dangerous practice. What if you are wrong? What if Dean's kids were acting entirely on their own, out of their own stupidity and hate, and Dean had nothing to do with it? Based on your most recent challenge, it looks like you are so conspiritorial that you think that because Dean and Dave know each other that this must mean that Dave was in cahoots to plan and cause the vandalism. That's just sick. Plain, twisted, sick and faulty logic coming from the mind of a paranoid man. Could it be the anger and resentment in your own heart that leads you down this road paved with red herrings?
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 11:05 PM
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I still await Brian Smoot's confirmation that in a PM he suggested that a secular jew shouldn't object to swastikas.
Sheer idiocy!
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dangle
Jun 3, 2005, 11:19 PM
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What if? What if? WHAT IF???
Mr. Later you assume much. What if there's other information it does me no good to broadcast. You are bold indeed to render opinions on subjects you may know little of. Bolder still to do so from remote anonymity.
Of course if we met you might not be surprised by who the f__king victim turns out to be, so at least you're not as stupid as Brian.
But that's not saying a great deal.
To the rest;
posting with these system problems is too time involved and lacking sufficient call for the story it will be suspended indefinitely.
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golsen
Jun 3, 2005, 11:20 PM
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In reply to: Gary, a little touchy aren't we? Brian's two faced friends include the father of those turds who claims putting swastikas outside the home of a jew is his "first constitutional right", or Cabe who turns his nametag so it can't be read, or Jones who is so offended at being (rightly) called a liar that he refuses an opportunity for the very check he demands when it requires a polygraph. Oh yes Gary you may in a large group but look around a little more carefully and you might not be so pleased. And by the way, Dill wasn't a ranger and she had already dumped him and rebuffed the advances of the rangers at CNM. Keep straddling that fence Gary, but anyone I admire would ask some hard questions before defending such scum.
Me touchy? I don't think so. I must admit if it were'nt for the needless slander and obviously deep feelings you have about people I know, I think I would find this thread entertaining (in a perverse way) without the stories. But I guess I am kind of sad we can't play in the sand box all together. That's how the rotten Navaho crumbles, so to speak.
Straddling the fence? LMAO. Sorry Ron, I guess I didnt know I either get off the Rodeo Fence on the one side and go home, or jump down into the horse manure on the other. I kind of like it up here...
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flamer
Jun 3, 2005, 11:30 PM
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In reply to: FAs on both the Diamond AND El Cap (who were the 4 to precede him in this dual first?)
Jim Beyer, Royal Robbins, Layton Kor....the 4th one is killing me!!! I'm going to guess....Bob Kamps???
And Ron where EXACTLY do the original pitch's of Pervertical Sanctuary go?? The ones on the Lower east face.
josh
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dangle
Jun 4, 2005, 12:48 AM
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These system problems suck!
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dangle
Jun 4, 2005, 12:53 AM
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Billy Westbay and Jimmy Dunn, Beyer came after me on both rocks
Between Grey Pillar and Shining Slab
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dangle
Jun 6, 2005, 4:28 AM
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For the better part of a year Brian Smoot has been taking shots at me on both s.t.com and these forums but now is strangely silent. Instead his buddy fronts for him about what a great guy he is.
What a coward.
Brian, did you say it or not?
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brianinslc
Jun 6, 2005, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: ...who turns his nametag so it can't be read
Interesting slant. Well, ok, not that interesting. If I recall correctly, I looked down and saw that my badge was not visible, and I turned it over so you could see who I was. Was kinda funny in hindsite, though. Your change in demeaner.
As far as your name calling, well, like Chris H. said when you walked into his booth and made a rude comment about me, "consider the source".
Yep.
Brian in SLC
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dangle
Jun 6, 2005, 9:23 PM
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Interesting recollection. You didn't HAVE to look down and didn't.
I was the one who looked.
A change in demeanor is justified for someone who floats a smoke screen for a hate crime without exploring the other side. I hope the AAC appreciates all the help you've done for them and apparently wish to continue.
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scottharms
Jun 6, 2005, 9:39 PM
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What happend to "Zion Climbing History"? There has been no history for the last number of pages of this thread. Would be nice to hear some more about the history.
Cheers
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brianinslc
Jun 6, 2005, 9:48 PM
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In reply to: Interesting recollection. You didn't HAVE to look down and didn't. I was the one who looked.
Yes, you looked, then I did. I was surprised that you were so pleasant, given some of the, uhh, pm's we traded. So, when I saw you lookin' at my badge, I looked down, saw it turned over, and flipped it. Wasn't my intention to start out that way, but, at least I got a few minutes of nice conversation.
In reply to: A change in demeanor is justified for someone who floats a smoke screen for a hate crime without exploring the other side.
All attempts at exploration of the other side were met with dark and murky. Thought I could make a difference, maybe help bury the hatchet, but, seems I just whizzed into the wind. Lessons to be learned, perhaps.
In reply to: I hope the AAC appreciates all the help you've done for them and apparently wish to continue.
No. It is I who appreciate them. Its nice to try to give a little back, if possible. I like the direction they seem to be trying to go. Kinda psyched about it, actually. Sorry I missed Ouray, sounded like a good time.
Brian in SLC
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dangle
Jun 6, 2005, 10:31 PM
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Tired of these system problems.
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dangle
Jun 6, 2005, 10:32 PM
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What attempts occured before you posted your lame excuse???????????
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dangle
Jun 7, 2005, 5:07 AM
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Still waiting on simple definitive answers from both Brians (but expect BS.)
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phillipmikerevis
Jun 7, 2005, 2:54 PM
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this thread is f'ed all to h
where is the zion history????
dangle has taken it over and treated it like all of his routes
a contrived hack job
get a life you fuckin wanker
its dangles world the rest of us just live in it
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atg200
Jun 7, 2005, 4:51 PM
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could a moderator please split the idiotic pissing match stuff off into a different thread? it is such a shame to lose so much good stuff in a mire of crap that no one except the folks involved care about.
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flamer
Jun 7, 2005, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: could a moderator please split the idiotic pissing match stuff off into a different thread? it is such a shame to lose so much good stuff in a mire of crap that no one except the folks involved care about.
Whatever...you over moderating, egomanical, overzealous, sportclimber hating bastard!!!
That's my way(in the spirit of this thread) of saying HEY! Andrew!!! What's up man?? We got's to climb some rocks and drink some beers!! In Zion!!(see it's related).
josh
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bsmoot
Jun 8, 2005, 1:05 AM
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In reply to: What happend to "Zion Climbing History"? There has been no history for the last number of pages of this thread. Would be nice to hear some more about the history.
O.K. since Crack in the Cosmic Egg on Mt. Moroni is a seldom done classic, I'll tell about the first ascent.
It was the night before our climb. My brother Jonathan and I were wandering around Springdale, in the dark, looking for a place to sit down and read. In 1982, the place was dead... one little hotel lobby was all we could find...at least we could sit. Our proposed new route was the East face of Mt. Moroni, a 1,000 foot high, 1/2 mile wide, jagged ridge of dark red sandstone running from the Court of the Patriarchs to Lady Mountain.
A rope hung off the first pitch from our previous attempt, which had ended when a loose block crashed down onto our rope, nearly cutting it in half. The first pitch was classic mixed climbing...inobvious aid moves interspersed with occasional mandatory free climbing. I was amped, the second pitch started with a deep, perfect splitter--about ¼" to ½" wide-- that shot up through ever steepening waves of beautiful orange and brown rock. The pitch went well and I belayed in slings. At the end of the overhanging pitch 3, Jonathan had to switch cracks. Balancing between a scary hook placement and a tied-off pin that wouldn't quite hold 100% of his weight, he painstakingly got in a bolt and made it to the belay. The haul line hung free. I then led a clean 3/4" crack until the gear was gone...Wow! What a pitch! Not quite trusting the rock, we had decided to put in a trusty old Star drive-in bolt at each hanging belay.
The sun was now setting and we knew we were close to a possible bivy ledge. It was the 5th pitch and Jonathan got stuck with another tricky section...a shallow, horizontal down-sloping crack that ended in a short blank section. After several tied-off wide pins, he had to gingerly hang off of the tip of a 2" bong in poor rock to place another hurried bolt. Well after dark, he reached a poor bivy ledge..."Off Belay!..Jumar When Ready". As I was cleaning, I heard a low grinding sound, then Thump! A rock had just careened off the back of my head. Neither of us had worn helmets. I could feel my warm blood dripping down my back and into my underwear. Dazed, I joined Jonathan on the ledge. Not feeling like eating much, I climbed into my hammock and spent a very long night on the badly sloping ledge, quite envious of Jonathan, who had a talent of being able to sleep soundly about anywhere. In the morning, I couldn't remove my hat...the dried blood just kept it stuck to my head. To this day, I still have a small bald spot on the back of my head. Being a bit rattled, we decided to go down. Since we had finished our last lead on a traverse, we had to rap straight down the steep, blank face, constantly reminding each other not to drop the bolt kit! As we drilled, we were constantly floating out into space.
For our next attempt, I couldn't seem to get Jonathan to come back. He was getting married. He decided to make something of his life...be responsible...stable and productive! For me, I was nowhere near this level of maturity. I needed someone more unstable to rope into this project. I gave Les Ellison a call: "Hey Les, Shaka…Brian!…Shaka Bra. Wanna climb a classic new route in Zion? O.K.". It was late spring and the heat was starting to become a factor. The morning of the climb we had decided to not fix any pitches. We were just going to go for it. I took the pitches my brother led (the 1st, 3rd & 5th) so I could see what they were like. On the 4th lead, Les let out a shriek of excitement as he took in the exposure…It was great to be back! We got to the bivy ledge with 2 hours of light to spare and decided to call it a day. We were now armed with 3 sets of Friends (including half sizes) and something new…PORTALEDGES! Mike Graham had the first commercially-available ledges. We were both the proud owners of them. So Les drills a hole at the end of the ledge for hanging his portaledge and pounds in an angle. It doesn't go in all the way, so he keeps pounding…and pounding…and pounding. Finally he gives up and just clips his ledge into the eye of the pin which protrudes out nearly an inch. He lies down to rest. I yell "LES! THE ROCK BELOW THE PIN IS CRUMBLING!"…. "NO!!! (his shout echoes across the whole canyon.) "Sorry Les, just joking".
In the morning, we finished up most of our water and got going. We brought 1-1/2 quarts per man per day, which was typical for back in those days. Les led up past a small tree to a beautiful diagonal 1½" crack splitting the textured upper face. The crack then abruptly widened to a shallow chimney. A few grunts to get through the offwidth section and it's "Off belay". I then lead the 7th pitch up a great hand crack through more rippled rock. A short, smooth, holdless chimney led to a belay at the base of an improbable wide chimney topped with a big roof. Like one of the "X" men, Les bridged his way up this deep, bottomless slot to where he plugs a bomber cam in up under the roof and he's off to the belay…a neat perch. The 9th pitch is yet another hand crack…this time in a perfect corner. On the last steep pitch, leading out of an alcove, Les had to pound several short/thin KB's under a roof. The second pin wouldn't go in very far. Neither of us could believe it was holding his weight. The crack blanks out a bit. Les starts drilling like a human Bosch. After clipping the bolt he gives me his laughing-at-death smile. Soon he is on top. "Shaka Bra!". There were impressive views of Mountain of the Sun and Jacob. We enjoyed a short rest…too short…better get going.
As was the norm in those days, you didn't rap back down your route. Dehydrated, we scrambled up and west to a pine tree. We rapped down to the top of some steep loose slabs, then carefully descended with our heavy packs to a brushy gully which erupted into the impressive east face of Jacob. We hiked & bushwacked north to a pass overlooking the East face of Lady Mountain. There used to be a park service trail heading up the southeast face of this big formation, complete with ladders & handrails. Back in the 50s, the trail was closed due to its danger. I managed to find the exposed, faint trail. We hiked and down climbed as fast as possible in the fading light, eventually reaching the bottom. I guzzled some murky water from a stream. Gail, Les' wife was there waiting for us. When Les arrived, he toughed it out and waited for some clean water. "What a route!" "No kidding!… That was the no jip" Now we could finally bask in the success of our climb…we had succeeded on our descent! Yes that's right, a Zion climb isn't complete without the standard tenuous descent! Next, we enjoyed a great dinner--must have drank about ½ gallon of water. The next day we had a spirited ride home: "Remember that part of the climb? Etc, etc. We arrive in Salt Lake.… Now it's time to get responsible…be a productive member of society…be practical…sensible…stable…Yeah Right!
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golsen
Jun 8, 2005, 2:05 AM
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Good Job Bro! I can see Les now. He must have been psyched. Almost surprised he didnt do more down there...
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golsen
Jun 8, 2005, 2:50 AM
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dangle, didnt you have a story about you and Les driving somewhere you werent suppose to? If memory serves correct it is funny as hell...
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phillipmikerevis
Jun 8, 2005, 3:57 AM
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thank you mr smoot
that was way more entertaining than a short man standing on a tall box pounding his chest
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dangle
Jun 9, 2005, 12:17 AM
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Yes I'm over the top on this, a bit too obsessed. But if you were the target of prejudice you might be a bit more tolerant.
Some might find it hard to believe but there are some people who would prefer to just sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist.
However I'm more often described as a short man standing in my top step pounding on absolutely nothing.
As for telling stories of FAs; for decades I wrote up the routes I put up, but since I pretty much concentrate on soft desert sandstone it has resulted in me being able to watch my earlier routes erode substantially. This is a troubling consequence. When I first did the original route on Cerberus Gendarme without carrying a hammer in '81 I figured that that was all it took to preserve climbs.
Silly me.
The mere placement, weighting, and removal of "clean" anchors along with "soft" rubber and rope cuts have resulted in damage that makes me wonder if sandstone lines can retain their viability.
Add to that gumby wannabes (who admittedly generally just erode the starts, but "ankle biting" is another threat to routes). Some people don't want to bother learning aid skills progressively so they jump on an "easy" wall only to discover its a bit more spooky and exposed than they expected. Their anxiety can often eclipse their inclination to preserve the line and its devil take the hindmost.
Then there's the party that gets hit with rain while high on a route and pushes on.
So what's to be done?
Jones would have us believe that routes shouldn't be "intended" to last. His impact reduction strategy is to not publish but merely to leave topos in the visitor center. There is actually some good sense to this in terms of mitigating traffic, but there is nothing in this plan that would make climbs last for a larger number of ascents it just strings them out a bit.
For more than 12 years I've refrained from writing up the routes I've put up. This is not a solution either. Already some of them have had "second" first ascents and been retrobolted.
So while its fun to reminisce what is the end game? Doesn't anybody care about the implications of this consumptive legacy? If what we do is not conducive to sustained use how do we justify such an irresponsible posture?
Its fun and we got there first???
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atg200
Jun 9, 2005, 12:31 AM
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sorry to clutter the thread up some more.
In reply to: Yes I'm over the top on this, a bit too obsessed. But if you were the target of prejudice you might be a bit more tolerant. Some might find it hard to believe but there are some people who would prefer to just sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist.
the thing is, i don't know you personally and i don't know any of the people you are claiming wronged you either. most of the other folks interested in this thread don't as well. how do we pick a side? you of all people should see why judging anyone based on a bunch of words is a fool's game.
i respectfully ask that you guys settle these differences in private. i am about as interested and involved in your troubles with these folks as you probably are in my bastard ex-roommate who didn't switch over a phone bill when i moved and got a collections agency to come after me, or the time someone threw a beer bottle at me in brooklyn.
now, ranting aside. anyone have a story about the altar of sacrifice? that is a wild looking wall, but i couldn't find any info at the visitor's center outside of the miserable looking ridge enchainments up there. anything else kinda obscure like that?
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dangle
Jun 9, 2005, 3:17 AM
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Mr. 200, as you may recall I started with history in this thread. Imagine your bastard ex-roomate or the bottle chucker showed up and started sniping.
As far as the Altar of Sacrifice goes Brad Quinn did a route somewhere on the east side. Some rocks are aesthetic to look at. Some are aesthetic to climb. Its a good idea not to assume that the former indicates the latter. His route bore this out.
Anybody have any thoughts on extending route viability.
One of these days I'll relate Les' big offroad adventure. Its not as amusing as Les would have one believe since he caused a bunch of damage at the test site and then split.
The sherrif could tell from the tracks that I never went in there, but he knew that when I said I didn't know Ellison's name that I was lying, so I caught some heat for not ratting him out.
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golsen
Jun 9, 2005, 3:57 AM
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dangle, I never would have asked about the offroad adventure if it is going to drag anyones name through the dirt......
Route viability? The questions in your other post and this one are as you know, very difficult. You have far more experience with that in Zion's than anyone I know. I also think it is a fair and far reaching question to ask.
When I tried cerberus the first time about 22 or so yrs ago, you yelled at me when I reached for the hammer :oops: ...Now some would have taken insult with that, I learned. I was doing the wrong thing. I am relating this story because for all of your cantankerousnous, IMHO you had a good idea about route preservation when you did that route way back then and it is ok to tell other climbers when they are messing things up for the rest of us.
I have no idea how the placements are holding out, but I can imagine that route is not the same as it was in those days. I think I even used an RP or two on the first pitch. My guess is that the thinner the placement, the worse for wear and tear. The tcu and cam cracks should be fairing pretty good. Unfortunately, everything us humans touch seems to get messed up (no matter how minor) with our slightest touch...welcome to humanity. All anyone can do is their best....
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atg200
Jun 9, 2005, 3:41 PM
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i just did touchstone for the first time not long ago. beautiful route, and totally enjoyable. in general, i was pretty surprised by the excellent condition of the route - it didn't look nearly as beat out as other popular towers or walls i had done. aside from one or two placements over the roof on the second pitch, everything looked like it would hold up well over time.
has the size of the crack changed over the years on touchstone? its funny how routes can change so much but still seem relatively pristine to folks seeing them for the first time. a couple of years ago i did phantom sprint on echo tower in the fishers and was amazed by the beautiful clean splitter cracks. i sprayed about it on climbingmoab.com and questioned why on the first ascent of the tower that line wasn't done instead of the huge bolt ladder in the north chimney. crusher came back with a story about the second ascent - apparently the crack was so mud choked that his partner took a huge winger on sketchy gear where i found a very easy C1 splitter crack. hard for me to imagine what it looked like then when it looked so pristine and natural to me now.
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dangle
Jun 9, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Once climbs get "broken in" in the Fishers they can prove quite enjoyable even after FAs that were nightmares. Since I generally only climb my own routes I've passed on these strange formations.
The original first pitch of Touchstone (to the right of the ladder) probably would not have supported current traffic. The second pitch (which originally started with a free traverse) now starts with a crack that took knifeblades. Repeated nuttings (more the removal actually) and cammings have widened some of the spots to 5cm. Although still viable I decided to add drilled angles. What would these spots have looked like before the DAs would have been necessary anyway?
But while this tactic can protect critical wear points the "cure" could be worse than the disease.
The thin aid cracks from the top of the ladder to the midstation on the second pitch is the most vulnerable section of the route. What will they look like in a few more decades?
Because of the traffic this route could set the stage for the future of Zion climbing.
If indeed there is a future.
Perhaps granite climbers hence will look at us like the buffalo hunters of the late nineteenth century.
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dangle
Jun 9, 2005, 7:41 PM
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We are now one third of the way to 100,000 views.
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brianinslc
Jun 9, 2005, 8:26 PM
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In reply to: The original first pitch of Touchstone (to the right of the ladder) probably would not have supported current traffic. The second pitch (which originally started with a free traverse) now starts with a crack that took knifeblades.
I've only done the original pitch. When did the first pitch variation get done? Seems like its more of a straight up bolt ladder, and, hence, probably a bit easier a start than the original? Sort of got a kick out of the railroad spike... Still, I wonder if the variation has helped increase traffic. Seems a more straightforward and convenient place to start.
In reply to: Repeated nuttings (more the removal actually) and cammings have widened some of the spots to 5cm.
I wonder about your definition of "hammerless" and think that if the second was encouraged to carry a hammer, and lightly tap on a nut tool to unseat these stuck stoppers, wouldn't that be less wear and tear? As opposed to such methods as (cough cough) clipping the stopper to a harness (body cleaning?), and jugging past, thereby ripping it out of the crack.
Also, wouldn't advocating the use of nuts with more surface area contact, instead of (cough, cough) low surface area nuts such as Omega Tri Nuts, be better? Might result in less fix pieces too, perhaps (but as long as they were freebies, but, someone's going to booty them).
Did very much enjoy the Aid Climbing video. Pure joy to watch Jeff free climb. Good stuff.
In reply to: Although still viable I decided to add drilled angles. What would these spots have looked like before the DAs would have been necessary anyway? But while this tactic can protect critical wear points the "cure" could be worse than the disease.
Straightforward C1 versus essentially a bolt ladder. When the C1 starts wearing out and becoming C2-ish, and, less user friendly? I dunno. Will slow down the traffic a bit. Maybe that's not a bad thing. Might also cause some heavy handed-ness too. That'd be not-so-good.
In reply to: The thin aid cracks from the top of the ladder to the midstation on the second pitch is the most vulnerable section of the route. What will they look like in a few more decades?
I wonder which is worse? Repeated cam placements, or, stoppers with as non-aggressive cleaning as possible (light hammer tap on nut tool?)? I can imagine heavily bounce tested cams, with any shifting, are going to wear down the sandstone probably quicker than a slotted nut placement. Unless the nuts get welded in and require some beating to remove.
In reply to: Because of the traffic this route could set the stage for the future of Zion climbing. If indeed there is a future. Perhaps granite climbers hence will look at us like the buffalo hunters of the late nineteenth century.
Then a mud slide closes the road. Or, a huge hunk of cliff spalls off. Or, they break new ground for another campground, visitor center.
I think there's a long future for climbing in Zion. The damage from use (overuse, abuse) is probably hard to quantify taking a whole route into consideration. And, much slower than repeated iron use. Deep cracks probably don't suffer near as much as shallow pods from stopper and cam placements.
Hmmm. Does sorta make me wonder. Even free climbing, with many repeats over the same terrain on soft rock, will show some widening of cracks (ala Incredible Hand Crack gettin' a bit bigger over the years, for instance).
I think especially popular sports climbs on steep limestone change character much quicker than the sandstone in Zion. Polish. Anything done to mitigate crack wear might seem pretty artificial, and hence, a bit unpalatable (ie, adding fixed pro to high wear spots and/or an industrial coating to preclude wear).
Maybe a case of taking the (not so) bad with the (most excellent) good? Good fodder for thought, though.
Brian in SLC
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dangle
Jun 10, 2005, 3:20 AM
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In reply to: If I recall correctly, I looked down and saw that my badge was not visible, and I turned it over so you could see who I was. Brian in SLC
(cough, cough)
Crap Crap crap
You turned it over without looking.
What were the attempts you made that were met with "dark and murky" before posting on roughster's thread and posing as a disinterested third party? (A good enough reason for a "demeanor" change)
As for the last post;
"(not so) bad" is when someone ELSE is confronted with the mess that you and other short sighted climbers leave them.
But my guess is after the park service has to rescue a few more gumbies they'll use rock damage to ban climbing there.
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atg200
Jun 10, 2005, 4:11 PM
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jesus! no more personal pissing matches in this thread! we don't care!
why do people bounce test on touchstone? i think there are really only one or two placements worthy of it on the whole route. i don't bother bounce testing 80% of the placements i make on sandstone in C2 or easier and i've never fallen as a result. i doubt my ascent had much of an impact at all. on the other hand, bounce testing stoppers in that sandstone is going to have a huge impact - especially if not carefully cleaned.
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cracklover
Jun 10, 2005, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: i don't bother bounce testing 80% of the placements i make on sandstone in C2 or easier and i've never fallen as a result. i doubt my ascent had much of an impact at all.
I believe you were not the only member of the party. :lol:
As the other member of your party, I can tell you that I bouce tested many (most) of my placements on the wall because:
1 - I was (and am) an aid newbie, and
2 - I was (and still am to a lesser degree) unfamiliar with Zion sandstone.
To flesh out my second issue: all rock accepts gear kind of differently, and until you've placed a few hundred pieces in different kinds of placements, different sorts of cracks, etc, you don't really know how gear and rock will interact. For example, in gunks conglomerate and polished granite, my experience has been that ball nutz are absolutely bomber, and barely need a tug to set 'em. However my experience in Zion showed me that some thin cracks under the varnish level will simply spit out a perfectly sized ball nut in a wash of sand, at right around body weight.
Conversely, my experience with polished granite has shown that tricam placements in perfectly parallel sided cracks, and cam and offset nuts in flaring cracks would sometimes slide right out with a little change in pull direction. However in Zion, I found that cams and offset nuts in flaring cracks were bomber. I presume that tricams would have been excellent in parallel cracks, too, though I avoided placing any because of concern about the nose of the tricam messing up the rock.
So this is just stuff you learn about the rock. Until I know the rock, I bounce nearly every placement.
GjustanothernewbiemessinguptherockO
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atg200
Jun 10, 2005, 6:40 PM
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hey gabe,
didn't want to use you as an example of what not to do, but you volunteered ;) you certainly didn't need to bounce test more than a handful of your placements - they were all absurdly bomber. for you, it was a mental thing and i don't blame you since it was your first wall. but i still think my passage on my pitches left no impact - i didn't bounce test anything on that route.
perhaps the ethic on easy sadnstone trade routes that accept perfect cams or stoppers should be that bounce testing bomber gear is frowned upon like camhooks and nailing. its an unnecessary impact.
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cracklover
Jun 10, 2005, 7:23 PM
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I'm a baaaaad boy! I'll be good now. Or something.
Sooooo, how 'bout those stories?
GO
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funk29
Jun 10, 2005, 7:28 PM
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Climbing is anarchy.
Here is a bit of kolob history
Schoolroom Pin Puller, uses pins to put up FA in Kolob/ZNP!!! This just in the notorious Schoolroom pin puller, Bolt Chopper/ Andrew Christensen used the three and a half stolen pins to put up a grade VI, FA in Kolob Canyon/Zion National Park. Last weekend the maverick climber Andrew Christensen and the mysterious big wall legend “Shaggy” put up a nine pitch 400-meter route on the North Face Wall of Kolobs, South Fork of Tayor Creek. Their Route “Stolen Pins VI 5.10 A4 D + r/x PDW(pretty damn western)” is directly across from the southern facing Lowe-Wilford project (see note below). It starts of mellow with an 80ft overhanging 5.10 hand crack what was originally a free climb called “Grandpa Stadg.” From the route follows a 60 meter pitch thin that contains 30m of camming beaks on an angled crack. Because these pin pullers apparently only had a rack of a set of nuts, 9 “Bootied cams”, The Three and a half Schoolroom pins (TTSP) and , six beaks that were also reportedly stolen off of a “serious nailing pitch somewhere on the Titians, Finger of Fate route. Because Andrew only has a small rack, (all of which is stolen except for the set of nuts that he didn’t purchase from REI) there are several of the 60m pitches that required leapfrogging of pins. Caution would be climber’s belays are reportedly suspect because of the large amounts of spinners as well as obnoxious accessories bolted to the wall. Like a soupspoon at the belay, a kitchen cabinet knob on one of the rivet sections, and at least one crushed Mt. Dew can used at a washer at each belay. This route is with out a doubt the hardest techo aid route in any of the Kolob Canyons and receives the Jim Beyer rating of A4 D +r/x. Andrew is quoted at saying; I was really inspired by talking with Beyer after he got off of Martyrs Brigade (a new route on El Cap.) I really wanted to duplicate a route with a pitch similar to his ‘8ft duct taped to ice axe hook move off a loose block...but I didn’t bring my ax so I had to lasso a small bush instead… with my cordelette and the TTSP’s tied on for weight to toss the line…I was already 40 feet into the A4 D section, looking now at a 75 foot ledge fall for sure, so obviously, it was not as hard as Martyrs Brigade, and besides, my biceps aren’t as big as Jims anyway.” “I was really scared on that pitch dude, Like, I almost messed up my golden ponytail man… that’s not cool..I’d lose my sponsers for sure” Notes: I: The National Chapter of Crack Bolting Gumbies (NCCBG) is currently proposing an effort to retro bolt this danger to the climbing community. The president Godd Harding “I think it is evil to use crushed Mt. Dew cans instead of washers while placing a Rawl 5 piece.” One cedar local was overheard talking about the ascent- “that dude [Andrew] is so sick.. I’m gonna start stealing pins so I can climb hard just like him—I heard that there are at least 4 left in the schoolroom roof…” II: Some one currently has been sieging this prized project into submission over the last 6 moths. There are currently ropes fixed 4/5th of the way up this route. These ropes will hopefully be chopped soon. P.S. There are no fixed pins on this route.
Updated By: funk29
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dangle
Jun 10, 2005, 8:18 PM
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funk29 you lost me after a few paragraphs. I disagree respectfully. Climbing is not nor should it be anarchy even if you spell it incorrectly. For one thing the law of gravity is strictly enforced. Other laws of physics too.
Crowing of stolen gear suggests you may have less regard for less universally enforced laws but wasn't this conversation about how to preserve routes?
What happens to routes with a long string of tenuous placements? Do you care?
Gabe You ARE a bad boy! If I'd known when we went climbing the next day you would have gotten penalty slack but then again wasn't it MY rope? More importantly bounce testing is hardly the only erosional behavior.
OK everybody's gotta learn, but why do they have to do so on one of the finest climbs I've even seen in 30 years in the desert. I think routes like Touchstone and Moonlight should be considered such treasures that they should act as showpieces where good climbers can show their stuff, climbing easily and employing a light touch.
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funk29
Jun 10, 2005, 8:25 PM
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yea about the spelling...I can always use some help...Mark Twain might have been a good climber, and he was a great story teller.
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grayhghost
Jun 10, 2005, 8:27 PM
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http://www.utahclimbers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=212&start=0
"I heard (second-hand) that he was involved in an accident. He was hip-belaying someone up a railroad trestle without an anchor and fell 60 feet. He broke many bones in face, hip, pelvis, and arms. His expected recovery is 6-9 months."
"Yep, this is true. I spoke with a very close friend of Andrew's the other day.
As much as I agree that Andrew's bolt chopping and arrogance were distasteful the guy was a ball of energy who attacked climbing with a devotion and philosophy that was very hard core. It's sad that it happened but there is also that ironic kharmic element . . ."
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brianinslc
Jun 10, 2005, 8:33 PM
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If'n folks are curious, here's what the Schoolroom Pin Putter Inner looks like:
http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/886.jpg
Foto by bsmoot...
In reply to: Crowing of stolen gear suggests you may have less regard for less universally enforced laws but wasn't this conversation about how to preserve routes?
Andrew was kind enough not to steal my pins. While I might disagree with his logic for pulling them, he didn't do it to steal them. Left them in a nice little pile at the base of the route.
As a bonus, Andrew thinks Ron looks nice in tights.
In reply to: I think routes like Touchstone and Moonlight should be considered such treasures that they should act as showpieces where good climbers can show their stuff, climbing easily and employing a light touch.
Thats a great idea. Putting into practice might be tough, though.
Interesting how things all weave together...gosh, almost "community-esque", eh? Ha ha.
Brian in SLC
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cracklover
Jun 10, 2005, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: Gabe You ARE a bad boy! If I'd known when we went climbing the next day you would have gotten penalty slack but then again wasn't it MY rope?
Penalty slack? Hah! With me interfering in your day with Julia, I wasn't even counting on a catch! I was soloing with a rope, baby!
In reply to: More importantly bounce testing is hardly the only erosional behavior.
Indeed. In Zion, I saw a couple of straight in nut placements that were *not* bounce tested, yet were still the hardest nut placements to clean I've ever come across in six years of climbing. brianinslc's suggestion of a tap with a hammer seems like an excellent suggestion, when the alternative is either fixed gear or In reply to: such methods as (cough cough) clipping the stopper to a harness (body cleaning?), and jugging past, thereby ripping it out of the crack
In reply to: OK everybody's gotta learn, but why do they have to do so on one of the finest climbs I've even seen in 30 years in the desert. I think routes like Touchstone and Moonlight should be considered such treasures that they should act as showpieces where good climbers can show their stuff, climbing easily and employing a light touch.
Oh, I put in some time on choss first. But that gets old pretty fast, y'know? And when you live on the east coast, and can't afford more than one, or sometimes two, trips out west per year... well, what would you do?
Anyway, I'm perfectly happy to talk about my own little failings, if they're of that much interest, but I came here to listen, not to talk.
GO
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nailbomb
Jun 10, 2005, 10:09 PM
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how about some history on what happened with the "theft" of the first ascent of desert shield? i heard that the route got scooped after the initial FAists fixed the first bit.
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dangle
Jun 11, 2005, 12:00 AM
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Silly me. I thought "stolen pins" meant that they actually were...
Sorry Gabe, but being present wasn't a problem, even if I WAS trying to make time with someone 28 years younger than me (which would be a good 3 years over past efforts).
I like Julia. She reminds me of my little sister, and is fluent in even more languages and climbs a lot better. I actually just got an email from Julia yesterday from Belgium. She included a summit photo from Sheep Dome with her, me, no-one, moabeth, and victorkgb.
PM me your email address and I'll send it to you along with Dead Horse Walking.
As for clean/hmrls; carrying a hammer JUST to clean might be good in theory, but it leaves the door open wider for "fear pounding" and also for destructive rapation of needed fixed gear. I've discussed the concept of fixed nuts with recognizably distinctive thick cables used in the most vulnerable spots. This would mitigate removal as a destructive factor but lacking stricter controls booty greed would render this tactic futile.
As I've said before carrying a hammer just to tap loose nuts is clean, but hammerless is better since it demonstrates a greater commitment.
In retrospect body yanking probably wasn't too well thought through but after I led the second pitch Megan couldn't remove even ONE nut! Cams ARE easier to clean than weighted nuts, but they tend to pivot on the two deepest cams with the shallow ones causing the spot to flare. Some placement spots have flared so much from cams (so small they didn't even exist when I first did it hammerless) that NOW you can't even nut these spots effectively and one is forced to continue camming.
I repeat; my guess is that after they rescue a few more gumbies the park service will use rock damage to justify closing Zion to climbing.
Of course they wouldn't in the exceedingly unlikely case of climbers actually agreeing on and doing something effective to deal with the problem...
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flamer
Jun 11, 2005, 1:57 AM
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I know that Andrew(at least) is laughing with me on that one.......
josh
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dangle
Jun 11, 2005, 4:05 AM
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She had nice things to say about you too Josh. (Although no-one and I got on her case for the way she treated Julia.) I hope Andrew got my PM. The system went caput (again) right after I hit submit. I'll send a copy to Gabe.
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moabbeth
Jun 11, 2005, 5:39 AM
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Josh-
I was going to cut and post a quote of Andrew's at the top of this page about how "no one here wants to hear your pissing matches" but it's conveniently deleted. Why don't you boys practice what you preach and don't start pissing matches. And leave me out of your conversations on this site.
Congraduations. I haven't posted on this site in a year...until now cause Ron said you were starting shit. But this is a fire that needs to be put out before it starts. I have better things to do than get into online wanker wars with the two of you. I'm nobody, I'm not worth your trashtalk time. So leave me be. :roll:
Hope you get out and climb something fun this weekend that gets all that negative energy out of you. Flame away with the other people here who will put up their flame throwers to yours. But I ain't going down that road. Would be nice if you did the same.
As for me, I'm going climbing :wink:
over and OUT!!!
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flamer
Jun 11, 2005, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I know that Andrew(at least) is laughing with me on that one....... josh
If that was starting shit or even talking it then I'm a monkey's uncle!!
I didn't say anything bad...did I? Or did I recount what myself and others have experienced(with beth)?? NOPE!!!
I know my opinion's....and I didn't express them(here anyway)....
Laughing all the way......
josh
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bsmoot
Jun 13, 2005, 5:01 AM
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nailbomb wrote:
In reply to: how about some history on what happened with the "theft" of the first ascent of desert shield? i heard that the route got scooped after the initial FAists fixed the first bit
Salt Lake climbers Drew Bedford & Tim Stack made the first complete ascent of Desert Shield. They are both friends of mine. They said there were no fixed ropes hanging off the route at the time of their ascent.
Eric Rasmussen, who worked on the lower pitches of DS went on to climb some very impressive grade VI's on Twin Brother, Isaac and the amazing north face of Lady Mountain...next time you hike up to Emerald pools, you'll see what I'm talking about.
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dangle
Jun 13, 2005, 5:50 PM
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Yesterday in Zion Canyon was REALLY something.
At a time of year when one expects triple digit highs yesterday's breezy 82 was an unexpected treat. I drove up at 7:15 with the top down and had to use the heater! In the afternoon shade and wind I wore a third (albeit thin) layer until things calmed down around 18:00.
Did a new variant, Tiptoe Through The Crypto.
Any new thoughts on how to climb in Zion without destroying the rocks? Was it Nietzsche who said "man always kills the thing he loves".
How civilized!
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amber
Jun 14, 2005, 12:57 AM
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In reply to: We are now one third of the way to 100,000 views.
... that's because it's an interesting read. ;)
on conserving much-cherished zion routes, i think the idea of establishing ethics that they be reserved as show pieces is a good one in ways, but there's also the reality that most climbers (well, the ones who i know anyways) dont always exactly appreciate the notion of being regulated.
moreover, as an aspiring climber, it would mean climbing less of the routes that keep me motivated and excited about climbing, or to climb lesser-frequented, more obscure routes that could also pose greater danger to my young climbing self due to limited information on said routes - and while i do enjoy the prospect of eventually climbing more obscure routes, the only way that i know of to acquire the skills and experience to safely ascend something with limited information is to hone critical skills - both, obvious technical skills and more esoteric skills like route finding, rope managment, safety (rockfall potential, etc), reading the weather, judging a route's difficulty against my ability without endangering my life or that of my partner, evaluating fixed gear, understanding how to safely bail if things go sour, and so on, is through climbing lots and lots of trad routes, then moving onto more popular trade routes where the ante is upped but information is still abundant.
i can acquire some of the technical skills through sport climbing, which ignites the beloved ethics debate, and other skills will come through good old fashioned trad climbs on granite terrain - but limiting myself to nothing but weekend cragging until i have the skills and experience of those of you who've been climbing for a decade or two isnt of much interest because then climbing becomes pretty pointless to me. that's not to say that i'm planning a trip to reattempt moonlight anyday soon, but there will ultimately come a day when i will want to re-enter adventure climbing and perhaps do a wall in zion, and i'm not sure of a way to promise that this ascent will be completely without impact unless a) i find a mentor who will train me in the ways of relentless perfection and can help me gauge my readiness for a flawless ascent or b) i just climb the damn thing when i feel like i'm ready and see how it goes. perhaps like gabe, i will test things that probably didnt need to be tested simply because i'm nervous. perhaps i'll have to sandblast a nut to get it out because i'm mostly used to cleaning them from granite cracks. perhaps not.
hopefully, i will find a good mentor who can help me navigate the learning curve so that the first wall that i send will be with superior style and ethics, but i have yet to find someone with the time and energy to impart such knowledge. hell, just posting beginner questions on rc.com gets a rise out of people sometimes - and let's face it, experienced climbers who are eager and willing to indoctrinate a climbing n00b like myself into adventure climbing and teach them the required technical skills, all of the esoteric stuff, along with impeccable style and unquestionable ethics that are often debated amongst more veteran climbers are few and far between. i'd learn how to brew/keg beer and buy a cattle ranch to provide a limitless supply of beer and grilled steak if i could find such a mentor, but the reality is that i'm doing good to find a group of regular partners and a couple of people to provide feedback on things like gear placements and rope management. more often than not, beginners are told that climbing is something that they just need to learn on their own, which i'm willing to do, but it also means that mistakes will be made along the way - i'm not trying to justify anything by saying that, just trying to be realistic. everyone has to learn somehow.
anyways, as a beginner who was brought into climbing by a group of people with STRINGENT ethics, conservation is definitely something that i consider - but there also becomes a point where it becomes too overwhelming for a beginner to navigate. i KNOW that i'm not terribly efficient and that i'm probably not doing everything in the best manner possible - but do i stop climbing until i've read every book ever published on the subject? do i wait patiently and post on the internet begging for someone to teach me - or do i just get out there, and do what i know and learn what i can? should i become a martyr for something that i love? even if i do, would it matter to anyone but me? do i limit myself to weekend cragging in boulder canyon and avoid daydreaming about routes that i long to do someday so that other people can do them instead of me? is there a metric where i can accurately measure my ability to cleanly ascend a trade route with positively no impact without going somewhere and impacting something? even if i go to indian creek to hone sandstone crack skills before getting on another wall or tower, i'm contributing to the wear and tear of an area that's already suffering from overuse. if i go to the swell to learn in a less impacted area, then i'm getting in over my head and exploring unknown terrain without the experience to necessarily make the best judgment calls. where's the line? where do i acquire the skills to someday send the things that i want to climb without feeling guilty about it?
anyways, the list goes on, but from a beginners perspective, therein lies the problem. give me a mentor who will very thoroughly train me with superior style and ethics, and i will be ALL over it. tell me what to do, and it shall be done. until then, i will continue doing the best that i can.
ps. i think it was leopold in "a sand county almanac" - "man always kills the things he loves, and so we the pioneers have killed the wilderness. some say we had to. be that as it may, i am glad i shall never be young without wild country to be young in."
from ed abbey, "We can have wilderness without freedom; we can have wilderness without human life at all, but we cannot have freedom without wilderness, we cannot have freedom without leagues of open space beyond the cities, where boys and girls, men and women, can live at least part of their lives under no control but their own desires and abilities, free from any and all direct administration by their fellow men."
PPS In reply to: then I'm a monkey's uncle!!
And one final PS - my opinion of flamer's status as a monkey's uncle is based solely and purely on the fact that i think he's one big ball of goofy fun and couldnt resist the temptation to send a fun-loving cyber-jab.
whew. sorry about the unyielding rant. ethics and conservation are things that pique my interest, and i often feel at conflict about how to learn things with minimum impact - and as i've just demonstrated, i'm quite capable of driving myself crazy over it. :)
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dangle
Jun 14, 2005, 5:59 AM
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I was invited to a wedding this month and I already bought a gift off the registry. I went down the list until coming to an item that I'd actually always wanted for myself. I figured that in the (unlikely) event of cold feet (a trip to New Mexico perhaps??) I was GOING TO KEEP IT FOR MYSELF!
I have this sneaking suspicion that you actually like the two most important BEEs. No I'm not talking about John Belushi in a bee costume with Mexican style ammo bandoleers across his chest (but he would certainly be third!) I mean BEEr and BEEf. (See? I even prioritized!!)
Been a while since I thumbed through Aldo's work. Must've been cool when jaguar stalked the Colorado delta.
There's no easy answer here. You raise some good questions though, some of which I've already considered. I'm a libertarian so I think my freedoms should only be limited by those of others, but I'm NOT a utopian. In fact I'm probably real world enough to the point of cynicism. As a climber I know how strong the desire for freedom is and that's PRECISELY why I feel we won't solve or even slow the problem without a HIGHLY intrusive (not to mention costly) remedy.
Or we just destroy the rocks and erosion of the routes is no longer a problem.
About a century ago people began to realize that some hunting practises were having a profound negative effect on wildlife populations. Laws and regulations were enacted in an effort to preserve hunting for future generations.
At first there was a terrible outcry. "We've been hunting a long time. We don't need other people telling us what to do..." yada yada yada.
Today most hunters acknowledge that the fish and game reserves are bounteous enough to demonstrate the success of costly and sometimes inconvenient management protocols. They know that people cannot often be counted upon to be responsible on their own.
And even endangered species can be brought back from the edge of extinction and restored to populations large enough to use hunting as a management tool.
But on climbing routes all damage is cumulative.
River runners now (mostly) submit to heavy regulation. SCUBA divers need to be certified to get their tanks filled. There are other examples.
Do I like it? Hell no.
Do I understand the need for it?
Unfortunately..........yes.
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dangle
Jun 25, 2005, 8:03 PM
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Soooo......
near two weeks go by and not a bite on that little dose of reality.
And here I am sitting at the keyboard after a flick, countless hydrocortones for a bad tooth and nursing an oversize Del Dueno. The weather isn't conducive for going for a ride and I'm too wacked anyway so the thought comes to me....BULLSH ah er.. another tale from that blank on a map, the land time forgot, the fabled red walls of Zion.
There are a bunch of young bucks out there that can barely restrain themselves from those very rocks but for the turbidity of the Rio Virgin and the triple digit highs. Dare I taunt them with an account from when power drills were legal and the walls more virgin and beckoning?
WTF Why NOT?
Like many Zion tales, this one begins out of state.
Its the end of '84. After the debacle described earlier in this thread I have returned the horse trailer I borrowed 70 miles away to get my mule to haul loads and finally recieved my tax refund without which I was financially grasping at straws while with Pey and Strassman. In fact the night before I had stayed at Strassman's in Mammoth and then driven to Oakland for the AAC meeting.
It was there that (among many others that included the like of Becky and Bonatti) I first met Earl Redfern.
Earl would be my partner on the T-bird which after we finished it would constitute my longest desert climb.
But that was September '86. Lets back up to returning the trailer and paying my bills. To celebrate my 30th birthday in midJune I made my usual rendez-vous with Dave Mondeau outside Moab. I had brought my dad's Winchester Centennial figuring that it was the most appropriate day of all to try out a thirty-thirty.
Not having Jones running out of the bushes with toilet paper streaming (private joke, remember the Oct. '81 trip) allowed me a string of accurate shots.
We then headed down the Horsethief Trail to Mineral Bottom.
The mosquitos were relentless so we tented and smoked despite the heat. Above us a slim buttress remained in the shade making it our objective. The next day we fixed two vertical to overhanging pitches and as we descended the talus to the tent a wafer of rock gave way and I sustained a substantial ankle injury. Therapy all night allowed a continued attempt but our success was not without cost to Mondeau as well. Cleaning a nut too vigorously resulted in a messy head wound. When we hiked out me limping and Dave all bloody it must have looked as if we were coming home from a war.
Unfortunately years after we put up Mineral Canyon's first route Earl and his partner would both leave the same canyon feet first.
end part I
Want more?
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skinner
Jul 7, 2005, 9:03 PM
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UMMMM.... YESS!!!
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dingus
Jul 7, 2005, 10:09 PM
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Please post up Dangle.
DMT
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dangle
Jul 8, 2005, 1:07 AM
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Mineral Canyon became one of those geographic focal points. I would use the boat ramp to launch my motor canoe upstream to attempt Abbey Tower. The juxtaposed landing strip served for aerial recon to find the back door to Hell Roaring Canyon as well as to shuttle back to the boats for trips through the Labyrinth en masse.
It was on such a shuttle in April '94 with Mark Bowling and Mark Schoening as fellow passengers that I had my closest call so far in then more than 27 years of uncomfortable experience as light aircraft "freight". As the legendary Pete Schoening and family members watched with fear we landed hard in a gale force quartering tailwind at the Ruby Ranch "airstrip".
Earl wasn't that lucky.
In thin hot summer air he couldn't climb and clipped a wing on a wall of Mineral Canyon. He died with a fellow pilot. It took a while to find the wreck.
But in October '84 I bagged the FSA of the Leaning Wall via a new route and then, trapped in Hell Roaring by record snow, capped it off on Halloween with the FA of the Witch.
When I met Earl a month later in Oakland I was becoming a climber addicted to sandstone while Earl had dreams of Baffin, but we kept in touch and my courtship with what would become the T-bird next involved my courtship with "the Lynn Hill of Whitewater", Joy Ungritch.
We met when I returned to the point between Mineral and Taylor Canyons. Ironically after going to the trouble of hauling a canoe 380 miles to cross less than 380' of river the previous year climbing Horsethief Tower I discovered that there was a tower on the easy to reach side!
Joy and I headed out to recon the tower on borrowed horses but the tactic was curtailed by what appeared to be an effort of my mount to kill me.
The third time that the horse reared up and fell on its back I wasn't successful in falling clear. My right thigh was pinned between saddle and ground. Still I hopped onto my good leg and never lost the reins.
Then I solved the mystery.
With Joy holding the horse I pulled the saddle and revealed a nasty bite. It turns out that the wrangler for the friend of Joy who was putting her up at his ranch resented the attention that she had immediately shown towards me so selected my mount "special".
I've saddled horses since I was a kid, but now I ALWAYS saddle my own.
The whole thing backfired on the amorous but rebuffed wrangler. Joy nursed my purple/green/yellow thigh as well as neighboring anatomy.
Two days later I limped up to the tower using a cane to suplement my massive charliehorse hematoma. Five foot nothing Joy carried all 70lbs of gear on a back made remarkable by 12 years of guiding for Sobek. I then aided the entire first ascent of what we named Charliehorse Needle with Joy laughing at my groans from below.
I later debated with the wrangler the endurance of my mules at home with his favorite Arabian. The guy's name was Price Parker and he claimed to be some kind of familial missing link between Bonnie Parker (Bonnie & Clyde) and Robert Leroy Parker (Butch Cassidy).
Yeah right! And I'm the grandson of the Tsarina of Russia and Jack the Ripper.
Anyway, years later I heard that the Arabian had thrown him, stepped on his head and took off his ear. Really! Its true. I heard it (he probably didn't though...) Never did get to make and send him that modified earmuff.
Some weeks later and back in Utah Joy went up north to to get some things for my place. Just before heading back south she had lunch with a client who had become a longtime friend. During the meal she found that Edward Abbey was already acquainted with my desert forays and so wanted to meet her new boyfriend. That was the closest I came to the author of The Monkeywrench Gang. In May '89 weeks after his death Mondeau and I finally climbed the tower he had floated past with Joy five times and named it for him.
The evening after her lunch I suggested that our next climb should be huge north wall on Timbertop....
End Part II
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sandman
Jul 8, 2005, 2:46 AM
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and then what happened?.....
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rockprodigy
Jul 14, 2005, 4:58 AM
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Enquiring minds wanna know!
BS, I recently read your rightup in the 85 AAJ on the "Smoot-Ellison" it looks like a rad route!
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mikemachineco
Jul 14, 2005, 5:38 AM
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rockprodigy, how about the story of freeing Spaceshot? Well done, by the way. Your Lowe Route story was great so I'm sure people would love to hear the Spaceshot story.
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bsmoot
Jul 14, 2005, 5:50 AM
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In reply to: BS, I recently read your rightup in the 85 AAJ on the "Smoot-Ellison" it looks like a rad route!
Yeah, it's a great climb...with the exception of Moonlight, it's the only wall in Zion I've done twice. The route rarely gets done.
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rockprodigy
Jul 15, 2005, 12:25 AM
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How about that 1/2" - 3/4" splitter? That sounds free-climbable to me!
I'll give you the spaceshot story eventually, but don't hold your breath...it's summer...I'm climbing!
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dangle
Jul 15, 2005, 11:19 PM
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Dingus is a good man and I trust will forgive the delay for inking part three:
When I did my first roped climb (37 years ago tomorrow) suffice to say that I had much to learn about women and the mysteries of both.
That summer however saw some ah errr.... milestones (yeah THAT was the word I was looking for, never mind that it was Switzerland and they'd be kilometerstones).
When I got home with a sly look on my face my mother wanted to know what I'd been up to. I claimed it was the climbing....
But from then on the idea of doing a long multiday route with somebody I didn't mind sharing a sleeping bag with became a recurring fantasy.
Now a mere 17 years later the realization comes to be.
Still a bit gimpy from the horse I admire Joy's gumption and pluck much like my little jenny Duchess which packs 230lbs of rope, beer, pitons, bivy stuff, nuts, beer, bolts, cameras, beer and so forth with Joy leading her through most of the 2.5 mile approach. Joy also packs nearly twice the loads I do the final quarter mile.
It takes her a matter of minutes to largely master the intricasies of jugging pendulums on the first pitch and actually truly enjoys the exposure as we climb higher. She manages to figure out everything she needs to right down to safely relieving herself.
What a partner!
There we are on a cozy ledge hundreds of feet up a big virgin wall. The alpenglow is illuminating a hanging forest below and east of us. The food is good. The weather is good. The bugs aren't bad. The beer is even cold. The weed is tasty.
Absolute heaven. Paradise.
Just what I dreamed about?
Well not exactly. Both of us are crusty and smelly from two days without washing, but worse we're both beat, especially the guy that was doing all the leading AND hauling.
Too tired to do justice to my first true intimate wall bivy we go through the motions but Joy mercifully suggests she give me a rain check.
Wish I'd got it in writing...
I have to give her credit. She got nearly halfway up the wall before admitting that she might have bit off more than she could chew. It was OK by me. I had added some convenience/belay bolts and cleaned out the cracks and removed loose rocks. I wanted to take the time to create a high quality climb so coming back to enjoy the benefits of my efforts was appealing.
We were both a bit short on time with guiding obligations, me in Colorado and her all the way in Alaska.
We went and got Duchess in my "new" little trailer.
Come July we had temperatures of 117 (was 115 yesterday) and when Joy got back from Alaska there was a new man in her life.
Like I said, wish I'd gotten it in writing.
End part III
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skinner
Sep 2, 2005, 11:18 PM
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My theory on why the Aid Climbing Forum seems to have lapsed into a comatose state, used to be that maybe all the aid climbers were umm.. busy climbing?
But after re-reading this, "Zion Climbing History" thread, into the wee hours of the morning, I came to the conclusion that no matter what effort has been made since, to start an interesting thread.. sadly everything just pales by comparison.
I actually do have a legitimate question(s) here.
I was wondering when the season starts/ends in Zion?
Other the standard classic routes that come to mind, I was wondering if anyone could toss in a few names (possibly a short description) of some good but not-so-well-known/seldom-climbed, aid/mixed routes?
Would be greatly appreciated
PS: if anyone has another story to tag onto this thread I'm sure many of the Zion History junkies are experiencing withdrawals by now and could use a fix :wink:
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dangle
Sep 3, 2005, 12:10 AM
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Still too hot for anything but shaded routes.
I've been meaning to finish up the T-bird story. 19 years ago EXACTLY the late great Earl Redfern and I were preparing our final bivy on the FA. The next day we made the summit and prepared for the descent that nearly caused the demise of the SECOND ascent party.
To my knowledge there has been no third....
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skinner
Sep 3, 2005, 4:58 AM
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I live in Canada and am already thinking about sharpening up the ice tools soon, so I honestly have no idea when the season starts<--->ends in your area. Could you be a lil more specific?
Too bad that, by the time the temp. is reasonable enough for climbing, the days start getting so short.
OK.. now that you've "dangled" the T-bird story out there for all the Zion buffs..
Please do tell?
The route carries even more intrigue since it has only seen two ascents. Is it that bad?
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climbhigher
Sep 3, 2005, 11:27 AM
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Hey, Skinner. I have only climbed few of the very well known and sounds like crowded climbs in Zion. So, My hands on experience is limited.
With that said, It seems like every line you see from the road has been climbed even if the line does not have a name. And these climbed lines are pretty long. Obviously, Ron Olevesky would know alot more about this.
I never have had a problem finding adventure in Zion. Even Crossing the Virgin River in the spring with a full haul bag is a full on adventure. Could be the crux of any route on that side of the river.
Oh yeah, I tried to solo this route left of Swimp Gimp or be Dust and had this supposedly 5.8 pitch fall off after one hand jam. When I say fall off, I mean almost the whole pitch fell off. That was fun. Obviously, the First Accent went up a thin seam and then left . He (the F.A.ist) saw this other way to go and it looked like it would go at 5.8, so he put it on the topo and just marked it 5.8 without mentioning the way he went. That was exciting. And then another pitch follows a very thin knife blade seam. But, it's a little contrived considering you could hook on the less then vertical face on the left all the way to who knows where?
Who knows maybe i was off route and i was high when i started hooking instead of using the Knife blade seam. I was just kind of glad it started raining, so I had a excuss to bail and never come back to that route. Some buddy bootied a nut, and two baby angles equalized with a 5mm cordalette and a nice Locking biner all of which i was happy to give up. Full on adventure for sure. Did I mention that Zion Rock will almost melt when you put it in water? Zion is the REAL DEAL!
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skinner
Sep 3, 2005, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: Did I mention that Zion Rock will almost melt when you put it in water? Zion is the REAL DEAL!
I grew up learning how to climb on our local little set of sandstone bluffs, and am familiar with how soft and.. looking for the word here, "friable" ?
Ok.. how sh*tty it can be. I remember many instances of falling through the air still clutching a detached handhold. The first route I ever put up was on sandstone and no longer exists since and entire section (including a crazy six foot overhang that was only 6" thick) collapsed and now resides on the valley floor.
(I am actually heading out there today.. after a few more coffees)
But.. this place is made up of the really light colored sandstone which in some area's resembled hard-packed mud, more then stone. I am sure that the quality varies in Zion much the same, but I had always thought that the really dark/varnished stuff.. is actually fairly descent.. for sandstone?
Still hoping that someone will give me an idea of the climbing season there, i.e.: months?
And.. I can't be the ONLY one that is waiting for the "T-bird story" ??
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dangle
Sep 3, 2005, 4:05 PM
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ch,
what source were you using on your topo? This makes a critical difference. Some of the topos in the visitor center have been jonesed by crusaders and/or wannabes. Let's just say that what appears there hasn't ALWAYS been confirmed by actual ascent in the manner proscribed. It certainly wasn't one of my routes that you were on.
Your observation about the crossing of the river to be the crux sounds vaguely familiar.
skinner,
the season for WALL climbing in Zion is September thru June depending on variables too numerous to list. It is also possible to be comfortable on certain routes at other times. Summer highs can reach 50C and winter lows can hit -10C. If your route requires river crossing or is in a nesting area this can make spring ascents problematic. Besides rock made worse by precipitation people have also fallen victim to lightning, floods, invenomation. dehydration, poor routefinding, poor judgement, heat stroke, hypothermia, rockfall, unstable routes, and being too close to idiots.
Have a nice day. :lol:
Perhaps after a meal more substantial than the croissant 3+ hours ago I will pen the next installment of the T-bird if I get a request without a wiseass "dangle" crack since, after all, it takes a lot of effort to type with only one finger.
"Don't be foolish. You're taking the fall."
Sam Spade, The Maltese Falcon
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skinner
Sep 3, 2005, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: skinner, the season for WALL climbing in Zion is September thru June depending on variables too numerous to list. It is also possible to be comfortable on certain routes at other times. Summer highs can reach 50C and winter lows can hit -10C. If your route requires river crossing or is in a nesting area this can make spring ascents problematic. Besides rock made worse by precipitation people have also fallen victim to lightning, floods, invenomation. dehydration, poor routefinding, poor judgement, heat stroke, hypothermia, rockfall, unstable routes, and being too close to idiots. Have a nice day. :lol:
Thanks for the info dangle, greatly appreciated!
Looking through your list...
ummm.. "invenomation" doesn't sound good at all :shock:
In reply to: Perhaps after a meal more substantial than the croissant 3+ hours ago I will pen the next installment of the T-bird if I get a request without a wiseass "dangle" crack since, after all, it takes a lot of effort to type with only one finger.
C'mon you guys.. T-Bird Story???
See ya later [GONE]
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dangle
Sep 3, 2005, 5:22 PM
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These Canadians are so gracious, eh?
"C'mon you guys.. T-Bird story??"
(Time for a Robert DeNiro quote. Hint; think taxi driver..)
"Don't be foolish. You're taking the fall."
Sam Spade, The Maltese Falcon
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dangle
Sep 3, 2005, 10:36 PM
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Gabe,
give me a break. Donna hasn't seen me for a whole day, and the kids want help with their homework, and the yard needs work, and blah blah....
The route's been around for a full 19 years (as of 6 hours ago) so the story can simmer. I was only going to add part IV , the latter '85 attempt with Kirk Miller.
You didn't think I was going to wrap it up THAT quick did you. Besides, shouldn't you be out clogging the roads this weekend or something?
Let's hear about Space Shot.
Can you use sling belays on a "free" ascent??
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moose_droppings
Sep 9, 2005, 6:52 AM
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Another vote for T-Bird.
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dangle
Sep 10, 2005, 8:01 PM
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Too bad I missed the going over 40,000 threshold but I was out having too good a time (so good I can't write about most of it).
I'll get around to part IV soon but have stuff to catch up on. Suffice to say that after 5 days on the wall Kirk and I came down, both with sides more sore than on any climb before.
The reason; ...... laughter.
Speaking of which, anybody catch Jay Leno's monologue?
Why is FEMA like Baywatch? (They rescue people in slow motion.)
Someone sent me a photo called "a little Bush multitasking". In it the background was people wading through New Orleans, and the foreground was Bush Sr. with a rod along with Junior holding a bass, both with big sh__eating grins.
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dangle
Sep 10, 2005, 8:13 PM
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Aw crap! How do I correct the typo in the past two posts signatures? (The l is next to the k.)
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dangle
Sep 10, 2005, 8:20 PM
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Bingo.
Thanks.
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le_bruce
Sep 18, 2005, 7:08 AM
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I'm signing the petition: please post more, Dangle. Compelling stuff and well written.
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no_one
Sep 29, 2005, 10:00 PM
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Lets hear it!
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dangle
Sep 30, 2005, 2:38 PM
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Yeah, I've been meaning to get around to it but not right now. Still pretty depressed about Greg.
I remember how Greg (a good ol' southern boy) used to argue that we would have been better off if the Confederacy had won the Civil War. I know what he meant in terms of state's rights. The federal government has grown out of control.
Seems to directly relate to climbers since the biggest rocks tend to be the essential ingredient in "scenery". Thus most of our climbs fall within the jurisdiction of the NPS. No surprise that there are numerous incidents between dirtbag climbers and LEO rangers who, short of real criminals, practise on them. Ever notice how the worst ones are the closet wannabes?
Hey no_one, how about a story (no names or touchy details) about a few guys that want to hike a remote canyon... 8^)
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skinner
Oct 1, 2005, 4:37 AM
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I'm all for a story! (dangle)
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stroker
Oct 1, 2005, 9:30 PM
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Cheers on that statement. The only time I've had cuffs on was by a Zion ranger near the old visitor center. My buddy and I got pulled over for doing 5 over. The "ranger" asked us if we had any weapons or drugs in the car. Impulsively and foolishly, I yieled a giant Wild Country friend that was resting at my feet. "Here's our gun," I regretfully said. The "officer" didn't think I was funny, and asked us to get out of the car. Instead of hiking to the base of a route, I was leaned over the top of the car, being frisked for all to see. The funny part obout this, is this was the second time this particular "ranger" felt me up. Earlier, he searched me near the Angels Landing parking lot. I had broke down, therefore he felt he might be able to bust a "hippie climber." Both times I recieved nothing more than embarrassment, and he recieved that substitute satifaction that only men of his like need.
I must say that the most aggressive of the anti-climber rangers were in Snow Canyon. There was a ranger, hopefully not there anymore, that we dubber THE SARGE. This bloke was about 6'7" and really liked to bust climbers chops. He screamed my buddy off a lead. Yes folks, he demanded my buddy to lower immediately. I found it enjoyable to park outside the south gate and sneek in. I enjoyed the idea of not pumping more money into the park through a gate fee, when I knew the dollars were being spend unwisely and wastefully. In minutes that lazy man would spot you walking off the road. He patrolled the short strip of pavement in a brand new Dodge diesel loaded truck. I could patroll that in a golf cart and save tax dollars. Anyhow, when THE SARGE would scream for us to come his way, we would take off on foot, knowing that he wouldn't chase because he didn't want to get his cowboy boots dirty. Instead, he would park his rig and bask in the sweetness of tax dollars blowing cold air condioning in his frown of a face. Returning to our left car usually required patience and stealth like tactics. FUN! In fact, he drilled me for information on "my purpose" in Snow Canyon, while clipping his finger nails and looking down on me. That guy sucked, yet I will miss the days when I was laying on my stomache in the desert to avoid the wrath of THE SARGE.
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stroker
Oct 1, 2005, 9:36 PM
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Cheers on that statement. The only time I've had cuffs on was by a Zion ranger near the old visitor center. My buddy and I got pulled over for doing 5 over. The "ranger" asked us if we had any weapons or drugs in the car. Impulsively and foolishly, I yieled a giant Wild Country friend that was resting at my feet. "Here's our gun," I regretfully said. The "officer" didn't think I was funny, and asked us to get out of the car. Instead of hiking to the base of a route, I was leaned over the top of the car, being frisked for all to see. The funny part obout this, is this was the second time this particular "ranger" felt me up. Earlier, he searched me near the Angels Landing parking lot. I had broke down, therefore he felt he might be able to bust a "hippie climber." Both times I recieved nothing more than embarrassment, and he recieved that substitute satifaction that only men of his like need.
I must say that the most aggressive of the anti-climber rangers were in Snow Canyon. There was a ranger, hopefully not there anymore, that we dubber THE SARGE. This bloke was about 6'7" and really liked to bust climbers chops. He screamed my buddy off a lead. Yes folks, he demanded my buddy to lower immediately. I found it enjoyable to park outside the south gate and sneek in. I enjoyed the idea of not pumping more money into the park through a gate fee, when I knew the dollars were being spend unwisely and wastefully. In minutes that lazy man would spot you walking off the road. He patrolled the short strip of pavement in a brand new Dodge diesel loaded truck. I could patroll that in a golf cart and save tax dollars. Anyhow, when THE SARGE would scream for us to come his way, we would take off on foot, knowing that he wouldn't chase because he didn't want to get his cowboy boots dirty. Instead, he would park his rig and bask in the sweetness of tax dollars blowing cold air condioning in his frown of a face. Returning to our left car usually required patience and stealth like tactics. FUN! In fact, he drilled me for information on "my purpose" in Snow Canyon, while clipping his finger nails and looking down on me. That guy sucked, yet I will miss the days when I was laying on my stomache in the desert to avoid the wrath of THE SARGE.
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dangle
Oct 4, 2005, 1:58 AM
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Well stroker this thread HAS slown down enough for the number of thousands of views to excede the pages. I wonder if its because I don't have the terrier to kick around anymore. And then there's smoot the smoocher; dozens of slaps to me and one edit of flamer to respond resulting in what SOUNDS like a contradiction.
A mormon that knows his whines.
What a hypocrite. All those slaps and then HE screams to the moderators. A panty waste if there ever was one.
Don't misunderstand me I still rope up with mormons. They generally smoke up less of your weed and drink less of your beer. If no_one and I put up a route we should call it Gentile Conspiracy.
So stroker, you got felt up twice and the ranger didn't even kiss you or blow in your ear.
Typical. Slam bang and gone in the morning.
The tallest ranger I've seen there is NOT 6'7". But that would be the CR John Ibach. Since this thread has made lots of accusations of lying lets not leave out this worthless waste of taxpayer's dollars.
Even if this IS a Zion thread and Ibach runs a STATE park.
John agreed to protect a handful of my projects if I would abide by his new mgt. plan. He then unilaterally went back on his word and when I called him on it he said,"I made a judgment decision."
Well John I hope you are reading this. I'm making my own judgment decision. I say liars are worthless pieces of shite. And that includes you. All bets are off. I'll do the climbs I choose and you can stick your plan where you keep your word.
Called down someone in the middle of a lead huh? what an idiot. They must have an intelligence test to become a ranger.
I wonder where they put the ceiling?
Warren was right. I should calm down and have a glass of wine.
Leave the whine for someone else...
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jglime
Feb 7, 2006, 12:26 AM
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damn... i just read the last 20 pages waiting for the Crimes against Nature story (is that what the erased route was called? twenty pages later and I can't be sure)... and nothing. where do I lodge my complaint? it was like reading a book and not getting an ending...
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flamer
Feb 7, 2006, 8:16 AM
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In reply to: They generally smoke up less of your weed
Gee Ron didn't you state in the R&I article about you, that you don't do drugs any more?
josh
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dangle
Feb 13, 2006, 8:43 PM
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Just saw this.
Still spouting huh Josh? Just where did it say that? Quote please.
This is just another example of your twisted BS. And what was it I did to you again (besides pick up the check)?
jglime, its CLIMB Against Nature.
The story was promised under a condition not met, but you can go to DRILLED POCKETS at the taco for some background.
Although there have been numerous cases where members of the climbing community have expressed their appreciation, most have generally behaved in such a childish manner that they've laughed their way out of what might have been quite a bonus. Perhaps it might be time to, in addition, hold both their and the park service's feet to the fire in one go.
I've been trying to create both fun and durable recreational resources. We can disagree on what constitutes constructive and destructive.
But little of what has been offered falls under the heading of constructive criticism and much has been foolishly destructive.
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flamer
Feb 13, 2006, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: Quote please.
"I don't think young people should use drugs, but I smoked pot when I was 15."
Hmmm, I guess that just imply's that you don't use drugs anymore. Isn't that classic. Why Ron you should be the poster child for just say no!
So i guess you didn't say that you don't use drugs any more....specifically.
But isn't that how you tangled web's work?
What exactly did you do to me? Well nothing really except take pot shot's, so guess what? Goes both ways.
I'd still buy you dinner and beer sometime.
josh
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dangle
Feb 13, 2006, 10:51 PM
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In reply to: Hmmm, I guess ...... So I guess....
Stop putting words in my mouth !
I still don't believe YOUNG PEOPLE should use drugs. I have come to other conclusions in near 52 years as well. Do I need to take your hand and walk you through the logic of that statement? Probably not, as this is your sick idea of fun.
Who took the first potshots "old friend"????? As I recall somebody was blaming me for someone else's work without contacting his old buddy to get the straight dope (or will you likewise quote the last phrase out of context as well just to live down to your assumed name?)
I must be a fool to even address such a failure that he gets his kicks baiting people on the net. Go put up a route Josh!
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flamer
Feb 14, 2006, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: Go put up a route Josh!
Think I haven't?
I never called you an "old Friend", I called you a friend....as I said before, i consider anyone who I've drank beer(on more than 1 occasion)with, had diner with, and would do it again...a friend. Good friend? NO. "Old friend" NO.
I'm sorry Ron did you not drill finger pockets on Black Massacre?
...and you have no idea about my nickname...you've done more flaming in your time here than I.
I may be in your neck of the woods soon.... and I'd still be happy to buy you dinner and beers.
josh
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moose_droppings
Feb 14, 2006, 6:52 AM
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Wow, this post is front page again, Still (patiently) waiting for part IV of T_bird.
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billcoe_
Aug 14, 2007, 11:41 PM
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Well, it's another case of how time waits for not a one of us. (Or as Dustin Hoffman said he wants on his tombstone: "I KNEW this would happen!)
Mike Strassman, a well known climber and climbing movie maker, who posted on Rockclimbing.com as Rocknroll, and who's profile said "Sex drugs and rock and roll, is sadly no longer with us.
Maybe a reminder to all of us to measure our words well and to treat others the way we want to be remembered when we are gone.
I thought his words on Todd Skinners passing thread were particularly well placed, well spoken and welcome.
Take care all:
Bill
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moose_droppings
Aug 15, 2007, 12:13 AM
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[quote "moose_droppings"]Wow, this post is front page again, Still (patiently) waiting for part IV of T_bird.[/quote]
Still waiting................................
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dangle
Aug 19, 2007, 1:15 PM
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Well Moose, someone gave me a heads up on this, but I've been hanging out at the taco.
This place is kinda weird (and anybody that objects to that tends to re-enforce it).
Sad about Mike.
We climbed as friends in Snow Canyon in the early '90s and a few years later I ran into him at OR and he looked like he had aged a decade (obviously he had begun on the methamphetamine). He was beligerant and condescending, and seemed to take joy in an assortment of bogus rumors he had come by from his soon to be expartner in video production, McNeally (who's brother was briefly a ranger in Zion).
I heard from Peter earlier this month that it was the meth that killed him.
If if if,...
Maybe if he had been a better friend I would have bailed him out of his foreclosure like I did for another climbing partner just up the road from him. Doubtless the loss of his place sent Mike into the downward spiral.
As for the fourth chapter of the T-bird, well,..
maybe I shouldn't try to write history while its still being made.
Since this thread started Mike Anderson and Co. have made the third and fourth ascent, including the FFA.
In addition the not insignificant lightning caused fire on the rock's summit has altered the nature of the entire summit, even burning down the tree that comprised the final belay anchor.
And what's more, over seven years after his death in Mineral Canyon where Mondeau and I put up the first route in 6/84, the Earl Redfern story has taken yet another strange twist leaving our lives strangely intertwined.
stay tuned
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moose_droppings
Aug 19, 2007, 2:14 PM
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Registered: Jun 7, 2005
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Thanks Ron, glad to know you still check in now and then.
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skinner
Aug 20, 2007, 1:54 PM
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2 years, 7 months, 6 days
53,700-some views later..
still tuned
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bsmoot
Dec 31, 2007, 1:16 AM
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From Left to right: Chris Owens, Dave Jones and Brian Smoot on the summit of the Gatekeeper Wall ( V 5.10 C2)
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epic_ed
Aug 25, 2018, 9:36 AM
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Registered: Jun 17, 2002
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I haven't logged into this site in many years. With the passing of Tom Frost and Jeff Lowe today I did a Google search and some how found myself here. Among the squabbling there's an incredible amount of history in this epic thread, as told by various climbers who pioneered the climbing in Zion and other areas. In my opinion this is one of the greatest threads ever on RC.com and since it's been over 13 years since it began I felt it was worth bumping. I hope a new generation of climbers takes the time to sift through it to find all the nuggets of wisdom and history it has to offer.
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sungam
Sep 9, 2018, 5:36 AM
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
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Good bump, good thread.
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