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lemon_boy
Aug 7, 2007, 6:21 PM
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one more thing that i forgot to add, concerns the quality of the references. having worked many, many years in the science and engineering field myself, and having written and peer reviewed many, many publications, i am fully aware that it is pretty much impossible to produce a non-biased, single-variable conclusion (particlularly when hujmans are the subject). when you add up the pre-conceived notions of the research personel with the brutal difficulty of producing large sample sets that don't have all sorts of 'complications', it just isn't happening. but i imagine that you, having man, many years in the industry probably realize this too.
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jt512
Aug 7, 2007, 6:29 PM
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lemon_boy wrote: a climber who is climbing at a high level on many types of rock needs the ability to understand how his/her body will move or perform under vastly different situations.
The relevance of that sentence to the merits of training with a weighted vest is, at best, unclear.
In reply to: also, these articles tend to be biased towards activities in which going anaerobic, etc has no bearing. when a pitcher gets tired, he gets pulled. in a tennis match, there are very few timew when there are more than 10 volleys, etc. this might be too complicated for someone with many many years of sports physiology, but little climbing experience.
Throwing a fastball and hitting a tennis ball are about as anaerobic as movements get. This might be too complicated for someone with zero years of sports physiology.
Jay
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bigo
Aug 7, 2007, 7:20 PM
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I have heard anecdotally, and had myself good results by adding weight when doing certain hangboard routines. Particularly dead hangs and pull ups on larger, open hand holds. I have also heard of people hurting themselves by adding weight and doing hangboard routines. It should be obvious that training with additional weight will increase the stress on your body, which can increase strength as well as increase likelihood of injury.
It does not seem, to me, like a good idea to climb routes with a weight vest ... I would stick to controlled movements on a hangboard.
Oh yeah - I, like everyone here, have no idea what I'm talking about.
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lemon_boy
Aug 7, 2007, 7:56 PM
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jay,
regarding first point, i'm simply saying that training with a weight vest is not necessarily going to ruin somebody's climbing. a good example would be a movement in which a climber is controlling a barn door while getting to the next hold. performing this movement with some (not necessarily a ton) of weight, in the right location, could potentially increase the climber's ability to control the movement. when the weight is removed, there is a good chance that the movement will feel easier. also, for typical semi static climbing, for instance a vertical crack system, climbing it with extra weight will result in it feeling easier when the weight is removed.
regarding 2nd point. sorry about the nomenclature, i am trying to type fast today as i am pretty busy. i mean anaerobic endurance. ie, a pitcher or tennis player isn't getting pumped during their activity. i would think most of their movements would be ATP driven, and power is the key component to their performance.
out of time, gotta go!
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bcombs
Aug 7, 2007, 8:19 PM
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Jesus crimeny aerili, take a vacation....
I believe the OP stated:
"Has anyone ever climbed with added weight? didi it work? how much weight were you adding ?"
Had he asked "Can anyone cite scientific journals that clearly show additional weight in bouldering wil increase my strength" I would have declined to respond.
Since the request was for personal experience I gave mine. I'm sorry if you disagree, maybe your right, who cares? I"ll stick to the training method I'm doing now and continue to use H.I.T. training because I feel its valuable. Eric Horst is one of the leaders in training for climbing. I'll take his word for it for now. 
Hope that clears things up a bit.
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jt512
Aug 7, 2007, 8:24 PM
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bcombs wrote: Jesus crimeny aerili, take a vacation.... I believe the OP stated: "Has anyone ever climbed with added weight? didi it work? how much weight were you adding ?" Had he asked "Can anyone cite scientific journals that clearly show additional weight in bouldering wil increase my strength" I would have declined to respond. Since the request was for personal experience I gave mine. I'm sorry if you disagree, maybe your right, who cares? I"ll stick to the training method I'm doing now and continue to use H.I.T. training because I feel its valuable. Eric Horst is one of the leaders in training for climbing. I'll take his word for it for now. Hope that clears things up a bit.
Yeah, maybe she's right, and maybe you should care, because, with all your HIT strip and weighted vest training, "your" only redpointing 5.11a.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 7, 2007, 8:25 PM)
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bcombs
Aug 7, 2007, 8:26 PM
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jt512 wrote: bcombs wrote: Jesus crimeny aerili, take a vacation.... I believe the OP stated: "Has anyone ever climbed with added weight? didi it work? how much weight were you adding ?" Had he asked "Can anyone cite scientific journals that clearly show additional weight in bouldering wil increase my strength" I would have declined to respond. Since the request was for personal experience I gave mine. I'm sorry if you disagree, maybe your right, who cares? I"ll stick to the training method I'm doing now and continue to use H.I.T. training because I feel its valuable. Eric Horst is one of the leaders in training for climbing. I'll take his word for it for now. Hope that clears things up a bit. Yeah, maybe she's right, and maybe you should care, because, with all your HIT strip and weighted vest training, "your" only redpointing 5.11a. Jay
Haha, what makes you say that Jay?
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jt512
Aug 7, 2007, 8:30 PM
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bcombs wrote: jt512 wrote: bcombs wrote: Jesus crimeny aerili, take a vacation.... I believe the OP stated: "Has anyone ever climbed with added weight? didi it work? how much weight were you adding ?" Had he asked "Can anyone cite scientific journals that clearly show additional weight in bouldering wil increase my strength" I would have declined to respond. Since the request was for personal experience I gave mine. I'm sorry if you disagree, maybe your right, who cares? I"ll stick to the training method I'm doing now and continue to use H.I.T. training because I feel its valuable. Eric Horst is one of the leaders in training for climbing. I'll take his word for it for now. Hope that clears things up a bit. Yeah, maybe she's right, and maybe you should care, because, with all your HIT strip and weighted vest training, "your" only redpointing 5.11a. Jay Haha, what makes you say that Jay?
Your profile. Let me guess: it's out of date. :roll:
Jay
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bcombs
Aug 7, 2007, 8:38 PM
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jt512 wrote: Your profile. Let me guess: it's out of date. :roll: Jay
Oh, that's true. I've only logged one climb on here. I have been lucky enough to get out more and more recently. I've also ticked over 160 routes at my home crag including 5.12a. Does that make me more of a man to you Jay? Maybe I can talk the admins into bumping my post count to 13,000 so you'll believe what I say? 
The bottom line is that I gave the OP what he asked for and because of that your giving me a hard time. Tell ya what, I'll work on my profile if you'll promise not to be mean anymore.
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aerili
Aug 7, 2007, 9:09 PM
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lemon boy,
Your posts demonstrate your ignorance of what sport specificity is and what TRANSFER OF SKILL is and involves. If you do not think climbing movements are “extremely sport specific,” then you really do not understand what that term even means. Sport specific does not mean “one or two major movements performed in sport over and over,” it refers to any movement necessary in the actual performance of one’s sport. And regardless, are you honestly saying that crimping, locking off, jamming, dead pointing, chimneying, finger locking, toeing in, heel hooking, stemming (need I go on?) are not performed during climbing over and over? Are you saying that in other sports you think every pitch, every serve, every swing, every pass, every jump, every cutting motion is executed EXACTLY the same way with no regard to the changing conditions of the moment? Uh, okay. I don’t think your science and engineering is really helping you out here.
Overhead athletes are only an example; the same concept can be applied to having soccer players kick a weighted ball, or athletes sprint with a parachute on, or any athlete perform a game drill with a weighted vest/belt/etc. The emerging results are not exactly bearing out the original assumption of increased performance results. I’m not sure why you think climbers’ neuromuscular responses are so incredibly different from those of gymnasts, lacrosse players, hurdlers, etc. It’s not about the actual movement of the sport itself, it’s not about whether the movement feels “easier” after removal of the weight--it’s all about the central nervous system input with regard to muscular firing patterns. Understanding General Adaptation Syndrome and the actual science behind biomechanical skill transfer would really help people wanting to understand this concept better. You clearly do not understand it; you are making the same assumptions that strength and conditioning professionals first came up with when they implemented this kind of training. I realize it seems logical, but it’s not what we're actually finding to be the case.
Your comment about anaerobic states during sport makes no sense. Jay already pointed this out. A climber “getting pumped” is the same thing as any other athlete experiencing muscle fatigue in their given movements due to strength or power outputs. The occurring muscle physiology is the same. If you are getting pumped, lemon boy, you are definitely not in an oxidative pathway of fuel metabolism in your upper extremit(ies). Lots of sports require power/endurance combos, including tennis.
As for climbing with extra weight: you didn’t interpret what I said correctly. I said climbing with a weighted belt or vest will only make you better at climbing with a weighted belt or vest. If you’re climbing long OWs with a 20 lb rack, then of course climbing more long OWs with a 20 lb rack WILL make you better at this. But the evidence (i.e. negative transfer of skill) strongly suggests climbing with a weighted belt in place of the rack WILL NOT. So I hope that weighted belt protects your route well.
In reply to: i am fully aware that it is pretty much impossible to produce a non-biased, single-variable conclusion (particlularly when hujmans are the subject). when you add up the pre-conceived notions of the research personel with the brutal difficulty of producing large sample sets that don't have all sorts of 'complications', it just isn't happening.
I do realize this (although in some cases it is possible to have a non-biased, single variable conclusion with human subjects…certain established lifestyle disease research bears this out). You will find many websites and catalogs that still sell weighted devices for sport specific “enhancement,” but they are simply retailers who want to make money for as long as they can. There is no requirement for them to prove their product (just like the “fat burning” electrical stim devices still marketed). Despite the fact the research is still being further clarified, I stand by what I DO find in this matter: most up-to-date, credentialed, practicing strength coaches, trainers, and industry leaders, researchers, and speakers do not endorse training sport specific movements with added resistance that does not actually occur in real time performance. Doing so is not going to guaranteed "RUIN" your performance, but research is showing it appears to either impede or have no effect at all on performance. So if anything, no effect = why do it?
P.S. My pictures have nothing to do with this topic or whether or not women are capable of carrying their rack on a gear sling (that is a totally sexist and stupid comment). I actually carry my rack both ways, if you really want to know, but it has nothing to do with the weight of the rack.
P.P.S. bcombs, there is no rest for the weary! No intention to pick on ya, it’s all good. Otherwise I thought your recommendations are pretty good, although I do not necessarily buy into all the things Eric Horst publishes. I guess I was posting info more in regard to the question posed by demo: “So…will adding weight make the gains from more moderate climbs greater. And will this translate into harder climbing once the weight is removed?”
Nuff said. 
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jt512
Aug 7, 2007, 9:09 PM
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bcombs wrote: jt512 wrote: Your profile. Let me guess: it's out of date. :roll: Jay Oh, that's true. I've only logged one climb on here. I have been lucky enough to get out more and more recently. I've also ticked over 160 routes at my home crag including 5.12a. Does that make me more of a man to you Jay? Maybe I can talk the admins into bumping my post count to 13,000 so you'll believe what I say?
No, I'm giving you a hard time about giving the person in the thread who has posted the best information a hard time.
As to your question about whether climbing 5.12a makes you more of "a man to me." No, it doesn't. You still sound like a whiny little boy to me. It doesn't validate your training regimen either.
Jay
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lemon_boy
Aug 7, 2007, 9:11 PM
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Jay,
I agree with your statement that the question is probably too complicated for somebody that has zero education in sports physiology. However, given that there are quite a few trainers out there with educations in sports physiology that have advocated athletes training with added weight, thus resulting in the massive decline in performance that aerili has described, it might also be fair to state that the subject is too complicated for people with educations in the sports physiology field as well.
I didn’t do a very good job of addressing your first point. My point was that a climber could potentially broaden the spectrum of types and intensities of climbing movements with the careful use of added weight.
For the person who first asked the question about adding weight while climbing, here are several examples where I have used the tactic, or feel that it would have been beneficial.
As I stated previously, I probably wouldn’t advocate it for bouldering, or other route specific cases where there is a lot of timing-intensive movements (ie dynos).
First example
I was working on a bolted sport route, about 90 feet tall with very sustained climbing up to a difficult rest at about 80 feet. Above that is sort of a boulder problem that takes you to a difficult anchor clip. I had tried the route quite a few times, and had the movements pretty wired. I was able to climb very quickly through the sustained part, and felt like I was climbing pretty well. When I first would get to the rest, I wasn’t really pumped, but after a few moments the pump would finally catch up and it was grim. I would milk the rest for about 15 minutes, which was kind of strenuous in its own way. Then, as I would tackle the last 10 feet, it felt like somebody had put a concrete block in my chalkbag. I absolutely could not clip the anchors, and would slither off every time.
Finally, I decided to do the route a couple times with an 11mm rope tied as a trail line to my haul loop. Right off the bat, on the middle section I could tell that I really needed to get forward on my feet a bit more. The rest spot became more strenuous, and the final boulder problem was brutal. After a few tries with the trail line, I was in the same boat as I was before. The following day, I ditched the trail line, and when I hit the rest spot I felt quite a bit better. The last section felt better, and I felt a lot more confident (which was key). I was finally able to clip the anchors.
Second example
I had been doing quite a bit of crack cragging when a friend called and asked if I wanted to do a route on the diamond. The only problem was that he wanted to do it at the beginning of November. Immediately I realized that I was going to have to climb with a small pack to carry water, shoes to walk off, and extra clothes. So, for a couple weeks, I spent some time climbing steep cracks with a pack containing these sorts of items. I definitely feel this was beneficial. When I first started doing it, it felt like shit. However, as I kept doing it, I got more accustomed to it, and when we finally went up to do the route I felt OK.
Third example
This last winter, the weather consistently sucked, so I climbed almost entirely in the gym. In the early spring, we headed out to Indian creek. I decided to jump on a really long route that has a lot of cupped hands to wide fists. From the ground I couldn’t tell whether it was mostly 3 camalot, 4 friend, or 4 camalot. There were several pods to get through, so I racked fairly heavily on each size. So, between a lead rope (10.5mm), a trail rope (8.8mm) and 7 each of 3 camalot, 4 friend, and 4 camalot, I felt heavier than Black Sabbath. I headed up, and each time the rack would swing around I would curse. I just didn’t feel light and strong like I did when the draws were already hanging. I managed to eek it out, but it was pretty frazzling.
Another good example of the potential use of adding weight as a tool is angry’s trip report about climbing in peru. You should read it if you haven’t, it’s a good read. He describes his first bit of climbing with a pack as a struggle to live. Having done some alpine climbing in the past, I could relate. This is probably another case where climbing with some added weight could be helpful.
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bcombs
Aug 7, 2007, 9:12 PM
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jt512 wrote: As to your question about whether climbing 5.12a makes you more of "a man to me." No, it doesn't. You still sound like a whiny little boy to me. It doesn't validate your training regimen either. Jay
OK, just checking. Next time I'm in CA I'll swing by and you can take me climbing? Maybe some of that swagger will rub off on me.
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jt512
Aug 7, 2007, 9:35 PM
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lemon_boy wrote: For the person who first asked the question about adding weight while climbing, here are several examples where I have used the tactic, or feel that it would have been beneficial. ... First example I was working on a bolted sport route, about 90 feet tall with very sustained climbing up to a difficult rest at about 80 feet. Above that is sort of a boulder problem that takes you to a difficult anchor clip. I had tried the route quite a few times, and had the movements pretty wired. I was able to climb very quickly through the sustained part, and felt like I was climbing pretty well. When I first would get to the rest, I wasn’t really pumped, but after a few moments the pump would finally catch up and it was grim. I would milk the rest for about 15 minutes, which was kind of strenuous in its own way. Then, as I would tackle the last 10 feet, it felt like somebody had put a concrete block in my chalkbag. I absolutely could not clip the anchors, and would slither off every time. Finally, I decided to do the route a couple times with an 11mm rope tied as a trail line to my haul loop. Right off the bat, on the middle section I could tell that I really needed to get forward on my feet a bit more. The rest spot became more strenuous, and the final boulder problem was brutal. After a few tries with the trail line, I was in the same boat as I was before. The following day, I ditched the trail line, and when I hit the rest spot I felt quite a bit better. The last section felt better, and I felt a lot more confident (which was key). I was finally able to clip the anchors.
It is unclear why you think that climbing with the extra 11 mm rope a couple times helped you send the route. I doubt that a couple of laps with an extra 8 lb caused you to gain significant strength for your next attempt. The fact that you had to get your weight more over your feet is logically because the rope moved your center of gravity posteriorly. This necessitated your having to shift your weight forward when climbing with the extra rope. This is an example of added weight necessitating a change in the way the movement is performed, precisely the deleterious effect that aerili warned us about.
In reply to: Second example I had been doing quite a bit of crack cragging when a friend called and asked if I wanted to do a route on the diamond. The only problem was that he wanted to do it at the beginning of November. Immediately I realized that I was going to have to climb with a small pack to carry water, shoes to walk off, and extra clothes. So, for a couple weeks, I spent some time climbing steep cracks with a pack containing these sorts of items. I definitely feel this was beneficial. ...
So climbing with a pack on helped you climb with a pack on. This is - word for word - what aerili predicts.
In reply to: Third example
Similar to example 2.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 7, 2007, 9:35 PM)
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bcombs
Aug 7, 2007, 9:36 PM
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aerili wrote: P.P.S. bcombs, there is no rest for the weary! No intention to pick on ya, it’s all good. Otherwise I thought your recommendations are pretty good, although I do not necessarily buy into all the things Eric Horst publishes. I guess I was posting info more in regard to the question posed by demo: “So…will adding weight make the gains from more moderate climbs greater. And will this translate into harder climbing once the weight is removed?” Nuff said.
Right on man, I'll read more on the subject and maybe change my mind on weighted training altogether.
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bcombs
Aug 7, 2007, 10:08 PM
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aerili, I reread your link posted earlier and I have some questions.
First off let me say that I have no knowledge, scientific or otherwise, as to whether weighted climbing will or will not improve your strength. So, I'm in learning mode...bear with me.
In the article posted:
In reply to: Since resistance exercises (regardless of their apparent duplications) are not specific to the speed, gait and force produced in athletic events, they are useless for increasing a specific skill and an inappropriate way to contribute to a skill. Even the use of parachutes during sprinting has not been proven to optimally improve running speed since it is non-specific to the speed, mechanics, and gait of sprinting without a parachute. Those who make modest gains from such training do so because the stress overload on the muscles caused muscular strength and growth to occur. They could have received better results from a sensible strength training program and without disrupting the specifics of their natural gait.
Isn't the speed, gait, and force of climbing weighted and unweighted the same? Well, maybe not the force since you need to grip harder to stay on the same size holds, but the other two are generally the same right? See, most of the reason that I was interested in and started climbing weighted (about 8 months ago) is that I could never get a clear answer as to what strength training regimen would apply to climbing. Most people say, "The only way to get better at climbing is to climb" and I'm sure that is true, your technique gets better, your climbing base gets larger, your mental state gets better, etc... So my question is then if climbing is all that you can do to improve, how do you achieve this...
In reply to: Those who make modest gains from such training do so because the stress overload on the muscles caused muscular strength and growth to occur.
...without adding weight?
Any help is appreciated!
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aerili
Aug 7, 2007, 11:39 PM
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If additional weight is used, all factors in terms of how you move will be altered, even if it is not to a large degree. But this still results in a negative transfer of skill--it programs your nervous system to direct your motor units (i.e. muscles involved) to contract in a pattern or method that allows them to move you and your adjusted motion in as efficient way as possible, thus setting up and reinforcing new muscle memories. The late, great Mel Siff, a true ICON in the exercise and sport sciences research field, puts it this way: by simulating your exercise (in this case you are apparently simulating outdoor, real world climbing while adding resistance in a mode you don't employ when climbing in actuality), "that simulation of any movement with significant resistance is inadvisable since it can confuse the neuromuscular programs which determine the specificity of the actual movement. If one tries to replicate the sporting movement too closely in the gym, there will usually be changes to the centre of mass, speed of movement, lines of pull, moments in inertia, and the centre of rotation that will alter the fine neuromuscular skills required for the sport and therefore may impede sporting performance."
I'm not sure if that was understandable, but I hope so. It does take a bit of knowledge about how the muscles and nervous system work together, as well as some basic understanding of physics as they apply to the human body (kinesiology).
To answer your second question (a strength training regimen for climbing without adding weight): there's no single answer as to how to best accomplish this, and it all depends on what kind of performance you're looking for too. One thing to understand, though, is the difference between GENERAL CONDITIONING for a sport (best time to get bigger and stronger, more flexible, etc.) and SPECIFIC CONDITIONING for a sport (in other words, work on your technique).
The only place you should "add weight" is when doing general weight lifting--here you can add as much weight as safely possible to strengthen whatever you want to strengthen because weight lifting exercises have no transfer effect on sport skill. (In other words, hamstring curls won't make your heel hooking technique better, although they might make it easier because you're stronger, but it shouldn't negatively impact your technique because the exercise is so fundamentally removed from the neuromuscular patterns required for heel hooking.) These exercises do condition your body to withstand demands placed on the joints in any situation, including climbing. Campusing, hangboard, traversing, etc. can also be considered general conditioning since they are supplementary training to assist in developing the motor skills and conditioning the fitness capacities encountered in climbing AT A GENERAL LEVEL.
These qualities are then developed into sports specific strength, speed, power, endurance etc by the actual sport itself. You can now incorporate sport specific "drills" while climbing, which many people talk about on this forum; this may include things like laps or burns on a route, downclimbing (although again, I think this mainly makes you better at downclimbing, although it may assist in training to improve hand and forearm lactate threshold), repeated tackling of certain kinds of climbing (i.e. OW, liebacking, etc.) and so on. If you needed to climb with lots of additional weight (like a pack for instance), then I would incorporate training/climbing with a pack under the most specific conditions possible (because then you get true transfer of skill), not during one's general conditioning.
If you have more specific questions, then try pm'ing me.
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bcombs
Aug 8, 2007, 1:39 AM
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That makes sense and I think I followed all of your points. Let me give you a real world example and see what your take is on it.
Let's say there is this climber, we'll call him Ted. Ted weighs 200lbs and has been climbing for two years. Mostly sport climbing on vertical to slightly overhanging rock. Ted climbs solidly on 5.10d and can usually send 5.11a after 2-3 burns. One summer Ted decides he really wants to lose 20 lbs so he gives up climbing for 8 weeks and instead runs 6 miles 3 times a week and watches what he's eating on the rest days. Ted loses 20 lbs in the 8 week span (above average, but hey this is all hypothetical right? ). After a week back at the crags Ted gets on a 5.11c that is longer and steeper than anything he's ever been able to complete. Ted flashes the route. Even though prior to the 8 weeks of training similar routes felt nearly impossible. So the question is:
a. Did Ted just need 8 weeks of rest from climbing to be able to send two letter grades harder?
b. Is Ted able to send two grades harder because he's 20lbs lighter?
c. Can Ted send two grades harder because his muscles trained for nearly two years at 20lbs heavier and therefore are stronger.
Keep in mind Ted is still sending 5.11c so it wasn't just a route that suited him.
Also, I'll PM you about some specific things regarding training.
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fluxus
Aug 8, 2007, 2:03 AM
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lemon_boy wrote: jay, regarding first point, i'm simply saying that training with a weight vest is not necessarily going to ruin somebody's climbing. a good example would be a movement in which a climber is controlling a barn door while getting to the next hold. performing this movement with some (not necessarily a ton) of weight, in the right location, could potentially increase the climber's ability to control the movement.
Sorry man but I 100% disagree with this statement. A barn door is catagorized by the shifting of the climber's balance from off-set to dynamic balance. That is, the COG passes just outside the base of support in the frontal or sagitial plane. I can't think of any mechanical justification for saying that putting one's self in such a situation with added weight would have a desirable training effect.
Controlling a barn door, that is preventing it from happening, is more of a cognitive issue involving a number of vairables including how well the climber perceives and responds to the movement of the COG as it approaches the limit of the base.
The thing that is so problematic about discussions about climbing with extra weight is that there is the underlying assumption that everything in climbing performance is basically a strength issue. The thing is the motor complexity of climbing movement is substantial and should not be ignored. Adding weight totally recontextualizes your movement, that's a really big deal. don't take it lightly.
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Climberguy88
Aug 8, 2007, 2:54 AM
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Well I've been climbing on the edge junior team for 7 years now and i've been competing for 5. I'm the 2006 Canadian National Champion. I Say that so you understand that i know what i'm doing. Anyway... I have trained with weight vests.
The way to do it is to ease your way into them and ease your way out. and just be careful. Try not to climb with one on a lot cause it will change the way you climb. try to stick to conditioning
Weighted dead hangs are the most common use of them. Use the smallest edge on a hang board and add enough weight so that you cant hang longer than 12 seconds max. do them in 3 sets with 30 seconds in between.
Another common use is weighted pull-ups. or weighted campusing.
Never Boulder with a weight vest. moves are too dynamic and have a very high potential for injury.
I have used them while doing volume. 3 routes back to back (90 moves total) with very little weight (4 pounds). the problem with this is that it changes the way you climb.
My Name is Simon
Any Questions Message Me
(This post was edited by Climberguy88 on Aug 8, 2007, 2:57 AM)
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Climberguy88
Aug 8, 2007, 3:11 AM
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bcombs wrote: That makes sense and I think I followed all of your points. Let me give you a real world example and see what your take is on it. Let's say there is this climber, we'll call him Ted. Ted weighs 200lbs and has been climbing for two years. Mostly sport climbing on vertical to slightly overhanging rock. Ted climbs solidly on 5.10d and can usually send 5.11a after 2-3 burns. One summer Ted decides he really wants to lose 20 lbs so he gives up climbing for 8 weeks and instead runs 6 miles 3 times a week and watches what he's eating on the rest days. Ted loses 20 lbs in the 8 week span (above average, but hey this is all hypothetical right? ). After a week back at the crags Ted gets on a 5.11c that is longer and steeper than anything he's ever been able to complete. Ted flashes the route. Even though prior to the 8 weeks of training similar routes felt nearly impossible. So the question is: a. Did Ted just need 8 weeks of rest from climbing to be able to send two letter grades harder? b. Is Ted able to send two grades harder because he's 20lbs lighter? c. Can Ted send two grades harder because his muscles trained for nearly two years at 20lbs heavier and therefore are stronger. Keep in mind Ted is still sending 5.11c so it wasn't just a route that suited him. Also, I'll PM you about some specific things regarding training.
With regards to this. it is because he lost 20 pounds. however over the 8 weeks 'Ted' had time to adapt to his new weight whether he climbed or not. changing back and forth between a weight vest will make you stronger but it will equally make your technique suffer. so realistically you'll notice that you can squeeze harder but that you get tired faster.
your best bet is to follow my last post. go climb for your regular session then take half an hour or an hour at the end to do weighted dead hangs. so you gain the strength without losing the technique.
(This post was edited by Climberguy88 on Aug 8, 2007, 3:13 AM)
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drjghl
Aug 8, 2007, 5:07 AM
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Thanks for the post, Climberguy88. Your initial post is a nice "case study" regarding the use of weights that are worn as training for climbing. It seems that using weights for GENERAL CONDITIONING can improve your climbing perfomance. And using weights for SPECIFIC CONDITIONING (ie climbing with added weight) may be detrimental to climbing performance. That aerili chick knows her shit. She's also a badass climber btw.
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aerili
Aug 8, 2007, 4:37 PM
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bcombs wrote: a. Did Ted just need 8 weeks of rest from climbing to be able to send two letter grades harder?
Doubtful. 8 weeks of rest is sufficient time to cause a large amount of reversal in muscle hypertrophy, strength and power.
In reply to: b. Is Ted able to send two grades harder because he's 20lbs lighter?
This question is actually a lot more scientific than you might believe. Without actual scientific methods and testing being used in your case study, I can't give you a really definitive answer, but I would say the weight loss had a lot to do with it. Most athletes perform better with lower fat masses (up to a point and depending on the athlete--linebackers and Tour de France riders would clearly differ, plus essential fat is needed and influences hormones, yadda yadda).
In reply to: c. Can Ted send two grades harder because his muscles trained for nearly two years at 20lbs heavier and therefore are stronger.
Hard to say. Neuromuscular reinforcement (i.e. muscle memory) was probably still intact to some degree, but actual strength and size of required muscles would have clearly reversed, so it's possible the remaining muscle memory allowed you to perform technique-wise fairly well and the added benefit of less weight to move made the work on the muscles that much easier. (20 extra pounds is more substantial than people might think...if I gave you a 20 lb suit to wear and told you to do everything in it 24/7 you would think I was crazy.)
In reply to: Keep in mind Ted is still sending 5.11c so it wasn't just a route that suited him.
Nice job. Congrats on the weight loss.
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bcombs
Aug 8, 2007, 5:18 PM
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aerili wrote: Nice job. Congrats on the weight loss.
Haha, thanks! Also, thanks for the input, its been very helpful.
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jt512
Aug 8, 2007, 5:20 PM
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bcombs wrote: That makes sense and I think I followed all of your points. Let me give you a real world example and see what your take is on it. Let's say there is this climber, we'll call him Ted. Ted weighs 200lbs and has been climbing for two years. Mostly sport climbing on vertical to slightly overhanging rock. Ted climbs solidly on 5.10d and can usually send 5.11a after 2-3 burns. One summer Ted decides he really wants to lose 20 lbs so he gives up climbing for 8 weeks and instead runs 6 miles 3 times a week and watches what he's eating on the rest days. Ted loses 20 lbs in the 8 week span (above average, but hey this is all hypothetical right? ). After a week back at the crags Ted gets on a 5.11c that is longer and steeper than anything he's ever been able to complete. Ted flashes the route. Even though prior to the 8 weeks of training similar routes felt nearly impossible. So the question is: a. Did Ted just need 8 weeks of rest from climbing to be able to send two letter grades harder? b. Is Ted able to send two grades harder because he's 20lbs lighter? c. Can Ted send two grades harder because his muscles trained for nearly two years at 20lbs heavier and therefore are stronger. Keep in mind Ted is still sending 5.11c so it wasn't just a route that suited him. Also, I'll PM you about some specific things regarding training.
reminiscence
An improvement in later performance due to rest or non-practice.[1]
Jay
Reference:
1. "reminiscence." The Oxford Dictionary of Sports Science . Oxford University Press, 1998, 2006, 2007. Answers.com 08 Aug. 2007. http://www.answers.com/topic/reminiscence
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