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desertwanderer81
Oct 20, 2007, 2:03 AM
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jt512 wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: jt512 wrote: A 5.9 climber wrote: MOST dynos are just flashy and could have been done statically. Honestly, I've never come across a situation where you HAD to dyno. MOST static moves are inefficient and could be* done dynamically. Honestly, I've never come across a situation where you'd want to static a move if you could do it dynamically. Jay *I just couldn't make myself mimic the poor grammar here. wow, YAY!! go you!!! King of the internet, whew. I hope I never make that mistake again but if I do, I know Jay will be here to save the day. That and your head is in your ass if you actually believe what you wrote about dynamic moves. If you maintain that attitude toward dynos, you will not progress much beyond easy 5.11 sport climbing; and if you maintain that attitude toward people, you might not progress much beyond adolescence. Jay
Right on, maybe someday I'll make it to the mentality of a sophmoric teenager who thinks he knows everything! Just like our grammar nazi friend!
And are you saying that you regularly dyno on 13's when you're leading trad?
Man, what a typical RC asshole.
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jt512
Oct 20, 2007, 2:15 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: jt512 wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: jt512 wrote: A 5.9 climber wrote: MOST dynos are just flashy and could have been done statically. Honestly, I've never come across a situation where you HAD to dyno. MOST static moves are inefficient and could be* done dynamically. Honestly, I've never come across a situation where you'd want to static a move if you could do it dynamically. Jay *I just couldn't make myself mimic the poor grammar here. wow, YAY!! go you!!! King of the internet, whew. I hope I never make that mistake again but if I do, I know Jay will be here to save the day. That and your head is in your ass if you actually believe what you wrote about dynamic moves. If you maintain that attitude toward dynos, you will not progress much beyond easy 5.11 sport climbing; and if you maintain that attitude toward people, you might not progress much beyond adolescence. Jay Right on, maybe someday I'll make it to the mentality of a sophmoric teenager who thinks he knows everything! Just like our grammar nazi friend! And are you saying that you regularly dyno on 13's when you're leading trad? Man, what a typical RC asshole.
Who said anything about trad?
Man, what a typical RC moron.
I should just killfile you now, but I think I'll make a fool out of you for a little while longer, first.
Jay
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mturner
Oct 20, 2007, 3:28 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: jt512 wrote: A 5.9 climber wrote: MOST dynos are just flashy and could have been done statically. Honestly, I've never come across a situation where you HAD to dyno. MOST static moves are inefficient and could be* done dynamically. Honestly, I've never come across a situation where you'd want to static a move if you could do it dynamically. Jay *I just couldn't make myself mimic the poor grammar here. wow, YAY!! go you!!! King of the internet, whew. I hope I never make that mistake again but if I do, I know Jay will be here to save the day. That and your head is in your ass if you actually believe what you wrote about dynamic moves.
Sorry desertwanderer but Jay is right on this one. He may have said it in his usual sarcastic way but his post highlights the oversimplicity of your post, something you noticed yourself when you said that he can't actually believe what he wrote. Likewise, we can all see the ridiculousness of your post. Furthermore, do you honestly think Jay climbing a 5.12+ doesn't ever static a move? There are times when doing a dyno is more efficient. Also, there are times when doing a static move is more...I don't know if efficient is the word, but how about accurate and more high percentage. Therefore, each of these moves have their time and place and neither should be ignored completely.
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mturner
Oct 20, 2007, 3:30 PM
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climb_eng wrote: Bullshit, Dynos are ususally done by climbers who lack good technique.
That statement is not even possible considering the complex technique required to be good at dynos. Sounds like someone sucks at dynos so is compensating.
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ewald
Oct 20, 2007, 4:28 PM
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In response to the static/dynamic argument:
Static moves are better for climbers physically in the long run, so it's better to tend towards them.
However, some routes just can't be done without dynoing (example, Chris Sharma's recently projected lines in Ceuse, France. They were left undone for 20 years because no one had tried dynoing a full body length to the next "jug.")
So, dynos are a reality we have to face as climbers because they are, in many locations, a big hallmark of futuristic lines.
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ghisino
Oct 20, 2007, 4:41 PM
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elepita wrote: Hi all, I made a search and didn't find anything so here it goes: I am really good at lock-offs but suck at dynos and dynamic moves, they don't have to be huge dynos, I suck anyway. Is there a way to train to get better at dynamic moves, is there a secret out there I don't know about? It really drains you to do a static move to that pocket when it would be so much better to get dynamically to it...thanks in advance for your help.
so it looks like you suck at every dynamic move, non only big dynos...
most likely you lack confidence, technique and hand-eye coordination
-first, very useful exercise :
one-handed climbing. You are forced to dyno and you really learn what your throwing hand has to do. Very effective on your hand-eye coordination and contact strenght too...
Do it like this : 7 hard moves right arm, 1 minute rest, 7 hard moves left arm. Rest 3 minutes, then again. 3 to 5 sets of 7 moves each arm.
-dynos themselves. Try!!!
-campus boarding : touches, ladders, two-handed jumps, plyometrics...
be careful with this : start easy and make it more difficult (smaller rungs, longer moves) only when you feel comfortable with an exercise, do few moves each set, drink a lot and most important thing rest a lot between sets...usually around 5 minutes
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jt512
Oct 20, 2007, 5:35 PM
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ewald wrote: In response to the static/dynamic argument: Static moves are better for climbers physically in the long run, so it's better to tend towards them.
Huh?
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quiteatingmysteak
Oct 20, 2007, 6:06 PM
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Readers Digest Version:
Random guy wants to Train for Dynos
Shu trolls some people who are new to the introweb
Curt chimes in. He's climbed with Gill, I think its safe to say that Dynamic movement has a place in climbing.
JT512 does some chest thumping
Did I miss anything?
Conclusion? The best training for climbing has always been to practice the move you want to do :D If you want to practice dynos, well, practice them!
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pro_alien
Oct 20, 2007, 8:09 PM
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Not real dynos, but:
To practice dynamic moves, deadpoints, and a bit of footwork - I pick easy routes on a wall with some structure, climb using the grips for hands, feet on structures only. I do this with the Toppas auto belay at my local gym, gets me warm fast...
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jt512
Oct 20, 2007, 8:55 PM
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quiteatingmysteak wrote: Readers Digest Version: Random guy wants to Train for Dynos Shu trolls some people who are new to the introweb Curt chimes in. He's climbed with Gill, I think its safe to say that Dynamic movement has a place in climbing. JT512 does some chest thumping Did I miss anything?
Apparently you missed the point that dynamic moves are more efficient than static moves and so dynamic movement should be preferred over static movement, not the other way around. Static moves are for people who haven't learned to climb dynamically, not the reverse. Obviously that's an over-generalization, but maybe it'll get somebody to think.
Jay
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1080climber
Oct 20, 2007, 9:00 PM
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hi, I have th same problem. the only thing I havr seen a noticeable difference doing is jumping for something to small to catch and trying to lock it off from catching with on hand. That isjumping from the ground
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jt512
Oct 20, 2007, 9:37 PM
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1080climber wrote: hi, I have th same problem. the only thing I havr seen a noticeable difference doing is jumping for something to small to catch and trying to lock it off from catching with on hand. That isjumping from the ground
Care to try that again in English?
Jay
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quiteatingmysteak
Oct 20, 2007, 9:53 PM
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jt512 wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: Readers Digest Version: Random guy wants to Train for Dynos Shu trolls some people who are new to the introweb Curt chimes in. He's climbed with Gill, I think its safe to say that Dynamic movement has a place in climbing. JT512 does some chest thumping Did I miss anything? Apparently you missed the point that dynamic moves are more efficient than static moves and so dynamic movement should be preferred over static movement, not the other way around. Static moves are for people who haven't learned to climb dynamically, not the reverse. Obviously that's an over-generalization, but maybe it'll get somebody to think. Jay
Got me to think.
Good insight, Jay.
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thomasribiere
Oct 20, 2007, 10:13 PM
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I have a problem of definition here : is there a difference in the English climbing terminology between dynos and dynamic movements?
Anyway : on some routes, more commonly on modern sport routes and boulders, "jumps" are an important part of the technical "arsenal". (NB : this statement doesn't answer the OP question on training for dynos...).
Another question : should dynos be preferred to static moves when both are possible? The underlying question would be "what kind of moves require less energy and keep the climber more stable"? I guess that a powerful climber with a strong pelvic girdle will dyno, while a thin climber with strong fingers and a high mass/power rate will lock". I lock.
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mturner
Oct 20, 2007, 10:27 PM
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thomasribiere wrote: I guess that a powerful climber with a strong pelvic girdle will dyno, while a thin climber with strong fingers and a high mass/power rate will lock". I lock.
What does the thinness of a climber have to do with it? I am "thin" and I usually prefer dynoing. I think it has more to do with the movement than the climber's body type. Although, I know lots of people who get stuck because they either don't want to/can't dyno or can't lock off.
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quiteatingmysteak
Oct 20, 2007, 10:29 PM
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'Dyno' is a subculture of 'Dynamic Movement.' Dynamic movement means big moves, as I have heard it used. With a lot of climbing terms there aren't any 'exact' definitions. Some older climbers would consider a move to be dynamic, where a gym rat sees it as static. a Dyno is like what you see at bouldering competitions or indoor gyms, though it's been done outside plenty enough to warrant it as a move, to be sure. Loskot and 2 smoking barrels, Es Pontas, three degrees of seperation, all super hard routes using 'dynos.'
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jt512
Oct 21, 2007, 2:27 AM
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thomasribiere wrote: I have a problem of definition here : is there a difference in the English climbing terminology between dynos and dynamic movements?
In climbing, a static move is one that is made without using momentum to reach the hold. In a static move you are in complete control of the entire move. You can stop at any point in the move. A dynamic move, by definition, uses momentum to reach the hold. You do not control the entire move, but rather, use the lower body to generate momentum to help you reach the hold. You can't stop at every point in the middle of a dynamic move. Newton's Law of Inertia guarantees this. Dynamic moves range from deadpoints, in which you might pop the hips directly toward the wall to give you time to stab a hand at a hold, to all-points-off dynos. The word "dyno" is usually reserved for dynamic moves initiated with bursts of power from the lower body.
In reply to: Another question : should dynos be preferred to static moves when both are possible? The underlying question would be "what kind of moves require less energy and keep the climber more stable"?
It's not clear what you mean by "stable." A static move should always be more "stable" than a dynamic move, in the sense that you are in full control throughout a static move, but not so during a dynamic move. However, that "stability" has a price: it takes energy from the upper body. In a dynamic move momentum is generated from the lower body, shifting the burden from the upper body muscles, the ones that fatigue and make us fall off routes. That is why dynamic moves are more efficient in the climber's sense of the word: it's not that they require less energy per se, but less energy from the muscles in which conservation of energy is important. So, if you can do a move dynamically, you should often prefer to do so, even if (especially if!) you could also do it statically.
Now, once you're convinced that dynamic climbing is superior to static climbing, you realize that there are a lot of moves that you are forced to do statically, because the finishing hold is "too small" or something. Then, you have to realize that whether you can do moves to small holds dynamically is a function of your skill level, and that that skill level can be improved. That should motivate you to work on your dynamic climbing, so that you can do a greater percentage of your moves dynamically.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 21, 2007, 4:23 PM)
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thomasribiere
Oct 21, 2007, 8:42 AM
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In reply to: In climbing, a static move is one that is made without using momentum to reach the hold. In a static move you are in complete control of the entire move. You can stop at any point in the move. A dynamic move, by definition, uses momentum to reach the hold. You do not control the entire move, but rather, use the lower body to generate momentum to help you reach the hold. You can't stop at every point in the middle of a dynamic move. Newton's Law of Inertia guarantees this. Dynamic moves range from deadpoints, in which you might pop the hips directly toward the wall to give you time to stab a hand at a hold, to all-points-off dynos. The word "dyno" is usually reserved for dynamic moves initiated with bursts of power from the lower body.
Thanks for the developed definition, Jay.
In reply to: That is why static moves are more efficient in the climber's sense of the word: it's not that they require less energy per se, but less energy from the muscles in which conservation of energy is important.
Didn't you mean dynamic?
What you say is interesting : I hadn't thought of the "conservation of energy in the upper body" muscles concept. It makes sense.
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jt512
Oct 21, 2007, 4:24 PM
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thomasribiere wrote: In reply to: In climbing, a static move is one that is made without using momentum to reach the hold. In a static move you are in complete control of the entire move. You can stop at any point in the move. A dynamic move, by definition, uses momentum to reach the hold. You do not control the entire move, but rather, use the lower body to generate momentum to help you reach the hold. You can't stop at every point in the middle of a dynamic move. Newton's Law of Inertia guarantees this. Dynamic moves range from deadpoints, in which you might pop the hips directly toward the wall to give you time to stab a hand at a hold, to all-points-off dynos. The word "dyno" is usually reserved for dynamic moves initiated with bursts of power from the lower body. Thanks for the developed definition, Jay. In reply to: That is why static moves are more efficient in the climber's sense of the word: it's not that they require less energy per se, but less energy from the muscles in which conservation of energy is important. Didn't you mean dynamic?
Oops. Yes. That is what I meant. I've corrected my post accordingly.
Jay
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ghisino
Oct 23, 2007, 3:54 PM
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jt512 wrote: Now, once you're convinced that dynamic climbing is superior to static climbing, you realize that there are a lot of moves that you are forced to do statically, because the finishing hold is "too small" or something. Then, you have to realize that whether you can do moves to small holds dynamically is a function of your skill level, and that that skill level can be improved. That should motivate you to work on your dynamic climbing, so that you can do a greater percentage of your moves dynamically. Jay
Skill level, but also contact strenght and body tension Jay!!!
I agree that a lot of moves are more efficient if done dynamically, but not every move around.
Sometimes the difficult part isn't reaching the next hold, but rather holding it while preparing your body for the next move...in those cases dynoing just makes easier the easy part and harder the hard one...pointless!!!
(This post was edited by ghisino on Oct 23, 2007, 6:14 PM)
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mturner
Oct 23, 2007, 4:20 PM
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ghisino wrote: Skill level, but also contact strenght and body tension Jay!!!
Contact strength and body tension are part of "skill level."
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sidepull
Oct 23, 2007, 4:29 PM
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quiteatingmysteak wrote: Readers Digest Version: Random guy wants to Train for Dynos Shu trolls some people who are new to the introweb Curt chimes in. He's climbed with Gill, I think its safe to say that Dynamic movement has a place in climbing. JT512 does some chest thumping Did I miss anything?
Good synopsis.
To update, add: JT512 is right and a lot of people agree with him.
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ghisino
Oct 23, 2007, 6:39 PM
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mturner wrote: ghisino wrote: Skill level, but also contact strenght and body tension Jay!!! Contact strength and body tension are part of "skill level."
so-so
I do train a lot indeed, and I expecially train those two things campus boarding, but I find that thinking things that way might be misleading...
getting phisically stronger doesn't automatically mean getting more skilled.
Otherwise everyone could start his personal campus board obsession, get strong enough to do 1-4-7 on monos and 1-5-9 on two fingers, fly to frankenjura and send "action directe" in a matter of days...
btw
speaking of action directe, look at this.
Gullich is the one who does less one-fingered pullups...Interesting uh?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kOrN5JznVwM
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sidepull
Oct 23, 2007, 10:35 PM
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if your point is that people climb more statically in onsight competitions that emphasize endurance then great, but if this is somehow being presented as evidence that static climbing is more efficient than dynamic climbing then you're wrong. onsighting is rarely about efficiency because it necessitates that the climber has the endurance to correct for misreading the route or at the very least has the endurance to correctly read features mid route.
for contrast, please watch videos of bouldering competitions and note how often they use dynamic moves. because they aren't penalized as heavily for falls and because, move for move, the problems are harder there's a greater need for dynamic moves (plus it's way more entertaining). moreover, if you watch videos of people during hard redpoint attempts you'll see that they regularly employ a fluid, dynamic style because, when you're at your limit, it's more efficient.
(This post was edited by sidepull on Oct 24, 2007, 1:19 AM)
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