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adrnylynejunkie8


Apr 20, 2009, 12:48 PM
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workout for climbing-sets/reps
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hey everyone. I recently just got into climbing and i have questions for building my strength and endurance. I know you need both for climbing and have researched what muscle groups are stressed but i haven't found what reps and sets are best.

For strength its 3-6 reps and no more than 5 sets with high weight, mass is 8-12 reps and 6-8 sets with moderate weight and endurance training it is 15-20 reps with many sets and low weight.

I currently have a good diet and workout frequently but i need advice on training for the strength or training for the endurance. Thanks to any help!!


boracus


Apr 20, 2009, 5:01 PM
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Re: [adrnylynejunkie8] workout for climbing-sets/reps [In reply to]
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A-
If you just recently got into climbing, ie less than a year or so you'd be best served by simply climbing.
You're hands are going to take a little time to adapt to the stresses of climbing, especially if you boulder two or more times a week.
You'd be better off spending more time on the rock learning how to move well, this will make you more efficient in your climbing which will give you far greater gains in endurance than any training could.

As far as off the rock training goes, I would recommend a combination of recruitment/strength training and Hypertrophy/mass training to balance out the excessive pulling strength that climbing develops.
Focus on developing your movement abilities, your strength will improve for a time simply by virtue of the fact that climbing is new to you. Give it a year of climbing consistently climbing week in and week out before you focus on any climbing specific strength training.
welcome to the sport,
BA


aerili


Apr 21, 2009, 6:10 AM
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Re: [adrnylynejunkie8] workout for climbing-sets/reps [In reply to]
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boracus gave you the best advice already.

Would you try to train for soccer before you learned how to play soccer? You would want good general fitness but there is no point in doing any highly specific conditioning when you have no skill yet.

Edited to add: The Self Coached Climber (mentioned frequently on this site) might be a book worth investing in as you start out.


(This post was edited by aerili on Apr 21, 2009, 6:11 AM)


clmbr121


Apr 27, 2009, 7:09 PM
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Re: [adrnylynejunkie8] workout for climbing-sets/reps [In reply to]
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Boracus hit it on the head: the best way to get better (stronger) at climbing is to climb.

Here are some supplemental things you can do when you can't get outside:
1) Purchase and install a hang board in your home. Metolius makes some nice ones.

2) Make sure you do push-ups as well to help offset your training. This will help prevent tendinitis, a usual result from training muscles in a single direction.

3) Don't forget to train your core. Yoga is a good idea for this, but crunches, pull-ups and push-ups can help as well.

Check out this article. It can give you some ideas for creative training.

Hope this helps.

- Brian


PL7


May 6, 2009, 1:50 AM
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I don't want to hijack the man's thread but I have the exact same question and I didn't want to make yet another thread on the same topic. I started climbing a few months ago but I have a weight lifting "background" (powerlifting/crossfit for 1.5 year). For proximity/unstable partner/monetary reasons, and a still running subscription at the local gym, it's much easier for me to do weightlifting than actual climbing. Also, between climbing days and rest days I can easily squeeze 2 weightlifting days. So please don't bother with the usual "omg climb more noob!".

I know that strength training and endurance training doesnt go along well at all if you're looking for optimal training. I enjoy bouldering but I prefer doing sport routes so I was thinking 20ish rep endurance grind but I see a lot of people talking about pure strength. I can see why it would be useful for bouldering but wouldn't training for pure strength get you pumped too fast on longer routes? When I see sharma climb very long and hard routes while he also excels at bouldering I really don't know where to look at in terms of sets/reps.

Another thing I was wondering... I noticed that with my current fitness level I could climb on for a long time before being drained and the only thing that stopped me was my fingers getting tired way faster than any other part of my body. I really feel that my fingers are the weakest link. I was considering buying a finger training board but then again I read on here that if you do that too soon (before climbing 11s/12s, I only do low 10s) it would be useless and damage your tendons. Having powerlifting experience, wouldnt' that make my tendons strong enough already to get on the finger training routines sooner? I mean, I can C&J my own bodyweight and deadlift 2x my own bodyweight, hanging on my fingers doesn't look risky from my perspective.

Thanks for the advices.


aerili


May 6, 2009, 4:51 AM
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PL7 wrote:
I don't want to hijack the man's thread but I have the exact same question and I didn't want to make yet another thread on the same topic.
You are not hijacking! This is exactly what you should have done when you have a question and an identical thread already exists. Thanks for having a brain. Wink



In reply to:
I know that strength training and endurance training doesnt go along well at all if you're looking for optimal training.
It's not as black and white as you might imagine. This area of research is still emerging in many ways.



In reply to:
I enjoy bouldering but I prefer doing sport routes so I was thinking 20ish rep endurance grind but I see a lot of people talking about pure strength. I can see why it would be useful for bouldering but wouldn't training for pure strength get you pumped too fast on longer routes?
There's a quote....pardon if I don't get it perfectly. "If you can't pull a move then there's nothing to endure."

I think 20 rep sets would be really useless. The power generated is, well, incredibly low, and I don't even think it would translate to climbing endurance much. But...I am not totally sure what kinds of resistance exercises you're referring to when you talk about this kind of rep scheme to begin with.

Also, I don't think anyone advocates training for pure strength only, especially if routes are what you enjoy. On a related note, one thing that is apparent in the exercise science is that strength and power training do not appear to be detrimental much (or at all) to endurance performance (depending on how you define and measure endurance).



In reply to:
I really feel that my fingers are the weakest link.
Not surprising.


In reply to:
Having powerlifting experience, wouldnt' that make my tendons strong enough already to get on the finger training routines sooner? I mean, I can C&J my own bodyweight and deadlift 2x my own bodyweight, hanging on my fingers doesn't look risky from my perspective.
It's true that some of those heavy lifts REALLY work your grip.

But...it's not the same. The grip required to do those lifts is very one-dimensional and you're utilizing the force generation of all five fingers and your hand, whereas training on a finger board incorporates lots of different grip positions, and the end result is to be able to hang on with less fingers or on ever diminishing hold sizes. This means the forces applied to your tendons can increase exponentially--something that no C&J or deadlift ever did for you or prepared you for.


(This post was edited by aerili on May 6, 2009, 4:52 AM)


rtwilli4


May 6, 2009, 5:46 AM
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I'm willing to bet that if you guys are climbing plastic 10's, it's ugly and painful. The main things you both should be doing is working on finding your style, technique, and mental ability to figure out problems a few moves ahead of you. Rarely is there an average recreational climber out there that really benefits from "training" in the first year. Once you have a year, or even two years, of full time climbing (3 - 5 days a week) behind you, training is probably necessary to climb harder grades.

I hate to "train" but sometimes get motivated. This is what I do:

Climb as much as I can... and boulder a lot. I gain more usable strength climbing than lifting. climb 3 days a week with two of them incorporating hard bouldering or a climbing exercise that pushes my muscles to the limit. I like to pick a few hard static moves on the boulder wall and do them over and over with different grips in different arm positions. These moves work me to my max... like burning out on weights. And I'm not talking about big lunging dynos... I mean slow, static movement. Go bigger as you get stronger, but no huge dynos.

Also two days a week I Run or do something aerobic.

Two days a week I work antagonist muscles such as tricepts, deltoids, and the tops of the forearms.

On days that I'm not already getting a good core workout from hard bouldering or climbing specific movement, I WORK THE HELL out of my core muscles.

I like pushups, pull ups, dips, shoulder press, reverse curls, and all kinds of painful core workouts. I tend to use moderate weight that I can do 4 or 5 sets of 10 w/o a spotter.

When I'm not climbing much, I get into chest flys, squats, and weighted pullups. Of course I climb all the time and haven't done squats in over a year. The more I climb, the less I "train."

Put all of the above into five days, spacing each type of exercise out so you aren't going on back to back days. The other two days of the week are for rest/sex/robbing banks/etc. PS don't rest two days in a row!


PL7


May 6, 2009, 5:20 PM
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aerili wrote:
I think 20 rep sets would be really useless. The power generated is, well, incredibly low, and I don't even think it would translate to climbing endurance much. But...I am not totally sure what kinds of resistance exercises you're referring to when you talk about this kind of rep scheme to begin with.

Also, I don't think anyone advocates training for pure strength only, especially if routes are what you enjoy. On a related note, one thing that is apparent in the exercise science is that strength and power training do not appear to be detrimental much (or at all) to endurance performance (depending on how you define and measure endurance).


I was thinking of sets of 20 because most routes at the closest indoor gym are about what, 20 moves long? I figured out if I wanted to work out toward doing routes more than bouldering problems I should be doing sets of "climbing related exercises" with a number of reps averaging what I'd usually encounter climbing a route. That's my reasoning, but I was wondering what are the mountain climber's common schools of thought about this. I read that most high end competitors usually work endurance and power, so it kind of made sense to me. A boulderer would probably get more from strength and power, since problems are *usually* much shorter (it also makes sense when you consider energy pathway systems used).

And yeah, it is a popular belief that endurance/strength dont go together but I did notice that a lot of people who are good at climbing routes are usually about just as good when it comes to bouldering so that belief doesn't really seem to make sense when it comes to mountain climbing.

I read often that if you can do, lets say, 30 dips (endurance), and you start doing 5x5 of weighted dips, your strength will indeed go up but if you try pulling a max rep set of dips you will soon find out that your max dramatically went down. So I was wondering if bouldering often (due to a lack of stable route climbing partner) wouldn't impede on route climbing performance in the end.

I guess that since my fingers are the weakest link at this point, any finger work is good work though, especially bouldering.

Tell me what you think and thank you for the meaningful answers.


rtwilli4 wrote:
Rarely is there an average recreational climber out there that really benefits from "training" in the first year.

I read this often and it couldn't be farther from the truth. A good overall fitness level will help you a lot when you start out. You can NOT get experience/footwork/finger strength/visualisation and all that stuff from exercising in a gym, that's for sure. But put up 2 beginners on a wall, a fatty who can't do 1 pull up, 5 push ups and walk up a set of 5 stairs without sweating Vs. someone who can chain 15 pull ups, 20 dips, has a decent core, good legs and good cardio... the fit guy will progress much faster. There is no arguing about it, just ask my climbing partner. He has more climbing experience than I do but my much greater fitness level ended up making me able to climb stuff a bit harder than he actually can, and he gets pumped a whole lot faster than me. I ain't bragging, I've seen it with other people also.

rtwilli4 wrote:
Once you have a year, or even two years, of full time climbing (3 - 5 days a week) behind you, training is probably necessary to climb harder grades.

You're missing the point. I said I ain't training to get better at climbing. I'm training because I would be training anyway, I'm just looking about ways to make my regular training more useful for climbing since it has become my main sport.

Trust me, if I had the time and money to climb 5days a week, I would. It's just not possible right now so I'm trying to get better with the ressources I currently have.

rtwilli4 wrote:
I like pushups, pull ups, dips, shoulder press, reverse curls, and all kinds of painful core workouts. I tend to use moderate weight that I can do 4 or 5 sets of 10 w/o a spotter.

Those exercises are pretty much what I did. You said you did sets of 10 though. I guess that makes sense for someone like you who boulders a lot but are you gaining a lot of mass? 8-12 reps is in the mass range. I was working out around that range recently (5x12) and I put up about 5 pounds of muscle within 1-2 months (without eating like mass programs requires you to). If I keep going that way I'll be much more competitive in bodybuilding contests than actual mountain climbing... It's one of the reason I was saying I was thinking of sets of 3x20. Good endurance, but no mass gains. Sets of 3-5 gives you good strength and little mass also so I was considering that as an alternative if sets of 20 were a no go.


(This post was edited by PL7 on May 6, 2009, 5:23 PM)


shockabuku


May 6, 2009, 5:49 PM
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Here, I'll make you a better climber very quickly: stop using the term "mountain climbing" when you're talking about climbing in a gym (or rock climbing outside).

If you want to climb mountains, get a stairmaster.

If you want to be a rock climber, stay in shape and you'll probably figure out if any specific weight workout helps when your hands catch up to the rest of you. Be careful about not using strength to make up for bad technique early on or it'll start a bad habit that you'll pay for in the long run.


heidt410


May 6, 2009, 10:27 PM
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You should cross train, hit both fast and slow twitch fibers with different reps. Climbing involves endurance moves but also explosive moves. You're already made up of the fibers you're going to have, train them all. Just watch how much weight you put on compared to strength gains.

Throw out as many isolation exercises as you can.
By throwing out isolations, I mean dont do more than 1-2 iso exercise per session. Spend your time doing pullups, bent rows, upright rows rather than 3 exercises of bicep curls.


PL7


May 6, 2009, 11:01 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
Here, I'll make you a better climber very quickly: stop using the term "mountain climbing" when you're talking about climbing in a gym (or rock climbing outside).

If you want to climb mountains, get a stairmaster.

Thanks, I've went from .10s to .12s just reading that, I can feel it.

shockabuku wrote:
If you want to be a rock climber, stay in shape and you'll probably figure out if any specific weight workout helps when your hands catch up to the rest of you. Be careful about not using strength to make up for bad technique early on or it'll start a bad habit that you'll pay for in the long run.

Yeah I know strength overcame technique at first. I would always pull with my arms, neglecting footwork, because it was just easier. I like climbing steep angles though, so it didn't take long to realize it wouldn't work out if I only used my arms. Kind of hard to spot mistakes and technique flaws when you're 2 beginners though.

heidt410 wrote:
Throw out as many isolation exercises as you can.
By throwing out isolations, I mean dont do more than 1-2 iso exercise per session. Spend your time doing pullups, bent rows, upright rows rather than 3 exercises of bicep curls.

I've thrown out isolation long before I started climbing. Unless you're doing rehab or rebalancing, there is just no reason to not do compound.


rtwilli4


May 7, 2009, 6:59 AM
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In reply to:
rtwilli4 wrote:
Rarely is there an average recreational climber out there that really benefits from "training" in the first year.

I read this often and it couldn't be farther from the truth. A good overall fitness level will help you a lot when you start out. You can NOT get experience/footwork/finger strength/visualization and all that stuff from exercising in a gym, that's for sure. But put up 2 beginners on a wall, a fatty who can't do 1 pull up, 5 push ups and walk up a set of 5 stairs without sweating Vs. someone who can chain 15 pull ups, 20 dips, has a decent core, good legs and good cardio... the fit guy will progress much faster. There is no arguing about it, just ask my climbing partner. He has more climbing experience than I do but my much greater fitness level ended up making me able to climb stuff a bit harder than he actually can, and he gets pumped a whole lot faster than me. I ain't bragging, I've seen it with other people also.

You are right and I should have explained myself a bit more. If you were out of shape and not already working out, then my answer would have been much different. However, you are already in shape, and training anyways, so my advice is still to climb as much as possible even if if means lifting less.

In reply to:
rtwilli4 wrote:
Once you have a year, or even two years, of full time climbing (3 - 5 days a week) behind you, training is probably necessary to climb harder grades.

You're missing the point. I said I ain't training to get better at climbing. I'm training because I would be training anyway, I'm just looking about ways to make my regular training more useful for climbing since it has become my main sport.

Trust me, if I had the time and money to climb 5days a week, I would. It's just not possible right now so I'm trying to get better with the resources I currently have.

So can you climb more instead of lifting... or do you have to lift? It is part of your profession?

In reply to:
rtwilli4 wrote:
I like pushups, pull ups, dips, shoulder press, reverse curls, and all kinds of painful core workouts. I tend to use moderate weight that I can do 4 or 5 sets of 10 w/o a spotter.

Those exercises are pretty much what I did. You said you did sets of 10 though. I guess that makes sense for someone like you who boulders a lot but are you gaining a lot of mass? 8-12 reps is in the mass range. I was working out around that range recently (5x12) and I put up about 5 pounds of muscle within 1-2 months (without eating like mass programs requires you to). If I keep going that way I'll be much more competitive in bodybuilding contests than actual mountain climbing... It's one of the reason I was saying I was thinking of sets of 3x20. Good endurance, but no mass gains. Sets of 3-5 gives you good strength and little mass also so I was considering that as an alternative if sets of 20 were a no go.

We have very different bodies. I used to lift to put on mass and I would do between 3 to 5 sets of 8 to 12 reps and eat well and still have a hard time putting on ANY muscle. I would hit 170 (I'm 6ft) or so after 6 months and level off. Push ups and pull ups give me a bit of mass... but without heavy lifting 5 or 6 days a week I stay around 155.

Like I said, if I am climbing hard 3 or four days a week, I rarely do anything else. I hardly even boulder unless it's all I can do. I follow the workouts above when I workout, but I don't do it full time.

I'm not sure what the best answer is for number of reps but I can tell you that I climb MUCH better at 155 than I do at 170. When I was 170 I could bench 225, squat nearly 300, and don't remember the dead lift but I impressed my dad who used to lift a lot. I could do more pull ups then too. Still climb better at 155 with no lifting. Go figure.


aerili


May 7, 2009, 7:39 PM
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PL7 wrote:
I was thinking of sets of 20 because most routes at the closest indoor gym are about what, 20 moves long? I figured out if I wanted to work out toward doing routes more than bouldering problems I should be doing sets of "climbing related exercises" with a number of reps averaging what I'd usually encounter climbing a route.
What do you consider to be climbing-related exercises? To be frank, I haven't found much of anything in the weight room that highly simulates climbing exercises, so I do not look at reps and sets when conditioning with weights as correlating so exactly with number of climbing moves. I really doubt we would find your ability to do x amount of climbing moves would correlate closely with your rep numbers of whatever exercise.

Also, consider performance enhancement in other areas: to train a sprinter, who may require only 1-3 power bursts off the blocks in a single competition day, and who may be finished in 10-120 sec with their performance, I would not then say, "Well, we only need to do 3 sets of 1 rep plyo jumps today, and when you do your bounds at 100%, they will only be 10 seconds long."



In reply to:
I read often that if you can do, lets say, 30 dips (endurance), and you start doing 5x5 of weighted dips, your strength will indeed go up but if you try pulling a max rep set of dips you will soon find out that your max dramatically went down. So I was wondering if bouldering often (due to a lack of stable route climbing partner) wouldn't impede on route climbing performance in the end.
If you were to switch to training only strength, then yes, your endurance appears to drop and vice versa.

If you train both strength and endurance concurrently, everything becomes a lot harder to predict and understand, partly because so many of the studies looking at this were not designed the same way so you can't compare them. All the research is very contradictory in general. Things like using sedentary vs fit populations makes a difference; upper vs lower body testing; methods of testing endurance and methods of testing strength; volumes of each incorporated in the studies; structure of the programs: were the two types of training done on the same day vs on different days; and so forth.



In reply to:
So please don't bother with the usual "omg climb more noob!"
Most people aren't interested in answering your actual question, they are only interested in halfway reading what you want to know, then giving the knee-jerk answer they think you should hear. Omg, don't you know that yet, noob?! Tongue


(This post was edited by aerili on May 7, 2009, 7:40 PM)


PL7


May 7, 2009, 7:43 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote:
So can you climb more instead of lifting... or do you have to lift? It is part of your profession?

Nah it's not a profession thing. I was more into general fitness and climbing was a fun activity on the side. It really grew up on me and you people made me realize that if I was going to train for climbing I might as well just climb instead. I didn't do much weightlifting anymore anyway, it was mainly bodyweight stuff these days.

I thought it would be the other way around but after adding up the bills and everything I figured out it would be cheaper to cancel the gym subscription and get a rock climbing gym subscription, so I did it. Now all I need is a pocket-belaying-gnome. I guess I'm just going to do a lot of bouldering during the week and see how that affects my route climbing with a partner during the weekend.

rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm not sure what the best answer is for number of reps but I can tell you that I climb MUCH better at 155 than I do at 170. When I was 170 I could bench 225, squat nearly 300, and don't remember the dead lift but I impressed my dad who used to lift a lot. I could do more pull ups then too. Still climb better at 155 with no lifting. Go figure.

My guess is that pure strength lifts don't help you out much when you do routes, so the spare muscle mass was just extra burden when you climbed. At 155 you only have the muscles you need to climb so you're more efficient at it, the extra you didn't need went away. If you tried to DL/BP/squat again you'd probably have lower results though but if climbing is what you're all about it doesn't matter.


All that being said, we still don't know what is the ideal rep range for rock climbing training haha.


rtwilli4


May 7, 2009, 9:36 PM
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yea... no one seems to want to tell us the answer! For me though I'm gonna say its 10-12 reps with weights and 15-25 with body weight stuff. If I am just doing plain ole pushups, sometimes I do three sets of burnouts which adds up to around 150 if I take a 60 second rest between sets. What I like doing even more is just seeing how many I can do in 3 minutes.

Now that I'm home (hours from climbing) I've gone back to training and remembered a few other exercises I like. I do flys, with light weight, 5 sets of 10. Instead of having my feet on the floor, I scoot all the way to the end of the bench and straighten my legs out, about 6 inches above the level that the bench is at (like doing six inches on the ground). I do very slow reps (negative resistance) and it gives a good core workout and simulates holding body tension like you would when you are workring out a move or making a tough clip. Between sets I get on my stomach and do lower back workouts. No rest. I do the same thing with military press. Light dumbbells though, no bar.


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