How to tie a bowline...it's as EZ as that!

http://www.youtube.com/...1#p/u/37/P-dSr70_tZU

Personally I use a figure 8 with a Yosemite finish, but when teaching I advocate a traditional figure 8 follow through with a double fishermans back-up knot, mainly because of the ease of checking the knot visually.

A stupid method with extra steps (the slip knot) and a sequence that puts a half-twist in the climbing rope (something that probably doesn't matter, but why do it if you don't have to).

But the worst feature is that this is a bowline without any kind of backup (I suggested earlier that climbers change conventional terminology so that "bowline" always meant a backed-up version.) The un-backed-up bowline is a dangerous knot that can and has loosened and untied, and even if snug can collapse if ring-loaded. On the other hand, a single or double bowline with the "Yosemite" finish and a double overhand is totally secure.

All that said, there is only one way to improperly tie a bowline and not have it instantly fall apart in your hands, and this form is very easy to recognize because the load strand is coming out of the wrong place. So I would question the claim that the bowline is any harder to check than a figure-8.

I think any problems with a bowline have come from tying the knot without any of the various backups, in which case it is subject to loosening. If we could somehow change the terminology so that what are now called the back-ups were actually part of the knot, there would be no question about the renamed bowline's security.

...you have to put a half twist in no matter how you tie the bowline.

As for the idea of using something foolproof rather than a more complicated solution, the point where the line needs to be drawn is in the mind of the beholder. It is possible, for example, to misthread an ATC, but no one is arguing for a return to the more foolproof hip belay.

The bowline has the advantage of being easy to untie after severe and/or prolonged loading. Depending on the rope and the circumstances, a figure-eight can get pretty badly jammed. If the user is going to choose the bowline, they need to know how to tie it, they need to know what the incorrectly tied version looks like, and they have to learn to fight the complacency and inattention that underlies these kinds of accidents for both beginners and experts.

If there are any doubts about an individual's ability to do this, by all means stick with the figure-eight.

The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb.

Neither will it be if you actually untie your figure-8.

Jay

Thank you, master of the obvious

I think his point was that it works just as well, but if someone leaves that 8 in (say someone new to the sport) that it can get stuck. I'm not saying one knot is better than the other, just thought the man had an interesting point concerning the discussion, and wanted to share.

The perennial confusion about knots.

Every knot is composed of bights, loops (overhand or underhand), and round turns. A bight is a 180° U-turn of the working end onto the standing part. A loop is a crossing of the working end over or under the standing part (360° turn). And a round turn is a 540° circling of the working end so that it's parallel with and adjacent to the standing part.

A bowline is a bight through an overhand loop and around the standing part. Once you know the language of knots and understand the relationship of components, it's as easy to inspect a bowline as a figure-8 followthrough.

Kalzen, there is a thread about this accident at http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=15840.

The "incorrectly tied" bowline is referred to as a "rumor" reported by one of the rangers. A later post by her father refers to a bowline, but it isn't clear whether he knows from talking to his daughter or whether he is repeating the term used by the rangers.

All that is known is that the knot she was using was not tied when she fell. Whether she had started a figure eight and not finished it, or was using a bowline that wasn't backed up as advocated in that unfortunate video, or had managed the one incorrect way to tie a bowline and then had that untie, we don't know.

I don't think even the incorrect way would come undone if it was backed up, though.

I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

What are the circumstances that cause you to deviate from this? Just wondering why you use it “almost 100%” of the time and not 100% of the time.

In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight. I have tested and found that you can tie only 2/3 of a figuer eight and it still holds body weight. If you forget to finish a fig 8 you still have a chance. forget to finish a bowline and you are toast! I do use the bowline in many other climbing aplications such as my 6mm chalkbag cord and my 9mm home made adjustable daisy. Bowlines can loosen up, Fig 8's do not. pretty simple stuff.

INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes change.