You and I both know climbers with years of experience that climb pretty hard that have some less than ideal habits and practices. I can personally tell you about plenty of good climbers with decades of experience that have shitty belay practices or do some things I regard as sketchy. Sure, I don't go around telling them that they're going to die, but I sure as hell speak up if I think they're going to impact MY safety. Climbing ability, mileage, and experience are important...but they are not the be-all end-all of my decision making. I like to try to make informed decisions based on available data as well as my and other's experience. It's called thinking for yourself and not just following whatever Tommy is doing on Dawn Wall. You can post all the pictures you like of how much and how hard you climb, but I'll take the opinion of someone like rgold over yours any day...someone with experience and the ability to rationally support their choices and not say it must be ok since you climb more pitches and climb harder than anyone else. You really have stooped to the same bullshit that you have accused Jay of.

BTW how is there that much sun in Squamish, especially this time of year? I thought it rained there all the time!? Hell, it's even snowing in North Carolina right now.

if youre going to tell people they dont climb little dimped chad

you better be out climbing more ... ya little hypocrit ...

i noticed you posted NON rockclimbing photos ... pot calling the kettle black

utter and total contempt

what people say on the intraweb forums, and what happens in the real world every day are quite different

and tell me how one would die clipping ONE loop of a daisy any more than any other sling

i dont climb harder than many people ...or even more ... but i do go out and climb as much as and as hard i can, unlike a few of these RC "experts" above

the reality is what people tell you to do on intraweb forums has little relevance on outdoor climbing

if you "listened" to people on internet forums youre going to die from such killers as ... dyneema, PASes, daisies, cross loading belay biners, dynamic belays, screamers, gri gris, the deadly autoblock, 7 kn biners, sliding X, top rope anchors on 2 good bolts, etc ...

what people go off about on RC, isnt whats even remotely likely to kill you or get you hurt

again i ask how clipping a SINGLE loop of a daisy is deadly than a PAS, or a sling ... especially a nylon daisy

the difference between me and some fun RCers ... i dont tell people that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way ... i DO however tell those RCers who do that they really have no relevance, and they get upset

squamish has a lot of rain ... but youll generally get at least 1-2 + days a week of dryish weather even in winter ... the hardest slabs up here get sent in winter

once its gets warmer next month ill be climbing 3+ days a week, but dont worry, theres still reception everywhere in squamish for plenty of intraweb fun at belays

you are indeed a "great" RC "expert" climber ... ya non-climbing thang

a few more non-climbing totally posed photos with awwwsum photoshop ... from this week


partner cleaning my gear on the "first 5.12 in north america" ... realistically it is a one move wonder with most of it being 5.9 ... took a whipper on a micronut and tested out my 20$ deadly harness ... partner was probably a bit pissed as he thought it was "mostly 5.9" which it was

[image]http://i46.tinypic.com/2eanqfc.jpg
[/image]

my partner on the classic ultrasoft squamish "10-", really a 5.8, before he took a whipper on my 30$ rock empire cam ... god i luv it when other people test your gear that the intrawebbers tell ya yr gonna die on

[image]http://i49.tinypic.com/358xesx.jpg[/image]

ya should just go climb

I never once said anything about clipping into a daisy. You're talking to the wrong person. You are still under the false assumption that how much you climb, how hard you climb, or how many people are doing something are the only relevant indicators of whether something is safe or not. They're important, sure, but there is nothing wrong with lab testing, theory, or just plain old reasoning and common sense. Sometimes they give us ideas that just never occurred to climbers out in the field. You may not tell others here "that they are going to die because they dont do things my way or INSIST that my way is the ONLY way", but you pretty much do something that is almost as bad. You tell people here that they're going to be just fine doing something just because everyone else is doing it, or worse yet, because Sonny Trotter does it. It's fine to offer up an argument as to why you don't agree with someones opinion, but you don't do that. So really, you're no better than most of the RC'ers that you make fun of. Or, maybe I'm just bitter that it's snowing and I'm stuck for the next couple of months with work and won't be climbing all that much.

if they dont want to use daisies ... thats up to them ... if they do ... again thats up to them, which is fine if you clip one loop at a time

This may be of interest:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/qclab/qc-lab-daisy-chain-dangers-en-glbl-en-us

I'm not a trad nor an aid climber, I'm no expert and I've never had a need to use daisies.

or clip one end and any SINGLE loop ...

a nylon daisy wont fail ... an individual pocket might blow in rare circumstances, but the damn thing is a fully rated sling end to end

i tell people to USE THEIR BRAINS ...

The danger suggested in the video is that it's very easy to do this incorectly, leaving no attachment. Mistakes are easily made under a bit of stress.
https://vimeo.com/14679471#

Yup, and the idea is that if the bar tacked loop that you're clipped into did blow (partially or fully) then it acts like a screamer dissipating some of the force on the climber.

Re: Belay anchors: why not use daisy chains?
Author: Chris Harmston
Date: 1997/12/16
Forums: rec.climbing

Daisy's are weaker than runners because, as the pockets rip out, damage to
the webbing occurs at the pocket tacks. In static testing the pockets rip
out until you are in the standard runner configuration. The web breaks at
the damaged area of one of the pocket tacks.

In factor 2 falls with 185 lbs of steel I have seen some break outright
without popping all the pockets! I have also seen them hold factor
2 falls and pop all pockets. Dynamic loading is not the same as the
slow pull we use for batch testing and rating. Runner materials do not
stretch like your ropes does. Use your rope for your primary anchor and
use the daisy as a backup and as the adjustability. I have heard reports
of daisy's breaking in factor 2 aid falls. The samples I have seen that
broke in the field were fairly well worn. Daisy's get worn quite quickly
and their strength degrades accordingly. Use your rope as the primary
anchor!

Chris Harmston
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME.
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124

all this was hashed out on RC before ... which of course is about all telling people to do stuff only your or my way ....

just one of the ways that youll die on RC that has no bearing on what happens in the real world

Hi,

I currently have a few Yates Daisies. I have been told be various
"experts" that the blowing a single 4 kN pocket on a daisy can
compromise the entire 22 kN sling itself, thus causing the failure of
the entire daisy.

Could you let me know if this is true?

Thanks for you help,

.....


As long as you are connected in CORRECTLY to the daisy and not clipping
between loops(Death Clipping). Our daisy's will pull the pockets at 4-5kN
without damaging the structural integrity of the webbing. The daisy still
tests over 22kN end to end. Hope this helps

John Yates

So, Yates claims their daisies are not susceptible to the failure mode that BD found. BD does not disclose what brand of daisies they found failed, so it cannot be determined whether BD observed this failure mode in Yates daisies. Thus, as usual, what point you're trying to make, if any, is unclear.

In the unlikely event that you can follow simple logic, you should easily be able to see that your argument, which amounts to the following, is ludicrous:

1. BD found that some properly clipped daisies can fail in a factor-2 fall.
2. Yates claims that their own daisies cannot.
3. Therefore, BD's findings can safely be ignored.

Jay

but DAMN you just HAVE TO BE RIGHT mista jay ...

Pot...kettle...black. See, once again, someone has provided a logical argument to support an opinion and you do nothing but belittle them, and the rest of the users on this website for that matter. Same old song.

Belittling mistah jay is a classic example of belittling the belittlers ...

Go cry me a river with yr crocodile tears

The same old daisy argument and the same "evidence" has been hashed out a million tines before

The real story? ... It has no relevance to how and what people climb in the real world ... And clipping a single daisy loop aint ehats going to kill u out there ...

Go out and climb today ... Ill be back for more senseless intraweb fun after a few pitches

Weird that people cry about be belittling the belittlers ... When theres active threads about burqas and women who arent good climbers by someone who doesnt even climb ... And much more RC goodness

and in the real world this has no relevance, if youre taking FF2 falls on static materials, you should re-evaluate everything you do about climbing ... ]

I have heard reports
of daisy's breaking in factor 2 aid falls. The samples I have seen that
broke in the field were fairly well worn. Daisy's get worn quite quickly
and their strength degrades accordingly. Use your rope as the primary
anchor!

Sorry that the facts don't fit your beliefs