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carabiner96
Aug 19, 2008, 3:10 AM
Post #126 of 140
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Registered: Apr 10, 2006
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notapplicable wrote: carabiner96 wrote: jaablink wrote: I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear . Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with . Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list. What is and is not acceptable? Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists. Bolts do take away from the mental game. You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt. We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ? (this specifically directed - you know who you R) (this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you…. At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way. I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow. I’m going climbing to work off this anger…. ^^^ I'm not reading that. I read it. He said things that are true.
Including:
In reply to: I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow. |
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curt
Aug 19, 2008, 3:18 AM
Post #127 of 140
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
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carabiner96 wrote: jaablink wrote: I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear . Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with . Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list. What is and is not acceptable? Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists. Bolts do take away from the mental game. You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt. We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ? (this specifically directed - you know who you R) (this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you…. At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way. I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow. I’m going climbing to work off this anger…. ^^^ I'm not reading that.
Well, you should.
Curt
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notapplicable
Aug 19, 2008, 3:28 AM
Post #128 of 140
(3070 views)
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
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carabiner96 wrote: notapplicable wrote: carabiner96 wrote: jaablink wrote: I received a post form a man in Oregon... ^^^ I'm not reading that. I read it. He said things that are true. Including: In reply to: I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.
I said true, not Hemmingwayesque.
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stymingersfink
Aug 19, 2008, 4:21 AM
Post #129 of 140
(3049 views)
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Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
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curt wrote: carabiner96 wrote: jaablink wrote: I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear . Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with . Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list. What is and is not acceptable? Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists. Bolts do take away from the mental game. You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt. We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ? (this specifically directed - you know who you R) (this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you…. At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way. I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow. I’m going climbing to work off this anger…. ^^^ I'm not reading that. Well, you should. Curt
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USnavy
Aug 19, 2008, 7:08 AM
Post #130 of 140
(3025 views)
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Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
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kriso9tails
Aug 19, 2008, 8:24 AM
Post #131 of 140
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Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
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USnavy wrote: Just randomly chopping bolts because you don’t think the route should have bolts is bullshit. Those bolts are personal property and taking them is stealing.
Feel free to report it to the authorities. I'm sure they'll get right on the case.
In reply to: How would you like if you bolted a climb and came back the next day to find someone stole all the bolts because they didn’t think the climb should have been bolted?
There's a simple way to avoid this in the vast majority of cases: don't bolt against local ethics. Granted, I'm sure there are assholes when it comes to chopping, but despite your assertion above, I highly doubt that bolts remain personal property when permanently affixed to land. If the land isn't yours, I can't imagine you retain any rights towards the treatment of the bolts. Also, if the land isn't yours, then it's unlikely that you (or anyone else for that matter) have the right to dictate the ethics regarding bolting unilaterally. Accept it: if you can bolt it, someone else can chop it.
In reply to: If you don’t like the bolts, don’t use them. It’s that simple. They are not preventing you from placing trad gear.
I think the fact that you clearly didn't read any of this thread and that you hold that opinion stem from the same one-sided, superficial nature.
Graffiti also doesn't prevent anyone from placing pro. Glowing neon signs pointing out the best holds also don't prevent anyone from placing pro. Should anything and everything that doesn't prevent someone from placing gear be deemed acceptable? Is that the only reason someone would object? To me that's as absurd as saying that the only reason to climb is to go up and get to the top.
Bolts are generally reserved for climbs or sections of climbs that are other wise unprotectable. The atmosphere I've always climbed in was one in which the climber met the challenge that the rock provided with as little compromise as possible; not one where climbers conformed the rock to their own deficiencies, inabilities or insecurities. Placing bolts in defiance of this mars the aesthetic nature of the climb; it mars the character and beauty of it and I don't feel at all selfish or unreasonable to say that it detracts from the quality of the rock and the quality of the experience.
Understand that this is not something as easily put into words as it is something that you just feel in your gut. I'm a little saddened at those that can't comprehend this as I feel they are truly missing out on a large part of what climbing has to offer.
It is by no means 'that simple' and I feel as if that's the line of reasoning you present, then you are missing something so fundamental that in an eternity of posting I could never explain to you why.
Whatever. That's my take on it, or at least a much abridged version. Take my opinion or leave it... just don't try to bolt it.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Aug 19, 2008, 8:35 AM)
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Alpinisto
Aug 19, 2008, 12:20 PM
Post #132 of 140
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Registered: May 11, 2007
Posts: 118
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kriso9tails wrote: Take my opinion or leave it... just don't try to bolt it.
:thumbs WAY up:
I'm adding this to my sig.
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Tipton
Aug 19, 2008, 1:18 PM
Post #133 of 140
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Registered: Jul 12, 2007
Posts: 272
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USnavy wrote: jaablink wrote: New bolts on an easily trad protect able wall below a crack. This is already a touchy area for access and this climb in particular is easily protectable using passive means. Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention. A difficult to protect face climb would be more appropriate to place bolt protection, a crack climb is inappropriate for bolting especially in an area that is mostly trad climbed. Also, before bolting, it is standard etiquette to gain permission from landowners or are developers as bolts are essentially defacement. This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice. Just randomly chopping bolts because you don’t think the route should have bolts is bullshit. Those bolts are personal property and taking them is stealing. How would you like if you bolted a climb and came back the next day to find someone stole all the bolts because they didn’t think the climb should have been bolted? If you don’t like the bolts, don’t use them. It’s that simple. They are not preventing you from placing trad gear.
Dude, at least read the first few posts. You would have realized that this addressed a situation that was more than just randomly chopping bolts off a protectable climb.
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fishbelly
Aug 19, 2008, 1:26 PM
Post #134 of 140
(2977 views)
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Registered: Oct 31, 2004
Posts: 273
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This is a good troll. Why would any one anounce on a forum plans to chop or bolt aroute.Except to yank the chains of the self appointed . Just do it.
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sungam
Aug 19, 2008, 1:28 PM
Post #135 of 140
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
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fishbelly wrote: This is a good troll. Why would any one anounce on a forum plans to chop or bolt aroute.Except to yank the chains of the self appointed . Just do it.
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j_ung
Aug 19, 2008, 3:12 PM
Post #136 of 140
(2938 views)
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
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USnavy wrote: jaablink wrote: New bolts on an easily trad protect able wall below a crack. This is already a touchy area for access and this climb in particular is easily protectable using passive means. Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention. A difficult to protect face climb would be more appropriate to place bolt protection, a crack climb is inappropriate for bolting especially in an area that is mostly trad climbed. Also, before bolting, it is standard etiquette to gain permission from landowners or are developers as bolts are essentially defacement. This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice. Just randomly chopping bolts because you don’t think the route should have bolts is bullshit. Those bolts are personal property and taking them is stealing. How would you like if you bolted a climb and came back the next day to find someone stole all the bolts because they didn’t think the climb should have been bolted? If you don’t like the bolts, don’t use them. It’s that simple. They are not preventing you from placing trad gear.
This is a righteous chopping, if ever I heard of one, and any obtuse and subjective opinions of climbers in regard to ethics have absolutely no bearing on it. In fact, your own argument about personal property is the very reason why climbing ethics should hold no sway here. I confess, I'm baffled as to why jaablink even brought climbing ethics into this discussion in the first place. It was totally unnecessary and appears to have clouded the real issue.
1. The bolts in question are on private land with borderline access.
2. The land owner specifically asked for the bolts to be removed.
What other reason does he need to remove these bolts? NONE.
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jt512
Aug 19, 2008, 3:17 PM
Post #137 of 140
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
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j_ung wrote: It was totally unnecessary and appears to have clouded the real issue. 1. The bolts in question are on private land with borderline access. 2. The land owner specifically asked for the bolts to be removed. What other reason does he need to remove these bolts? NONE.
He didn't even need those reasons. He was the FAist.
Jay
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zeke_sf
Aug 19, 2008, 4:02 PM
Post #138 of 140
(2918 views)
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Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
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Upperlimits wrote: jt512 wrote: jrathfon wrote: i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack. Any opinion on this:  My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious. My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon. My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed. I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious. It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.
Hahahaha!!!1 It'd be funny watching you pull the rusty shiv out of your taint.
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zeke_sf
Aug 19, 2008, 4:06 PM
Post #139 of 140
(2915 views)
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Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
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climbsomething wrote: snoopy138 wrote: can't believe you got somebody with this, yet again. Dude, it's like menstruating in a shark tank.
Sentence of the year.
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zeke_sf
Aug 19, 2008, 4:10 PM
Post #140 of 140
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Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
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carabiner96 wrote: jaablink wrote: I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear . Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with . Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list. What is and is not acceptable? Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists. Bolts do take away from the mental game. You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt. We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ? (this specifically directed - you know who you R) (this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you…. At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way. I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow. I’m going climbing to work off this anger…. ^^^ I'm not reading that.
eyes... blurring... cannot... focus... on... rant...
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