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moose_droppings


Aug 8, 2008, 3:33 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm.

tedman wrote:
see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? ...... does it actually make it any easier?

Try standing on one side of the fence or the other.


csproul


Aug 8, 2008, 3:47 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? Its not like adding bolts makes the holds and bigger or the rock have more friction. does it actually make it any easier?
This is where your lack of trad experience shows. It DOES change the difficulty of the climb. Inherent in trad climbing is the addition of mental difficulty... of protecting the climb and the commitment that comes with starting the climb knowing that your climbing and protecting skills have to keep you safe. Just knowing that the bolts are there to fall back on when the going gets tough does make the climb less committing. Sport climbing does have its place, but not on already established trad climbs.


cloudbreak


Aug 8, 2008, 4:27 PM
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Re: [jrathfon] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Sounds like your mind was made up before you even posted.

Why haven't you just gone chopped them?
Did you come on here to get internet approval or what?


the_climber


Aug 8, 2008, 4:30 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite.
*cough* troll *cough*
tedman wrote:
Who gives a flying fuck?
Hmmm, lets see... ummm, lots of people

tedman wrote:
i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.

Yeah, about those commas, well lack off. But hey, I'm sure you meant "don't


tedman wrote:
i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things.
sport *wank* *wank*
I think you've been breathing chalk dust in the gym too long.

tedman wrote:
If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.
Yeeaaaahhhh.... [Dr.Evil]right[/Dr.Evil].... I'm guessing you've been at it somewhere between 2 and 5 years, most of your climbing is in the gym.

tedman wrote:
Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure.
Well the only way to get experience is to ummm, you know, climb with gear.

Besides, my partner's 15 year old son and his sons best friend can afford gear... come to thing of his his son Kyle had built up his own rack just after his 14th B-day.

*Point invalid*

tedman wrote:
And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont,
*snip*
Ya, ummmm... you still trying to pat yourself on the back for that one? The whole witty feng shui comment... oh wait, what the hell is feng sway? Keep you funkness to yourself, just the though of what it might be is scary.

tedman wrote:
you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?).
Clearly in this case you have ab-so-fuken-lutely no concept of ethics, and merely make an emotional, hot headed, and uninformed statement regarding something that is beyond you comprehension at this point.


tedman wrote:
Unless I'm missing something
Yep.

tedman wrote:
(and I could be,
Yep.


*yawn*

tedman wrote:
because

*yawn*
tedman wrote:
*snip*grizzled 40 year climbing veteran),
HOLY SHIT! Call the doctor! I'm aging prematurely!


tedman wrote:
the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

*yawn*

Back to the gym and sport wanking mindset.

*yawn*

Do some research on the history of climbing ethics, and write a 2000 word essay on the purity of the pursuit of climbing before you get back to me on this one. You sound young enough to sill be in grade school, it'll be good practice for you during the summer.

*time for a Beer*


AAHHHHH! Tasty. Where was I? Oh, yes...

tedman wrote:
Get yourself off!
WTF!


Oh, wait... I cheezetitted that one.

*yawn*

Next.


tedman wrote:
does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes?

It's not a matter of ego. It is a respect issue; for the environment, the sport, and the first accentionists.

tedman wrote:
are you that fucking selfish?

I could say you are selfish for letting others do ALL the work to establish climbing routes and crags, trail to the crag, the effort to ensure access is both secured and ensured... all without putting the effort in yourself.

tedman wrote:
And yes, I do climb trad.
I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".

tedman wrote:
Not as hard as my sport grade

Spray.

*yawn*

tedman wrote:
but I've only been at it for the summer.
the_climber wrote:
tedman wrote:
And yes, I do climb trad.
I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".

Yep.


tedman wrote:
So yeah, I do both.

You do both but understand only one. I could explain, but you clearly do not have the frame of reference to comprehend, so I won't waste my typing on you anymore.

Have a happy slappy afternoon,

T_C

P.S. I'd offer you a beer, but I have a feeling you're too young to drink and I wouldn't want a good ol' Trad climber to be a bad influence in the Sport an Gym community.


(This post was edited by the_climber on Aug 8, 2008, 4:33 PM)


chossmonkey


Aug 8, 2008, 4:38 PM
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Re: [the_climber] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
Had the same thing happen last year on a crag we developed.
If like us you ar ethe FA/Developer of the crag, Time to pull the crowbar out.
A crowbar is never the answer.

It leaves big nasty marks. There are much better, easier ways.


kriso9tails


Aug 8, 2008, 4:45 PM
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Re: [the_climber] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
tedman wrote:
So yeah, I do both.

You do both but understand only one. I could explain, but you clearly do not have the frame of reference to comprehend, so I won't waste my typing on you anymore.

It'd sort of be like explaining why one equals one.

In reply to:
P.S. I'd offer you a beer, but I have a feeling you're too young to drink and I wouldn't want a good ol' Trad climber to be a bad influence in the Sport an Gym community.

Whatever man.; don't be condescendin'. I can coordinate my toque, manpris, chalkbag and climbing shoe ensemble like nobody's fucking business. This is the true skill a climber needs in all situations. Remember, it's not about getting to the top; it's about leaving behind a pretty corpse.

(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Aug 8, 2008, 7:05 PM)


CaptainPolution


Aug 8, 2008, 7:01 PM
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Re: [the_climber] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite.
*cough* troll *cough*
tedman wrote:
Who gives a flying fuck?
Hmmm, lets see... ummm, lots of people

tedman wrote:
i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.

Yeah, about those commas, well lack off. But hey, I'm sure you meant "don't


tedman wrote:
i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things.
sport *wank* *wank*
I think you've been breathing chalk dust in the gym too long.

tedman wrote:
If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.
Yeeaaaahhhh.... [Dr.Evil]right[/Dr.Evil].... I'm guessing you've been at it somewhere between 2 and 5 years, most of your climbing is in the gym.

tedman wrote:
Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure.
Well the only way to get experience is to ummm, you know, climb with gear.

Besides, my partner's 15 year old son and his sons best friend can afford gear... come to thing of his his son Kyle had built up his own rack just after his 14th B-day.

*Point invalid*

tedman wrote:
And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont,
*snip*
Ya, ummmm... you still trying to pat yourself on the back for that one? The whole witty feng shui comment... oh wait, what the hell is feng sway? Keep you funkness to yourself, just the though of what it might be is scary.

tedman wrote:
you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?).
Clearly in this case you have ab-so-fuken-lutely no concept of ethics, and merely make an emotional, hot headed, and uninformed statement regarding something that is beyond you comprehension at this point.


tedman wrote:
Unless I'm missing something
Yep.

tedman wrote:
(and I could be,
Yep.


*yawn*

tedman wrote:
because

*yawn*
tedman wrote:
*snip*grizzled 40 year climbing veteran),
HOLY SHIT! Call the doctor! I'm aging prematurely!


tedman wrote:
the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

*yawn*

Back to the gym and sport wanking mindset.

*yawn*

Do some research on the history of climbing ethics, and write a 2000 word essay on the purity of the pursuit of climbing before you get back to me on this one. You sound young enough to sill be in grade school, it'll be good practice for you during the summer.

*time for a Beer*


AAHHHHH! Tasty. Where was I? Oh, yes...

tedman wrote:
Get yourself off!
WTF! [image]http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/sign_wtf.gif[/image]


Oh, wait... I cheezetitted that one.

*yawn*

Next.


tedman wrote:
does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes?

It's not a matter of ego. It is a respect issue; for the environment, the sport, and the first accentionists.

tedman wrote:
are you that fucking selfish?

I could say you are selfish for letting others do ALL the work to establish climbing routes and crags, trail to the crag, the effort to ensure access is both secured and ensured... all without putting the effort in yourself.

tedman wrote:
And yes, I do climb trad.
I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".

tedman wrote:
Not as hard as my sport grade

Spray.

*yawn*

tedman wrote:
but I've only been at it for the summer.
the_climber wrote:
tedman wrote:
And yes, I do climb trad.
I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".

Yep.


tedman wrote:
So yeah, I do both.

You do both but understand only one. I could explain, but you clearly do not have the frame of reference to comprehend, so I won't waste my typing on you anymore.

Have a happy slappy afternoon,

T_C

P.S. I'd offer you a beer, but I have a feeling you're too young to drink and I wouldn't want a good ol' Trad climber to be a bad influence in the Sport an Gym community.

I am going to have to agree with you here on every single point. you sum it up.


climbsomething


Aug 8, 2008, 7:13 PM
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Re: [jt512] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



Jay
OMG! OMG! OMG!

Balls out 5.6 what I mean did anybody see that insurance commercial where their soloing um is the optimus prime a good shoe for numbers chasing which is a bad thing anyway the best climber is the one who's having the most fun bolting cracks.

What? Where the eff am I? Mommy?


the_climber


Aug 8, 2008, 8:03 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
the_climber wrote:
Had the same thing happen last year on a crag we developed.
If like us you ar ethe FA/Developer of the crag, Time to pull the crowbar out.
A crowbar is never the answer.

It leaves big nasty marks. There are much better, easier ways.

I've got ways to remove them, but it's a hard task when the wanker who placed them (if you can call it placing) bent the shaft trying to tighten the bolt up in the wobblely hole he/she hacked out.
You leave less marks if you put a piece of leather or a pin between the rock and the crowbar too.


t2stone


Aug 8, 2008, 8:35 PM
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Re: [climbsomething] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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UMM~,

Did someone say TROLL? Crazy
HONESTLY peeps.... would anyone really DRILL? NEXT TO A 30$ USED CAM PLACEMENT? HMM WHAT1 would motivate this kinda CRAP!
lets see here.....?
I see many "excuses" here,but do 2 my "poor" typing/spelling I will get us "going" w/t THE TOP 3 REASONS I BOLTED A CRACK

#1 sport~weeniew/t an ego prob-" @ the coffeeshop s~weenie has 2 tell he/she cohorts that they climbed a 5.9 2-day on lead! )^:

#2 sport~weenie has 2 much $/time on he/she hands now- s`weenie has a trustfund and has been reading rock n ice alot...buy drill go 2 cliff and "pervert" the nature of the rocks.

#3 sport~wennie CAN now climb 5.8 but, would NEVER "trust" a nut or an aiein 4 that matter... buys drill and gets to climb a crack on lead fer once....MadPirate


(This post was edited by t2stone on Aug 8, 2008, 8:37 PM)


t2stone


Aug 8, 2008, 8:52 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me, then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!

No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual. All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole. Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?

Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.

And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.

So no really, duhh, say this.. your climbing a crack route 1 day... it's very hard fer you 2-day? then you see a hanger 2 clip instead of the crack~placement (easy way out)= no adventure )^:~ case closedAngelic please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.


notapplicable


Aug 8, 2008, 9:19 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish?

And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.


tedman wrote:
Heres my point, why do YOU care if less committed climbers now have access? How does that degrade from YOUR experience? And if bolting a line makes it so a wheelchair bound climber can get up it, then hell yes bolt it!! I'd love to see that and be cheering them the fuck on the whole time!

Chalk, bolts, hanging draws (I'm assuming you mean the exceedingly few permanent draws installed on routes and not project draws). Seriously, defacements? thats your main point? The erosion, I'll give you that. Better access=more people=more erosion. But is that really YOUR reason for not liking bolts on your favorite trad route? Sure seems like we are worried about it getting popular, and we dont like to share now do we?

And ok, the 12guage wielding land owners do have a right to what goes on on their property, this is amerika, fuck yeah! so trespassing is still trespassing. But really, if we take away all the popularity that bolting would bring to classic routes, all the property owners' angst, when you see a bolt on your trad line, what are the real reasons that you get pissed? Is it really the tree hugging hippie in each of us whose spirit is dampend because of the bruising to mother nature's fragile essence, or is it our ego that cant stand the thought that we put in all this work to be able to climb this route this way, and now some punkass 12 year old with a rope and a bunch of draws can now do the same thing in a much less committing fasion?

tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me, then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!

No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual. All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole. Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?

Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.

And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.

So no really, please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.

tedman wrote:
see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? Its not like adding bolts makes the holds and bigger or the rock have more friction. does it actually make it any easier? If you go and climb it trad (which you can still 100% do), NO! If you want to climb it with all or some bolts, yes! Everyone is happy! (although aparantly not).

And are you really trying to argue that slamming pitons into the wall and then taking them out so the next person slams their own into the wall a bit down from yours and takes theirs out is the same as putting in a bolt that gets used thousands of times and can fairly easily be replaced (in the same spot no less!) causing no further scaring of the rock? really? cuz thats what it sounds like to me. Really in the long run it could be argued that bolting has less impact than gear (even gear scars the rock when it rips out right?).

It only lowers the challenge for those who WANT the lower challenege. The difference between this and all of your examples is that yours force EVERYONE onto the lower challenge. Bolting, if not for the egos involved, allows both parties to be happy.

tedman wrote:
The other poster was comparing placing pitons to placing bolts. I was showing the difference.

Yes I really do trad climb, Yes I know about cams and nuts and no they typically dont scar the rock, but they can, and they do occasionally rip out and scar the rock. Not very much, but much less so yarding on bolts.

Yes I read all these posts, but I never get any good answers. The only one that made me think about it for a minute was about 100-300 years from now. Everyone just responds 'ugh you dont get it, but I'm just not going to explain it to you', because either they are lazy or cant because they dont have any good arguments (I'm leaning towards the later).

you_can_still_climb_a_bolted_trad_line_only_using_trad_gear. What I dont get it how this suposedly 'ruins the line' when in fact nothing has changed for the trad climber. The rock is still there, its exactly the same, the only thing that has changed is he has more options open to him. Aparantly options are bad?

and just saying a point is asinine is asinine. Come up with intelligent logical arguments other than 'because I say so' or 'its tradition!'. Its almost like arguing with religious zealots!

tedman wrote:
No I dont have a ton of experience, I've never said I have. But that dosnt stop me from making a valid point does it? Just because it goes against the grain dosnt mean its not worth exploring.

Convince me I'm wrong using valid justifiable points and I'll concede, until then, I'm having fun at the end of an otherwise mind dulling work day!


HOLY BLATHERING IDIOT BATMAN!!!

^That^ is possibly the most time I have seen one person spend in a day, being completely wrong, on a subject they know nothing about. If it werent so sad I would say congratulations...but it is, so I won't.


notapplicable


Aug 8, 2008, 9:22 PM
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Re: [t2stone] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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t2stone wrote:
UMM~,

Did someone say TROLL? Crazy
HONESTLY peeps.... would anyone really DRILL? NEXT TO A 30$ USED CAM PLACEMENT? HMM WHAT1 would motivate this kinda CRAP!
lets see here.....?
I see many "excuses" here,but do 2 my "poor" typing/spelling I will get us "going" w/t THE TOP 3 REASONS I BOLTED A CRACK

#1 sport~weeniew/t an ego prob-" @ the coffeeshop s~weenie has 2 tell he/she cohorts that they climbed a 5.9 2-day on lead! )^:

#2 sport~weenie has 2 much $/time on he/she hands now- s`weenie has a trustfund and has been reading rock n ice alot...buy drill go 2 cliff and "pervert" the nature of the rocks.

#3 sport~wennie CAN now climb 5.8 but, would NEVER "trust" a nut or an aiein 4 that matter... buys drill and gets to climb a crack on lead fer once....MadPirate

t2stone wrote:
So no really, duhh, say this.. your climbing a crack route 1 day... it's very hard fer you 2-day? then you see a hanger 2 clip instead of the crack~placement (easy way out)= no adventure )^:~ case closedAngelic please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.


I'm not deciphering ^that^.


stymingersfink


Aug 8, 2008, 9:52 PM
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Re: [jt512] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



Jay
Yeah. He outts ta lever that big loose flake off so it don't kill someone's belayer.


t2stone


Aug 8, 2008, 10:26 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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2~badd 4 you no apps... try a fORtune cookie next time or just go out an CLIMB INSTEAD OF SITTIN ROUND YER PC O.K. NOW?Shocked


(This post was edited by t2stone on Aug 8, 2008, 10:28 PM)


Partner gunksgoer


Aug 8, 2008, 10:26 PM
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Re: [t2stone] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

I honestly hope thats a troll... its just idiotic.

Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike. Get my drift?

That being said, the guy who was trying to lead the bachar-yerian all on gear is ridiculous.


t2stone


Aug 8, 2008, 10:29 PM
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Re: [gunksgoer] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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gunksgoer wrote:
tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).
YEAH! what he said!Smile

I honestly hope thats a troll... its just idiotic.

Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike. Get my drift?

That being said, the guy who was trying to lead the bachar-yerian all on gear is ridiculous.


notapplicable


Aug 8, 2008, 10:34 PM
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Re: [gunksgoer] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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gunksgoer wrote:
That being said, the guy who was trying to lead the bachar-yerian all on gear is ridiculous.


He almost had it though!!


Yeah, yeah I know...horseshoe's and hand grenades.


darkside


Aug 9, 2008, 1:11 AM
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Re: [jrathfon] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jrathfon wrote:
You advocated adding bolts for increased access. I was merely pointing out that your logic can be extended. If we are going to add bolts to trad lines so that all can enjoy, then why don't we add handi-capped access to remote alpine waterfalls? how about everest? (wait, no, that's been done) my point was merely, how come you, mr. elitist sporto, (look i can put you on your high horse and call you elitist as well), need your routes to be bolted in order to climb, that's mighty elitist requiring all of your routes to have bolts, why not save some lines for people who prefer other styles? maybe the trad climbers aren't as sporty and gymnastic as you, and maybe they can't pull down as hard. should we deny them of routes so you can have your precious bolted lines?

of course not, it's silly either way to claim routes in honor of a style. styles coexist, some crags have been developed as one or the other, there are typically many good reasons, no placements, an abundance of placements, loose rock, run-outs, etc. what does matter is the local community. what style do they prefer? what style is the accepted style at the crag? that's what to follow.

why don't i just walk into a gym and say that my accepted style is slopers, and change all routes i want to climb to be all slopers, then yell elitists at the crimp fanatics who all get their crotchety panties in a twist. i know, cause that's dumb. i walked into a scene where i am not part of the community and changed pre-established things to meet my needs, who is elitist?
Climbers are lazy including myself which is why I only read the first page. I wanted to say I agree with jrathfon but I wanted to add that I thought tedman must be lazy too. Like seriously dude, do you really think it's OK to bolt cracks??? Your ethics must be so whacked if you're not trolling. So is it also OK to chip, or to glue extra holds on as well? Before you start calling "elitist", I'm calling bullshit - I climb easy stuff, mostly trad, but would never stoop to bringing the rock down to my lowly level. Really dude, grow a pair and learn some ethics. I love bolts when they're needed but bolts by gear protectable cracks is lame.
Sorry but it had to be said if someone didn't in the 2nd/3rd page - like I said, I'm too lazy to read rehashed shit but not that lazy I didn't learn trad.


mheyman


Aug 9, 2008, 8:29 AM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure...the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Tedman you imply the jaablink is trying to limit access to routes due to ego. This is not the case if the routes are topropeabel as he claims.

And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone gunksgoer writes

gunksgoer wrote:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.

edited to correctly attribute quote


(This post was edited by mheyman on Aug 10, 2008, 5:43 PM)


stymingersfink


Aug 9, 2008, 8:49 AM
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Re: [mheyman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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mheyman wrote:
And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone writes

In reply to:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.
^^i missed that earlier, but this is one time t2stone actually got it right.


Partner angry


Aug 9, 2008, 8:55 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
mheyman wrote:
And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone writes

In reply to:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.
^^i missed that earlier, but this is one time t2stone actually got it right.

I read that at 4am last night and didn't believe my eyes. I figured it was some trick of the late night. This time he hit the nail on the head, now I know he's a carpenter, but I just thought that meant he drank the wood stain.


Partner gunksgoer


Aug 9, 2008, 9:54 AM
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Re: [mheyman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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mheyman wrote:
And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone writes

In reply to:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.

Actually, I wrote that. It got quoted incorrectly.


(This post was edited by gunksgoer on Aug 9, 2008, 9:55 AM)


stymingersfink


Aug 9, 2008, 10:03 AM
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Re: [gunksgoer] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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gunksgoer wrote:
mheyman wrote:
And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stonegunksgoer writes

In reply to:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.

Actually, I wrote that. It got quoted incorrectly.
well, that explains it then!


edit: fixed the incorrect reference within the quote


(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Aug 9, 2008, 10:06 AM)


mheyman


Aug 9, 2008, 1:36 PM
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Re: [gunksgoer] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Sorry gunksgoer. I have reattributed the quote.
The analogy was apropos.

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