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jrathfon
Aug 8, 2008, 6:49 PM
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Valarc wrote: jrathfon wrote: the case is not a question of elitism or trad vs. sport. it's violation of first ascent ethics, a route, private property, and land owner relations. I haven't decided yet whether I agree with that statement in general, but in this case I would almost certainly say it's a question of EGO. If the OP spends any more time spraying about soloing that cliff, he's going to turn into a skunk.
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack. a bolt's lifetime? 25 years, the crack's lifetime? however long that rock is there. why drill a hole that can never be fixed when you can simply place gear there, then take it with you when you're done? cause you're too cheap?
why do you not subsribe to leave-no-trace ethics as much as you can? not living to this example is like not recycling, denying global-warming, driving an SUV for commuting on a highway cause it looks cool, leaving lights on in an unoccupied house or room, littering.
nice shiny safe bolts on every line would be sterile and boring, sure it'd be convenient and safe. so would a 7-11 in your front yard.
why don't we make doctorates easy enough for everyone to get? why don't we level all hills so nobody has to work to get to the top?
get off your high horse and stop calling everyone elitist, in that situation the only elitist is the name thrower.
and yes, blabbing about soloing does not make you cool. but throwing a bolt next to a crack is also very lame.
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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 7:01 PM
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Solos came last.I cleaned them. I top roped them first . Then trad , now I have climbed each line hundreds if not thousands of times. Instead of all the cumbersome gear I just solo it all and every move feels like a 7(maybe 7 is my max grade gym boy). Its like good morning weight training routine - Perfect & precise weight training(perfect practice makes perfect… J ). Much better than a gym .
Its raining here now. This afternoon they are coming out. I’m pissed ,the locals are pissed, and this is causing drama between the owners and the climbers, as I know both sides well. When the bolter is identified , the community here will deal with him. (problem : unwanted bolts by above parties…. solution : remove bolts and fill holes)
I am just putting it out there. Hoping this post is read before someone else has the bright idea to do something stupid like this again. (((lines that can be protected by passive means should be done so…. Bolts on faces that are otherwise unprotect -able “X” are acceptable only by rules and ethics of that area. Sport has its own areas around here. The bolts were expert placed and are maintained , the lines are all with few exceptions and the walls are in general face. So even the sport crags lack bolts on the crack line. This is a common ethic in the area)))Learn to Respect common ethics
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billcoe_
Aug 8, 2008, 7:07 PM
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Do it.
Tedman, come back after you turn 13.
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joeforte
Aug 8, 2008, 7:08 PM
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Where is this crack located?
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jaablink
Aug 8, 2008, 7:20 PM
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why have you been bolting?
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shockabuku
Aug 8, 2008, 7:29 PM
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joeforte wrote: Where is this crack located?
tedman's back yard?
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Valarc
Aug 8, 2008, 7:38 PM
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I'd just like to say I find the words being put into my mouth to be quite hilarious.
I've not really formed an opinion on either side of the debate yet - I see some points that bolt haters make, and I understand some of the arguments made by people who want to bolt the shit out of everything. I think some bolt advocates are being sissies who want to bring everything down to their levels and have no respect for history, and I think some bolt haters are elitist douchebags who stand in a big circle and jerk each other off.
In general, I think it's too complicated an issue to form a simple opinion, and so I find it quite entertaining when people on either side of the debate assign such an opinion to me for the sake of arguing.
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tedman
Aug 8, 2008, 7:58 PM
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I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).
And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me, then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!
No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual. All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole. Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?
Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.
And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.
So no really, please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.
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fresh
Aug 8, 2008, 8:09 PM
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the only reason I can see for having ethics in climbing is so that the next generation can enjoy it the same way we do. generally, the more we bolt, the more the experience is compromised. some bolting is necessary for safety, no doubt. but climbing as a hobby is young. bolting is younger. 100 years from now, how are crags gonna look if people can't deterred from bolting? 300 years?
we only get one shot with our rocks.
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jrathfon
Aug 8, 2008, 8:32 PM
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homer simpson wrote: Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that.
tedman wrote: I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).
Alright, a) that argument is assinine. and there is no b). you are right, you don't have to clip the bolts, but it's sort of like having unprotected sex while the condom is sitting right there beside you on the bedstand. just stupid.
tedman wrote: And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me,
I haven't thrown sh!t yet, but I can start if you'd like.
tedman wrote: then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo! No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual.
Absolutely correct. We are all going to climb, we are all going to drive to the store, we are all going to use a lightbulb at night, we are all contributing to global warming. When you are aware of this you're an ass if you don't try to conciously minimize your impact.
tedman wrote: All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole.
Well that's a load of crap. I could care less about how easy or hard it is for you to climb a route. If you accomplish something that's difficult for you, I'll say congrats.
Have you actually conversed with "most people" or "92%" of the community? It doesn't sound like you have been in the scene (6 months of trad) to really fully understand the issue, let alone most people's opinions. This is not a slight to you, just an observation.
Like a few mentioned before, the new bolt "bitching and moaning" is because the perps violated local established ethics on a line that is perfectly reasonable to protect. They selfishly brought it down to their level and ruined a route that many others have enjoyed in its previous state.
tedman wrote: Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?
Personal experience with the gf thing? Dunno.... But I taught myself trad, gleaned some insight from friends through the years, dropped it, got back into it. I also boulder, clip bolts, ice climb, cave. I don't belong to the super elitist agenda mac daddy trad club, though I enjoy tradding more than other forms for the challenges it offers, that is neither here nor there however. What is there are offensive bolts on a now dumb-downed climb due to a coward or a selfish person who didn't consult the community before defacing a route.
tedman wrote: Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.
Everyone can forge their own opinion. And if you kick a dog, you shouldn't be pissed when it bites you back.
tardman wrote: And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week. So no really, please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.
Yup, you're wrong, re-read the thread and maybe experience some enlightenment, or just sit back with your loaded torpedos and a naive/ignorant attitude.
edited to fix quote box
(This post was edited by jrathfon on Aug 8, 2008, 8:34 PM)
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CaptainPolution
Aug 8, 2008, 8:36 PM
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man my glasses are all mucked up because of the spray from this thread. I need to solo to the top cabinet to get the cleaner, brb.
find the guy who bolted it and give him a piece of your mind
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coppertone
Aug 8, 2008, 8:50 PM
Post #38 of 140
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Why even try to reason with someone like Tedman who has no ethics and is unwilling hear what anyone is saying. Perhaps you have heard of the clean climbing revolution. People stopped using pins and started using nuts and cams to prevent damaging the rock. Unless you are in an area such as Rumney where there is very little point to doing trad lines and the local ethics is to bolt everything in site regardless of whether or not the line is protectable by gear, bolting should not take place where there is other pro. Don't get me wrong, I love climbing at Rumney it is allot of fun, but I would not want those ethics to be transferred to the Gunks. Good to know that you won't be visiting us in the Gunks anytime soon. If you cannot climb a line in its current state don't change the line, aspire to improve your skills so that you can climb it. Does everything have to be served up on a silver plater and made completely sterilized. If you want to clip bolts go to a gym. If you want to climb rock then climb in an area that suits your skill set. If you want to climb something in an area that is not compatible with your skill set make a change in yourself not the area. Should all hairy single track bike trails be paved to make it better for you. Should all backcountry skiing be groomed so that you feel better about it. Should there be a lift to the top of Tuckermines Ravine because you don't want to make the hike. Lowering the challenges and commitment of a certain activity only proves to lessen the reward when a goal is achieved. There are many routes that I have done that took time to get on because I was not ready. When I was finally able to lead these routes it was a very rewarding experience. There are many routes that I want to lead that scare the hell out of me, but when I am able to lead them it will be very fulfilling. Just because I could lead something now if we bolted the hell out of it doesn't mean that I should or even want to.
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tedman
Aug 8, 2008, 9:12 PM
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see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? Its not like adding bolts makes the holds and bigger or the rock have more friction. does it actually make it any easier? If you go and climb it trad (which you can still 100% do), NO! If you want to climb it with all or some bolts, yes! Everyone is happy! (although aparantly not).
And are you really trying to argue that slamming pitons into the wall and then taking them out so the next person slams their own into the wall a bit down from yours and takes theirs out is the same as putting in a bolt that gets used thousands of times and can fairly easily be replaced (in the same spot no less!) causing no further scaring of the rock? really? cuz thats what it sounds like to me. Really in the long run it could be argued that bolting has less impact than gear (even gear scars the rock when it rips out right?).
It only lowers the challenge for those who WANT the lower challenege. The difference between this and all of your examples is that yours force EVERYONE onto the lower challenge. Bolting, if not for the egos involved, allows both parties to be happy.
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coppertone
Aug 8, 2008, 9:22 PM
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You clearly cannot grasp the concept that the existence of bolts does change the climb. You also have no concept of ethics and first ascents. You also seem to want everything to conform to you and have no respect for what others want. I have nothing against bolting, but there is a time and a place for it. If you want to climb a route that you are not capable of doing because it is a gear route then TR it, or follow someone else, or better yet acquire the skill to lead it on gear. If none of these work for you then climb something else. I'm just glad that someone like yourself is limited to climbing in a gym or a bolted area and is clearly not capable of ruining a trad experience for others. You sound like you would be upset about Prince of Darkness in Red Rocks which is a completely overbolted climb for 6 pitches but actually requires a little gear on one pitch.
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jrathfon
Aug 8, 2008, 9:25 PM
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why am i responding...
have you heard of clean climbing? that's what the other poster was talking about, the difference between pitons and clean climbing.
have you really trad climbed? did you know gear climber's nowadays use these confounded dohickey's called cams and nuts? no, they typically don't scar the rock, and no, they typically do not rip out.
did you read those posts? or does your reading comprehension just suck that much?
did you see earlier where i said your point was assinine?
actually leaving the line clean raises the challenge to a higher challenge, isn't that the entire point, to lower the bar for the masses who haven't developed the skills necessary to accomplish the climb?
sit back one second. wait. read. think. read again. think. wait. then don't post!
edited to add: mmmm, prince of darkness. pitch one is a gear 5.7, then there is a bolt missing somewhere near the 3rd pitch where you can place a nice alien, then there is a nice stretch 3rd or 4th pitch where 2 or 3 pieces are nice.
tardman should jump on warrior's way (is that the correct name?) just to the left... he'd love it, it's got bolts, i swear.
(This post was edited by jrathfon on Aug 8, 2008, 9:28 PM)
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angry
Aug 8, 2008, 9:36 PM
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Tedman,
Post up a climbing resume, show us your experience, let us see the amount of your life you've put into climbing. Or shut the fuck up.
That is all.
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tedman
Aug 8, 2008, 9:52 PM
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The other poster was comparing placing pitons to placing bolts. I was showing the difference.
Yes I really do trad climb, Yes I know about cams and nuts and no they typically dont scar the rock, but they can, and they do occasionally rip out and scar the rock. Not very much, but much less so yarding on bolts.
Yes I read all these posts, but I never get any good answers. The only one that made me think about it for a minute was about 100-300 years from now. Everyone just responds 'ugh you dont get it, but I'm just not going to explain it to you', because either they are lazy or cant because they dont have any good arguments (I'm leaning towards the later).
you_can_still_climb_a_bolted_trad_line_only_using_trad_gear. What I dont get it how this suposedly 'ruins the line' when in fact nothing has changed for the trad climber. The rock is still there, its exactly the same, the only thing that has changed is he has more options open to him. Aparantly options are bad?
and just saying a point is asinine is asinine. Come up with intelligent logical arguments other than 'because I say so' or 'its tradition!'. Its almost like arguing with religious zealots!
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tedman
Aug 8, 2008, 9:55 PM
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No I dont have a ton of experience, I've never said I have. But that dosnt stop me from making a valid point does it? Just because it goes against the grain dosnt mean its not worth exploring.
Convince me I'm wrong using valid justifiable points and I'll concede, until then, I'm having fun at the end of an otherwise mind dulling work day!
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angry
Aug 8, 2008, 10:03 PM
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It's about commitment.
You have to commit to what you're doing, no matter what it is in life.
Think of your style as a microchasm of your whole life. If you are ok with needless bolts in the rock, I'd imagine that you've got deeper problems.
I don't envy you.
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veganclimber
Aug 8, 2008, 10:08 PM
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angry
Aug 8, 2008, 10:21 PM
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veganclimber wrote: You keep missing the point here. Bolting the route changes it whether you use the bolts or not because you always have the option. It doesn't matter what you decide to do on the ground. Even if you make it through the route without clipping the bolts you always have that safety net if you get sketched out. Say you have a trad route that has some long runouts. Then somebody comes along and bolts it. Do you really think it's the same climb if you don't actually use the bolts?
It's a new climber thing, they totally don't get it for a few years. He'll either eventually figure that out or he'll quit climbing.
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patmay81
Aug 8, 2008, 10:21 PM
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Coming from an area with great sport climbing arenas like smith rock, I'm going to have to agree with tedman... bolt it all!!!! and while you're at it could someone please put a lift into the crooked river gorge! and how about one of those airport people movers. I get really tired of the 1-2 mile hikes to my favorite smith climbs.
(please note I love smiths few moderate trad climbs, and in all seriousness would never even think about bolting them)
Edit to ad: but the people mover and lift would still be pretty cool!
(This post was edited by patmay81 on Aug 8, 2008, 10:23 PM)
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angry
Aug 8, 2008, 10:28 PM
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I'm in full support of a gondola to the diamond. Just don't bolt ariana while you're at it.
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