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Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors
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Poll: Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors
Rappelling is safer 5 / 6%
Lowering is safer 26 / 32%
Rappelling is better for preserving the integrity of bolted anchors (including chains, quicklinks, rap hangers, and regular hangers) 49 / 61%
Lowering is better for preserving the integrity of bolted anchors (including chains, quicklinks, rap hangers, and regular hangers)  0 / 0%
80 total votes
 

jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 5:00 PM
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Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors
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This is something I wanted to know after reading about people lowering through the anchors in another thread. The thought in that thread was that it was generally safer to lower and that it was the purpose of the bolted anchors being there in the first place.

I disagreed for two reasons. First I don't believe rappelling off of a bomber bolted anchor is less safe than being lowered from that anchor Given that the climber takes reasonable precautions to protect themselves on rappel (using a fireman's, friction hitch, etc). Regardless of what the situation of the route may be (traversing, overhanging, whatever). All the accidents involving climbers getting dropped from the anchors seems to support this, although not all of them were when climbers were cleaning the anchors. Secondly I think it's neither courteous or safe to lower through the anchor setup, whatever that may be. It causes wear to the equipment (though negligible it will add up over time), and someone has to replace it which requires, time, money, and effort. If someone doesn't replace it then eventually some unsuspecting soul who doesn't inspect the anchor equipment may take the big drop when they go to lower through the anchor.

I've seen both occur frequently at different areas in different parts of the country and it's curious to hear different reasoning. So what's your opinion? Anybody got any hard evidence to back up whether there are more accidents from peopel being lowered or rappelling?

Dammit, didn't make it to make multiple selections. How come I can't edit that like my post?


(This post was edited by jmeizis on May 2, 2010, 5:02 PM)


johnwesely


May 2, 2010, 5:14 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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I lower. I do it because it is faster and accepted practice at the place I climb. I have seen maybe one or two people rappelling off sport routes in the SE. If I climbed somewhere were I was expected to rappel, I would probably do that. I really don't think that wear is an issue with free rotating rings. It is more of an issue with quicklinks, but those are much more easily replaced.


shockabuku


May 2, 2010, 5:28 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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The safety of either technique resides in the competence of the people involved. Assuming mastery of both tasks on the part of the climber and belayer, I suspect it doesn't matter. It's not like rapelling accidents are unheard of.

In regards to the second issue, certainly rapping is easier on the anchors. But so what? If it's not an issue, don't make it one. Hardware wears out, it gets replaced. If the people who put it there did so with the assumption that it would wear out then it's all good.


carabiner96


May 2, 2010, 5:34 PM
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I started climbing in a place where it was standard practice to rap. I went somewhere else, and got looked at as if I had three eyes when I rapped down.


Partner climboard


May 2, 2010, 5:46 PM
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I see far more people lower where I climb. Cleaning steep sport routes on rappel isn't really practical and wear due to being lowered is negligible.


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 5:47 PM
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Re: [carabiner96] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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carabiner96 wrote:
I started climbing in a place where it was standard practice to rap. I went somewhere else, and got looked at as if I had three eyes when I rapped down.

You have three eyes!? ;)


If i need to down clean the route then i lower.

If it has quick clips and the rope runs nice i lower.

If i don't need to down clean it and am threading anyway then i rap

If the rope runs over an edge then i'll make sure someone TRs it and then rap's

TR on your own gear then the rest is situational. 1 lower or rap per group is negligible wear on the gear.


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 5:47 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Hardware wears out, it gets replaced.
If that were the case then nobody would ever see severely grooved rings, links, or chains. But they do. I think this applies to the idea that one person lowering causes negligible wear. Which is true, but then again if I throw a piece of trash out the window it's just a piece of litter, if everyone does it then it becomes a landfill.


(This post was edited by jmeizis on May 2, 2010, 5:57 PM)


shockabuku


May 2, 2010, 5:51 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
In reply to:
Hardware wears out, it gets replaced.
If that were the case then nobody would ever see severely grooved rings, links, or chains. But they do.

When does "severely grooved" require replacement? I've never seen it bad enough that I didn't trust the stuff enough to lower off of. YMMV.


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 5:59 PM
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It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. Either way, why should someone else have to pay to replace the stuff because other people won't just rappel when they're done with a climb?


altelis


May 2, 2010, 6:03 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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I think that hands down it is generally safer to lower when cleaning a steep sport or traversing route.


shockabuku


May 2, 2010, 6:04 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. Either way, why should someone else have to pay to replace the stuff because other people won't just rappel when they're done with a climb?

I'll say again, "If the people who put it there did so with the assumption that it would wear out ..." then that's why. Each area has its own rules. Why are you trying to make the world conform to your idea of correctness?


johnwesely


May 2, 2010, 6:08 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. Either way, why should someone else have to pay to replace the stuff because other people won't just rappel when they're done with a climb?

I can't imagine how many people would have to lower through fixe rings for them to need to be replaced. I imagine that the cost of doing so is a fraction of a cent per lower. The developer knows if people rap or lower at an area before they equip a route. I know that a lot of anchors in the south are maintained by the community, so if things need replacing we are the ones paying for it. Everyone still lowers.


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 6:21 PM
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Re: [altelis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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How do you figure?


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 6:24 PM
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In the west where ropes get covered in sand it doesn't take that long, sometimes less than a year, which granted is probably a fraction of a cent per lower but I've never seen a paybox at the top of a route where I could chip in my penny per lower.

I'm not trying to get people to conform to my way of thinking, hence the reason for a poll. I do have my own opinion though. Beyond that, what happens when people coming from an area that they lower through the anchors all the time go to an area where people rappel all the time?


(This post was edited by jmeizis on May 2, 2010, 6:26 PM)


altelis


May 2, 2010, 6:29 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

How do you not figure? Cleaning steep sport routes while on rapel quickly becomes dangerous, trying to suck in toward the draw, twist your body to be able to reach bolts, etc.

Sure its doable, but why taunt fate like that? I rarely see people cleaning steep sport on rapel, both out west and back east...


lena_chita
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May 2, 2010, 6:31 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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Funny, I recently asked the same thing in a different forum...

I much prefer lowering, though I was taught to rappel when I first learned.

I contribute money towards rebolting at places where I climb often, and I carry some 'biners that can be left at the anchors if the rings are too bad. Many steeper routes are equiped with drop-ins or 'biners at the top, which tells me that the route equipper was thinking of, and planning for, people lowering off the anchors.

Bottom line, it depends on the nature of the rock and local practice.

A local quarry has some bolted routes, and the people who maintain it prefer lowering, for example, and even toprope through the anchors... they put the anchors there, they replace them (and they are super-diligent about it), their choice.

At another small area in PA that i once visited, the person who showed us around was very specific about rapping off. No problem. When in Rome...


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 6:39 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

You don't know why lowering to clean a steep or traversing sport route is safer on lower than on rap>? you really are a fucking noob aren't you.

I saw someone take a 30+ foot swing into trees and rocks because they unclipped their tram (similar to unclipping the last draw while on rap) on this route



Swapped this out on the 2nd bolt of a steep route that gets projected a bunch.. ie a bunch of falling/lowering. Also used the rap rings instead of the quick links to lower off a very popular .9 that unfortunately people TR through the quick links instead of putting up their own draws and they looked worse than the biner. (hopefully someone cuts off the QL and leaves the rings soon)


so like i said. one lower per group is par for the course and expected. Top roping through the gear puts a lot more strain


johnwesely


May 2, 2010, 6:50 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
In the west where ropes get covered in sand it doesn't take that long, sometimes less than a year, which granted is probably a fraction of a cent per lower but I've never seen a paybox at the top of a route where I could chip in my penny per lower.

Maybe you could get people in Colorado and make an organization that does fixed hardware maintenance. I am sure that if it is as big of a problem as you claim, people would love to join.


pdpcardsfan


May 2, 2010, 6:51 PM
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I climb in the Red, I donate to the RRGCC, but I would find it rude and self centered of me to lower thru the anchors regardless of their nature. What right do I have to purposely increase the wear on something, no matter how small the wear might be? I agree with the the person who said "if someone throws 1 peice of garbage out their window its litter, if everyone does it it's a landfill". Personal choice of mine.


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 6:59 PM
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pdpcardsfan wrote:
I climb in the Red, I donate to the RRGCC, but I would find it rude and self centered of me to lower thru the anchors regardless of their nature. What right do I have to purposely increase the wear on something, no matter how small the wear might be? I agree with the the person who said "if someone throws 1 peice of garbage out their window its litter, if everyone does it it's a landfill". Personal choice of mine.


you will find out when you get on something more overhanging.

I would challenge you to down clean many of the routes at the red on rappel.


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 6:59 PM
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Re: [altelis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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It's just as easy as tramming in with a quickdraw. The only difference is you should use a backup and have your belayer pull you in on the side clipped through the draws. I don't feel like I'm taunting fate when I do this.


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 7:01 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
It's just as easy as tramming in with a quickdraw. The only difference is you should use a backup and have your belayer pull you in on the side clipped through the draws. I don't feel like I'm taunting fate when I do this.

please stay out west and gumby guide noobs on gumby climbs. k thnx. East coast does not want you back.


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 7:02 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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In reply to:
You don't know why lowering to clean a steep or traversing sport route is safer on lower than on rap>? you really are a fucking noob aren't you.

Wow there, who shoved something up your ass there cowboy. The same thing would happen while lowering. As soon as you unclip the tram you'd swing out. If you unclipped that last draw and still had the tram draw connected on the belayers side of the rope then you'd just pull them off their feet ya noob.


(This post was edited by jmeizis on May 2, 2010, 7:03 PM)


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 7:14 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
In reply to:
You don't know why lowering to clean a steep or traversing sport route is safer on lower than on rap>? you really are a fucking noob aren't you.

Wow there, who shoved something up your ass there cowboy. The same thing would happen while lowering. As soon as you unclip the tram you'd swing out. If you unclipped that last draw and still had the tram draw connected on the belayers side of the rope then you'd just pull them off their feet ya noob.

being on belay gives you alot more options than on rappel.. If your belayer is ready for it holding the jolt from swinging with the tram attached isn't that hard. You can also climb up a bit to a spot with less swing. on rap you're going for a swing. Being able to be hands free and able to rotate in many directions on belay can be really useful. I've been horizontal and almost inverted getting draws back before.


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 7:19 PM
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I guess I'm confused why I can clean on rappel with both hands but other people can't. Granted it's all easier on rappel because someone else is doing the work, but it only seems slightly less convenient and no less safe. By the way I'll be back east for a few weeks in Sep/Oct. I'll be hitting Rumney for a day or two so hopefully you'll be there to laugh at me when I clean everything on rappel.


cjon3s


May 2, 2010, 7:23 PM
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I lower. I can see your point about my belaying getting pulled up, but usually this isn't a problem as they are prepared for the swing when I unclip my last draw. Even still, how far away from your belayer would you be that they would get pulled that hard?

Anyway, I lower because I personally see it as safer. I understand this trash analogy, but you still have to pull the ropes when you rap. It may not be as much abrasion as when lowering, but the friction is still there.

When lowering, you never have to untie from the rope. Plus, I've heard of a lot more accidents as a result of rapping than lowering.


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 7:28 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
I guess I'm confused why I can clean on rappel with both hands but other people can't. Granted it's all easier on rappel because someone else is doing the work, but it only seems slightly less convenient and no less safe. By the way I'll be back east for a few weeks in Sep/Oct. I'll be hitting Rumney for a day or two so hopefully you'll be there to laugh at me when I clean everything on rappel.

i'd rather trust my belayer than a friction knot. It is way more convenient and for 1 person to lower is not that bad on the anchor. I suspect the anchors you see wearing out have been top roped to death by people not using their own draws for anchors.

and i will laugh.. and point.


ClimbClimb


May 2, 2010, 8:03 PM
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I know people are religious about this, but my view is that a party should top-rope through their own gear, and then the last person (to clean anchors and potentially other gear) gets lowered through the permanent gear. If the permanent gear is a bolt (not aquicklinkcor chains), it is storngly preferred to have them rap instead of lowering. Otherwise, unless the "cleaner" is really psyched about rapping, I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to be lowered.

There's wear and gear needs replacing, no doubt, one sees this ast Rumney for a example -- but it does get replaced. I think the most important thing is not lowering through bolts. Carabiners/quicklinks/chains are much more easily replaced as part of regular sport route maintenance.


jt512


May 2, 2010, 8:49 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
This is something I wanted to know after reading about people lowering through the anchors in another thread. The thought in that thread was that it was generally safer to lower and that it was the purpose of the bolted anchors being there in the first place.

I disagreed for two reasons.

1. You're a n00b.

2. You're a gumby.

Jay


jt512


May 2, 2010, 8:53 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 2, 2010, 8:54 PM)


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 9:18 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

he's a (not)guide... he can do things! Laugh


byran


May 2, 2010, 10:11 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

You swing? It's really not all that hard cleaning an overhang if you keep your momentum up. If it's really that crazy of a roof or traverse then my partner or I will clean it on the way up, but I'm pretty sure anything I can clean getting lowered off I can clean on rappel.

I rap any time I have to thread the anchors because it's just as fast as getting tied back in. Sometimes I'll even top belay my partner and we'll both rap if it's an area like IC where the rope is scarring the rock (or if there's just a lot of drag). I do occasionally get lowered off open shuts just out of pure laziness and I always lower off those fatass mussy hooks.

One question I have though - are rap rings really less resistant to wear than quicklinks? There were a couple comments in this thread about them rotating so they don't get grooved as easily. I've always thought it was a really bad idea to lower or toprope through rap rings because they're hollow on the inside. While you can visibly see the wear on a quicklink or carabiner, the aluminum on a rap ring is so thin by the time it forms any sort of "groove" its strength is dramatically reduced. Am I wrong about this?


jt512


May 2, 2010, 10:29 PM
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Re: [byran] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

You swing? It's really not all that hard cleaning an overhang if you keep your momentum up. If it's really that crazy of a roof or traverse then my partner or I will clean it on the way up, but I'm pretty sure anything I can clean getting lowered off I can clean on rappel.

Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay


byran


May 2, 2010, 10:43 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay
Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.


jt512


May 2, 2010, 10:58 PM
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byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay
Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.

I guess we're back to "try it," then. In fact, since you're a local, I'll be more specific. Go to Echo Cliffs, and try it on one the 12s in the Kamikaze Cave.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 2, 2010, 11:00 PM)


byran


May 2, 2010, 11:15 PM
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jt512 wrote:
byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay
Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.

I guess we're back to "try it," then. In fact, since you're a local, I'll be more specific. Go to Echo Cliffs, and try it on one the 12s in the Kamikaze Cave.

Jay

Don't those all have fixed draws on them? Sly

Seriously though, there's some routes out there that can only be cleaned my following them, and that's what I usually do. I have cleaned some seriously steep stuff at Red Rock and St George by just swinging around on rappel Stuff that's just as steep as anything I've ever cleaned using the "tram draw" technique while lowering.


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 11:19 PM
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1. You're a d-bag with an inferiority complex.

2. It's easy even for someone like you who thinks they're better than everyone else.

That side of the rope still clipped through the draws. Yeah, tell your belayer to pull on it. You will magically be pulled towards the next quickdraw.

Now I'm going to bed, because I want to get up early and climb tomorrow. Have fun with your circle jerk here big guy.


jt512


May 3, 2010, 12:20 AM
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byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay
Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.

I guess we're back to "try it," then. In fact, since you're a local, I'll be more specific. Go to Echo Cliffs, and try it on one the 12s in the Kamikaze Cave.

Jay

Don't those all have fixed draws on them? Sly

Seriously though, there's some routes out there that can only be cleaned my following them...

Not those routes in the cave, but you can clean them by lowering. I can't imaging why anyone would try to clean them on rappel. I doubt anyone ever has. Maybe Jeremiah will come out here and show us all how it's done.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 3, 2010, 12:22 AM)


jt512


May 3, 2010, 12:27 AM
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jmeizis wrote:
In the west where ropes get covered in sand it doesn't take that long, sometimes less than a year...

Bullshit. Even at ORG, where the sand is like diamond dust, the anchors don't wear out that quickly.

Jay


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May 3, 2010, 5:13 AM
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Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.


(This post was edited by j_ung on May 3, 2010, 5:13 AM)


blueeyedclimber


May 3, 2010, 6:13 AM
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j_ung wrote:
Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!! Cool


kaizen


May 3, 2010, 7:04 AM
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1. Statistically, way more accidents occur on rap than from lowering. If you trust your partner to safely catch you on a lead fall, then I don't see how lowering would ever be in question. This is like having airbags in your car, it will save you 10 times for everytime it will kill someone, only I bet that it's still way safer than those odds. How is this even a question?

2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

3. This seems less like a search for others opinions, and more like defending your personal stance (which I overwhelmingly disagree with).


johnwesely


May 3, 2010, 7:27 AM
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ClimbClimb wrote:
There's wear and gear needs replacing, no doubt, one sees this ast Rumney for a example -- but it does get replaced. I think the most important thing is not lowering through bolts. Carabiners/quicklinks/chains are much more easily replaced as part of regular sport route maintenance.

Who is lowering directly through the bolts? That sounds like a pretty bad idea.


johnwesely


May 3, 2010, 7:29 AM
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byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

You swing? It's really not all that hard cleaning an overhang if you keep your momentum up. If it's really that crazy of a roof or traverse then my partner or I will clean it on the way up, but I'm pretty sure anything I can clean getting lowered off I can clean on rappel.

I rap any time I have to thread the anchors because it's just as fast as getting tied back in. Sometimes I'll even top belay my partner and we'll both rap if it's an area like IC where the rope is scarring the rock (or if there's just a lot of drag). I do occasionally get lowered off open shuts just out of pure laziness and I always lower off those fatass mussy hooks.

One question I have though - are rap rings really less resistant to wear than quicklinks? There were a couple comments in this thread about them rotating so they don't get grooved as easily. I've always thought it was a really bad idea to lower or toprope through rap rings because they're hollow on the inside. While you can visibly see the wear on a quicklink or carabiner, the aluminum on a rap ring is so thin by the time it forms any sort of "groove" its strength is dramatically reduced. Am I wrong about this?

The rap rings that are pre attached to anchor bolts are solid steel. The rap rings for setting up rappels on multi pitch routes are aluminum. I doubt there is any appreciable strength loss from grooves in a steel rap ring.


Partner drector


May 3, 2010, 7:47 AM
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In reply to:
Statistically, way more accidents occur on rap than from lowering.

Just a thought, maybe that's because no one ever lowers off a thirteen pitch route but they might rap down it? Comparing the death rate between lowering and rappelling is a bit like comparing the death rate between riding motorcycles and kayaking. The situations differ enough to make it hard to do a meaningful comparison.

to the OP and others:

IMHO, rappelling is less safe simply because there is more activity involved such as untying from the rope. Each step in a dangerous process adds danger and there are simply more steps involved in rappelling.

Using the ability of the climber as a basis for saying that one is more dangerous than the other is stupid because the safety level of BOTH is increased or decreased based on that ability.

Dave


potreroed


May 3, 2010, 8:21 AM
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I always lower--it's safer and faster and the wear on the anchor is negligible.


Partner xtrmecat


May 3, 2010, 9:09 AM
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kaizen wrote:
2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob


kaizen


May 3, 2010, 9:22 AM
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xtrmecat wrote:
kaizen wrote:
2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob

I do monetarily contribute to the routes being put up in the area - this summer I'll begin equipping my own routes. I've only been at it for 2 years now, so still getting around to it.

I noticed you're in Kalispell - I've climbed at Kila crag and some area by a lake I don't recall. I met someone there, and after chatting with him he said he had equipped about 400 routes in the area - and I am pretty sure I saw him lowering off a climb....


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May 3, 2010, 9:39 AM
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kaizen wrote:
xtrmecat wrote:
kaizen wrote:
2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob

I do monetarily contribute to the routes being put up in the area - this summer I'll begin equipping my own routes. I've only been at it for 2 years now, so still getting around to it.

I noticed you're in Kalispell - I've climbed at Kila crag and some area by a lake I don't recall. I met someone there, and after chatting with him he said he had equipped about 400 routes in the area - and I am pretty sure I saw him lowering off a climb....

That would be Steve S. He solos or climbs with only a couple people, one of which is me. First "if" you saw him lower, which I seroiusly doubt, it was through anchors he personally purchased, without your help. And second, I have climbed with him probably more than anyone in the last decade, and I not only don't recall you, but I can never recall lowering Steve off of anything. And if I wasn't the lowerer, how does a soloist lower himself???. No that's not the method he uses. Try again?

Bob


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May 3, 2010, 9:51 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!! Cool

What about if the poll is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

GO


jakedatc


May 3, 2010, 9:51 AM
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xtrmecat wrote:
kaizen wrote:
2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob

The route developers i know at Rumney are fine with one person lowering off the route to clean it after the group has used their own draws. They have also moved to using large chain links attached to the bolts by large screw links. Similar to most set up's at the Red river gorge. I find this set up is a)beefier than quick clips and b) discourages TRing through the gear c) you can easily thread a bight through the bottom links and tie in on a 8 on a bight + locker and stay on belay while threading the anchors.

my draw set up on the left.. empty anchor on right (click to make bigger)



karmiclimber


May 3, 2010, 9:52 AM
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jmeizis wrote:
This is something I wanted to know after reading about people lowering through the anchors in another thread. The thought in that thread was that it was generally safer to lower and that it was the purpose of the bolted anchors being there in the first place.

I disagreed for two reasons. First I don't believe rappelling off of a bomber bolted anchor is less safe than being lowered from that anchor Given that the climber takes reasonable precautions to protect themselves on rappel (using a fireman's, friction hitch, etc). Regardless of what the situation of the route may be (traversing, overhanging, whatever). All the accidents involving climbers getting dropped from the anchors seems to support this, although not all of them were when climbers were cleaning the anchors. Secondly I think it's neither courteous or safe to lower through the anchor setup, whatever that may be. It causes wear to the equipment (though negligible it will add up over time), and someone has to replace it which requires, time, money, and effort. If someone doesn't replace it then eventually some unsuspecting soul who doesn't inspect the anchor equipment may take the big drop when they go to lower through the anchor.

I've seen both occur frequently at different areas in different parts of the country and it's curious to hear different reasoning. So what's your opinion? Anybody got any hard evidence to back up whether there are more accidents from peopel being lowered or rappelling?

Dammit, didn't make it to make multiple selections. How come I can't edit that like my post?

Rapping seems standard in my current neck of the woods (RRG), but it wasn't when I lived in Oregon. Let me clarify what I am about to say by first stating LOL that I don't climb very hard (overhung) routes. I prefer rappelling to clean because I can easily see and stop when I need to, rather than relying on my partner. I also like being in control when I am cleaning a route.
Seeing as the RRG is an extremely popular place to climb and the mantra here is to never lower, as it wears out the bolts...I agree. Yes, replacing gear may be par for the course, but RRG is virtually a huge outdoor climbing gym with so many people coming through, if everyone lowered we'd burn through gear much faster.


karmiclimber


May 3, 2010, 10:02 AM
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j_ung wrote:
Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

This is the best answer. I do think we should abide by local ethics as much as possible though.


karmiclimber


May 3, 2010, 10:08 AM
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cracklover wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!! Cool

What about if the poll is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

GO

In this case, can I ask my gumby question that hijacks the thread? Um, what about wear on the rope from lowering? I'm just CURIOUS. Thank you.


jt512


May 3, 2010, 10:11 AM
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karmiclimber wrote:
cracklover wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!! Cool

What about if the poll is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

GO

In this case, can I ask my gumby question that hijacks the thread? Um, what about wear on the rope from lowering? I'm just CURIOUS. Thank you.

Your rope will wear out faster if you lower on it than if you always rap.

Jay


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jakedatc wrote:
my draw set up on the left.. empty anchor on right (click to make bigger)

^^^ Gumby! Ya clipped your draw on the last bolt in the wrong direction! Gate should be facing right!

Jake iz gonna dye!

GWink


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May 3, 2010, 11:45 AM
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karmiclimber wrote:

Rapping seems standard in my current neck of the woods (RRG), but it wasn't when I lived in Oregon.

I climbed at the Red for a month last summer and I did not see a single person rap off a route. Not one.


bill413


May 3, 2010, 11:50 AM
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I'm glad that
Other people think that the poll is broken. (Multiple choice, people!)
Other folks think that it's situational.


karmiclimber


May 3, 2010, 12:02 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
karmiclimber wrote:

Rapping seems standard in my current neck of the woods (RRG), but it wasn't when I lived in Oregon.

I climbed at the Red for a month last summer and I did not see a single person rap off a route. Not one.

Thats weird dude. I did not cut my teeth on climbing on this side of the country, so I did not know about it, until I heard locals talking at the gym, people around the campfire at Miguels, and some local partners talk about "never lowering." I dunno, thats just what I have heard. I could be wrong, I am still a RRG newb.


(This post was edited by karmiclimber on May 3, 2010, 12:02 PM)


johnwesely


May 3, 2010, 12:15 PM
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karmiclimber wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
karmiclimber wrote:

Rapping seems standard in my current neck of the woods (RRG), but it wasn't when I lived in Oregon.

I climbed at the Red for a month last summer and I did not see a single person rap off a route. Not one.

Thats weird dude. I did not cut my teeth on climbing on this side of the country, so I did not know about it, until I heard locals talking at the gym, people around the campfire at Miguels, and some local partners talk about "never lowering." I dunno, thats just what I have heard. I could be wrong, I am still a RRG newb.

It might be more common on routes like the slabs at Roadside or other less steep routes. It is also possible that there has been a vast sea change in terms of lowering vs rappelling in the last 12 months. There is currently a poll of RRclimbing.com, it suggests that most people lower with only 22 percent of people replying "rappel always".


karmiclimber


May 3, 2010, 12:18 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
karmiclimber wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
karmiclimber wrote:

Rapping seems standard in my current neck of the woods (RRG), but it wasn't when I lived in Oregon.

I climbed at the Red for a month last summer and I did not see a single person rap off a route. Not one.

Thats weird dude. I did not cut my teeth on climbing on this side of the country, so I did not know about it, until I heard locals talking at the gym, people around the campfire at Miguels, and some local partners talk about "never lowering." I dunno, thats just what I have heard. I could be wrong, I am still a RRG newb.

It might be more common on routes like the slabs at Roadside or other less steep routes. It is also possible that there has been a vast sea change in terms of lowering vs rappelling in the last 12 months. There is currently a poll of RRclimbing.com, it suggests that most people lower with only 22 percent of people replying "rappel always".

Yeah, I don't climb very hard routes, like I said. Plus, I like rappelling, so I didn't mind. I'll have to go back and read through the thread as to why lowering is better...even if I trust my belay partner, it always feel s better to have my life in my own hands. Maybe because I am a control freak, lol.


lena_chita
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May 3, 2010, 12:54 PM
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karmiclimber wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
karmiclimber wrote:

Rapping seems standard in my current neck of the woods (RRG), but it wasn't when I lived in Oregon.

I climbed at the Red for a month last summer and I did not see a single person rap off a route. Not one.

Thats weird dude. I did not cut my teeth on climbing on this side of the country, so I did not know about it, until I heard locals talking at the gym, people around the campfire at Miguels, and some local partners talk about "never lowering." I dunno, thats just what I have heard. I could be wrong, I am still a RRG newb.

We must be climbing at the different Reds. I'm climbing the same one as John...

In Muir Valley, I believe the Webers would like people to rappel on vertical/slabby routes, to save the wear on the anchors, and lower on steep climbs where cleaning on rappel is not optimal and could result in bad swing/hitting something/broken limbs.


karmiclimber


May 3, 2010, 1:06 PM
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Look Lena...I flat out said I was repeating what I had heard and that I am a RRG newb. I am not the only one in the thread who has heard the same thing:

pdpcardsfan wrote:
I climb in the Red, I donate to the RRGCC, but I would find it rude and self centered of me to lower thru the anchors regardless of their nature. What right do I have to purposely increase the wear on something, no matter how small the wear might be? I agree with the the person who said "if someone throws 1 peice of garbage out their window its litter, if everyone does it it's a landfill". Personal choice of mine.

I just want to abide by the local ethics, thats all. I already agreed with what J_ung posted. And I don't know why you always get all b1tchy on my ass...


lena_chita
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May 3, 2010, 1:31 PM
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karmiclimber wrote:
Look Lena...I flat out said I was repeating what I had heard and that I am a RRG newb. I am not the only one in the thread who has heard the same thing:

pdpcardsfan wrote:
I climb in the Red, I donate to the RRGCC, but I would find it rude and self centered of me to lower thru the anchors regardless of their nature. What right do I have to purposely increase the wear on something, no matter how small the wear might be? I agree with the the person who said "if someone throws 1 peice of garbage out their window its litter, if everyone does it it's a landfill". Personal choice of mine.

I just want to abide by the local ethics, thats all. I already agreed with what J_ung posted. And I don't know why you always get all b1tchy on my ass...

Sorry?

Did I attack you or bitch at you in any way? Were you responding to my post?

I thought my post said that in Muir Valley the owners prefer people to rap off the anchors on vertical climbs and lower on big overhangs. And you rap --presumably on vertical routes -- so how is that an attack on you?


Gmburns2000


May 3, 2010, 1:40 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
In reply to:
You don't know why lowering to clean a steep or traversing sport route is safer on lower than on rap>? you really are a fucking noob aren't you.

Wow there, who shoved something up your ass there cowboy. The same thing would happen while lowering. As soon as you unclip the tram you'd swing out. If you unclipped that last draw and still had the tram draw connected on the belayers side of the rope then you'd just pull them off their feet ya noob.

being on belay gives you alot more options than on rappel.. If your belayer is ready for it holding the jolt from swinging with the tram attached isn't that hard. You can also climb up a bit to a spot with less swing. on rap you're going for a swing. Being able to be hands free and able to rotate in many directions on belay can be really useful. I've been horizontal and almost inverted getting draws back before.

I've given a climber a fireman's while they were cleaning a somewhat steep sport route. They decided to rap because lowering meant the rope could run over a sharp edge. They did swing out a bit when they unclipped their gear, but I was able to keep them from swinging too far simply by holding the rope.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but I don't think it would be that difficult to avoid a swing on rappel if someone is there for a fireman's.


Gmburns2000


May 3, 2010, 1:49 PM
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cjon3s wrote:

When lowering, you never have to untie from the rope.

depends on if there are quick clips at the top or on the size of the quicklink. If you can't just clip in or pass a bight, then you've got to untie.


cjon3s


May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM
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That's true, but you can easily pull up some rope and clip in with a figure eight on a bight. Then you can rely on the bolts from the entire climb to protect your ass. When rapping, you must completely untie from rope.


jakedatc


May 3, 2010, 2:01 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
In reply to:
You don't know why lowering to clean a steep or traversing sport route is safer on lower than on rap>? you really are a fucking noob aren't you.

Wow there, who shoved something up your ass there cowboy. The same thing would happen while lowering. As soon as you unclip the tram you'd swing out. If you unclipped that last draw and still had the tram draw connected on the belayers side of the rope then you'd just pull them off their feet ya noob.

being on belay gives you alot more options than on rappel.. If your belayer is ready for it holding the jolt from swinging with the tram attached isn't that hard. You can also climb up a bit to a spot with less swing. on rap you're going for a swing. Being able to be hands free and able to rotate in many directions on belay can be really useful. I've been horizontal and almost inverted getting draws back before.

I've given a climber a fireman's while they were cleaning a somewhat steep sport route. They decided to rap because lowering meant the rope could run over a sharp edge. They did swing out a bit when they unclipped their gear, but I was able to keep them from swinging too far simply by holding the rope.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but I don't think it would be that difficult to avoid a swing on rappel if someone is there for a fireman's.

If you are swinging around on rappel i'm going to guess that the benefits of it not running over an edge are going to be diminished since you're not going to be able to keep the rope in one spot.

I agree with Lena and John about RRG.. We would rap if the last person was TRing it and cleaning the draws/gear on the way up but other was it was lower off and clean. It is way faster to lower also.. which at a busy crag is useful. if someone is rapping down a steep route and taking forever i'm going to get pretty annoyed waiting when they couuld have just lowered off quicker.


ClimbClimb


May 3, 2010, 7:06 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
...I think the most important thing is not lowering through bolts.
Who is lowering directly through the bolts? That sounds like a pretty bad idea.

I don't think anyone is, I was actually just saying the same thing you -- it's the one thing about the lowering vs. rapping where everyone will probably agree.

I actually wonder if the whole "rap instead of lower" ethic was really meant to apply to lowering through bolts, but got misinterpreted to rings on chains, quicklinks, and other "disposables".


johnwesely


May 3, 2010, 8:13 PM
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ClimbClimb wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
ClimbClimb wrote:
...I think the most important thing is not lowering through bolts.
Who is lowering directly through the bolts? That sounds like a pretty bad idea.

I don't think anyone is, I was actually just saying the same thing you -- it's the one thing about the lowering vs. rapping where everyone will probably agree.

I actually wonder if the whole "rap instead of lower" ethic was really meant to apply to lowering through bolts, but got misinterpreted to rings on chains, quicklinks, and other "disposables".

Thanks for clarifying.


jmeizis


May 4, 2010, 4:57 PM
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A few things:

If you lower through the anchors, impressionable climbers may not realize that you are only lowering and might think you were toproping through the anchors (hence the reason it happens so often, at least here).

Toproping through the anchors is most damaging during the lowering part of the cycle, when the rope is weighted.

Climbing areas near population centers with abrasive rock will wear out anchor equipment faster than places with less climber traffic. Especially if those areas feature large groups and lots of gumbies who toprope through the anchors. Local equippers here have chopped rings and removed quicklinks to force climbers to rappel and keep them from toproping through the anchors.

Sometimes it may be more beneficial to lower to avoid damaging your rope such as if it's loaded over a sharp edge because of distributing the wear to different parts of the rope or it may cause more damage by causing lots of rope abrasion where it wasn't necessary. Overall it sounds like it's situational but it also sounds like most of the time it's not a huge inconvenience or much of a risk (any more so than is ever present with climbing) to just rappel.

The rope wear is negligible for one person but adds up and it seems like a major inconvenience for route equippers to have to go back and repair other climbs when they could be having fun climbing or scoping out new climbs.


shu2kill


May 5, 2010, 7:02 AM
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on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont. so if everybody knows how to rappel and is used to it, it doesnt matters what anchor they encounter at the top, they will know what to do.....

we have had people get to the top and then do not know how to rappel, so they cannot clean the anchor and one of us has to go up to clean. also sometimes we have had to lower someone on routes that create excesive rope drag that could be avoided if the climber knew how to setup a rappel and get himself down.... so now, everybody has to know how to clean the anchor and rappel down, even if they dont lead....


ClimbClimb


May 5, 2010, 2:37 PM
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Wait, your *gym* requires people to rappell b.c. you don't have anchors that can take the horrible abuse of top-roping?


jt512


May 5, 2010, 2:41 PM
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shu2kill wrote:
on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay


shu2kill


May 5, 2010, 2:43 PM
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ClimbClimb wrote:
Wait, your *gym* requires people to rappell b.c. you don't have anchors that can take the horrible abuse of top-roping?

sorry if its confusing, i didnt explain well. our gym teaches everyone to know how to rappel, and thats what we do OUTDOORS. in the gym we have some anchors set at 10 feet to teach the techniques and for the new people to practice, but opf course the gym has top roping anchors, and 4 leading lines... but we teach people to rappel for when we go out...


shu2kill


May 5, 2010, 2:47 PM
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jt512 wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard. i dont know if im explaining myself there...

others have rope hangers, but the route is overhanging , then vertical, then leaning forward. so lowering someone would drag the rope severely on the change of angle...

EDIT TO ADD: all this is outside... the gym has top rope anchors and leading routes with proper anchors at the top for lowering...


(This post was edited by shu2kill on May 5, 2010, 4:48 PM)


jmeizis


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I think it would help if you specified when you were talking about at the gym or when you were talking about the local crag outside.


shu2kill


May 5, 2010, 4:50 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
I think it would help if you specified when you were talking about at the gym or when you were talking about the local crag outside.

sorry, i mistakenly assumed it was understood that all this was outside...


patmay81


May 5, 2010, 4:53 PM
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shu2kill wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard
some routes just have bolts, no quicklinks or chains or rap rings or anything. actually thats far more common in the areas I climb than anything else.


shu2kill


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patmay81 wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard
some routes just have bolts, no quicklinks or chains or rap rings or anything. actually thats far more common in the areas I climb than anything else.

i have seen a few of those, but since i always carry some quicklinks, i put one on each hanger and rappel from there. if not, how would i go down?? the only other option would be to thread the rope through the hanger, which im definitely not doing...


jmeizis


May 5, 2010, 4:59 PM
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If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine. If you lower it will quickly destroy your rope if you do it very much. You aren't the quicklink fairy who keeps leaving all the quicklinks all over southern Colorado are you?


shu2kill


May 5, 2010, 5:02 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine. If you lower it will quickly destroy your rope if you do it very much. You aren't the quicklink fairy who keeps leaving all the quicklinks all over southern Colorado are you?

hahaha, no, im leaving quicklinks all over northern Mexico

and im not threading my rope through the hanger and then rappeling from there, not even once.... id rather leave a biner if i was out of quicklinks....


(This post was edited by shu2kill on May 6, 2010, 8:58 AM)


redlude97


May 5, 2010, 5:04 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine. If you lower it will quickly destroy your rope if you do it very much. You aren't the quicklink fairy who keeps leaving all the quicklinks all over southern Colorado are you?
You thread and rap off of normal hangers? Are you sure they aren't the metolius rap hangers?


jmeizis


May 5, 2010, 6:00 PM
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Yeah, those, or these: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...eel_bolt_hanger.html

It's much less preferred than through a quicklink, ring, or rap hanger, but you are highly unlikely to die. There's another company that makes hangers with a rounded edge, they're not rap hangers but they don't have the same sharp edge like the metolius ones. Not sure who makes them but those are fine for rapping through.


redlude97


May 5, 2010, 6:20 PM
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You have fun with that Crazy


jt512


May 5, 2010, 9:25 PM
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patmay81 wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
jt512 wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard
some routes just have bolts, no quicklinks or chains or rap rings or anything. actually thats far more common in the areas I climb than anything else.

And so how are you getting off these routes?

Jay


jt512


May 5, 2010, 9:45 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine.

One problem with calling yourself a guide before you've paid the dues and put in the time traditionally required to earn that designation is that every time you advocate a rookie move like rapping through bolt hangers you're going to appear double the fool for it.

Jay


shockabuku


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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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Trango, I think. I don't think they sell them anymore.


redlude97


May 5, 2010, 11:54 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine.

One problem with calling yourself a guide before you've paid the dues and put in the time traditionally required to earn that designation is that every time you advocate a rookie move like rapping through bolt hangers you're going to appear double the fool for it.

Jay
I guess it shouldn't really come as a surprise when he is proud enough to post pics of himself using an ADT


majid_sabet


May 6, 2010, 12:35 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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rapping from bolt hanger without a biner or rap ring is a bad habit and one day, one of you will be killed while doing it.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 6, 2010, 1:20 PM)


solorin


May 6, 2010, 2:40 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. Either way, why should someone else have to pay to replace the stuff because other people won't just rappel when they're done with a climb?

I'll say again, "If the people who put it there did so with the assumption that it would wear out ..." then that's why. Each area has its own rules. Why are you trying to make the world conform to your idea of correctness?

Wait a second.

Aren't the 'people who put it there' ' trying to make the world conform to your idea of correctness'?

Not that I think trying to make the world conform to my idea of correctness is wrong. I practice it heartily. Someone has to maintain standards and bleed for principles. Of course, sometimes standards must be exceeded, and principle becomes only guideline.

It's in the balance - the offset balance between a painful fingerlock and an insecure dime edge.

In reply to:
j_ung wrote:Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

blueeyedclimber wrote: You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!!

cracklover wrote: What about if the poll is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

End of thread. The rest is ungentlemanly bickering and name-calling.

What if local climbing ethic is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

P.S.
What are these 'rules' you speak about? Rules for climbing? Really?!!


rangerrob


May 6, 2010, 12:56 PM
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Re: [solorin] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems


redlude97


May 6, 2010, 1:05 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems
Why don't you stop being selfish and holding up people in line while you set up a rap and clean? Follow local climbing ethics, its as simple as that. Many crag anchors are set up with the intention of lowering, its significantly faster which is a consideration that many of the developers took into consideration. Following some dogmatic practice in all situations in climbing is foolish. This doesn't have anything to do with gym climbers


jakedatc


May 6, 2010, 1:23 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems

Rumney Guidebook Pg 18
"Please use your own gear until the last climber of your party loweres off the route"

come back when you get a clue dumbass.

clean this on rap


or this one.. climber in blue



(This post was edited by jakedatc on May 6, 2010, 1:24 PM)


Partner cracklover


May 6, 2010, 1:34 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems

RR, the situation at the Gunks is totally different to that at many sport crags around the country. In short, while your ethic about never lowering off fixed gear is exactly right at the Gunks, it simply is no more applicable at Rumney (and many other steep sport crags) than a gym ethic is applicable at the Gunks.

GO


shu2kill


May 6, 2010, 1:39 PM
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jakedatc wrote:

Rumney Guidebook Pg 18
"Please use your own gear until the last climber of your party loweres off the route"

come back when you get a clue dumbass.

clean this on rap
[image]http://www.deansplace.net/~grahamski/Summer%20%2704%20Roadtrip%20webpage/pictures/rumney/0506_rumney_bonsai.JPG[/image]

or this one.. climber in blue
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/Red%20River%20Gorge/IMG_1234.jpg?t=1273177353[/image]

if you are rappelling on 2 strands (obviously) and one of them is still clipped through all the quickdraws, why cant you just lower until you are at the quickdraw's height, and then your belay, who is now off belay, just pulls the strand passing through the quickdraws to pull you to the wall?? this is how i have cleaned overhanging routes. well, overhanging where you land 10 or 12 feet from the base of the wall. i imagine if it was a lot more overhung, it would ve more difficult...

and this got me thinking, how do you clean off a long roof???


redlude97


May 6, 2010, 1:48 PM
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shu2kill wrote:
jakedatc wrote:

Rumney Guidebook Pg 18
"Please use your own gear until the last climber of your party loweres off the route"

come back when you get a clue dumbass.

clean this on rap
[image]http://www.deansplace.net/~grahamski/Summer%20%2704%20Roadtrip%20webpage/pictures/rumney/0506_rumney_bonsai.JPG[/image]

or this one.. climber in blue
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/Red%20River%20Gorge/IMG_1234.jpg?t=1273177353[/image]

and this got me thinking, how do you clean off a long roof???
With a tram...


jakedatc


May 6, 2010, 1:49 PM
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shu2kill wrote:
jakedatc wrote:

Rumney Guidebook Pg 18
"Please use your own gear until the last climber of your party loweres off the route"

come back when you get a clue dumbass.

clean this on rap
[image]http://www.deansplace.net/~grahamski/Summer%20%2704%20Roadtrip%20webpage/pictures/rumney/0506_rumney_bonsai.JPG[/image]

or this one.. climber in blue
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/Red%20River%20Gorge/IMG_1234.jpg?t=1273177353[/image]

if you are rappelling on 2 strands (obviously) and one of them is still clipped through all the quickdraws, why cant you just lower until you are at the quickdraw's height, and then your belay, who is now off belay, just pulls the strand passing through the quickdraws to pull you to the wall?? this is how i have cleaned overhanging routes. well, overhanging where you land 10 or 12 feet from the base of the wall. i imagine if it was a lot more overhung, it would ve more difficult...

and this got me thinking, how do you clean off a long roof???

exactly.. when it gets more overhanging and more traversing or both it is much safer and easier to be on belay. When you are rapping then you are required to trust a 6mm cord on a friction hitch to keep your ass off the deck. as opposed to your belayer lowering you down. I've been sport climbing for about 8 years now and have cleaned on rappel less than 5 times and those were dead vertical routes where the rope went over an edge and it still sucked.

Faster, safer, more convenient and the local ethic at MANY sport areas. 1 lower off per group is NOT that harmful to the gear.


shu2kill


May 6, 2010, 2:03 PM
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jakedatc wrote:

exactly.. when it gets more overhanging and more traversing or both it is much safer and easier to be on belay. When you are rapping then you are required to trust a 6mm cord on a friction hitch to keep your ass off the deck. as opposed to your belayer lowering you down. I've been sport climbing for about 8 years now and have cleaned on rappel less than 5 times and those were dead vertical routes where the rope went over an edge and it still sucked.

Faster, safer, more convenient and the local ethic at MANY sport areas. 1 lower off per group is NOT that harmful to the gear.

i wish we had "local ethics" where i climb. here everybody does what they want to. the people i meet at the gym, or the ones who climb with me, i try to convince them to always clean on rappel, we dont have that many overhanging routes anyways and some very popular routes have edges where lowering would drag the rope, or 2 hangers with quicklinks at an angle that wont allow lowering if the rope is threaded through both...... and we are very few climbers, i think i know 90% of all climbers in my state, so lowering fast so another person can try the route is not really an issue....

so as you say, it depends on local ethics, and ONE person lowered per party wont do much damage...


shu2kill


May 6, 2010, 2:11 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
With a tram...

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws Crazy)


redlude97


May 6, 2010, 2:18 PM
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shu2kill wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
With a tram...

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws Crazy)
Even with a tram it can be a pain in the @ss to clean some overhanging routes, which is why many routes have permanent or preplaced draws on those sections. I would never dream of asking my belayer to pull me into those routes while rapping


shu2kill


May 6, 2010, 2:23 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
shu2kill wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
With a tram...

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws Crazy)
Even with a tram it can be a pain in the @ss to clean some overhanging routes, which is why many routes have permanent or preplaced draws on those sections. I would never dream of asking my belayer to pull me into those routes while rapping

haha, thats another thing i wish we could do here. im sure "permanent draws" would get stolen in less than a month!!! we have had anchors stolen, from routes without a top out!!! so there is no way they could have walked to the top, lean over and unbolt them. the thief had to be a climber. how he lowered from that route, i cannot say...


altelis


May 6, 2010, 3:50 PM
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shu2kill wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
With a tram...

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws Crazy)

Yep. These suckers:


sure do make cleaning overhanging sport routes a breeze!






Cool


jmeizis


May 6, 2010, 4:01 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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There's a difference in saying that you're not going to die doing it and advocating that one do it one a regular basis.


jmeizis


May 6, 2010, 4:03 PM
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It's interesting that you posted a picture of that climb (Peer Pressure I believe). I'm 90% sure I have cleaned it on rappel with no ill effect. Maybe I'll try it again in the fall.


jt512


May 6, 2010, 4:10 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
There's a difference in saying that you're not going to die doing it and advocating that one do it one a regular basis.

Too bad your post implied the latter.

Jay


redlude97


May 6, 2010, 4:14 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine.
I dunno you sound pretty sure of yourself


jakedatc


May 6, 2010, 4:56 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
It's interesting that you posted a picture of that climb (Peer Pressure I believe). I'm 90% sure I have cleaned it on rappel with no ill effect. Maybe I'll try it again in the fall.

that is social outcast and i don't think you climb hard enough so it won't matter

i will still mock you since it's a waste of time and mostly makes you look like an idiot when it is the norm to lower off.


jmeizis


May 6, 2010, 5:12 PM
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In reply to:
It's much less preferred than through a quicklink, ring, or rap hanger, but you are highly unlikely to die.

Is that more clear?


jmeizis


May 6, 2010, 5:29 PM
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It's hard to tell whether the picture was of Peer Pressure or Social Outcast. And no I don't climb that hard because I make an effort to do things onsight. It's been a good season so far so who knows.

You come mock me. I'm pretty sure I climb way more than you do so I don't really care how hard you think you climb.


redlude97


May 6, 2010, 5:30 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
In reply to:
It's much less preferred than through a quicklink, ring, or rap hanger, but you are highly unlikely to die.

Is that more clear?
Clearer? Yes. True? Maybe. Can you quantify "highly unlikely"?


jakedatc


May 6, 2010, 5:39 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
It's hard to tell whether the picture was of Peer Pressure or Social Outcast. And no I don't climb that hard because I make an effort to do things onsight. It's been a good season so far so who knows.

You come mock me. I'm pretty sure I climb way more than you do so I don't really care how hard you think you climb.

sounds like you should stick to the head down ass out.. can rap clean all you want. and onsite it



jmeizis


May 6, 2010, 5:42 PM
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Nope can't quantify it, too many variables.


jmeizis


May 6, 2010, 5:44 PM
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If I could make sense of that "sentence" I would try to think of something to reply with. What's the photo about anyways?


rangerrob


May 6, 2010, 6:13 PM
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oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

RR


jt512


May 6, 2010, 6:24 PM
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rangerrob wrote:
oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

RR

I thought that dinosaurs were extinct.

Jay


granite_grrl


May 6, 2010, 6:56 PM
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jmeizis wrote:
It's interesting that you posted a picture of that climb (Peer Pressure I believe). I'm 90% sure I have cleaned it on rappel with no ill effect. Maybe I'll try it again in the fall.
heh, I'd like to see that gong show.....


I_do


May 7, 2010, 1:07 AM
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jt512 wrote:
rangerrob wrote:
oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

RR

I thought that dinosaurs were extinct.

Jay

If you were a pretty blond, adolescent girl with low standards I'd totally marry you.


rangerrob


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Re: [I_do] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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There's at least a few left.


scottek67


May 7, 2010, 7:29 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
rapping from bolt hanger without a biner or rap ring is a bad habit and one day, one of you will be killed while doing it.
unless said bolt hanger was specifically designed to do so as was mentioned earlier. have you not seen these?


redlude97


May 7, 2010, 7:34 AM
Post #121 of 128 (1577 views)
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Re: [scottek67] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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scottek67 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
rapping from bolt hanger without a biner or rap ring is a bad habit and one day, one of you will be killed while doing it.
unless said bolt hanger was specifically designed to do so as was mentioned earlier. have you not seen these?
Except jmeizis said that you will be fine rapping off normal bolt hangers


scottek67


May 7, 2010, 7:55 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
scottek67 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
rapping from bolt hanger without a biner or rap ring is a bad habit and one day, one of you will be killed while doing it.
unless said bolt hanger was specifically designed to do so as was mentioned earlier. have you not seen these?
Except jmeizis said that you will be fine rapping off normal bolt hangers
eeeee musta skipped right past that one... bad idea! majid you are still my hero.Angelic


Partner cracklover


May 7, 2010, 9:10 AM
Post #123 of 128 (1552 views)
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Re: [rangerrob] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

RR

Us lame asses are pretty much entirely talking about clipping bolts. The Gunks is kind of a rare situation, with multi-pitch trad climbs in which so many of the routes just get the first pitch gang-toproped off bolted anchors.

Again, you're not really understanding the conditions this thread is referring to when you say "your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it". Most of the time, at sport crags, there is no second. Everyone leads it, and the last person up is responsible for cleaning the route on the way down. The question of the thread is: on rappel, or on lower.

But I agree that in the Gunks, those convenience bolted stations shouldn't even be there. Of course we both know that if they weren't there all kinds of fixed mank would appear in their place. So the bolts are most likely the lesser of two evils anyway.

GO


rangerrob


May 7, 2010, 3:14 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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Dammit Cracklover, why do you have to go and make sense and everything. I was enjoying being villified and hated on.


Partner j_ung


May 9, 2010, 6:16 PM
Post #125 of 128 (1469 views)
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Re: [rangerrob] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
Dammit Cracklover, why do you have to go and make sense and everything. I was enjoying being villified and hated on.

A Few years ago, I let an air biscuit fly in a situation that did not exactly warrant the unchecked floating of such bodily gasses. I can't recall why I and several others were there. Maybe it was a wedding reception or some such. Suffice to say we were all dressed to the nines -- use your imagination. At that instant, when the conversation stopped and the moment became painfully awkward, I faced a difficult decision. Should I have ignored the... um... event... and continue the conversation despite that everybody knew it was me? Should I have apologized and removed myself to the bathroom? No and no. I did what you just did. I grinned the grin of the self-righteous and said, "That's right, bitches."

Strong showing, sir. I may not enjoy the smell of your opinion, but I wholeheartedly respect where it led. Smile


jakedatc


May 9, 2010, 6:24 PM
Post #126 of 128 (622 views)
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Registered: Mar 12, 2003
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Re: [cracklover] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
rangerrob wrote:
oh I forgot. You lame asses are primarily talking about clipping bolts, and apparently your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it. I forgot that all you gym weenies just clip bolts. My bad. Just expecxt to get your ass handed to you if you are found toproping and lowering off of fixed anchors, (which shouldn't be there in the first place).

RR

Us lame asses are pretty much entirely talking about clipping bolts. The Gunks is kind of a rare situation, with multi-pitch trad climbs in which so many of the routes just get the first pitch gang-toproped off bolted anchors.

Again, you're not really understanding the conditions this thread is referring to when you say "your belayer is too weak to clean the route when they second it". Most of the time, at sport crags, there is no second. Everyone leads it, and the last person up is responsible for cleaning the route on the way down. The question of the thread is: on rappel, or on lower.

But I agree that in the Gunks, those convenience bolted stations shouldn't even be there. Of course we both know that if they weren't there all kinds of fixed mank would appear in their place. So the bolts are most likely the lesser of two evils anyway.

GO

I'm going to TR through the Laurel anchors alll fucking day just to spite Rob.. oh wait.. the guided parties do that all fucking day anyway. saves me time.


ClimbClimb


May 9, 2010, 10:01 PM
Post #127 of 128 (598 views)
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Re: [rangerrob] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing.

I don't thinks that's true, many other reasons listed above for lowering besides laziness, among them:
1. safety
2. ability to clean certain routes
3. freeing up the climb for the next party sooner


jakedatc


May 10, 2010, 5:08 AM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
rangerrob wrote:
Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing.

I don't thinks that's true, many other reasons listed above for lowering besides laziness, among them:
1. safety
2. ability to clean certain routes
3. freeing up the climb for the next party sooner

Rob is in the belief that the world revolves around the gunks so he's a bit lost on how the rest of us operate.


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