I started climbing in a place where it was standard practice to rap. I went somewhere else, and got looked at as if I had three eyes when I rapped down.

Hardware wears out, it gets replaced.

If that were the case then nobody would ever see severely grooved rings, links, or chains. But they do.

It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. Either way, why should someone else have to pay to replace the stuff because other people won't just rappel when they're done with a climb?

It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. Either way, why should someone else have to pay to replace the stuff because other people won't just rappel when they're done with a climb?

How do you figure?

How do you figure?

In the west where ropes get covered in sand it doesn't take that long, sometimes less than a year, which granted is probably a fraction of a cent per lower but I've never seen a paybox at the top of a route where I could chip in my penny per lower.

I climb in the Red, I donate to the RRGCC, but I would find it rude and self centered of me to lower thru the anchors regardless of their nature. What right do I have to purposely increase the wear on something, no matter how small the wear might be? I agree with the the person who said "if someone throws 1 peice of garbage out their window its litter, if everyone does it it's a landfill". Personal choice of mine.

It's just as easy as tramming in with a quickdraw. The only difference is you should use a backup and have your belayer pull you in on the side clipped through the draws. I don't feel like I'm taunting fate when I do this.

You don't know why lowering to clean a steep or traversing sport route is safer on lower than on rap>? you really are a fucking noob aren't you.

Wow there, who shoved something up your ass there cowboy. The same thing would happen while lowering. As soon as you unclip the tram you'd swing out. If you unclipped that last draw and still had the tram draw connected on the belayers side of the rope then you'd just pull them off their feet ya noob.

I guess I'm confused why I can clean on rappel with both hands but other people can't. Granted it's all easier on rappel because someone else is doing the work, but it only seems slightly less convenient and no less safe. By the way I'll be back east for a few weeks in Sep/Oct. I'll be hitting Rumney for a day or two so hopefully you'll be there to laugh at me when I clean everything on rappel.

This is something I wanted to know after reading about people lowering through the anchors in another thread. The thought in that thread was that it was generally safer to lower and that it was the purpose of the bolted anchors being there in the first place.

I disagreed for two reasons.

How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

You swing? It's really not all that hard cleaning an overhang if you keep your momentum up. If it's really that crazy of a roof or traverse then my partner or I will clean it on the way up, but I'm pretty sure anything I can clean getting lowered off I can clean on rappel.

Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay

Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.

I guess we're back to "try it," then. In fact, since you're a local, I'll be more specific. Go to Echo Cliffs, and try it on one the 12s in the Kamikaze Cave.

Jay

Don't those all have fixed draws on them?

Seriously though, there's some routes out there that can only be cleaned my following them...

In the west where ropes get covered in sand it doesn't take that long, sometimes less than a year...

Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

There's wear and gear needs replacing, no doubt, one sees this ast Rumney for a example -- but it does get replaced. I think the most important thing is not lowering through bolts. Carabiners/quicklinks/chains are much more easily replaced as part of regular sport route maintenance.

You swing? It's really not all that hard cleaning an overhang if you keep your momentum up. If it's really that crazy of a roof or traverse then my partner or I will clean it on the way up, but I'm pretty sure anything I can clean getting lowered off I can clean on rappel.

I rap any time I have to thread the anchors because it's just as fast as getting tied back in. Sometimes I'll even top belay my partner and we'll both rap if it's an area like IC where the rope is scarring the rock (or if there's just a lot of drag). I do occasionally get lowered off open shuts just out of pure laziness and I always lower off those fatass mussy hooks.

One question I have though - are rap rings really less resistant to wear than quicklinks? There were a couple comments in this thread about them rotating so they don't get grooved as easily. I've always thought it was a really bad idea to lower or toprope through rap rings because they're hollow on the inside. While you can visibly see the wear on a quicklink or carabiner, the aluminum on a rap ring is so thin by the time it forms any sort of "groove" its strength is dramatically reduced. Am I wrong about this?

Statistically, way more accidents occur on rap than from lowering.

2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob

I do monetarily contribute to the routes being put up in the area - this summer I'll begin equipping my own routes. I've only been at it for 2 years now, so still getting around to it.

I noticed you're in Kalispell - I've climbed at Kila crag and some area by a lake I don't recall. I met someone there, and after chatting with him he said he had equipped about 400 routes in the area - and I am pretty sure I saw him lowering off a climb....

You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!!

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob

This is something I wanted to know after reading about people lowering through the anchors in another thread. The thought in that thread was that it was generally safer to lower and that it was the purpose of the bolted anchors being there in the first place.

I disagreed for two reasons. First I don't believe rappelling off of a bomber bolted anchor is less safe than being lowered from that anchor Given that the climber takes reasonable precautions to protect themselves on rappel (using a fireman's, friction hitch, etc). Regardless of what the situation of the route may be (traversing, overhanging, whatever). All the accidents involving climbers getting dropped from the anchors seems to support this, although not all of them were when climbers were cleaning the anchors. Secondly I think it's neither courteous or safe to lower through the anchor setup, whatever that may be. It causes wear to the equipment (though negligible it will add up over time), and someone has to replace it which requires, time, money, and effort. If someone doesn't replace it then eventually some unsuspecting soul who doesn't inspect the anchor equipment may take the big drop when they go to lower through the anchor.

I've seen both occur frequently at different areas in different parts of the country and it's curious to hear different reasoning. So what's your opinion? Anybody got any hard evidence to back up whether there are more accidents from peopel being lowered or rappelling?

Dammit, didn't make it to make multiple selections. How come I can't edit that like my post?

Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

What about if the poll is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

GO

In this case, can I ask my gumby question that hijacks the thread? Um, what about wear on the rope from lowering? I'm just CURIOUS. Thank you.

my draw set up on the left.. empty anchor on right (click to make bigger)

Rapping seems standard in my current neck of the woods (RRG), but it wasn't when I lived in Oregon.

I climbed at the Red for a month last summer and I did not see a single person rap off a route. Not one.

Thats weird dude. I did not cut my teeth on climbing on this side of the country, so I did not know about it, until I heard locals talking at the gym, people around the campfire at Miguels, and some local partners talk about "never lowering." I dunno, thats just what I have heard. I could be wrong, I am still a RRG newb.

It might be more common on routes like the slabs at Roadside or other less steep routes. It is also possible that there has been a vast sea change in terms of lowering vs rappelling in the last 12 months. There is currently a poll of RRclimbing.com, it suggests that most people lower with only 22 percent of people replying "rappel always".

Thats weird dude. I did not cut my teeth on climbing on this side of the country, so I did not know about it, until I heard locals talking at the gym, people around the campfire at Miguels, and some local partners talk about "never lowering." I dunno, thats just what I have heard. I could be wrong, I am still a RRG newb.

I climb in the Red, I donate to the RRGCC, but I would find it rude and self centered of me to lower thru the anchors regardless of their nature. What right do I have to purposely increase the wear on something, no matter how small the wear might be? I agree with the the person who said "if someone throws 1 peice of garbage out their window its litter, if everyone does it it's a landfill". Personal choice of mine.

Look Lena...I flat out said I was repeating what I had heard and that I am a RRG newb. I am not the only one in the thread who has heard the same thing:


I just want to abide by the local ethics, thats all. I already agreed with what J_ung posted. And I don't know why you always get all b1tchy on my ass...

being on belay gives you alot more options than on rappel.. If your belayer is ready for it holding the jolt from swinging with the tram attached isn't that hard. You can also climb up a bit to a spot with less swing. on rap you're going for a swing. Being able to be hands free and able to rotate in many directions on belay can be really useful. I've been horizontal and almost inverted getting draws back before.

When lowering, you never have to untie from the rope.

I've given a climber a fireman's while they were cleaning a somewhat steep sport route. They decided to rap because lowering meant the rope could run over a sharp edge. They did swing out a bit when they unclipped their gear, but I was able to keep them from swinging too far simply by holding the rope.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but I don't think it would be that difficult to avoid a swing on rappel if someone is there for a fireman's.

Who is lowering directly through the bolts? That sounds like a pretty bad idea.

I don't think anyone is, I was actually just saying the same thing you -- it's the one thing about the lowering vs. rapping where everyone will probably agree.

I actually wonder if the whole "rap instead of lower" ethic was really meant to apply to lowering through bolts, but got misinterpreted to rings on chains, quicklinks, and other "disposables".

on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

Wait, your *gym* requires people to rappell b.c. you don't have anchors that can take the horrible abuse of top-roping?

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

I think it would help if you specified when you were talking about at the gym or when you were talking about the local crag outside.

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard

some routes just have bolts, no quicklinks or chains or rap rings or anything. actually thats far more common in the areas I climb than anything else.

If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine. If you lower it will quickly destroy your rope if you do it very much. You aren't the quicklink fairy who keeps leaving all the quicklinks all over southern Colorado are you?

If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine. If you lower it will quickly destroy your rope if you do it very much. You aren't the quicklink fairy who keeps leaving all the quicklinks all over southern Colorado are you?

or these: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...eel_bolt_hanger.html

some routes just have bolts, no quicklinks or chains or rap rings or anything. actually thats far more common in the areas I climb than anything else.

If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine.

One problem with calling yourself a guide before you've paid the dues and put in the time traditionally required to earn that designation is that every time you advocate a rookie move like rapping through bolt hangers you're going to appear double the fool for it.

Jay

I'll say again, "If the people who put it there did so with the assumption that it would wear out ..." then that's why. Each area has its own rules. Why are you trying to make the world conform to your idea of correctness?

j_ung wrote:Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

blueeyedclimber wrote: You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!!

cracklover wrote: What about if the poll is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems

The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems

The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems

Rumney Guidebook Pg 18
"Please use your own gear until the last climber of your party loweres off the route"

come back when you get a clue dumbass.

clean this on rap
[image]http://www.deansplace.net/~grahamski/Summer%20%2704%20Roadtrip%20webpage/pictures/rumney/0506_rumney_bonsai.JPG[/image]

or this one.. climber in blue
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/Red%20River%20Gorge/IMG_1234.jpg?t=1273177353[/image]

and this got me thinking, how do you clean off a long roof???

if you are rappelling on 2 strands (obviously) and one of them is still clipped through all the quickdraws, why cant you just lower until you are at the quickdraw's height, and then your belay, who is now off belay, just pulls the strand passing through the quickdraws to pull you to the wall?? this is how i have cleaned overhanging routes. well, overhanging where you land 10 or 12 feet from the base of the wall. i imagine if it was a lot more overhung, it would ve more difficult...

and this got me thinking, how do you clean off a long roof???

exactly.. when it gets more overhanging and more traversing or both it is much safer and easier to be on belay. When you are rapping then you are required to trust a 6mm cord on a friction hitch to keep your ass off the deck. as opposed to your belayer lowering you down. I've been sport climbing for about 8 years now and have cleaned on rappel less than 5 times and those were dead vertical routes where the rope went over an edge and it still sucked.

Faster, safer, more convenient and the local ethic at MANY sport areas. 1 lower off per group is NOT that harmful to the gear.

With a tram...

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws )

Even with a tram it can be a pain in the @ss to clean some overhanging routes, which is why many routes have permanent or preplaced draws on those sections. I would never dream of asking my belayer to pull me into those routes while rapping

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws )