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jt512
Feb 22, 2007, 11:14 PM
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gblauer wrote: Post incident analysis by the gym owner (he was not a witness, but gathered information through discussions with me and the belayer) suggests the following elements contributed to the loss of control of the rope. The belayer was: 1) Too far from the wall 2) Standing at an incorrect angle to the wall (far off and too the right of the climb) 3) The belayer had her brake hand too far away from her body and attempted to brake by wrapping the rope around her body with her brake hand ending up on her buttocks 4) The belayer had too much slack in the system
Items 1, 2, and 4 do not affect the braking power of the ATC. Item 3 does, but if she got her hand all the way to her butt, then the device would have locked. Basically, the whole analysis makes no sense.
If she had been standing too far from the base of the route, then, possibly, she got pulled off balance when you fell, and she might have reflexively put her brake hand out in front of her to catch herself, thus preventing he device from locking.
Jay
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billl7
Feb 22, 2007, 11:48 PM
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One clear picture that emerges ...
Imagine a belayer giving a quite casual or inattentive belay including all 4 points. Due to not being fully breaked off (#3), a load hitting would move rope through the ATC. The belayer reacts by fully breaking as best can be done under the immediate circumstances (#3 - hand to buttocks). But there is already too much rope in the system at this point to prevent the injury - too much rope due to #4 and possibly #1 if the belayer is jerked towards the wall.
Bill L
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jt512
Feb 23, 2007, 12:24 AM
Post #203 of 256
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billl7 wrote: One clear picture that emerges ... Imagine a belayer giving a quite casual or inattentive belay including all 4 points. Due to not being fully breaked off (#3), a load hitting would move rope through the ATC. The belayer reacts by fully breaking as best can be done under the immediate circumstances (#3 - hand to buttocks). But there is already too much rope in the system at this point to prevent the injury - too much rope due to #4 and possibly #1 if the belayer is jerked towards the wall. Bill L
How tall is the gym? 15 feet?
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billl7
Feb 23, 2007, 12:53 AM
Post #204 of 256
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jt512 wrote: billl7 wrote: One clear picture that emerges ... How tall is the gym? 15 feet?
Edit: You probably mean the one of Gail's accident; I don't know so, yes, I'm making an assumption about its height.
For the other accident I mentioned, it is probably a little more than 30 feet. Then take off 5 feet or so between the anchors and the highest clips.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 23, 2007, 1:10 AM)
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billl7
Feb 23, 2007, 1:20 AM
Post #205 of 256
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Gail said that via this accident she joined the "30 foot club." Sounds like that gym and the gym I mentioned are about the same height.
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jt512
Feb 23, 2007, 1:26 AM
Post #206 of 256
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billl7 wrote: Gail said that via this accident she joined the "30 foot club." Sounds like that gym and the gym I mentioned are about the same height.
The belayer didn't lock off. That's the bottom line.
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billl7
Feb 23, 2007, 1:54 AM
Post #207 of 256
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jt512 wrote: billl7 wrote: Gail said that via this accident she joined the "30 foot club." Sounds like that gym and the gym I mentioned are about the same height. The belayer didn't lock off. That's the bottom line.
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jt512
Feb 23, 2007, 2:17 AM
Post #208 of 256
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billl7 wrote: jt512 wrote: billl7 wrote: Gail said that via this accident she joined the "30 foot club." Sounds like that gym and the gym I mentioned are about the same height. The belayer didn't lock off. That's the bottom line. I expect a little more out of my belayer than just locking off.
That's a relevant comment.
Jay
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billl7
Feb 23, 2007, 2:27 AM
Post #209 of 256
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jt512 wrote: billl7 wrote: jt512 wrote: billl7 wrote: Gail said that via this accident she joined the "30 foot club." Sounds like that gym and the gym I mentioned are about the same height. The belayer didn't lock off. That's the bottom line. I expect a little more out of my belayer than just locking off. That's a relevant comment.
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gblauer
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Feb 23, 2007, 3:12 AM
Post #210 of 256
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Here's the thing:
The belayer was never jerked into the wall, she was never lifted off the ground.
The only sensation I felt was falling. I let go of the top hold, last bolt at chest height and I took a long whip to the floor (there was no "catch" or tug on my harness). I remember falling, I do NOT remember any sensation of being lowered or a "controlled" fall at any time. (And you guys know that I take a lot of whippers, so I do know the difference between being lowered and whipping.)
The belayer reported burning on the palm of her brake hand.
Frankly, I did not understand the gym owners analysis, because he seemed to believe that the "lead fall" vs. "top rope" fall made a difference in the belayers perception of what was happening.
Anyways, Thanks for your insights.
Oh yeah, the walls are 35 feet, I am five feet and a couple inches, so I figure I fell 30 feet.
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jt512
Feb 23, 2007, 3:32 AM
Post #211 of 256
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If she didn't get pulled into the wall, then it doesn't matter where she was standing. It also means that she didn't lock off! What probably happened was that she initially didn't have the rope locked off enough, it started to run through the device, and either she couldn't get it under control in time or she simply panicked and never locked it off.
Jay
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billl7
Feb 23, 2007, 4:01 AM
Post #212 of 256
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jt512 wrote: If she didn't get pulled into the wall, then it doesn't matter where she was standing. It also means that she didn't lock off! What probably happened was that she initially didn't have the rope locked off enough, it started to run through the device, and either she couldn't get it under control in time or she simply panicked and never locked it off.
Edit: I don't understand the distinction the owner's making about "lead fall" vs "top rope" fall. Maybe this has more to do with the accident report than the analysis of the fall.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 23, 2007, 4:55 AM)
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cracklover
Feb 23, 2007, 5:01 AM
Post #213 of 256
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jt512 wrote: If she didn't get pulled into the wall, then it doesn't matter where she was standing. It also means that she didn't lock off! What probably happened was that she initially didn't have the rope locked off enough, it started to run through the device, and either she couldn't get it under control in time or she simply panicked and never locked it off. Jay
Bingo.
Gail, where were the burns on your belayer's hands? Or were they significantly burnt at all?
GO
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curt
Feb 23, 2007, 5:50 AM
Post #214 of 256
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The owner of your gym is as retarded as your belayer.
Curt
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jt512
Feb 23, 2007, 5:55 AM
Post #215 of 256
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curt wrote: The owner of your gym is as retarded as your belayer. Curt
That was more curt than I would have put it, but then, I'm not Curt.
Jay
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billl7
Feb 23, 2007, 1:41 PM
Post #216 of 256
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Gail,
I agree with these other yo-yo's that not being locked off is the primary issue. But I would encourage you to also factor in the findings about poor belay position and too much slack.
Bill L
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pylonhead
Feb 23, 2007, 6:31 PM
Post #217 of 256
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billl7 wrote: Edit: I don't understand the distinction the owner's making about "lead fall" vs "top rope" fall. Maybe this has more to do with the accident report than the analysis of the fall.
The only distinction I could think of was that, if Gail's last clip was above her tie in then the belayer might have been taking in slack, as opposed to feeding it out.
Did we ever find out if the belayer uses palm up, pinch and slide belaying?
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gblauer
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Feb 23, 2007, 8:39 PM
Post #218 of 256
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pylonhead wrote: Did we ever find out if the belayer uses palm up, pinch and slide belaying?
The belayer reported that she was palm down (right hand on the brake side of the rope) and her left hand on the climbing side of the rope. Her right hand was stretched away from her body.
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jt512
Feb 23, 2007, 9:16 PM
Post #219 of 256
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gblauer wrote: Her right hand was stretched away from her body.
As in, "not locked off?"
Jay
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gblauer
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Feb 23, 2007, 9:22 PM
Post #220 of 256
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Basically, yes.
I believe a more capable/experienced belayer would have been able to effectively lockoff in the position. Her 2 years of experience, coupled with all of the other stuff mentioned above seemed to have impacted her ability to lock off with her hand outstretched. (away from her body).
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jt512
Feb 23, 2007, 9:24 PM
Post #221 of 256
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gblauer wrote: Basically, yes. I believe a more capable/experienced belayer would have been able to effectively lockoff in the position. Her 2 years of experience, coupled with all of the other stuff mentioned above seemed to have impacted her ability to lock off with her hand outstretched. (away from her body).
Huh? That is not how you lock off an ATC -- ever! You bring your brake hand down to your hip.
Jay
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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 23, 2007, 9:34 PM
Post #222 of 256
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Was the ATC clipped to the belay loop or directly to the harness?
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billl7
Feb 23, 2007, 10:41 PM
Post #223 of 256
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jt512 wrote: gblauer wrote: Basically, yes. I believe a more capable/experienced belayer would have been able to effectively lockoff in the position. Her 2 years of experience, coupled with all of the other stuff mentioned above seemed to have impacted her ability to lock off with her hand outstretched. (away from her body). Huh? That is not how you lock off an ATC -- ever! You bring your brake hand down to your hip. Jay
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 23, 2007, 11:05 PM)
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billcoe_
Feb 23, 2007, 11:25 PM
Post #224 of 256
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Here we are without the "beat a dead horse" pictogram too.
Damn
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jt512
Feb 23, 2007, 11:58 PM
Post #225 of 256
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billl7 wrote: jt512 wrote: gblauer wrote: Basically, yes. I believe a more capable/experienced belayer would have been able to effectively lockoff in the position. Her 2 years of experience, coupled with all of the other stuff mentioned above seemed to have impacted her ability to lock off with her hand outstretched. (away from her body). Huh? That is not how you lock off an ATC -- ever! You bring your brake hand down to your hip. Jay More to the point, the break hand needs to pull in the opposite direction of the load strand for max breaking. In a typical gym setting, that is down at the hip. But the analysis included that the belayer was in a poor position. Worst case would be if the belayer was way way out from under the 1st clip with the break hand in the general direction of the first clip. Edit: with an ATC.
Bill, it makes no practical difference where the belayer is standing; if she had locked off at the hip, she'd have caught the fall. Even if she had been above the climber, locking off at the hip would be good enough.
You and RHJ are just confounding the issue with irrelevancies.
Jay
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