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jt512
Mar 17, 2009, 9:17 PM
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onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: justroberto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important. It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off. I'm sure you can. Jay Thank you. That is an important admission.
No, actually, it's not.
Jay
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notapplicable
Mar 17, 2009, 9:22 PM
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jt512 wrote: notapplicable wrote: jt512 wrote: dingus wrote: A palm down belay IS locked, most of the time.... THAT'S THE POINT. And most of the time it's a stupid point...When you belay, if you're locked off by default, you can't be as responsive with the rope to the climbers movements as you can when you have the rope in a neutral position. When starting from a locked off position you can't as effectively (or at all) give a dynamic belay to lengthen a fall or yard in slack to shorten a fall. Jay I agree with you on this. My method does not allow for the same degree of swift and subtle rope movement as the P&S. Thank you. That is an important admission. Jay
It's a limitation inherent to the system. I consider it to be manageable but clearly it's not for everyone.
edit: my spelling is terrible
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 17, 2009, 9:23 PM)
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curt
Mar 17, 2009, 9:23 PM
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jt512 wrote: justroberto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important. It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off. I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't. Jay
No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this.
Curt
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jt512
Mar 17, 2009, 9:30 PM
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curt wrote: jt512 wrote: justroberto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important. It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off. I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't. Jay No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this. Curt
You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand?
Jay
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jt512
Mar 17, 2009, 9:33 PM
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This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand.
Way to go rockclimbing.com!
Jay
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justroberto
Mar 17, 2009, 9:50 PM
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jt512 wrote: This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand. Way to go rockclimbing.com! Jay
You realize that you have to slide your brake hand down the rope in a hip belay, right?
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jt512
Mar 17, 2009, 9:53 PM
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justroberto wrote: jt512 wrote: This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand. Way to go rockclimbing.com! Jay For generations? Really? You realize that you have to slide your brake hand down the rope in a hip belay, right?
You realize that when you slide your brake hand down the rope in a hip belay, and the pinch-and-slide, but not when you shuffle your hand up, which point I have made 150,000 times in the last three days, you have not let go with your brake hand.
Jay
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curt
Mar 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
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jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: justroberto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important. It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off. I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't. Jay No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this. Curt You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand? Jay
No. I do catch the falls with my brake hand--but, of course you knew that.
Curt
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reno
Mar 17, 2009, 10:16 PM
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jt512
Mar 17, 2009, 10:31 PM
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curt wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: justroberto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important. It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off. I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't. Jay No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this. Curt You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand? Jay No. I do catch the falls with my brake hand--but, of course you knew that. Curt
Straw man.
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curt
Mar 17, 2009, 10:37 PM
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jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: justroberto wrote: jt512 wrote: In reply to: Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important. It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off. I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't. Jay No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this. Curt You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand? Jay No. I do catch the falls with my brake hand--but, of course you knew that. Curt Straw man.
Quite an ironic reply, considering your last one.
Curt
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reno
Mar 17, 2009, 10:38 PM
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jt512 wrote: No, Reno. Holding on with your brake hand letting go with it are not splitting hairs. If you think they are, you are incompetent.
Jay, you're a funny guy. Ever consider comedy as a career?
I'm this website's champ at splitting hairs, and even *I* can't get past how pedantic you're being.
Several people here have made astute, informed, and correct observations, but you've ignored them all because they don't coalesce 100% with your position.
Here's a tip: You are not the world's foremost expert in climbing techniques.
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notapplicable
Mar 17, 2009, 10:46 PM
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jt512 wrote: This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand. Way to go rockclimbing.com! Jay
Alright alright alright, keep your voice down man!!
Look fellas, I think were gonna have to bring Jay in on this or he's gonna ruin everything.
Jay, what you are witnessing is what is known as TNCI09 (The nOOb Culling Initiative of 2009). This sport is growing at an uncontrolled rate and the crags are being overrun. The consensus is that a dramatic rise in gumby deaths is the only hope for a long term solution and this new belay method gets them to do away with one another while reducing backlash against the existing community.
You don't have to work with us on this but we're counting on your silence.
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jt512
Mar 17, 2009, 11:15 PM
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reno wrote: jt512 wrote: No, Reno. Holding on with your brake hand letting go with it are not splitting hairs. If you think they are, you are incompetent. Jay, you're a funny guy. Ever consider comedy as a career? I'm this website's champ at splitting hairs, and even *I* can't get past how pedantic you're being.
Reno, if you think that the difference between shuffling your brake hand up the rope and pinching the brake side of the rope with your guide hand so that you don't have to shuffle it up the rope is a case of splitting hairs, then you are simply ignorant. The reason that the pinch and slide method was invented was specifically to avoid that very shuffle maneuver, which necessitates intermittently releasing your the grip on the rope.
If it is true that letting go of the rope with the brake hand is actually safe, then that would overturn one of the most fundamental rules that climbers have been taught for generations. That's a very big claim for the climbing game, and hence requires very good evidence. The proponents of this new Really-It's-OK-To-Release-The-Grip-With-The-Belay-Hand-After-All-(In-Fact-It's-Even-Safer-Than-The-Way-American-Climbers-Have-Been-Belaying-For-Decades) technique have no objective evidence that it's true. That leaves the issue in an empirical stalemate (because there's really no evidence for the other side, either), but not a practical stalemate. If you want to overturn the most fundamental rule in belaying, the onus is on you to prove that you're right.
Jay
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jt512
Mar 17, 2009, 11:17 PM
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notapplicable wrote: jt512 wrote: This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand. Way to go rockclimbing.com! Jay Alright alright alright, keep your voice down man!! Look fellas, I think were gonna have to bring Jay in on this or he's gonna ruin everything. Jay, what you are witnessing is what is known as TNCI09 (The nOOb Culling Initiative of 2009). This sport is growing at an uncontrolled rate and the crags are being overrun. The consensus is that a dramatic rise in gumby deaths is the only hope for a long term solution and this new belay method gets them to do away with one another while reducing backlash against the existing community.
Oh. In that case, never mind.
Jay
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dingus
Mar 17, 2009, 11:39 PM
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I'm going to continue using a palm down belay in my trad climbing. Nothing you've ever said on the subject has correlated 100% to the reality of my climbing. Of course I'll continue to use the palm up method too. Often I switch back and forth several times in a pitch of belaying, depending upon context.
Palm down I will continue to slide my brake hand along the rope to reposition it. Nothing you've said about ropes zipping through belay devices bears any resemblance to what I've seen and done in 30 plus years of climbing.
Palm up, no grip on the rope - yes I can see that is a problem. They go hand in hand as it were, yuk yuk.
'Safest belay technique' is clearly situational and no one technique will solve all problems.
Interesting discussion with throught provoking points, as always.
DMT
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curt
Mar 17, 2009, 11:48 PM
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dingus wrote: ...Palm down I will continue to slide my brake hand along the rope to reposition it. Nothing you've said about ropes zipping through belay devices bears any resemblance to what I've seen and done in 30 plus years of climbing...
Nor does is bear any resemblance to reality.
Curt
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reno
Mar 18, 2009, 12:02 AM
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jt512 wrote: Reno, if you think that the difference between shuffling your brake hand up the rope and pinching the brake side of the rope with your guide hand so that you don't have to shuffle it up the rope is a case of splitting hairs, then you are simply ignorant.
Ah yes... the "If you don't agree with me, it's because you're a fucking retard" reply.
Good talking to ya, Jay. Hope you're well. Many happy climbs.
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 12:52 AM
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curt wrote: dingus wrote: ...Palm down I will continue to slide my brake hand along the rope to reposition it. Nothing you've said about ropes zipping through belay devices bears any resemblance to what I've seen and done in 30 plus years of climbing... Nor does is bear any resemblance to reality. Curt
Thanks for correcting my delusional belief that you're supposed to always maintain a grip with your brake hand.
Jay
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onceahardman
Mar 18, 2009, 12:54 AM
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I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying."
A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems.
The most important rules in belaying are Pay Attention, and Don't Be an Idiot.
I've climbed with your ilk before. "Belay MY way", "Anchor MY way", "You are doing it all wrong"...etc. No Fun.
I don't climb with that type very much any more. I've had my share of disagreements with curt around here, but it's pretty easy to see I'd have a lot more fun with him, and probably get more pitches done, secondary to not getting analysis paralysis at every anchor.
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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 12:59 AM
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onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems.
I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this.
Curt
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 1:40 AM
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onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying."
What I submit is that you're not just loosening your grip. You're not gripping at all. I submit that there is a difference between having your hand around the rope and actually gripping it.
What you guys are suggesting is so fundamentally wrong that I can't even believe that we are having this conversation.
Jay
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jt512
Mar 18, 2009, 1:45 AM
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curt wrote: onceahardman wrote: I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying." A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems. I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this. Curt
Yeah, me and every other American climber who was taught the pinch-and-slide method, and to whom it was explained that the reason for pinching the rope was precisely to avoid the very shuffling maneuver you guys are claiming is not only safe, but actually safer than the method that was taught to avoid it.
Jay
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dingus
Mar 18, 2009, 1:49 AM
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I think most experienced climbers slide their brake hand up and down the rope without using the other hand, from time to time if not more often.
As in the vast majority, sport climbers included. Any visit to the locak crags will confirm this.
It is standard operating procedure, text book noob admonishments notwithstanding.
DMT
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