I tend to break red point projects into three general ranges based the climber's skill at using red point tactics and the route's difficulty in relation to the climber's consistent flash level. Assuming that a climber has well developed stamina, is good at memorizing movement, and has well refined red point tactics a general framework might look like this:

1) Quick red points:These are routes that are 1 - 2 letter grades harder than the climber's consistent flash level and the climber can easily do them in a day as they take 1 - 4 tries. For routes in this range the goal in the first burn is to learn everything you need to know about the route for the red point. The goal of the second attempt is to get the red point. If you don't get the red point then figure out why, make corrections and then get the red point on the third try.

2) Moderate length red points: 3 - 4 letter grades above consistent flash level. These project can take 5 - 12 tries over the course of 1 - 3 days. They consist of several burns specifically dedicated to learning and memorizing the details of the route, the sequences, the moves, the clips, the rests, pacing, etc. In this range there are usually at least 3 learning burns and 2 - 4 attempts at the actual red point.

3) Long term projects. These are routes that are 5 or more letter grades above the climber's current flash level. They can take 15 - 20 or more tries over extended periods of time. Because the climber is working at a level high above his base level of skill in terms of fitness and movement success can be elusive, and the amount that can be achieved in a day is diminished. It can take many tries to do the basic learning necessary for an eventual red point, and it can be very hard to know when to switch from learning burns to red point burns. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write.

Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write.

You guys should sit around a circular table, smoke some Cubans (literally?) and talk about the current economics, or lack of. Was it your foot or the cat jay, sure rhymes.

Qouted for posterity.

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this. TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?

You are clearly showing signs of being a sheep on both accounts.

Yeah yeah, you don't get it.. i know. Just as well.

People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

Fine, someone else will have to explain it to me, because I legitimately do not understand what it means to "break beta."

I almost always like to work the beta out for myself. The exception being when I'm working on something at my absolute upper limit. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

The reason is simple - for stuff at my upper limit, I don't know what I don't know. That is to say, I don't have the *feel* for those kinds of moves. I will typically take one or two burns to learn as much as I can, and then solicit advice. I won't necessarily take it verbatim, but it's so much better than wasting time and effort being totally stupid.

GO

I'm guessing he means he figured out the right sequence that worked for him. No idea why he didn't say that. <shrug>

Of course, he may actually be proving your point. Had he taken the effort to track down the right beta, it may not have taken him over a year to send!

I almost always like to work the beta out for myself. The exception being when I'm working on something at my absolute upper limit. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

The reason is simple - for stuff at my upper limit, I don't know what I don't know. That is to say, I don't have the *feel* for those kinds of moves. I will typically take one or two burns to learn as much as I can, and then solicit advice. I won't necessarily take it verbatim, but it's so much better than wasting time and effort being totally stupid.

GO

don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.

I don't know what you mean by "totally removes the mandatory learning process". How can you totally remove something that's mandatory?

Does getting beta diminish one aspect of learning? Absolutely. Figuring a move out on your own gives you a deeper understanding of the kinesthetics. It kind of teaches your body to recognize the situation and understand the "why" in a way that might help recognize the same situation more quickly next time.

However, there is a trade-off involved between time and energy spent working something out, and the additional gains you get after. Reinventing every single wheel is ridiculous. If I can figure out 99.9% of a climb that's at the edge of my ability by myself in a couple burns, and then get one key piece of beta that might take me 20 more tries to figure out because I've never done a move like that in that situation, it's just being smart.

I typically attempt to OS every climb I do, and I learn a lot because of it, and am a better OS climber because I try. And on routes that should be within my ability level, I will typically resist any attempts by others to give beta until I manage to send on my own. But I make exceptions.

The first ever 12 I did, I had someone spraying me down with move-by-move beta as I did it. It helped. I have no problem with training wheels when moving into a new realm.

GO

I meant mandatory in the sense making fundamental personal ''problem solve'' improvement. Unless their is always somebody at hand to give beta then that person will seriously struggle when it comes to projecting alone.

I would much rather go through that phase on high 7's than try to go through it on high 8's. The learning process of knowing what is right and what is wrong is something you get from time spent actually doing things wrong.. as to define right. The further away from human limits you are while drilling that the easier it ''should'' be from the mental side of things. Being told moves that required pure blood and sweat to figure out in no way helps for the bigger picture. For that one send sure.. but i'm thinking way way ahead of that. Would you rather be working a 9a that may take 5 years to finally send or climb a few hundred 7's and 8s?. That i suppose depends on what reasons a person is motivated to climb.

I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

You'r analogy is kinda wrong though, as far as my body is concerned their was no wheel until i invented it. I can tell a beginner and even show them how to use a drop knee.. but their body has no idea why it has to do that.. because it has not been in the wrong position enough times to calculate and understand it is easier.

Also, doing things the wrong way can still be the ''right'' way on another route and another move that can be tapped into later. So it is not exactly wasted energy.

so in the bigger picture things like instructors, videos of top athletes, training togethwer with stronger athletes than you are detrimental to any sport.

and wait, the same applies to anything else : whenever you learn something from other people's experience you are taking a detrimental shortcut, in the bigger picture

i've always understood that discussing beta with other climbers somehow falls in the same category as the above examples, but thats just me...