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8styx8


Apr 25, 2013, 10:36 AM
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[ClimbX] Cracked hanger
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~ EDIT

Hi all,

Does anyone know what might be the reason for this hanger to crack in this manner?

background:
~ Placed on granite (ex quarry), with water run off from the top of the crag. This is Singapore, Dairy Farm. All ClimbX hangers have since been removed by bolter & cracked hanger have been sent back to manufacturer. Location have no issue with salt/salty water/wind etc.
~ Hanger was in place since around Nov 2012
~ This is one of 2 that shows crack. Another one is cracked at the top between clip-hole and bolt hole.Link to pic of both hanger http://imgur.com/a/WlmXr
~ other hangers of this brand shows more tarnishing/rust vs other brand that is being used locally (fixe, petzl, etc)
~ DON'T KNOW if there were abnormal loading on these hangers.


(This post was edited by 8styx8 on May 12, 2013, 1:56 AM)


notapplicable


Apr 25, 2013, 11:49 AM
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Re: [8styx8] [ClimbX] Cracked hanger [In reply to]
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Why does this not surprise me.

Climb X is the bottom of the climbing gear barrel. Please use a reputable manufacturer for fixed gear situations in the future.


JimTitt


Apr 25, 2013, 1:07 PM
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8styx8 wrote:
Hi all,

Does anyone know what might be the reason for this hanger to crack in this manner?

Chinese stainless steel, it does that.


8styx8


Apr 25, 2013, 1:27 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] [ClimbX] Cracked hanger [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
Why does this not surprise me.

Climb X is the bottom of the climbing gear barrel. Please use a reputable manufacturer for fixed gear situations in the future.

Aside from ClimbX reputation, would there be any other reason?


JimTitt wrote:

Chinese stainless steel, it does that.

Care to elaborate? Considering plenty of stainless steel product (safety or otherwise) would be made in China I imagine. QC, specific manufacturing method, etc


JimTitt


Apr 25, 2013, 10:55 PM
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Ive tested a considerable amount of Chinese made stainless gear over the years from at least 8 suppliers; karabiners, chain, maillons etc and bolt hangers made in Europe but using Chinese stainless steel. On average it all fails at around 1/3rd of the expected load and corrodes at an alarming rate. The marked or claimed strengths of the products are pure fiction.
I also sent a 316 marked karabiner for analysis and it was of not made of a recognised grade of stainless steel nor did it achieve the requirements to be classified as stainless.
There have been tests done by the yachting press (the main market for this stuff) with similar results.

The above relates only to mainland China, we have no problems with products sourced from Taiwan as yet.


8styx8


Apr 26, 2013, 3:05 AM
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Thanks. Any links to publicly available info on such testing?


(This post was edited by 8styx8 on Apr 26, 2013, 9:24 AM)


Partner cracklover


Apr 26, 2013, 9:13 AM
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Thanks for posting, Jim. That's horrifying.

GO


shotwell


Apr 26, 2013, 12:24 PM
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cracklover wrote:
Thanks for posting, Jim. That's horrifying.

GO

Agreed.

Also, while I would be quite surprised if anything happened as a result of public pressure on ClimbX I am blown away by the lack of hue and cry for an investigation into the failure. If this really is a raw materials problem than there could be a whole BATCH of hangers that are subject to failure. Each one of those could be a ticking time bomb. This hanger and any other failed ClimbX hanger needs to have its material properties analyzed by a reputable equipment manufacturer.


climbxgear


Apr 26, 2013, 3:20 PM
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Re: [8styx8] [ClimbX] Cracked hanger [In reply to]
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UPDATE June 16

The hangers arrived, they appear to be be bent outward along the break as if pried off the rock or a nut being tightened while it was placed on an uneven surface or with something under one side of the hanger. Not in a downard pull as would be expected. They are being forwarded to a lab for further inspection. Our current stock shows no defect. Thousands were inspected and hundreds were destructively tested. To early to report it as tampering but it appears to be not normal usage. We have also sent team member to inspect hangers placed over the last few years and have found no problems or issues. will update again when more information arrives.

Most industry members and climbing shop staff refer to hangers as Steel meaning (zinc plated steel) or as (Stainless Steel) Meaning one of the many types of Stainless Steel used in Hanger production. My reply was meant for the Author of the post using simple terms, not the many engineers who frequent the site. I appologize.

I will state again that the high grade materials were from Tawian, a country known for quality materials. The Stainless was not from China as suggested many times now, then repeated. The supplier is the same quality material supplier used by several other climbing companies.


The Facts so Far: May

This is the first report of a possible hanger problem.

Climb X produces both plated steel and stainless steel Hangers.

We have requsted the hangers in question be returned for evaluation and testing.

Testing is also in progress on other productions of hangers, our brand and others. No problems can be found with the current stock other than the indoor hangers will corrode more rapidly in a wet or salt/coastal environment (not intended for outtdor use)

Both styles of hangers have been on the market for several years. Steel for indoors and stainless for outdoors.

The report our office recieved stated one hanger but showed several photos of the hanger.

The Hangers are produced in Tawian where many other hangers are produced. Some of the other hangers are mentioned in this thread. Taiwan materials were used.

The question was what can cause this? Lots of possibilities. Steel hangers could have been unknowingly used instead of stainless. Often bolts/hangers in Asia are hammered to keep people from being able to remove/steal them, a material flaw, excessive load, they could have been tampered with, production issue, mis-use, reaction between the bolt and the hanger, these are some of the reasons. We will post again when we have useful information.

We have posted a warning on our web site for people purchasing Hangers to only use the stainless for outdoors. The Heat treated steel are for indoor/gym use.

Thanks for your patience to those of you with serious interest.

Climb X Gear


(This post was edited by climbxgear on Jun 13, 2013, 3:35 PM)


acorneau


Apr 26, 2013, 6:41 PM
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climbxgear wrote:
The Facts so Far:

This is the first report of a possible hanger problem.

Climb X produces both steel and stainless steel Hangers.

We have requsted the hangers in question be returned for evaluation and testing.

Testing is also in progress on other productions of hangers, our brand and others. No problems can be found with the current stock other than the indoor hangers will corode more rapidly in a wet or salt/coastal enviroment (not intended for outdor use)

Both styles of hangers have been on the market for several years. Steel for indoors and stainless for outdoors.

The report our office recieved stated one hanger but showed several photos of the hanger.

The Hangers are produced in Tawian where many other hangers are produced. Some of the other hangers are mentioned in this thread. Taiwan materials were used.

The question was what can cause this? Lots of possibilities. Steel hangers could have been unknowingly used instead of stainless. Often bolts/hangers in Asia are hammered to keep people from being able to remove/steal them, a material flaw, exsessive load, they could have been tampered with, production issue, missuse, reaction between the bolt and the hanger, these are some of the reasons. We will post again when we have useful information.

We have posted a warning on our website for people purchasing Hangers to only use the stainless for outdoors. The Heat treated steel are for indoor/gym use.

Thanks for your patience to those of you with serious interest.

Climb X Gear


I'm sure many of us will be very anxious to see the results of your findings.


JimTitt


Apr 27, 2013, 12:01 AM
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8styx8 wrote:
Thanks. Any links to publicly available info on such testing?

Not that I know of though there was a long thread on cracking carabiners on Chockstone (the Australian forum) not long ago.

In fairness to Crag X it is extremely difficult to balance the need for quality and the endless demands from climbers for cheap hangers (or any climbing gear for that matter).
The world market for stainless steel is well over 30 million tons and China produces ca 40% of this and the rest of Asia ca 30%, to keep track of who is buying what from where is not particularly easy. The normal way for a manufacturer to control the sourcing and quality is to request a mill certificate which gives the analysis for each batch, this however cost extra AND at the end of the day is only a piece of paper which anyone can produce.
Taiwan is one of the largest markets for China and imports around 50,000 tons of flat stainless steel per month so the potential for a steel distributor to deliver or substitute sub-standard material is enormous and if the manufacture is outsourced another potential avenue for failure is introduced.

At least two European manufacturers have had their fingers burnt by their steel stockholders deliving sub-standard material and only by finding reliable sourcing and endless testing can one be sure of a reliable product, in the case of the cracked hangers shown the problem may anyway that the hanger and material itself are of good quality but that it is an unsuitable grade for the local environment. It is the responsibility of the end user to ensure the product is suitable for the use it is being put to, not that of the manufacturer.


rightarmbad


Apr 27, 2013, 6:00 AM
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The bicycle industry are currently suffering from The same inferior materials/ crevice corrosion problems with spokes.
Rain water is the catalyst that sets it off in spokes that have crap materials and a particular size imperfection on the surface that sets up an anaerobic condition.
Good info to had with a google search for crevice corrosion.


jt512


Apr 28, 2013, 11:16 AM
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8styx8 wrote:
Hi all,

Does anyone know what might be the reason for this hanger to crack in this manner?

background:
~ Placed on granite (ex quarry), with water run off from the top of the crag
~ Hanger was in place for about 6 month (bolted around Nov 2012)
~ This is one of 2 that shows crack. Another one is cracked at the top between clip-hole and bolt hole.
~ other hangers of this brand shows more tarnishing/rust vs other brand that is being used locally (fixe, petzl)
~ DON'T KNOW if there were abnormal loading on these hangers

~ EDIT: Link to pic of both hanger http://imgur.com/a/WlmXr. removed attachment

Now we know what the X in ClimbX stands for.


USnavy


May 7, 2013, 11:09 PM
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8styx8 wrote:
Hi all,

Does anyone know what might be the reason for this hanger to crack in this manner?
Because Climb X is a knock-off disgrace. Buy a hanger from a real manufacturer next time.


(This post was edited by USnavy on May 7, 2013, 11:16 PM)


USnavy


May 7, 2013, 11:14 PM
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Re: [climbxgear] [ClimbX] Cracked hanger [In reply to]
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climbxgear wrote:


Climb X produces both steel and stainless steel Hangers.
That's like saying Ford produces automobiles and cars. What you mean to say is you produce low-carbon zinc-plated steel hangers and grade 304 stainless steel hangers. Why should the OP send the hanger to you when you dont even know the correct terminology for your products? Anyway, there is nothing to analyze. Climb X is a substandard company that rips its ideas off from Mad Rock. That's the source of the problem.


(This post was edited by USnavy on May 15, 2014, 1:27 AM)


billcoe_


May 8, 2013, 10:44 AM
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USnavy wrote:
climbxgear wrote:


Climb X produces both steel and stainless steel Hangers.

USnavy wrote:
That's like saying Ford produces automobiles and cars. What you mean to say is you produce low-carbon zinc-plated steel hangers and grade 304 stainless steel hangers. Why should the OP send the hanger to you when you dont even know the correct terminology for your products? Anyway, there is noting to analyze. Climb X is a substandard company that rips its ideas off from Mad Rock. That's the source of the problem.

I think you are being overly touchy US Navy. Steel or mild steel - so what? Everyone knows that most stainless hangers are 304 unless noted otherwise. Joe Garland has been affiliated with both Mad Rock and ClimbX. There has not been previous issues with their hangers, they've been sturdy little workhorses at a reasonable price. For myself, although I like the massive Fixe stainless hangers, they weight a shit ton, and if I'm hiking into the backcountry to put up a few routes that only me or a buddy might enjoy, I would actually prefer Madrock/Climbx hangers as they are lighter, and you can rap off of them in an emergency as they have a slight bend and softening at the clip in point that no other hanger has.

They have a problem, folks need to determine the scope of the issue and we should help them work though it.

Edit, where is the location of the Quarry? 304 stainless will corrode in a salt water environment, ESPECIALLY if the stainless was not passivated. (Hint to ClimbX, as your supplier if they passivated the material after Mfg). Even 316 will fail, just not as fast. The first poster mentioned its wet there, but I see wet and 304 stainless doing well in the high country well away from the ocean.


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on May 8, 2013, 10:49 AM)


USnavy


May 8, 2013, 11:12 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:

I think you are being overly touchy US Navy. Steel or mild steel - so what?
What would you think if the owners manual for your vehicle referenced the steering wheel as the "circular thingamabob" or the acceleration peddle as "the flat and black plastic thing?" It's unprofessional and it brings into question the qualifications of the company. If anyone other than Climb X made that post I wouldn't say anything. But when the manufacturer of the hanger doesn't even know the correct terminology for its own products, it sure as hell is not qualified to engineer a safety-critical device. But that is already clear from other evidence. Also, I am well aware of how Joe stole classified information from Mad Rock and how he copied their entire product line under the Climb X brand, I dont need a lesson, the media covered the topic well.




(This post was edited by USnavy on May 8, 2013, 11:17 AM)


amarius


May 8, 2013, 12:35 PM
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Your frustration with usage of word "steel" in very understandable - took me a few hours to figure out which alloy was best for my, non climbing, application.
I find McMaster-Carr a good starting/overview for materials
So, here is what McMaster-Carr says about steel. Note all the different styles that still describe "steel", and how properties change
And, here is stainless steel. Again, note all the different types, especially table at the bottom that deals with corrosion resistance of the various ss types.

Unfortunately, I can not provide any insight into the failure of those hangers


acorneau


May 17, 2013, 5:32 AM
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Re: [climbxgear] [ClimbX] Cracked hanger [In reply to]
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climbxgear wrote:
We have requsted the hangers in question be returned for evaluation and testing.

Testing is also in progress on other productions of hangers, our brand and others. No problems can be found with the current stock other than the indoor hangers will corode more rapidly in a wet or salt/coastal enviroment (not intended for outdor use)


So it's been nearly a month. What were your findings of your tests?


USnavy


May 25, 2013, 7:30 PM
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acorneau wrote:
climbxgear wrote:
We have requsted the hangers in question be returned for evaluation and testing.

Testing is also in progress on other productions of hangers, our brand and others. No problems can be found with the current stock other than the indoor hangers will corode more rapidly in a wet or salt/coastal enviroment (not intended for outdor use)


So it's been nearly a month. What were your findings of your tests?


That they have no idea. I mean, all they do is copy Mad Rock's product line, so it is not like they employ any real engineers anyway.


(This post was edited by USnavy on May 25, 2013, 7:31 PM)


8styx8


Jun 13, 2013, 2:43 AM
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Hey there, do you have any update for me? Some sort of explanation would be appreciated


Gdog42


Jul 2, 2013, 2:05 PM
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bearbreeder


Jul 2, 2013, 4:52 PM
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do you own climb X shoes?

they last longer than my sportivas

Wink


redlude97


Jul 2, 2013, 5:05 PM
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You're a fucking idiot. I don't use and won't use climb-x or madrock gear, but at least get the story straight before you make up a bunch of shit based on some baseless assumptions. Without rehashing all the details, madrock moved to a new manufacturing plant, and the old plant that was making all of madrock's acceptable continued to make the same products with a different name printed on them. This isn't the same as what you are accusing them of.


(This post was edited by redlude97 on Jul 2, 2013, 5:12 PM)


gosharks


Jul 2, 2013, 7:52 PM
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I'm not a fan of Climb X, but you're being a little ridiculous here.


(This post was edited by gosharks on Jul 2, 2013, 7:53 PM)

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