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clee03m
Feb 10, 2009, 12:30 AM
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I am sorry, but I really didn't like your article. No matter how you put it, it was sexist. I don't know why women choose to stay in relationships where they are forced to do most of the child care if they feel it is not fair. It really bothers me that your response is wait until you are married/have a child. Once again, I am married. My husband does more house work than me (I work longer hours). I fully expect us to equally share in raising our future children. He knew I was a feminist when we married, and if I wasn't convinced that he was also a feminist, I would not have married. If he refuses to take equal part in raising our children, my marriage would be a lie, and it wouldn't last. I'm not saying that having kids will be easy. I fully expect to have to cut back on climbing. But not because my husband is a sexist. If it didn't work out the way you had invisioned in your marriage, I am sorry. But don't tell me to just wait and see. That is an insult to my husband and guys out there who do not share your view.
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Sebs
Feb 10, 2009, 2:18 AM
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Hi Clee03m,
No worries that you didn't like my article. I love the frankness and insights that you shared. That is terrific that your husband does more housework and that you have a wonderful relationship.
I do believe children introduce an X factor into relationships, maybe not good or bad, but you find yourself facing time pressures and situations that you couldn't previously envision. I'd love other parents, committed non-parents, or future parents to chime in on this! Someone please feel free to tell me that this is a crock and you find I got this all wrong.
Here's one. It's the sports team issue. Great for kids. Gloms up time. Another reason why it's hard to climb.
I think sports are wonderful and I love the friendships that children can develop being on teams. But the games are on weekends. My daughter's soccer games are on Sundays, my son's soccer games are on Saturday. My son's gymnastics coach is trying to get him to bump up to the higher level of pre-team, which also has workouts and meets on weekends. So it's this constant push-pull between wanting to do the best for your children. But wanting to leave something over for yourself.
And of course as a parent you also want happy, well adjusted children because frankly, if your children are miserable and resentful, they're going to make your life miserable.
So what do you do? Not have them do sports teams that they love, are good at, and get a lot out of, so you have more time to climb? Particularly if they're talented at the sport and if they stick with it, they might be able to get a sports college scholarship, which is no slight thing, since last time I checked, 1 year of private college runs about $50,000. One year. Gulp.
Yet I'm writing this after tucking my children in. And yes, earlier, in the day, on the car ride over to the Y where I was driving them to some sports classes, the kids were squabbling. (Ohmygod, it was the classic: He started up...no, she did...he called ne manes... she said I was stupid....)
That is one side of it. The other is tucking them into bed, which is amazing. We chat a bit and then they look at you with their eyes and tell you how much they love you and you're the most wonderful mommy in the world. Your heart swells. It's so amazingly sweet. And for me, I didn't want to miss that. Nothing is like that.
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rockie
Feb 10, 2009, 4:59 AM
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Well they say the nausea/ sickness all stops by the second trimester.
Interesting you have 9 weeks left before your due date, and I am only 9 weeks gone. Not too late to abort.
Just kidding..
Are you sure was not just you that experienced that heartburn? or a rare few, as no one I know has complained of or told me any of that and it's not in the books either, or not the one I am reading..
We are all different after all, the fact not everyone is sick and some are and have it bad during pregnancy is an example of that. I guess I've been lucky so far..
Very cute! with regard to your climbing wall for your child. Can I bring mine to share your wall? Heh!
No worries about eating and sleeping,that it is what I have been doing, though I've not felt so tired lately, more last month than this month I noticed, I was having 12 hrs sleep! Back to normal now, more like 8 max.
And when I get nauseaus mildly it is due to hunger, I eat more only for that reason. Once I eat the nausea is gone.
Carrot cake is the healthier cake. Has vegetable in it afterall.. he he 
I have had no cravings and thankfully I never did like salty food, or smoked foodstuffs. Can't stand it in fact.
I do like salt and vinegar walkers crisps however, but that is the only exception and we can't get them here.. only in the UK, they have ready salted and cheese and onion but no salt and vinegar?!
Good for you heading back to climbing soon, I'll need a babysitter, but seems I have enough offers from friends in that department already..
Thanks and "Good luck! and take care of yourself"
Remember to post us a pic of your new born in 9 weeks 
(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 10, 2009, 5:10 AM)
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lhwang
Feb 10, 2009, 5:30 AM
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Some women get nausea/morning sickness throughout their entire pregnancy.
I see lots of women who have heartburn that is worst during the third trimester.
Nothing in this post should be considered as medical advice. If you have questions, please see your midwife/doctor.
PS congrats rockie and cloud9climber.
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rockie
Feb 10, 2009, 5:40 AM
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lhwang wrote: Some women get nausea/morning sickness throughout their entire pregnancy. I see lots of women who have heartburn that is worst during the third trimester. Nothing in this post should be considered as medical advice. If you have questions, please see your midwife/doctor. PS congrats rockie and cloud9climber.
Thank you
I have a midwife, first check up is Wednesday.
I also have 2 great docs, not in this field however, but they are still great.
I'm a nurse myself, which is not the same as a midwife.
Closest to anything like that was on placement for 2 terms in Oxford working in gynaecology. I had to sit in and escort a pregnant woman who was about to be given bad news.
It was awful seeing her reaction and her husbands after she was informed her baby inside her was (not alive). I nearly cried with her.
(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 10, 2009, 5:45 AM)
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cloud9climber
Feb 10, 2009, 6:06 AM
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rockie wrote: Well they say the nausea/ sickness all stops by the second trimester. Interesting you have 9 weeks left before your due date, and I am only 9 weeks gone. Not too late to abort. Just kidding.. Are you sure was not just you that experienced that heartburn? or a rare few, as no one I know has complained of or told me any of that and it's not in the books either, or not the one I am reading.. We are all different after all, the fact not everyone is sick and some are and have it bad during pregnancy is an example of that. I guess I've been lucky so far.. Very cute! with regard to your climbing wall for your child. Can I bring mine to share your wall? Heh! No worries about eating and sleeping,that it is what I have been doing, though I've not felt so tired lately, more last month than this month I noticed, I was having 12 hrs sleep! Back to normal now, more like 8 max. And when I get nauseaus mildly it is due to hunger, I eat more only for that reason. Once I eat the nausea is gone. Carrot cake is the healthier cake. Has vegetable in it afterall.. he he I have had no cravings and thankfully I never did like salty food, or smoked foodstuffs. Can't stand it in fact. I do like salt and vinegar walkers crisps however, but that is the only exception and we can't get them here.. only in the UK, they have ready salted and cheese and onion but no salt and vinegar?! Good for you heading back to climbing soon, I'll need a babysitter, but seems I have enough offers from friends in that department already.. Thanks and "Good luck! and take care of yourself" Remember to post us a pic of your new born in 9 weeks
not 9 WEEKS - 9 DAYS! 8 days now!!! ha! and I hope to God you don't get the heartburn because it is very real.
(This post was edited by cloud9climber on Feb 10, 2009, 7:47 AM)
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cloud9climber
Feb 10, 2009, 7:49 AM
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lhwang wrote: Some women get nausea/morning sickness throughout their entire pregnancy. I see lots of women who have heartburn that is worst during the third trimester. Nothing in this post should be considered as medical advice. If you have questions, please see your midwife/doctor. PS congrats rockie and cloud9climber.
thank you!!
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robbovius
Feb 10, 2009, 2:01 PM
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clausti wrote: [it's just the people who don't really ever admit to being mad or resentful of their kids, but who at the same time will spout both "this is the hardest thing ever" and "this is the most awesomest thing ever" that kind of give me a weird vibe.
I refer you to Seb's ...
"4. Also, until you're a parent, you have absolutely no idea what it's like. "
People tend to look at human development based on the scale of Infancy to early adulthood, making off each emotional and behavioural stage in development ascneding to adulthood, What's forgotten or overlooked, is that this developpment continues well into adulthood. Parrent hood is another developmental stage in the toality of the individual human life.
a whole new set of instinctually driven emotional states and behaviours awaken that I am convinced one cannot experienced without being part of a successful breeding couple.
yup, raising kids is partly the hardest and longest ascent you'll ever make, a giant pain in teh ass some days you'll wish would just go AWAY!...
but then, they'll score some achievement, or evidence some ability that surpasses your own, or show signs of embracing their own destiny, and there's this glow of affection adn pride and...well you feel like you're going to crty and laugh and your head is going to explode you feel so happy...
it has very little to do with the mind game your describing, a sort of post traumatic stress rationalization disorder.
Until you have you're own kids, you won't ever know.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Feb 10, 2009, 2:02 PM)
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robbovius
Feb 10, 2009, 2:05 PM
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grantjk wrote: They're all pretty nice, well-adjusted kids so far, despite having me as a father,
Hey Grant, "Farley Sucks", etc,....
yeah, funny how they seem to turn out okay, in spite of ouer best efforts. ;-)
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Gmburns2000
Feb 10, 2009, 3:48 PM
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rockie wrote: clee03m wrote: I don't know why women choose to stay in relationships where they are forced to do most of the child care if they feel it is not fair. A good point. I've no idea why they marry in the first place in the above cases, do they not find out all this by first by living together prior to marriage? What else I do not understand (unrelated to this article), is some men I have met in the past who complained that they left their wives, or were no longer happy with their wives and later divorced, as they did not share the same sports in common, or they were not as active sports wise. Well again, did they not know this before they got married?? 
The simple answer to this is that people change. I changed, my ex-wife changed, we changed as a couple. We're still friends (we parted as friends) because we knew that we had taken it as far as we could. Neither was happy with the other, and yet we were so happy the first few years of our relationship.
How can you possibly know what is going to happen several years down the road? To make expectations of the future based on who you are now is foolish. Grow, accept, change - do whatever you want, just don't expect the relationships you have now will be the same forever, because people change.
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clee03m
Feb 10, 2009, 4:11 PM
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Once again, I am not arguing with you on the difficulties of parenthood. My problem is making it necessarily a gender specific issue. If my future children want to play sports, of course I would support that. That may mean giving up some weekends. But I would expect my husband to give up just as much. I have parents who are very independent with a very active social life. I used to joke around about how my parents had a better social life than me, how that is messed up. They never came to any of my soccer games or to any of my choral concerts (even all state). My mom did come to my piano competitions, but that was because concert pianist was what my mom had in mind for me when I was born. Imagine having a parent who was heart broken that her daughter decided to go into medicine! But growing up, I loved that they are happy people with the best marriage of any couple I know. I know they gave up a lot for me. I also know that they were able to have a life. I hope I am as fortunate when I have kids.
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Sebs
Feb 10, 2009, 11:35 PM
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Hi all, Sebs here,
I'd love for other parents and nonparents to pipe in on this.
I find this conversation so fascinating, I can't tell you how much. How about some SINGLE DADS???
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rockie
Feb 10, 2009, 11:36 PM
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not 9 WEEKS - 9 DAYS! 8 days now!!! ha! and I hope to God you don't get the heartburn because it is very real.
Oh sorry, my mistake.
Wow! You must be really excited now, and very ready for it all. I have not really even started, but am beginning to get prepared, at the early stages I would say. I was already taking my folic acid supplements beforehand as I take multivitamins one a day anyway and the dosage was already there.
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lhwang
Feb 10, 2009, 11:39 PM
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clee03m wrote: I am sorry, but I really didn't like your article. No matter how you put it, it was sexist. I don't know why women choose to stay in relationships where they are forced to do most of the child care if they feel it is not fair. It really bothers me that your response is wait until you are married/have a child.
I have to agree with this. It kind of seems like a cop-out to keep falling back on this statement. Of course I won't really know what it's like to be a mother until I actually do have my own kids. It's condescending though for anyone else to assume that they know what it's going to be like for me personally when I'm a mother, or that their experience as a parent is necessarily the only experience a parent can have and that I, by default, will have. You don't know my career, financial or family situation.
If anything I'd say that because of my life/work, I probably have a better inkling than most people of the issues that come up during parenthood (daycare is expensive, my kids will probably participate in organized activities... no real huge shockers there) and I've tried to anticipate those issues by making some of the decisions I've made.
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rockie
Feb 10, 2009, 11:40 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: rockie wrote: clee03m wrote: I don't know why women choose to stay in relationships where they are forced to do most of the child care if they feel it is not fair. A good point. I've no idea why they marry in the first place in the above cases, do they not find out all this by first by living together prior to marriage? What else I do not understand (unrelated to this article), is some men I have met in the past who complained that they left their wives, or were no longer happy with their wives and later divorced, as they did not share the same sports in common, or they were not as active sports wise. Well again, did they not know this before they got married?? The simple answer to this is that people change. I changed, my ex-wife changed, we changed as a couple. We're still friends (we parted as friends) because we knew that we had taken it as far as we could. Neither was happy with the other, and yet we were so happy the first few years of our relationship. How can you possibly know what is going to happen several years down the road? To make expectations of the future based on who you are now is foolish. Grow, accept, change - do whatever you want, just don't expect the relationships you have now will be the same forever, because people change.
But that is just my point.. they did not change, at least those guys I knew.
They all told me, no they never were into that in the first place.
So then..
But I know people change, and as long as you adjust to that and accept it.. and have space apart (healthy), it should be okay. A lot of patience too I should think.
(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 10, 2009, 11:42 PM)
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lhwang
Feb 10, 2009, 11:59 PM
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Robbovius did comment. Page 3.
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Sebs
Feb 11, 2009, 1:27 AM
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But would be great to get more single dads, with or without children, to pipe in.
Just a thought.
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matterunomama
Feb 11, 2009, 2:24 AM
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Sebs wrote: But would be great to get more single dads, with or without children, to pipe in. Just a thought.
Doesn't it strike you that the single Dads don't chime in because they, in general, don't have the same issues? If they need a wife, they hire out the tasks or let them go. Women feel they 'have' to be both parents
Trying not to be long winded, here are my observations, in no particular order:
*You can 'have it all', just not all at the same time.
*If kids are truly interested in the sports, fine, but I see it more as a parent status issue. Ditto with music, ballet, etc. Not that many students get an athletic scholarship. Mine made movies, wandered in the woods, formed terrible bands, read, wrote, rock climbed, learned to cook. If they needed to go someplace they rode their bikes or even took a taxi or cadged a ride. They grew up fine, went to good schools, work hard and love their current lives.
*The household tasks tasks are rarely exactly divided. You end up either dividing then up by preference, ability, or willingness--especially after kids. Or you spend a lot of time constantly complaining and renogtiating. However, your time is not more or less valuable than your partners.
*Do not believe "parenting is incompatible with X". I found that having an infant and a toddler was sometime incompatible with taking a shower before afternoon. On the other hand I skiied pregnant, hiked in the alps with a baby, travelled in Asia with two under 4,( including feeding them street food in Bangkok), went to medical school in my mid forties, and had them do their own laundry from 10 years old. I am not a high energy person. I would rather read than chase the dust balls.
*I love being a mother; its an integral part of who I have become, but my self worth is not dependent on them. They are them, I am me. If/when I gave up anything for them it was because I wanted to-and when it wasn't necessary they accepted I had something else to do/get back to.The reverse as well (as in "I'm fine mom...you need to get your own life") Life is long, it goes back to the first * (you can have it all, just not all at the same time)
...and obviously I am not very good at trying not to be long winded! Sorry.
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xgretax
Feb 11, 2009, 5:08 AM
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*You can 'have it all', just not all at the same time.
honestly, i think that has been the most difficult thing for me to accept. before child, i only really had to look out for myself...and if i wanted to do something i could pretty much do it. now, well, i can still do it. i just can't always do it when i want to.
i also believe that the division of labor is destined to be somewhat unequal. i'm not sexist, 50/50 just isn't possible all of the time in my life. for example, mike does most of the cooking and i do most of the cleaning.
i'm glad that i finally read your article, sebs; thanks for writing it. with all the crap that has gone down lately, i think i was kind of lost in feeling sorry for myself and thinking that my spouse was a misogynist jerk. but really, we've both had to push our passions to the side to parent the way we believe we should and to work the shitty jobs we need to. yeah, i don't get to climb or hug trees when i feel the urge, but he doesn't get to sleep all day or create art either. parenthood is hard, but we're learning to adjust. each day gets better all around.
(This post was edited by xgretax on Feb 11, 2009, 5:14 AM)
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lena_chita
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Feb 11, 2009, 12:39 PM
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lhwang wrote: clee03m wrote: I am sorry, but I really didn't like your article. No matter how you put it, it was sexist. I don't know why women choose to stay in relationships where they are forced to do most of the child care if they feel it is not fair. It really bothers me that your response is wait until you are married/have a child.I have to agree with this. It kind of seems like a cop-out to keep falling back on this statement. Of course I won't really know what it's like to be a mother until I actually do have my own kids. It's condescending though for anyone else to assume that they know what it's going to be like for me personally when I'm a mother, or that their experience as a parent is necessarily the only experience a parent can have and that I, by default, will have. You don't know my career, financial or family situation.
I think this is why people keep saying "wait until you have children": it isn't that they (or I) KNOW what it would be like for you to be parent. It is that we know that it would be different than what you envision now, no matter how prepared you are, b/c the children you are going to have are a big unknown.
And as to clee03's question as to why women choose to stay in relationships that are not "fair"-- well, it isn't black and white. Are you 100% absolutely happy with your husband 100% of the time? No. Do you argue? Do you fight about you spending too much time climbing? About other things? Yes. So, why don't you leave your husband and find a husband that is 100% supportive of your climbing 100% of the time? Why stay in "less than perfect" relationship? Well, first of all b/c such ideal husband may not exist anywhere. And secondly, there is more to M. than just his agreeing or disagreeing with your climbing. There are things about him as a person that you really like (as well as things that you dislike, probably), and if you were to tally everything up, you will probably find a positive balance, right? AND, there is such thing as love. It is no different in other relationships. A woman might be complaining to her girlfriends about unfairness of her husband never doing laundry, or bitching about the fact that he forgot to mail the important letter and was an hour late dropping off the kid at a friend's birthday party, but beyond the immediate irritation with the husband there is that over-all positive balance that makes the relationship "worth it".
lhwang wrote: If anything I'd say that because of my life/work, I probably have a better inkling than most people of the issues that come up during parenthood (daycare is expensive, my kids will probably participate in organized activities... no real huge shockers there) and I've tried to anticipate those issues by making some of the decisions I've made.
Given that you are a thoughtful and smart person, and that you weigh your decisions and plan things carefully, I would bet anything that you will be more prepared for parenthood than many women. Nobody is discounting that.
But don't you find it strange that EVERY parent who posted on this thread has said "you just don't know what it is like, just wait until you have children"? Do you think all of us were less well prepared? Do you think we went into it less thoughtfully than you would? WHY do you think everyone is falling back to this 'cop-out statement'?
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Sebs
Feb 11, 2009, 1:01 PM
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Hi Matterunomama,
Yes, I appreciated your comments when you wrote in your post, "Doesn't it strike you that the single Dads don't chime in because they, in general, don't have the same issues? If they need a wife, they hire out the tasks or let them go. Women feel they 'have' to be both parents."
However, I would add that it's not always because women "feel" they have to be both parents...sometimes they have to. Hiring out the task might not be possible for a variety of reasons, and letting the task go might also not be possible or palatable. So you're left doing it yourself.
The sports activities are sometimes more for the parents but not always. Lots of the happy, well adjusted children who are close to their families and thriving tend to be the ones who are active in various activities and not just sports. There are exceptions but this tends to be a pretty good rule, at least in my community.
Very different, I agree, as when we were growing up. Kids just went off for their afternoon and their parents often had no idea where they were... it was fine as long as they weren't late for dinner!
That's how I was brought up too. But it's a different world nowadays. This is a constant topic conversation among parents (particularly moms, climbers or non-climbers).
I also appreciated your response because my children are in elementary school. I realize that the balancing act changes as the children grow older - sometimes easier, sometimes harder, but different. So I love the perspective of a mom with older children. And I must say, you sound like an incredible woman! Raising children, med school in your forties, interesting travel. Your children are lucky to have a mom like you.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 11, 2009, 2:11 PM
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lena_chita wrote: And as to clee03's question as to why women choose to stay in relationships that are not "fair"-- well, it isn't black and white. Are you 100% absolutely happy with your husband 100% of the time? No. Do you argue? Do you fight about you spending too much time climbing? About other things? Yes. So, why don't you leave your husband and find a husband that is 100% supportive of your climbing 100% of the time? Why stay in "less than perfect" relationship? Well, first of all b/c such ideal husband may not exist anywhere. And secondly, there is more to M. than just his agreeing or disagreeing with your climbing. There are things about him as a person that you really like (as well as things that you dislike, probably), and if you were to tally everything up, you will probably find a positive balance, right? AND, there is such thing as love. It is no different in other relationships. A woman might be complaining to her girlfriends about unfairness of her husband never doing laundry, or bitching about the fact that he forgot to mail the important letter and was an hour late dropping off the kid at a friend's birthday party, but beyond the immediate irritation with the husband there is that over-all positive balance that makes the relationship "worth it".
One of my favorite positions on life can be summed up by this: we admire people for their accomplishments, but we love them for thier flaws.
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lhwang
Feb 11, 2009, 3:17 PM
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I think the main thing that I can't imagine right now is the level of my emotional response to having a kid. I know that I can't even begin to comprehend the strength of that attachment, and how that is going to change my priorities. (It's one of my favourite parts of my job though... seeing the look on a new mom's face when I give her baby to her to hold for the first time).
In terms of other people being equally prepared... well, to be honest, no, I don't think most people are in my situation which is why I balk when I feel like people are telling me "You might expect to be able to climb once you have kids, but once you actually do become a mom, you'll know better."
Back to clee03m's question. There's no 100% perfect person out there, but everyone has their dealbreakers. It would have been a dealbreaker for me if my husband had viewed housework/childrearing as a woman's affair.
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