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reno
Sep 22, 2007, 1:22 AM
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Sean, did you forget to take your medication?
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baja_java
Sep 22, 2007, 2:01 AM
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i will never change! i will never stop taking my Flintstones vitamins!!
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moose_droppings
Sep 22, 2007, 3:26 AM
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jt512 wrote: With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor.
jt512 wrote: So, for the most part, all tick marks do is tell you where other people have been putting their feet. This gives you nothing more than clues. Those feet might or might not work for you.
Maybe a favor? Maybe not?
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Sep 22, 2007, 3:27 AM)
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paintrain
Sep 22, 2007, 2:53 PM
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Recap of thread.
Angry - Tickmarks on high alpine trad routes aren't cool.
Most everyone else - Yes uncool.
Jay - You don't understand tickmarks on hard climbs on gridbolted sport parks cause you don't climb hard. Other hard climbers like me know.
Most everyone else - We understand just fine. It is an excuse not to develop your mental skills and fitness by using ticks as aid. Keep tickmarks in the sport crag/dog park not on alpine climbs.
Jay, I have onsited 5.12 without tickmarks and I know quite a few folks who have as well. They climb quite hard without them as well as with. They are not necessary. It just requires fitness, strength and a little concentration. Tickmarks are just compensation for failings in climbing technique. It is just laziness (ie. an excuse not to use your brain).
If you want marks on everything and all you care about is numbers, stay in the gym. No one cares there.
Put this to bed. The train master won't admit it is a failing of technique (train your brain) and we don't get it because we haven't redpointed a 5.12 proj in 4 burns this week . Someone put a tickmark on Jay's dog so he can find it.
PT
Edited to be a little nicer
(This post was edited by paintrain on Sep 22, 2007, 8:11 PM)
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fracture
Sep 22, 2007, 4:41 PM
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Valarc wrote: jt512 wrote: With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. If all high-end sport climbers enjoy tickmarks and aren't interested in the mental challenge of figuring out a sequence for themselves, I hope like hell I stay a gumby my whole life.
Every gym climb has the holds completely visible. Yet climbing indoors still involves figuring out sequences...
In reply to: The mental challenge is the single most motivating aspect of climbing to me. I was never a person who loved being active for the sake of movement - I would never be a runner because running is boring, and I only hike because I thoroughly enjoy being outdoors, especially with my dogs.
I have the same reaction to running that you do: way boring. However, I don't think this means there is no mental challenge. For me, that is the mental challenge. I still don't run, though, because although forcing myself to be bored may be very challenging, it is certainly not very fun.
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fracture
Sep 22, 2007, 4:48 PM
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jt512 wrote: So, for the most part, all tick marks do is tell you where other people have been putting their feet.
Also, on some types of rock, you will often already have this information due to shoe rubber and polish on the popular footholds.
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fracture
Sep 22, 2007, 4:52 PM
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paintrain wrote: Recap of thread. Angry - Tickmarks on high alpine trad routes aren't cool.
Angry - "don't tick a route you can't or won't clean"
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jt512
Sep 22, 2007, 7:29 PM
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paintrain wrote: Recap of thread. Angry - Tickmarks on high alpine trad routes aren't cool. Most everyone else - Yes uncool. Jay - You don't understand tickmarks on hard climbs on gridbolted sport parks cause you don't climb hard. Other hard climbers like me know. Most everyone else - We understand just fine. It is an excuse not to develop your mental skills and fitness by using aids. Keep it in you trash strewn, sport crag/dog park not on alpine climbs. Jay - nuh uh. When you climb 5.12 at your limit then you'll get it. I am not wrong, everyone else is wrong. Jay, I have onsited 5.12 without tickmarks and I know quite a few folks who have as well. They are not necessary. It just requires fitness, strength and a little concentration. Tickmarks are just compensation for failings in your climbing technique. Put this to bed. Jay can't use his brain and we all suck because we can climb without tickmarks. Someone put a tickmark on Jay's dog so he can find it. PT
I didn't say tick marks were necessary, Asshat; only useful. What exactly is the point of arguing against a position you have intentionally misrepresented, except to make yourself look deceitful.
Jay
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paintrain
Sep 22, 2007, 8:38 PM
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Jay.
Note: I am the one who said they are not necessary (It was a rhetorical point). I can represent my own opinion all day long as I find it hard to misrepresent myself.
Tell me where I got it wrong (and we all know you will)
1. You like tickmarks - we got it.
2. You have claimed that folks don't understand who aren't climbing as hard as you.
3. Most of us don't like them on alpine roots.
BTW, love the name Asshat. I will have to remember that one (as I have trained myself to remember where footholds are, it shouldn't be a problem).
It is a little hard to be deceitful after 12 pages of this. and I am not going to melt this into a quote war. It gets just as stale as this thread. The fork was stuck in it about 6 pages ago.
Please go enjoy a tickmarked 5.12 proj at your local crag and I will go enjoy an alpine climb without tickmarks.
PT
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jt512
Sep 22, 2007, 8:53 PM
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paintrain wrote: Jay. Note: I am the one who said they are not necessary (It was a rhetorical point). I can represent my own opinion all day long as I find it hard to misrepresent myself.
Well, I never said nor implied that tick marks are necessary. So what was the point of your post: to show how you and I are in complete agreement about tick marks?
Can't take credit for "Asshat," but when it fits, it sure fits.
Jay
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stymingersfink
Sep 22, 2007, 9:20 PM
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jt512 wrote: paintrain wrote: Recap of thread. Angry - Tickmarks on high alpine trad routes aren't cool. Most everyone else - Yes uncool. Jay - You don't understand tickmarks on hard climbs on gridbolted sport parks cause you don't climb hard. Other hard climbers like me know. Most everyone else - We understand just fine. It is an excuse not to develop your mental skills and fitness by using aids. Keep it in you trash strewn, sport crag/dog park not on alpine climbs. Jay - nuh uh. When you climb 5.12 at your limit then you'll get it. I am not wrong, everyone else is wrong. Jay, I have onsited 5.12 without tickmarks and I know quite a few folks who have as well. They are not necessary. It just requires fitness, strength and a little concentration. Tickmarks are just compensation for failings in your climbing technique. Put this to bed. Jay can't use his brain and we all suck because we can climb without tickmarks. Someone put a tickmark on Jay's dog so he can find it. PT
paraphrasing_Jay wrote: except when they're not.
or did we forget that part already?
Pick up your trash, pack it the whole two minutes back to your car, dispose of it at home. Is it so wrong of us to expect a 'tick'-er to clean up the trash he leaves behind on the rock?
We think not. (The "We" in this case being the 'royal' "We", meaning everybody here except jt.) Clean the shit up. If you're sooo lazy that you've got to rely on the tick-work of others in order to "send" the "proj" in two less burns than it may have taken otherwise, perhaps another sport might be more up your alley. (Might I suggest weight-lifting? Those guys seem to be in pretty good shape. Dumb as a box of rocks perhaps, but regardless, staying healthy.)
If you want the "send" "honestly", and require ticks to do so, at least make your own ticks and clean them up when finished. Don't rely upon the work of others.
Geesh.
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k.l.k
Oct 16, 2007, 3:24 PM
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angry wrote: Many many times I've come out against tick marks. Everyone says that it's fine as long as they get brushed off. Not a bad arguement except that no-one ever brushes them off. In my life, I've never seen a tick mark brushed off by someone who placed one. My latest example, Pervertical Sanctuary 10c, Longs Peak. It's got more ticks than the Black Canyon in the spring. Not a chalky hold mind you, a big thick tick on every single nub or edge. Ticked like a gym climb. This is on a 10c (possibly up to 11a depending on who you ask) that doesn't have a hidden or devious move anywhere on it. I'm relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week. Fine, tick the route to keep your career alive (god knows your husband's is in the toilet) but rap the fucking thing and clean up your mess. You are a pro climber, you've got nothing but time. It's not like you don't have the extra half day to tidy up. If it's not you, sorry. Doesn't change my point, don't tick a route you can't or won't clean.
This may be on point:
www.alpinist.com/doc/web07f/newswire-solo-diamond-steph-davis
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cracklover
Oct 16, 2007, 7:17 PM
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k.l.k wrote: angry wrote: Many many times I've come out against tick marks. Everyone says that it's fine as long as they get brushed off. Not a bad arguement except that no-one ever brushes them off. In my life, I've never seen a tick mark brushed off by someone who placed one. My latest example, Pervertical Sanctuary 10c, Longs Peak. It's got more ticks than the Black Canyon in the spring. Not a chalky hold mind you, a big thick tick on every single nub or edge. Ticked like a gym climb. This is on a 10c (possibly up to 11a depending on who you ask) that doesn't have a hidden or devious move anywhere on it. I'm relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week. Fine, tick the route to keep your career alive (god knows your husband's is in the toilet) but rap the fucking thing and clean up your mess. You are a pro climber, you've got nothing but time. It's not like you don't have the extra half day to tidy up. If it's not you, sorry. Doesn't change my point, don't tick a route you can't or won't clean. This may be on point: www.alpinist.com/doc/web07f/newswire-solo-diamond-steph-davis
How so? Did I miss her saying anything about ticking holds? Everything seemed a direct quote from her blog (which is kind of what started this in the first place).
GO
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stymingersfink
Oct 16, 2007, 10:07 PM
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fixed that
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NSFW
Oct 17, 2007, 1:53 AM
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I just farted
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k.l.k
Oct 17, 2007, 3:56 PM
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Cracklover-- Yeah, I hated to bump this thread yet again, but I actually was rather struck by the way that reportage of the solo actually appeared in what is arguably the best English-language climbing journal. I guess I've always understood that journals tend to cut-and-paste the PR puffs sent them by their buddies, and big chunks of many gear reviews have long been partly written by the manufacturers themselves. But having read Angry's account of his experience on PV, and the slew of tickmarks left (he suggested) by SD, I found that this particular sentence, took on new meanings:
"I'm so lucky I had the experience of a troublesome fear feeling on my first solo of the Casual Route," Davis said, "because it forced me to look hard at that feeling, and to dissect it... I realized that to do a more serious solo, I need[ed] to focus all the way on my mental state. I need[ed] to believe in myself completely."
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angry
Oct 17, 2007, 4:28 PM
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What I find astonishing is that this made the news. Not the ticks, but the climb itself.
It's easier than plenty of stuff I've soloed myself. I'd do it but I've sortof lost that soloing bug. Geez, a couple summers ago I onsight free-soloed the Casual Route, did all the 9's and 10's on McCurdy Tower onsight, did 15 pitches solo on multiple occasions on Turkey Rocks, soloed almost every 9 and 10 on the Nautilus of Vedauwoo (in approach shoes).
Steph Davis is approximately 100 times the climber I am. Why is stuff that I'd do on a partner-less just for fun newsworthy?
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nodecaf
Oct 17, 2007, 5:45 PM
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angry wrote: Steph Davis is approximately 100 times the climber I am. Why is stuff that I'd do on a partner-less just for fun newsworthy?
Because her income depends on her "selling" her climbing. When was the last time you sent a press release talking about one of your climbs?
It's all self-promotion, my man.
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microbarn
Oct 17, 2007, 5:49 PM
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nodecaf wrote: angry wrote: Steph Davis is approximately 100 times the climber I am. Why is stuff that I'd do on a partner-less just for fun newsworthy? Because her income depends on her "selling" her climbing. When was the last time you sent a press release talking about one of your climbs? It's all self-promotion, my man.
I made three press releases of my gym climbs last night. I finally sent the light blue route. I lead the pink with squiggles, purple and green. Finally, I worked out all of the sequences on the dark green. I really think the dark green will go next time I am in the gym.
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caughtinside
Oct 17, 2007, 5:51 PM
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angry wrote: What I find astonishing is that this made the news. Not the ticks, but the climb itself. It's easier than plenty of stuff I've soloed myself. I'd do it but I've sortof lost that soloing bug. Geez, a couple summers ago I onsight free-soloed the Casual Route, did all the 9's and 10's on McCurdy Tower onsight, did 15 pitches solo on multiple occasions on Turkey Rocks, soloed almost every 9 and 10 on the Nautilus of Vedauwoo (in approach shoes). Steph Davis is approximately 100 times the climber I am. Why is stuff that I'd do on a partner-less just for fun newsworthy?
it is interesting. Obviously, it's worth posting on your blog, but alpinist? I respect the accomplishment but also don't really think it's newsworthy. Sure, it is at altitude which makes it tougher, but most of the pitches are sub 5.10.
http://www.mountainproject.com/...ase=pervertical&
Again, it's pretty sweet, but not really unique or noteworthy. There are lots of strong climbers out there...
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nodecaf
Oct 17, 2007, 6:00 PM
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microbarn wrote: I made three press releases of my gym climbs last night. I finally sent the light blue route. I lead the pink with squiggles, purple and green. Finally, I worked out all of the sequences on the dark green. I really think the dark green will go next time I am in the gym.
Dude!!! Did you feel more in touch with nature and the rock... er, I mean plastic... without a rope? 'Cause I really hate to have artificial contrivances such as ropes get between me and my communion with nature... um, I mean bolted-on holds.
When will you release your video?
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jt512
Nov 1, 2007, 10:09 PM
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Johnny_Fang wrote: Wait--I just saw a video of Sharma and maybe Jay is right. Maybe all the high end dudes DO like tickmarks, and especially like leaving them up for others. Especially important is the last minute of the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH9O4l5_L58
I don't know how long this link will be live for, but at 2:40 into the video, we see Chris Sharma putting a tick mark on a foothold on a 5.12d route he's just fallen while toproping.
http://www.npr.org/...deo&mediaType=RM
Jay
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jt512
Nov 1, 2007, 10:35 PM
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Good video, which demonstrates a number of bad habits, according to knowledgeable rc.com users: pre-clipped first bolt; project draws left hanging; 3-inch tick marks on hand holds; clipping overhead instead of at the waist; flashy, but otherwise useless dynos. An invalid, unethical ascent for so many reasons.
Jay
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